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Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.04.23 20:34:00 - [31] Originally by: Amarraz Just because I wait to salvage the wreck doesn't mean I should forfeit my rights to it Yes you do. You gain the rights to the salvage when you activate the salvager. If you let someone else do that before you, you've forfeited the rights to that salvage. Quote: allowing game mechanics that essentially state I do not own a wreck I have created is simply nonsense. Why? You're already getting compensated for creating that wreck. Why should you suddenly get even more without any additional effort? Quote: Again, if it were limited to low sec, I would be an ardent defender of ninja salvaging. But in high sec? What difference does it make if it's highsec? Highsec doesn't mean you're exempt from PvP, you knowà Quote: If the EVE developers are really saying that the wreck doesn't belong to the person who created it, then why make a distinction between the loot it carries and the logic boards, etc? Because it's that distinction that lets them say that. The carrier and the mechanics for obtaining loot and salvage are completely different. Because the two are part of different reward mechanics for different activities and different professions. Just because you can do both at once doesn't mean they're one and the same. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2011.04.23 20:35:00 - [32] Originally by: Amarraz Well, there are a number of flaws in your logic here. Let's take your third item: "If you wanted the wreck yourself, you would have salvaged it before the tow truck came along." You claim it's bad game design, yet you bring RL comparisons. Stop doing that. It's about game risk vs. reward balance Originally by: Amarraz Just because I wait to salvage the wreck doesn't mean I should forfeit my rights to it, a fact recognized by the designers of EVE when they introduced the Noctis. And whatever the designers of EVE intend, allowing game mechanics that essentially state I do not own a wreck I have created is simply nonsense. Tippia said it before, but since you can't seem to get it in your head: wrecks and salvage were introduced later than the actual lvl 4 missions. So instead of giving missions runners even more reward on top of the already inflated rewards, CCP created a mini profession, which you (and anyone else) can do during or after the mission: salvaging wrecks. And to make the profession viable, salvaging does not give the salvager an agression timer. Just TRY to get it in your head: salvage = not part of your mission reward. You can use a marauder during the mission ir a noctis afterwards. And don't forget: you already have ahuge advantage over other salvagers. You can tractor all those wrecks. They can't.
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2011.04.23 20:36:00 - [33] Originally by: Tippia Herp derp I just explained it to you.You read what I wrote and think it over and don't give me that technical limitation crap lol.This topic comes up every few months and creates pages of discussion but no,it's not bad game design right? And pvp-centric does not mean sandbox,google is your friend. As far as me having read anything you said..it's not worth it because you're not out for a discussion but instead to beat your one sided opinion into someones head with lame excuses which always seem to favor ccp.Hence you're a fanboy and a complete waste of time.
Paija	Posted - 2011.04.23 20:38:00 - [34] Originally by: Kranwe Sentai I suppose if you bought the plane just to shoot it down, then the wreck would be yours. This.
I'thari Minmatar	Posted - 2011.04.23 20:40:00 - [35] Originally by: Kranwe Sentai I suppose I could go about it like this: You shoot down an airplane, since it is full of bad guys. The plane doesn't belong to you, it fell down and crashed and a bunch of people heard it and ran up to it collecting souverniers etc. The bad guys inside are dead and you can go take out their gold fillings what not. Anyone else messing with your bad guys is stealing what you wanted. Well, technicly it should still be a property of bad guys so even if you shot down the plane you still stealing from organisation they belonged to... but that's the "correct" logic OP was referring to, I suppose.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.04.23 20:40:00 - [36] Edited by: Tippia on 23/04/2011 20:43:05 Originally by: HeIIfire11 don't give me that technical limitation crap Why not? The scanning mechanics are causing them technical headaches as it is. Quote: This topic comes up every few months and creates pages of discussion but no,it's not bad game design right? No. People making baseless assumptions about reward structures because they haven't taken the time to educate themselves is not bad game design. In fact, I'd rather say it would be bad game design if people were given rewards without doing anything to earn themà and yet, that's exactly what the OP is asking for. Why should that happen? Quote: And pvp-centric does not mean sandbox No, but multiplayer sandbox means PvP (or a very limited sandboxà but fortunately, EVE doesn't have that huge restriction). Quote: As far as me having read anything you said..it's not worth it Then you have no basis for anything you say about me. So not only are you using ad hominems, you're also making an argument from ignorance. Guess what? Neither improves your caseà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Triskie Caldari Dead Cat Explorations	Posted - 2011.04.23 20:53:00 - [37] Edited by: Triskie on 23/04/2011 20:53:56 After these couple years these threads are still popping up. I started out in eve salvaging when it was in its hay day and the wrecks and loot were actually worth something. Now a year and a bit later i mission a few level 4's myself and ignore the wrecks. That and the loot are just junk to be ignored in the pursuit of fast LP. Yet despite the wrecks lack of value, the logical augments from all the other posts in all of the threads of this kind over the years, and the developer comments in favour of the salvager's there still seems to be a few that just cant come to terms with it. Do an eve-search and you will see this is one debate that has been done to death many times before and all coming to the same conclusion. The wreck is not yours and no amount of forum tantrums will changes that fact.
Renarla	Posted - 2011.04.23 20:54:00 - [38] Originally by: Feligast Hooray, this thread again!! My thoughts exactly.
Khanya Trace	Posted - 2011.04.23 20:57:00 - [39] if they change it you people will just cry that you lost your shiny mission ship to the salvager you just shot at because his ship looked small.
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:00:00 - [40] Originally by: HeIIfire11 I just explained it to you.You read what I wrote and think it over and don't give me that technical limitation crap lol.This topic comes up every few months and creates pages of discussion but no,it's not bad game design right? Confirming that: pages of discussion about a certain topic = bad game design. And on that topic: the mechanic does exactly what was intended by the developers. It may be a game design descission some people do not agree with, but certainly not "bad game design". Originally by: HeIIfire11 And pvp-centric does not mean sandbox,google is your friend. "pvp-centric" does not mean no single player content, either, as you claimed. You're just noweher safe from (maybe) malicious player interaction. Originally by: HeIIfire11 As far as me having read anything you said..it's not worth it because you're not out for a discussion but instead to beat your one sided opinion into someones head with lame excuses which always seem to favor ccp.Hence you're a fanboy and a complete waste of time. Bold words for a troll.

HeIIfire11	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:06:00 - [41] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: HeIIfire11 don't give me that technical limitation crap Why not? The scanning mechanics are causing them technical headaches as it is. That's not the players problem..just the cause of bad game design. Originally by: Tippia Originally by: HeIIfire11 This topic comes up every few months and creates pages of discussion but no,it's not bad game design right? No. People making baseless assumptions about reward structures because they haven't taken the time to educate themselves is not bad game design. In fact, I'd rather say it would be bad game design if people were given rewards without doing anything to earn themà and yet, that's exactly what the OP is asking for. Why should that happen? You are making baseless assumptions about reward structures by saying people are given rewards without doing anything to earn them.Others might say doing the mission which creates the wreck is enough to earn them.Opinions are like *****s..everyone has one and thats all you're bringing to the table..your opinion.Doesn't make it a fact.Why should they do even more to earn the salvage? Originally by:** Tippia Originally by: HeIIfire11 And pvp-centric does not mean sandbox No, but multiplayer sandbox means PvP (or a very limited sandboxà but fortunately, EVE doesn't have that huge restriction). Who said anything about "multiplayer sandbox"?Eve calls itself a sandbox..not multiplayer sandbox.A sandbox that includes pvp but is not limited to only pvp.Again your opinion based on what aspect of the game you choose to accept. In my opinion my case looks pretty good because you have nothing more than I do at this point..an opinon.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:19:00 - [42] Originally by: HeIIfire11 That's not the players problem..just the cause of bad game design. So you're saying that not being able to cram 30,000 people into Jita is bad game design? And speaking of which: what bad game design does this technical limitation cause? Quote: You are making baseless assumptions about reward structures by saying people are given rewards without doing anything to earn them. No. I'm simply restating what has been said about the reward structure of missions. There is no assumption there. Quote: Others might say doing the mission which creates the wreck is enough to earn them. àand they contradict the stated design purpose. Quote: Why should they do even more to earn the salvage? Because otherwise it might as well be removed from the game. If they don't want to engage in the activity that earns them salvage, that activity serves no purpose. Salvage was added for a reason. Padding mission-runners wallets is not it. Quote: Who said anything about "multiplayer sandbox"?Eve calls itself a sandbox..not multiplayer sandbox. CCP did. They were the ones who classified the game as an MMO. You might want to look up what that second "M" stands forà Quote: A sandbox that includes pvp but is not limited to only pvp. Actually, there's only two things you can do that isn't subject to PvP. So yes, it's pretty much limited to only PvP. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Keylah Caldari	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:19:00 - [43] This topic has been discussed to death before. I don't care for the ninjas either, CCP won't do anything about it, so there's no point in griping about it here. Ninjas are like real life tax evaders, disgusting bottom-feeders. Solution: Shoot the wrecks if you see a ninja, preferably the wrecks he is going for. Problem solved. If you won't shoot the wrecks for some reason(and don't say: But ammo costs isk!) then you have no right to complain. Eventually, most of them will stop entering your missions as it's a waste of time. Though some will come just in spite to annoy you. Worked well for me while I still did missions(can't be arsed to do them now days). If this solution doesn't work for you, I respectfully suggest another line of income or another game. If you are waiting for CCP to take action against the ninjas, I'm afraid you'll be waiting until the sun explodes -Key
Kiandoshia	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:26:00 - [44] Originally by: Amarraz (we all know salvaging is where the real mission money is) No.
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:29:00 - [45] I can't be alone in being utterly indifferent to salvaging wrecks can I. Whenever I used to mission run I'd pretty much just blitz missions and leave the loot/wrecks behind. I only once had a ninja trying to goad me about stealing my stuffs and when I said feel free to take what you like apparently that was me crying sweet sweet tears. Heh.
Kerfira Kerfira Corp	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:30:00 - [46] It is always funny when people complain over the rules of a game because they happen to go against them once in a while... Imagine this was a football match, and one of the players start throwing a hissy fit because the goalkeeper is allowed to use his hands, but he is not. He'd be laughed off the field This is EXACTLY the same situation as here, where people like the OP and HeIIfire11 (etc.) simply can't comprehend that the game they're playing has rules that go against them... It can't be THEM there's something wrong with, so naturally it must be the game In a way it is pretty sad that some people are so limited and unable to accept that sometimes everything is not like they want it to be... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Nika Dekaia	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:42:00 - [47] Originally by: Kerfira It is always funny when people complain over the rules of a game because they happen to go against them once in a while... Imagine this was a football match, and one of the players start throwing a hissy fit because the goalkeeper is allowed to use his hands, but he is not. He'd be laughed off the field This is EXACTLY the same situation as here, where people like the OP and HeIIfire11 (etc.) simply can't comprehend that the game they're playing has rules that go against them... It can't be THEM there's something wrong with, so naturally it must be the game In a way it is pretty sad that some people are so limited and unable to accept that sometimes everything is not like they want it to be... Yeah, if it was a soccer game, they would be sent off with a red card for complaining about the rules/referee descission. But since it's a internet forum, we'll just have some fun arguing (on that topic again) and they'll have some fun trolling. And even if there is someone really not getting it without beeing a troll: the mechanic won't change. Ever.
Karak Terrel As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:44:00 - [48] Let's say for the sake of argument, salvaging is stealing. Now what changes that? You could shoot the salvager now, so would you actually do that? You would really engage another player in your probably expensive PvE fit? Now here is the thing, it would change nothing, except you would loose some of your ships to those "salvagers". Now in eve there are no instances, there is no save space and it is an MMO where people will try to annoy you. You can't just ignore the MMO part of the game you have no right for not getting annoyed by other players. There is only one way, adopt to it! It's worth it! Instead of petitions and forum whining use the power of the sandbox to wipe the floor with some ninja-salvager asses! There are ways to do that but i have to warn you, it's not boring like lvl4 missions -- please consider to visit our w-space system, cake will be served immediately.
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:45:00 - [49] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: HeIIfire11 That's not the players problem..just the cause of bad game design. So you're saying that not being able to cram 30,000 people into Jita is bad game design? And speaking of which: what bad game design does this technical limitation cause? What are you talking about?Stay on the topic please and don't compare this to something it has nothing at all to do with.Cramming 30,000 people in one system and changing a color and status of a wreck when looted is two complete different things. Originally by: Tippia Originally by: HeIIfire11 You are making baseless assumptions about reward structures by saying people are given rewards without doing anything to earn them. No. I'm simply restating what has been said about the reward structure of missions. There is no assumption there. Without a quote what you say is worthless..a lot has been said.Show me where ccp explains exactly this.If you do pull that one from somewhere it will just prove my point about it being bad game design because the wreck is still yellow to the person salvaging it.Also that player gets concorded when he shoots my yellow empty wreck that "isn't mine". Originally by: Tippia Originally by: HeIIfire11 Others might say doing the mission which creates the wreck is enough to earn them. àand they contradict the stated design purpose. Again without quote your statement is worthless.Stated where?Quote or it didn't happen. Originally by: Tippia Originally by: HeIIfire11 Why should they do even more to earn the salvage? Because otherwise it might as well be removed from the game. If they don't want to engage in the activity that earns them salvage, that activity serves no purpose. What you don't understand is that the problem people have with this is that its risk free for the salvager.All that's being asked is that he is flagged so that we can do what you say this game is all about..pvp.If a mission runner wants the salvage he has to kill the rat,what risk does the salvager have?None.No risk..no danger.Bad game design. Originally by: Tippia Salvage was added for a reason. Padding mission-runners wallets is not it. Again..quote what reason.I doubt it's padding a risk free griefers wallet either.
Karak Terrel As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:56:00 - [50] Originally by: HeIIfire11 Originally by: Karak Terrel Let's say for the sake of argument, salvaging is stealing. Now what changes that? You could shoot the salvager now, so would you actually do that? You would really engage another player in your probably expensive PvE fit? Now here is the thing, it would change nothing, except you would loose some of your ships to those "salvagers". Your opinion..just because you fail at the game doesn't mean everyone does. That Teenrage.. -- please consider to visit our w-space system, cake will be served immediately.

HeIIfire11	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:58:00 - [51] Originally by: Karak Terrel That Teenrage.. No it's a fact.If I choose to cloak an alt or two in t3 cruisers to wait for the scum it wont be my expensive ship that dies now will it.Sadly we will never know due to bad game design.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.04.23 21:58:00 - [52] Originally by: HeIIfire11 What are you talking about? You're claiming that technical limitations are bad game design. I'm asking you how. Quote: Without a quote what you say is worthless. The quote has already been posted CCP Prism X ôit's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding [sic] any further.ö Quote: If you do pull that one from somewhere it will just prove my point about it being bad game design Why is it bad game design that you have to earn your rewards? Quote: What you don't understand is that the problem people have with this is that its risk free for the salvager. Yes? It's risk free for both parties aside from the fact that it's a competition. You risk being too slow. You stand to gain some salvage. Quote: All that's being asked is that he is flagged so that we can do what you say this game is all about..pvp. It's already about PvP. And again, if it's flagged, the mission runner has been given ownership over stuff without having earned it yet. Why should that happen? Quote: If a mission runner wants the salvage he has to kill the rat No. If the mission runner wants the salvage, he has to scoot over to the wreck and/or pull it closer with tractor beams, and then he has to activate his salvager. In short, he has to do something completely different than be a mission runner: he has to be a salvager. Quote: what risk does the salvager have? None. It's the same risk for both competitors, yes: that they might not be fast enough to win the prize. Quote: I doubt it's padding a risk free griefers wallet either. Who's griefing? It's there to pad salvagers' wallets. And guess what: it does exactly that. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Karak Terrel As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions	Posted - 2011.04.23 22:06:00 - [53] Originally by: HeIIfire11 Originally by: Karak Terrel That Teenrage.. No it's a fact.If I choose to cloak an alt or two in t3 cruisers to wait for the scum it wont be my expensive ship that dies now will it.Sadly we will never know due to bad game design. Good for you, maybe that works two times and then they come only to bait and kill this t3.. very smart.. and it's still Teenrage -- please consider to visit our w-space system, cake will be served immediately.
Keylah Caldari	Posted - 2011.04.23 22:18:00 - [54] Originally by: Karak Terrel Originally by: HeIIfire11 Originally by: Karak Terrel That Teenrage.. No it's a fact.If I choose to cloak an alt or two in t3 cruisers to wait for the scum it wont be my expensive ship that dies now will it.Sadly we will never know due to bad game design. Good for you, maybe that works two times and then they come only to bait and kill this t3.. very smart.. and it's still Teenrage Heh, well at least no one would complain about ninja salvaging then, but I'm sure the forums would be ablaze with ninja gank threads. Anyways, it's pointless to discuss this further, the mission runners already have the tool to stop ninjas, ie blow up the wrecks. If they can't do that, they should keep quiet. If looting a wreck would flag one as criminal, most mission runners wouldn't take a shot at a ninja anyways. And Admiral "It's a trap!" Ackbar's words will have a whole new meaning for many
Kiandoshia	Posted - 2011.04.23 22:20:00 - [55] Yeah, I guess if salvaging flagged people as "criminals" and make them a fair game for the people "owning" the wrecks, we'd have a whole different level of whining :/
Corina's Bodyguard	Posted - 2011.04.23 22:28:00 - [56] Edited by: Corina''s Bodyguard on 23/04/2011 22:31:12 Originally by: HeIIfire11 Originally by: Tippia Herp derp I just explained it to you.You read what I wrote and think it over and don't give me that technical limitation crap lol.This topic comes up every few months and creates pages of discussion but no,it's not bad game design right? Salvaging itself isn't bad game design. Whats bad game design was CCP not going and fixing all those things you mentioned (scanning wrecks specifically, which supposedly was going to be added at some point...). Anyway, the current reason the wreck stays yellow is because the can inside it (which belongs tot he player who killed the ship, usually) is yellow. The actual wreck has no color, no ownership.
Jamaican Herbsman I Love You Mary Jane	Posted - 2011.04.23 22:28:00 - [57] Originally by: Amarraz my wrecks No
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2011.04.23 22:33:00 - [58] Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 23/04/2011 22:35:46 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: HeIIfire11 What are you talking about? You're claiming that technical limitations are bad game design. I'm asking you how. Where is the technical limitation first of all?Quote where ccp states that this is the case.It can't be so technaly limited to change the status of the wreck when this mechanic already exists.By abandoning the wreck and when looting it,it changes status from full to empty..from yellow to blue.I don't see the limitation,only lazy coding and/or bad game design. Originally by: Tippia Originally by: HeIIfire11 Without a quote what you say is worthless. The quote has already been posted. Originally by: CCP Prism x CCP Prism X ôit's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding [sic] any further.ö Like I said,It's designed for "people who want to roam and look for salvage" but you dont look for salvage now do you?No..you look for the player.Bad game design.If it wasn't bad game design you could scan and warp to the abandoned wreck..not the player.Quote is nothing more than proof of bad game design and lazy unfinished "mini professions". Originally by: Tippia Originally by: HeIIfire11 If you do pull that one from somewhere it will just prove my point about it being bad game design Why is it bad game design that you have to earn your rewards? It's bad game design because the salvager doesn't do anything or take any risks to earn it.Its a free give away for him protected by concord. Originally by: Tippia Originally by: HeIIfire11 What you don't understand is that the problem people have with this is that its risk free for the salvager. Yes? It's risk free for both parties aside from the fact that it's a competition. You risk being too slow. You stand to gain some salvage. It's not risk free to the mission runner who has to fit his ship right,tank the dps and risk a ship that costs 20 more than the salvagers ship which has no risk at all. Originally by: Tippia Originally by: HeIIfire11 All that's being asked is that he is flagged so that we can do what you say this game is all about..pvp. It's already about PvP. And again, if it's flagged, the mission runner has been given ownership over stuff without having earned it yet. Why should that happen?. Again..we are going in circles.The mission runner has earned it by killing it and having earned the ship and tools to do so in a lvl 4 mission.The ninja does nothing but risk free scanning. Originally by: Tippia Originally by: HeIIfire11 what risk does the salvager have? None. It's the same risk for both competitors, yes: that they might not be fast enough to win the prize. It's the same risk?really?Last I checked a t2 bs costs a bit more than some cheap destroyer.Not to mention the mission runner has to tank it all at the same time.Sry you're talking out your ass and pushing your completely pointless opinion here again.Doesn't make your case any stronger. Originally by: Tippia Originally by: HeIIfire11 I doubt it's padding a risk free griefers wallet either. Who's griefing? It's there to pad salvagers' wallets. And guess what: it does exactly that. I guess you started playing a day or two ago and missed the part where 90% of the time the goal of the salvager is to get into a fight with the mission runner or ** him off.Its no secret that eve is known and loved for the ability to grief people.But let you tell it it's all about the poor savager trying to make a living lol. Origina...**
HeIIfire11	Posted - 2011.04.23 22:42:00 - [59] Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 23/04/2011 22:44:49 Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 23/04/2011 22:42:20 Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard Anyway, the current reason the wreck stays yellow is because the can inside it (which belongs tot he player who killed the ship, usually) is yellow. The actual wreck has no color, no ownership. Empty or full..the wreck stays yellow...bad game design. Not only that but my corp name is on it empty or full.Something has my name on it ßnd concord protects it when anyone but me touches it..it's mine.
Corina's Bodyguard	Posted - 2011.04.23 22:43:00 - [60] Originally by: HeIIfire11 Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 23/04/2011 22:42:20 Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard Anyway, the current reason the wreck stays yellow is because the can inside it (which belongs tot he player who killed the ship, usually) is yellow. The actual wreck has no color, no ownership. Empty or full..the wreck stays yellow...bad game design. The wreck isn't yellow. The cargo container that must be inside the wreck so that the server doesn't boom is yellow.



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