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Eyeama Spy
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Posted - 2011.04.26 10:52:00 -
[1]
Supercaps are getting out of hand, they are just to common . Proof; nullhttp://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=9499304
A simple solution will be to make fighter bomber drones player flyable, Only allow them to fit the mini citadel torps on weapon racks, so a fleet of 100 near noobs can make the supercap flyers loose their current i win, or at least you cant kill me state of mind.
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Eyeama Spy
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Posted - 2011.04.26 10:55:00 -
[2]
sorry i messed up the link , but i trust you'r smart enough to find it copy and paste |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.04.26 11:04:00 -
[3]
Was brought up way back when in the early days of capitals. CCP said the code/database throws a fit if a player is within another player which is the case of piloted fighters/bombers.
Not sure how cramming more noobs into already laggy fights could act as a balancing mechanism either way.
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bartos100
Killer Koalas R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.04.26 11:35:00 -
[4]
i think he means a ship with close to the same stats as FB meaning: -small sig -big tank against subcaps -huge anticap DPS
that way a group of 25 pilots can put out close to the same dps as 1 maxed SC while being completely useless agains anything not capital
i like the idea there is a SB against BS
but atm the only way you can kill a suppercap fleet is a bigger suppercap fleet
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Jayson Lee
Minmatar Universal Exports
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Posted - 2011.04.26 11:37:00 -
[5]
I feel the only way to limit the number of supercaps is by raising the consequences of flying them. I know this idea will be universaly panned, but make it so that once a pilot is in a super cap, they are there for good and can not exit the ship, and if the ship goes the pilot dies, permanently. Or least a massive skill point reduction. You can say that do to the ships size and complexity that the current cloning technology wont allow a player's mind to fully be transfered to a new clone on destruction of the ship.
You will not be able to stop the numbers of super caps as EVE currently has too much money and too many minerals in circulation. Supercaps are looked at as a type of end game for a lot of pilots, lets make that true in more ways than one.
The only way I see to limit super caps is to raise the risk, and I dont think you can do that by adjusting the production side. I think CCP's only option is to limit the amount of pilots that can/will fly one.
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Cycotic Maniac
Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.04.26 12:45:00 -
[6]
No, just fix lag. It will balance itself like market does. If there is no lag there will be more big whelps.
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Cyrus Doul
Infinite Development
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Posted - 2011.04.26 12:48:00 -
[7]
For those of you that dont want to count. 139 supercarriers, approx 90 of which were nyxes, and 30 titans. granted it was still 3:2 nc people vs russian people. But somehow when the russians come with 1/3 their fleet supercarriers vs maybe 50 dreads and carriers combined I think they lose the right to talk about it.
I'd love say even a tech three stealth bomber that can shoot citadel torps.
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bartos100
Killer Koalas R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.04.26 13:21:00 -
[8]
a heavy bomber that can use citadel torps would do well against caps
if you give it a dammage bonus and an Explosion Radius nerf so they are not too powerful against normal caps it would become the ship to bring if suppers are on the field
but make it completely useless in damaging any subcaps so you would still need a normal fleet to keep your heavy bombers from getting blown up
but i think stealth would make it overpowered
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ilammy
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.26 13:35:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Cyrus Doul I'd love say even a tech three stealth bomber that can shoot citadel torps.
I think it should not be a T3-frigate, rather that T2 cruiser-size stealth bomber. ───────────────── <3 logistics |
bartos100
Killer Koalas R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.04.26 13:47:00 -
[10]
i was more thinking of T2 BC (LOL T2 drake )
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Cyrus Doul
Infinite Development
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Posted - 2011.04.26 14:37:00 -
[11]
Originally by: ilammy
Originally by: Cyrus Doul I'd love say even a tech three stealth bomber that can shoot citadel torps.
I think it should not be a T3-frigate, rather that T2 cruiser-size stealth bomber.
Stealth might be over powered like the rage guy said the post before yours. and i was just going with frigate as the model is there for a small ship to have stupid huge guns. I guess we could send the Cerb to the shop, but not sure what would get upgraded for min, gal and amarr.
And have you ever tried to shoot a citadel torp at a subcap out of siege. raven can laugh off a phoenix. now if you have a stack of 10 phoenix that might do something. but a stack of ten t2 stealthbombers can kill a bs easy anyways. Tl:dr pretty sure the damage system would already account for the size diff.
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TuRtLe HeAd
Apocalypse Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.04.26 14:48:00 -
[12]
The Answer is simple.
Doomsday Device Frigates. |
Gerrick Palivorn
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Posted - 2011.04.26 19:50:00 -
[13]
Originally by: bartos100 i was more thinking of T2 BC (LOL T2 drake )
I really really like the sound of that |
Cantabar
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Posted - 2011.04.27 01:11:00 -
[14]
I like this idea. But maybe supercarriers should lose All ability to field regular drones. Once they can only use fighters and fighter-bombers they wont be as overpowered. And yes being able to use normal drones is a source of the power of a super carrier. (Target Painter drones + fighter bombers to insta pop bs's anyone?)
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Shiroi Kiba
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Posted - 2011.04.27 14:20:00 -
[15]
Bring back the AOE DD but with a script. Be a nice way to remove the super carriers DPS in one hit. People may not be willing to throw them around if they risk loosing 300 mil a pop.
or...
Introduce an explosive device that can only fit in a freighter and is only activated once in 0.0. If you get the freighter close enough to a group of supers and the freighter is destroyed the explosives within the cargohold destroy anything within a 15km radius.
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Creetalor
Caldari Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
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Posted - 2011.04.27 14:35:00 -
[16]
I personally like the sound of a T3 Frigate the WH market can use a new thing to do and if you make it that it simply holds the launchers and 1 mid slot and maybe 2 lows but for that 5 highs with 4 Citadel launchers one and 1 for cloak or 6 highs and 6 launchers for a subsystem without cloak. It could be used in different ways lower dps but cloak and higher dps without cloak but with speed differences as well it could be a quick ship without ewar like SB which makes them good. ----------------------------------------
Creedance Shora Talor I-RED Chusa Executor Assistant |
bartos100
Killer Koalas R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.04.27 14:57:00 -
[17]
i just had a great idea to counter suppercaps without having to change a lot to the game
compact citadel torpedo's
those are torpedo's that are used by fighterbombers
if we would ba able to make those ourself and fit them in normal torpedo launchers
as ballance it might be an idea to only allow those torps on SB and not on other ships
any idea's about this ??
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.04.27 15:28:00 -
[18]
You can't fix supercapitals without nerfing them.
For what supercarriers should be, look at dreadnoughts. Dreadnoughts are well balanced because they have a specific role, they have to commit to a fight and can't just teleport out when Things Go Bad, and because they're very vulnerable to subcapitals and hence require a support fleet.
Supercarriers have none of these attribute. They don't have a role, they don't need to commit to a fight and they're not exactly vulnerable to subcapitals. Proposing new ships as a supercapital counter is absurd - the counter should be subcapitals.
So to make them vulnerable to subcapitals, supercarriers should be able to launch FBs only - not fighters or drones - with FBs tweaked so that they're close to useless against BS and smaller, and are easier to kill. Supercarriers should not be immune to normal tackle, although the other-ewar immunity can probably stay. The 15 min disappear-with-aggro-upon-logoff timer should be increased to an hour for supercapitals.
Making them commit to a fight is trickier. Requiring some sort of siege mode to be active to be able to control FBs is a possibility. It wouldn't prevent movement, only warping or jumping. They could still receive RR. Short cycle time, maybe as short as 2-3 mins. FBs return automatically upon deactivation. This might have problems with lag. Hmmm.
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ilammy
Red Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.27 18:09:00 -
[19]
Supercaps can't fight supercaps without a support fleet. ───────────────── <3 logistics |
bartos100
Killer Koalas R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.04.27 21:50:00 -
[20]
Originally by: ilammy Supercaps can't fight supercaps without a support fleet.
the only subcaps a suppercap fight needs is a load of dictors/hictors
and i would like to put up a challenge for all those who find that suppercarriers are OK as is
find me 1 KM where a fitted supper was killed without any suppercaps to kill it
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Goose99
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Posted - 2011.04.27 22:59:00 -
[21]
New module: Drop all resists on a single target to zero. Only mountable on t3. Drawback is same as cyno. Sacrifice a t3 to make a supercap no longer invincible.
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Jaik7
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Posted - 2011.04.27 23:25:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Goose99 New module: Drop all resists on a single target to zero. Only mountable on t3. Drawback is same as cyno. Sacrifice a t3 to make a supercap no longer invincible.
please no, this would be usable in other situations as well. imagine a conventional ganking. now imagine the victim has no resists.
Originally by: CCP Shadow The trolls have been vanquished.
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Jaik7
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Posted - 2011.04.27 23:28:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jayson Lee I feel the only way to limit the number of supercaps is by raising the consequences of flying them. I know this idea will be universaly panned, but make it so that once a pilot is in a super cap, they are there for good and can not exit the ship, and if the ship goes the pilot dies, permanently. Or least a massive skill point reduction. You can say that do to the ships size and complexity that the current cloning technology wont allow a player's mind to fully be transfered to a new clone on destruction of the ship.
You will not be able to stop the numbers of super caps as EVE currently has too much money and too many minerals in circulation. Supercaps are looked at as a type of end game for a lot of pilots, lets make that true in more ways than one.
The only way I see to limit super caps is to raise the risk, and I dont think you can do that by adjusting the production side. I think CCP's only option is to limit the amount of pilots that can/will fly one.
i like this idea best, but permadeath and bound pilots are too harsh. i'd rather it be like t3s where ship death is pod death and they will lose some skills related to capital ships.
Originally by: CCP Shadow The trolls have been vanquished.
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Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2011.04.27 23:49:00 -
[24]
I'm down with either a T3 Frigate, or a new T2 BC which is capable of doing massive point-to-point damage on capitals only. A ship which, relatively speaking, has a low sp-entry and is far cheaper.
I wouldn't suggest that this ship be capable of cloaking, but it's smaller size (in comparison) to the capitals would make it capable of engaging in relative safety, with the exception of smaller defensive ships fighting against it.
As far as the weapons of choice, we could either use citadel torps as mentioned above, or create new weapon classes unique to each race to fill the gap (I.E. a Wave Laser capable of doing massive damage, but only effect capital vessals other than freighters).
Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze |
Nnamuachs
Caldari Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.28 00:00:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Nnamuachs on 28/04/2011 00:02:06 Edited by: Nnamuachs on 28/04/2011 00:00:12
Originally by: bartos100
Originally by: ilammy Supercaps can't fight supercaps without a support fleet.
the only subcaps a suppercap fight needs is a load of dictors/hictors
and i would like to put up a challenge for all those who find that suppercarriers are OK as is
find me 1 KM where a fitted supper was killed without any suppercaps to kill it
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9534343&nolimit
and another one:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9534645
one of the 5 listed on the main caps losses page for the high isk kills.. can we have a harder challenge?
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bartos100
Killer Koalas R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.04.28 05:55:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Nnamuachs Edited by: Nnamuachs on 28/04/2011 00:02:06 Edited by: Nnamuachs on 28/04/2011 00:00:12
Originally by: bartos100
Originally by: ilammy Supercaps can't fight supercaps without a support fleet.
the only subcaps a suppercap fight needs is a load of dictors/hictors
and i would like to put up a challenge for all those who find that suppercarriers are OK as is
find me 1 KM where a fitted supper was killed without any suppercaps to kill it
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9534343&nolimit
and another one:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9534645
one of the 5 listed on the main caps losses page for the high isk kills.. can we have a harder challenge?
thx i didn't think it would be possible to kill a supper without cap ships
but can anyone tell more about how it happened and if any of those where given back by ccp ?
just to make sure they didn't die cause of a bug somewhere :)
ps: are there any more ?
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Nnamuachs
Caldari Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.28 06:35:00 -
[27]
Originally by: bartos100
Originally by: Nnamuachs Edited by: Nnamuachs on 28/04/2011 00:02:06 Edited by: Nnamuachs on 28/04/2011 00:00:12
Originally by: bartos100
the only subcaps a suppercap fight needs is a load of dictors/hictors
and i would like to put up a challenge for all those who find that suppercarriers are OK as is
find me 1 KM where a fitted supper was killed without any suppercaps to kill it
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9534343&nolimit
and another one:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9534645
one of the 5 listed on the main caps losses page for the high isk kills.. can we have a harder challenge?
thx i didn't think it would be possible to kill a supper without cap ships
but can anyone tell more about how it happened and if any of those where given back by ccp ?
just to make sure they didn't die cause of a bug somewhere :)
ps: are there any more ?
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9439763
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9439702
Statistically, theres likely many more, but i'm not going to continue digging through eve-kill just to continue to prove a point.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.04.28 07:50:00 -
[28]
Originally by: bartos100 thx i didn't think it would be possible to kill a supper without cap ships...
Both ship classes that can tackle them are sub-cap, so with tackle in place: as long as you have enough dps to overcome shield recharge you can technically kill them with frigates (there's a challenge, recommend Slicers for range > smart bombs )
Those Panda Legion mails illustrate the point of OPness quite proficiently: - Neither has 'SC swarms', one has two the other is alone (token Drake ignored ) - Both reports has roughly ten tacklers (HICs/DICs). - Both involve 20:1+ blobbage and probably done by Titan bridge after initial tackle.
Strange thing is that Titan's are fairly well designed/balanced; lots of direct oomph, vulnerable to most things with 'soft' abilities to augment fleet performance (bonuses, bridge) .. Titan's are what SCs should be (sans the DD naturally)
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.04.28 08:37:00 -
[29]
Nerfing will not solve it, that's the problem CCP and many players don't understand. Nerfing just creates a new alpha.
What needs to happen are technological leaps. (New ships and mods designed to counter the threat). That's what happens in real warfare, and should happen in games but doesn't because its easier to make minor tweaks than the code whole new ships etc.
To deal with the plethora of fighters/fighter-bombers you need an effective anti drone ship. Same with Drakes and Tengus you need an effective anti missile ship. Defender missiles have always been horribly broken, good in concept poor in coding. You put those kinds of ships and mods in the game and you nullify the problem (Yes it will take time as folks build the ships/mods and then folks skill to use them but in the end it will solve the problem in a logical manner). I think the best way to go would be to take the bubble mechanism of the warp bubbles, and copy the code with a tweak removing the disabling of warp drives and instead allowing it to deal damage to the missiles or drones. (Note missile rigs that increase missile speed might help avoid the bubble :), or Drone Rigs give enough hp to the drones/fighters/fighter-bombers to allow them to be somewhat effective). The problem would be having someone at CCP left that is familiar enough with that portion of the code to make the changes needed to give it broader application.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.04.28 08:46:00 -
[30]
Originally by: El'Niaga Nerfing will not solve it, that's the problem CCP and many players don't understand. Nerfing just creates a new alpha.
What needs to happen are technological leaps. (New ships and mods designed to counter the threat). That's what happens in real warfare, and should happen in games but doesn't because its easier to make minor tweaks than the code whole new ships etc.
IN case you haven't noticed, this isn't real life. What you're describing is power creep that serves only to obsolete ships. In a game, this is bad enough when done unintentionally; doing it deliberately is just moronic.
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