Dear CCP

Can you buff and lo and Null so we don't keep listening to them bleat about how hi sec needs to be nerfed

Tal

Dear CCP

Can you buff and lo and Null so we don't keep listening to them bleat about how hi sec needs to be nerfed

Tal

Right, because whiners from low and null are the problem in EVE.

Right, because whiners from low and null are the problem in EVE.

I have asked, and been told that the average player in null can only make about 30 mill per hour.

Even as a mainly hi-sec player, I think null folk should be able to make more per hour than I do running level 4s

But, making hi-sec worse will not make null better.

Fix null.

How about fixing them and giving people a reason to go there.

there are plenty of reasons only problem are the large allaince blocs , they either complete paranoid about letting others in or just use the size of their sov to measure their Epeenwith and do nothing else with it

Low-sec needs something unique.

What exactly is wrong with lowsec?

I don't care if bears are too scared to go there, more sites and good fights for the rest of us.

It's really only the bears who are missing out on all the isk and fun.

Right, because whiners from low and null are the problem in EVE.

Apparently it needs more isk and incentive for peeps to move there, fun is relative btw.

there are plenty of reasons only problem are the large allaince blocs , they either complete paranoid about letting others in or just use the size of their sov to measure their Epeenwith and do nothing else with it

ISK shouldn't be the main reason for people wanting to move to low/null, they should want to go because there are worthwhile experiences associated with low/null.

However, at present people are able to earn a large amount of isk with very little effort and no real risk. This creates a massive deterrent to moving out of high sec.

I makes more scene to nerf the high sec economy than it does to buff low, null and wormhole space.

ISK shouldn't be the main reason for people wanting to move to low/null, they should want to go because there are worthwhile experiences associated with low/null.

However, at present people are able to earn a large amount of isk with very little effort and no real risk. This creates a massive deterrent to moving out of high sec.

I makes more scene to nerf the high sec economy than it does to buff low, null and wormhole space.

The good folk in lo-sec and null often say it is the broken 'gameplay' that is the issue.

How would nerfing hi-sec fix the broken gameplay issues?

Where did i suggests that nerfing high sec would automatically buff low sec gameplay?

I do think the gameplay in low sec needs to be improved and expanded on but first, i think high sec needs to be looked at.

No, because you cant force ppl to go somewhere they don't want to go...

Some ppl like hi sec and while they accept the dangers there, they don't feel like being the main entertainment for bored pvp'ers and greifer alliances (you know who you are) in null and low sec.

Everyone needs to take a step back and respect that ppl are different and want different things from Eve.


Tal

Who would be forcing you to move out of high sec?

For people like you there is current the no choice. You are even too scared to try life out of high sec or you easily earn enough isk that there is no need for you to look elsewhere.

I'm saying CCP should give you that choice. Either you move out of high, earl a boat load of isk and experience the full game or you stay in highsec and slog your guts out day after day in level 4's trying to get enough isk to get that PLEX every month.

Hi sec doesn't need to be looked at till low and null are "fixed", what is it low and null are broken so hi sec should be to ?

Tell you what troll, why dont you check my history before making lame ass comments that don't contribute to the discussion beyond making you look dumb.

Tell you what troll, why dont you check my history before making lame ass comments that don't contribute to the discussion beyond making you look dumb.

Tal

I don't consider low sec or null sec to be broken, i consider high sec to be OP.

Please tell me what is "brocken" about low, null.

I'm no troll, i just think you fail to see the big picture.

I'm more that willing to hear your counter to my arguments if you have a good argument to make.

Access, Sovereignty etc, Killboard stats being more important than actually playing the game, greifers.. need I go on ....


Tal

yeah please do go on as i'm not sure how sov and kill board stats affect the little guy in highsec just trying to make some isk.

Its non about nerfing/buffing hisec. Those "hardcore playas" will always hate the way of life in hisec. Its something like dumb fat rednecks living in the middle of the desert are complaining how those shiny people in wall street make a big fortune every day.

Tal, don't bother replying if you have nothing intelligent to say, just stick to calling people who don't agree with you "trolls".

To make it clear to anyone else, i want all parts of eve to be an amazing an fun experience but i currently thing high sec holds the game back a little in that it instilled a aversion to risk and as evident here, a scene of entitlement.

I agree with those that say low/null sec needs to be improved gameplay wise to attract people but it is not as simple as saying "they should fix it".

In the short term, i think the best way would be to slightly nerf high sec in the for of isk payouts so that more people would get out there and find better ways to make isk and in turn, discover new ways to play the game. Without such a change, i feel people will be content to stay running level 4's at 100 mil + per hour and afk mining all day, to a degree where they may even overlook the changes that CCP have already and will be making (FW, Dust)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jfFKSIqkvM

100 mill isk per hour plus running level 4 missions.

I wish.

i want all parts of eve to be an amazing and fun experience but i currently think high sec holds the game back a little in that it instilled a aversion to risk and as evident in this thread, a scene of entitlement.

I refuse the waste anymore time in this crappy thread going around in circles with this idion Rats.

There was a similar thread (more about low sec than high) a while ago that some of you may wish to reply to: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1740910#post1740910


See you in space o/

Thought the thread title said Buffalo

What they coul do to make Low more attractive is make it so Hi sec stations have a built in tax on everything. Make it so you cant get perfect refine in empire make it so missions are taxed n empire make it so industry is taxed in empire. Then let Low have perfect refine with skills. You can stay in empire but concord is going to tax you for the amount of safety they provie.

Concord provides no safety, they deliver retribution.

Dear CCP

Can you buff and lo and Null so we don't keep listening to them bleat about how hi sec needs to be nerfed

Tal

100 mill isk per hour plus running level 4 missions.

I wish.

ISK shouldn't be the main reason for people wanting to move to low/null, they should want to go because there are worthwhile experiences associated with low/null.

However, at present people are able to earn a large amount of isk with very little effort and no real risk. This creates a massive deterrent to moving out of high sec.

I makes more scene to nerf the high sec economy than it does to buff low, null and wormhole space.

I know lots of people who want to move to Null eventually. Know why they stay in High-Sec? The people who already live in Null don't want them. Eve's paranoid power hungry culture is the biggest problem with Null. It has nothing to do with game mechanics.

Right, because whiners from low and null are the problem in EVE.

You don't blitz them for the LP?

What a nerd.

When you reah the age of 10 or so, you will no longer use such words as 'nerd'

Something for you to to look forward to

No amount of buffing can "fix" low-sec. Change it.

Nullsec needs buffed but also fixed. Corp/Alliance controls can be something that would give a indirect boost, also fixing POSs, redoing industry in 0.0. reverting the anomoly nerf, market only usable if you have docking rights, adding more entry points, etc.

Access, Sovereignty etc, Killboard stats being more important than actually playing the game, greifers.. need I go on ....


Tal

Yes, yes you need to go on, and try to formulate at least a single reasonable argument.

Access to all systems in EVE happens via stargates or wormholes, and there are a lot of those. Low and wormholes have no sov.

Killboard bitches and griefers exist only in hisec.

This thread is once again full of ignorant hisec trolls, repeating the same canned arguments they've read somewhere, without even considering what they mean, ad nauseaum.

Like bots.

I'm not surprised that someone like you considers that post intellectual. In this trainwreck of a thread, even just writing ablababluu would have been enough to impress.

You don't blitz them for the LP?

What a nerd.

I always wished we could use bombs in low sec and could never come up with a reasonable excuse why they shouldn't be allowed.

Also liked it when you had to actually put time and effort into probing down grav and radar sites. You could mine Gneiss and Crokite for hours on end in low sec and not have to worry (too much) about getting jumped... and hell, if you did get jumped, the guys who dropped in earned the opportunity to do so.

Not that anyone gives a crap, but I'd love to see just those two things happen to buff low sec.

Right, because whiners from low and null are the problem in EVE.

Right, because whiners from low and null are the problem in EVE.

The crimewatch changes are going to fundamentally change lowsec already... making it a lot safer (since lowsec gatecamps as we know them will be a thing of the past). If they de-incentivize high sec particularly around industry, mining, and missions, as I understand they are planning to do, I think lowsec will get a lot more interesting.

With regards to nullsec, you hit pretty much everything. I might add slowing down fleets/teleportation and maybe player controlled gates. New cap rolls and a specialized dread class of titan killer might be a good idea too...

This ^

The crimewatch changes are going to fundamentally change lowsec already... making it a lot safer (since lowsec gatecamps as we know them will be a thing of the past). If they de-incentivize high sec particularly around industry, mining, and missions, as I understand they are planning to do, I think lowsec will get a lot more interesting.

With regards to nullsec, you hit pretty much everything. I might add slowing down fleets/teleportation and maybe player controlled gates. New cap rolls and a specialized dread class of titan killer might be a good idea too...

Right, because whiners from low and null are the problem in EVE.

The market thing would be really nice, for one. It's extremely irritating going to buy a named 10MN MWD and finding all of them in the region have been relisted at 1.5B each.

Tal, don't bother replying if you have nothing intelligent to say, just stick to calling people who don't agree with you "trolls".

To make it clear to anyone else, i want all parts of eve to be an amazing and fun experience but i currently think high sec holds the game back a little in that it instilled a aversion to risk and as evident in this thread, a scene of entitlement.

I agree with those that say low/null sec needs to be improved gameplay wise to attract people but it is not as simple as saying "they should fix it".

In the short term, i think the best way would be to slightly nerf high sec in the form of isk payouts so that more people would get out there and find better ways to make isk and in turn, discover new ways to play the game. Without such a change, i feel people will be content to stay running level 4's at 100 mil + per hour and afk mining all day, to a degree where they may even overlook the changes that CCP have already made or will be making (FW, Dust) in the future.

Than how would I make any money?

There are people in high-sec that are full-on carebears. They will never leave. But all the other players, and the newer players, have little incentive to leave to the dangerous parts of the galaxy, as certain death awaits. The rewards of these areas of space don't exceed the risk. I personally feel that there should be a natural evolution for players, that after they've learned enough of eve's crazy-massive learning curve, they can take the steps from the safety of high, into low and null. As it stands, this is not working. Lowsec is a barren wasteland, and serves more as a barrer between high and null than anything else. All the players that live there want is a steady flow of victims into their gatecamps. They've become the victims to their own actions, and have taught anyone that comes under their guns that lowsec is not a place to travel.

So i definately agree that buffing lowsec could act as a catalyst for highsec players to try breaking their mold. If the reward is great enough, then they might be willing to take the risk. More rewards for highsec players, and more potential targets for the lowsec dwellers. Win, win!
[Controversial addendum] - Adding those new scalling-damage gate-guns into the mix, and now we're taking! Less gatecamps means even more high-sec players in low. Which means even more targets to explode!! Only difference is, you have to hunt them down, instead of the current gatecamp bordom. Leveling the playing field could leave to loads of players having a positive PVP experience in low security space, rather than the standard OMGWTFPWNED experience.

Don't think null should be buffed mind, they're making crap-tons of isk. Though suggestions of changes that get them all fighting over things would be welcome!

Apparently it needs more isk and incentive for peeps to move there, fun is relative btw.

No it doesn't, doesn't matter how much rewards you put there. You could make sites pop can with trillions of isk in low sec would still be the waste land it is.
The problem is not low sec rewards amount available, it's players living there and low sec travelling mechanics.

[Controversial addendum] - Adding those new scalling-damage gate-guns into the mix, and now we're taking! Less gatecamps means even more high-sec players in low. Which means even more targets to explode!! Only difference is, you have to hunt them down, instead of the current gatecamp bordom.

I was being sarcastic. Though cans worth trillions might be worth it, then again....inflation.

If you mean no one is going to give them space for free yes you are correct. You need to do 1 of three things 1 Take space and hold on to it 2 rent space 3 make friends with another alliance and get space but you will have to show up to OPs and put your dues in to stay in said space. Null wants people I think your friends just want a null haven that is completly safe. I have moved to null and back 3 times because of losing space it is a part of the game.

Your point? I live in Null. Well aware. Doesn't stop people who are interested from running into road blocks. They liike PvE and mining. They would do fine in Null but as soon as someone finds out they'd rather shoot their own foot than take their skiff or Raven to a fleet. Well, no one is interested. As for renting... Yeah, that is a good deal. Either way, I think there are things in Null that a lot of people would like to do but they aren't wanted because they aren't interested in PvP and holding Sov. If Null idiots weren't so aggressive and power hungry then they would be able to go to Null. As it is they're reasonably happy in High-Sec where they can do their own thing without much worry. I wonder just how many people live in High-Sec for those exact same reasons, hmmm.....

Solo PVP is DEAD. Fix that. Not everybody wants to join some nerds and listen their mumbling just to be able to play the game.

Reducing the risk of being killed may solve the problem:
1. remove warp scramblers, warp disruptors, warp bubbles\scripts from the game
2. increase the time required to start the warp drives
3. decrease incoming damage from multiple ships (something like stacking penalty)

For example, you will have like 15 seconds to kill a ship, if you fail - it will go away. Simple.
In the end, you'll see a lot more pew-pew, because people will have a chance of escape.

Solo PVP is DEAD. Fix that. Not everybody wants to join some nerds and listen their mumbling just to be able to play the game.

Reducing the risk of being killed may solve the problem:
1. remove warp scramblers, warp disruptors, warp bubbles\scripts from the game
2. increase the time required to start the warp drives
3. decrease incoming damage from multiple ships (something like stacking penalty)

For example, you will have like 15 seconds to kill a ship, if you fail - it will go away. Simple.
In the end, you'll see a lot more pew-pew, because people will have a chance of escape.

Losec a wast land? are u nutz losec is best place to live in eve tbh there are players ov all trades in losec it is the area in eve you can be free to do as you please it might take a little more efort than highsec but thats the point and you dont have the o.o bullcrap so its win win

dont matter were in eve u live high sec losec or o.o theres allways risks

2) maybe the problem then is that hisec rewards exceed the risk?

Or maybe EVE needs more people who enjoy the risk, not the isk?

3) there are no gate camps, there is only fear of gate camps, which needs to be cleansed with fire from NPC corps
Like I said, there really are no gate camps in lowsec. Avoid Amamake and you're golden. And just forget the idea that PVP folk is after soft targets, we prefer fights and not ganks, like hiseccers.

Lin why you trolling again?

I mean, what's the point, that only gives the scaredbears more fuel for their misbeliefs.

Grab a T1 cruiser, go clean up some 4/10s, get back with hundreds of millions. Even if you lose a cruiser every now and then, you still end up rich, and have a great time.

"holds the game back" - How? Aversion to risk? Soooooo... no pvp in hi sec at all huh?

Or do you just not get that some people have different tastes in what they want out of a game? And how is this thread *any* evidence of a "sense" of entitlement? Clue: It's not.

People who want "better ways to make isk" already do. Exploration being one of them (when I dedicate myself to it I make in excess of 100m/hour exploring - takes time and skills, but it's definitely possible).

What is *wrong* with people being content to run 4's or mine? (AFK mining has it's own risks). As evidenced by the population, there are lots of people who aren't interested in FW. Same with dust. So "overlooking the changes" might just be deliberate. Just so you know, Hi-Sec mission running has been nerfed at least 4 times over the years I can think of. I'm sure that's not all, just what I can remember off the top of my head.

People still stay. Why? They want to...

11% npc corp tax wasn't enough? Well, guess I called that one. Gotta remember, there are trillions of inhabitants on the planets who concord is (somewhat) protecting as well. Ensuring shipments get in, trade, the market, etc., etc.,

Why do so many people have such a low opinion of them selves to say that if they go to low sec, they would just be easy targets for the pirates?

Are you less intelligent than the pirates? Do you think that low sec dwellers were born with the knowledge of how to avoid a gate camp?

Because:
1. pve fitted ship vs pvp fitted ship = you lose
2. 1 vs many = you lose
3. non combat ship vs combat ship = you lose
4. bad internet connection = you lose
5. not using meta gaming tricks = you lose

Also, if CCP will reduce the rewards in hi-sec then even less players will go to low-sec, because it will be harder for them to recover from the loss of the ship.

No a most player corps have a tax of 10% this is minamal at best and you get the added protection of never getting wardec. This 11% tax also only effects mission runners as market and mining people do not even see this. Tell me how it is fair to target one part of a NPC corp and not the rest. Also if you take your time and read what I put this goes against every corp in Hi not just NPC corps. But I guess then your arguement wouldnt hold up.

Because:
1. pve fitted ship vs pvp fitted ship = you lose
2. 1 vs many = you lose
3. non combat ship vs combat ship = you lose
4. bad internet connection = you lose
5. not using meta gaming tricks = you lose

Also, if CCP will reduce the rewards in hi-sec then even less players will go to low-sec, because it will be harder for them to recover from the loss of the ship.

Industry in Losec Nul is just fine ..

It should be less efficient to reprocess in lo/nul than in highsec
It should cost more to build/research and manufacture there too.


Because of Infrastructure
Highsec has it
Nul doesn't.

Yes, yes you need to go on, and try to formulate at least a single reasonable argument.

Access to all systems in EVE happens via stargates or wormholes, and there are a lot of those. Low and wormholes have no sov.

Killboard bitches and griefers exist only in hisec.

This thread is once again full of ignorant hisec trolls, repeating the same canned arguments they've read somewhere, without even considering what they mean, ad nauseaum.

Like bots.

1. Why are you attempting to do pvp in a pve ship?
2. Why don't you scout a gate before you jump in or burn back to the gate if there is a camp? C
3. see 1
4. Why are others to blame for you having a bad connection?
5. idk what this means...

You keep making arguments then denying you made them ?? Funny that must be everyone else heh... By the way you said you weren't posting in here anymore, as you have decided to go back on that too (although I'm sure you will say you didn't) would you like to answer the questions you where asked and ignored when you flounced out of this thread in a huff


Tal

1 Because your taking part in PVE activities maybe ??
2 Doesnt always work and gates aren't the only place you can be out-numbered
3 See 1

4 and 5 you can have


Tal

Try reading the thread properly dude. The guy messed up his quote. Someone else made those comments, not me.

I came back to so which because someone liked my post and i wanted to see what it was.

I will answer any question you have. Please ask away...

He said: 1. pve fitted ship vs pvp fitted ship = you lose

I said: 1. Why are you attempting to do pvp in a pve ship?

and you come back with: Because your taking part in PVE activities maybe ??

what's wrong with you?

What i meant to say was:

For people like you there is currently no choice. You are either too scared to try life out of high sec or you easily earn enough isk that there is no need for you to look elsewhere.

"I was making a generalised comment about people that are arguing from your point of view. I don't know you personally and i don't care to." Sorry if i don't proof read every post i make.

Why don't you stop this petty back and fourth and read what people are saying in this thread and then come back with something constructive.

If you mean no one is going to give them space for free yes you are correct. You need to do 1 of three things 1 Take space and hold on to it 2 rent space 3 make friends with another alliance and get space but you will have to show up to OPs and put your dues in to stay in said space. Null wants people I think your friends just want a null haven that is completly safe. I have moved to null and back 3 times because of losing space it is a part of the game.

Like you,



So you made a statement based in no fact, like the rest of your posts. mate again how about you listen to what others are saying and come back with constructive arguments rather than trolling everyone who doesn't agree with you.

Tal

Industry in Losec Nul is just fine ..

It should be less efficient to reprocess in lo/nul than in highsec
It should cost more to build/research and manufacture there too.


Because of Infrastructure
Highsec has it
Nul doesn't.

All this concord protection costs money, so to offset having to protect people like you, a bare minimum of 10% of ore refinery output is taken as protection money. When it comes to manufacturing or research etc, hisec is inundated with administrators, and they take 10% of the manufacturing unit's value in administrative costs.

No, no I don't as my arguments are just some of the many that get talked to death in these forums so I dont feel the need to repeat "the same canned arguments they've read somewhere, without even considering what they mean, ad nauseaum."

As for your "Killboard bitches and griefers exist only in hisec" what fking universe are you in, cause it ain't this one.

So run along little one adults are trying to talk.


Tal

And it's posts like this that make the case *for* the hi-sec'ers that all you want is to nerf hi-sec for no appreciable gain they can see, since none of those game mechanics are currently *in game*. It makes the case that you don't necessarily care if the game is made better, per se, as long as "choices" are limited for a group of people you don't (appear) to like...

So you hold on to those arguments, even when they have been proven wrong already?

I live in wormhole space and roam regularly in lowsec, and I don't see griefers of killboard whores, that's the game universe I play in.

You should really try to talk more, and bullshit less.

Then I guess you could just as well present your arguments instead of that pitiful dodging. It looks like you have zero confidence in them. Teach us kids about lowsec!

By the way, which side am I on, oh mature one?

My point being that *one* of the things brought up in the original "11% NPC corp tax thread" was "it would help encourage people to move to low null, to get better iskies".

And it's posts like this that make the case *for* the hi-sec'ers that all you want is to nerf hi-sec for no appreciable gain they can see, since none of those game mechanics are currently *in game*.

It makes the case that you don't necessarily care if the game is made better, per se, as long as "choices" are limited for a group of people you don't (appear) to like...

So you hold on to those arguments, even when they have been proven wrong already?

I live in wormhole space and roam regularly in lowsec, and I don't see griefers of killboard whores, that's the game universe I play in.

You should really try to talk more, and bullshit less.

... the problem with nullsec right now is that no matter how much we want to build up our infrastructure to the point where we can even begin to compete with (or let alone supercede) hisec, we can't. We're limited by the rules of the sandbox from making an empire in nullsec which would be able to compete with hisec, and as such a vast majority of everyone in nullsec do all their moneymaking, production and stocking up in hisec.

This is not as it should be, the imbalance between high, low and null are too vast in the favor of hisec. Nullsec needs to be released from a lot of the restrictions which currently restrain it, and hisec really does need to have some costs increased.

Interesting...

I have never lived in null sec but i have always wondered why sov holders don't have the ability to change their systems to be more like high sec.

Bear with me...

Lets say that a sov holder could pick ONE system in a region to be a high security market hub (with NPC & player security and gate guns) do you think this might allow null sec industry to thrive?

If not, why not?

Or I guess I could whip out a hulk and do some mining but why should I have to do that? Mining is terrible.

For 0.0 industry to thrive we need to de-couple stations from sov so we can have more than one station per system. We need some way of producing our own lowend minerals in a way that is close to the profit produced by highends to encourage people to actually mine them. And we need more production capacity in player built outposts so that production can keep up with the increased number of players in 0.0 (probably more research too but idgaf).

You're coming at the problem from the wrong angle. 0.0 industry doesn't need more safety it needs more flexibility, capacity and resources.

I produce Drakes in batches of 20 once every couple of months in Deklein (probably the most active 0.0 market) and it can take weeks for my mineral buy orders to fill (and even then its mostly people jumping in compressed lowends rather than mining them). Once thats done I have the challenge of fetching 4-5 jump freighters full of materials from potentially 3-4 jumps out of my production station (I could limit my buy orders but that'll take another couple of weeks to fill). Then I'm faced with a couple of days wait for one of the 10 manufacturing slots in the station.

Alternatively I could compress minerals in empire and jump them to a 0.0 refinery, reprocess them there and do the 4-5 jumps in my 6 billion isk pinata to my manufacturing station but then I need an empire production chain as well as a 0.0 one and at that point why bother for the 3-5m profit I get selling a drake. I might as well just buy some in Jita and jump them up pre-built.

Or I guess I could whip out a hulk and do some mining but why should I have to do that? Mining is terrible.

For 0.0 industry to thrive we need to de-couple stations from sov so we can have more than one station per system. We need some way of producing our own lowend minerals in a way that is close to the profit produced by highends to encourage people to actually mine them. And we need more production capacity in player built outposts so that production can keep up with the increased number of players in 0.0 (probably more research too but idgaf).

I can relate to this. Perhaps some sort of 0.0 exclusive mining module that yields far greater amount of lowends mined compared to that mined in highsec?

Buff the rorq boosts perhaps or introduce additional mining foreman links to increase lowend yield?

Lets say that a sov holder could pick ONE system in a region to be a high security market hub (with NPC & player security and gate guns) do you think this might allow null sec industry to thrive?

If not, why not?

Is it against the rules to insult an ISD member by calling them names for suggesting something that would destroy the balance of the games interdependent nature?

However, if your current null sec market hub was a safer place to be, don't you think people would then jump in their freighters and fill your orders quicker? Obviously there would need to an intensive for them to do that (e.g. more profit) and someone would probably need to provide a safe jump bride network.

how bout we nuke low and null instead? just vaporize it with very large super nova bowling balls.

Constructive criticism is always welcome! Let's leave the name calling out of this. Tell it to my ship if we ever meet in New Eden.

How about we nuke your posting?

Is it against the rules to insult an ISD member by calling them names for suggesting something that would destroy the balance of the games interdependent nature?

Doesn't sound like a bad idea to me, how else are you going to make it better to mine in dangerous areas without either doing something like this or nerfing highsec mining (which is the same thing)?

lets think about this for a minute ccp...

you nerf high sec
anger 60% of your player base + riots
high sec subscription decrease by 30-40%
15 % additional subscription fallout due to inflation/market shortages.
ccp goes bankrupt because dust flop + sudden decline in eve subscriptions
might as well call the patch incarna 2.0; derpaggedonGäó

just saying, you should know who's paying your bills... and you shouldn't force people into a game play style that they clearly do not want.

this

lets think about this for a minute ccp...

you nerf high sec
anger 60% of your player base + riots
high sec subscription decrease by 30-40%
15 % additional subscription fallout due to inflation/market shortages.
ccp goes bankrupt because dust flop + sudden decline in eve subscriptions
might as well call the patch incarna 2.0; derpaggedonGäó

just saying, you should know who's paying your bills... and you shouldn't force people into a game play style that they clearly do not want.

this

Perhaps it would help if null sec folk posted and explained how good null is rather than simply insulting hi-sec folk.

Insulting the very folk you would like to have move to your play area has always seemed like a mistaken approach to me.

Rats, Roime, don't make me stop this thread. I will, if you two don't stop acting like children. I'll stop this thread right now, and you can WALK all the way back to GD.

The mineral prices in Null were actually pretty good until this year where a lot of people have stated to mine in Null. Unfortunately it is just a function of supply and demand. Doing as that says would destroy the economies in the rest of EvE just to give Null miners a higher reward.

So mining was already better in Null but now people have flooded the market, so you think they should be rewarded more for over supply. Strange I did not hear this view when Hi-sec residents flooded their markets.

Null needs to be fixed first and foremost by altering the rewards from the top down system to the bottom up. But this needs to be made carefully as any alterations could easily result in massive inflation or as has happened a flooding of the market.
But a corp and an alliance should live by its members not gain enough isk to go on forever if all the members left. So as I said bottom up.

As to increased income, with ring mining in the pipes I would like to see it based on the PI system for the reward levels where hi-get the least, lo about middle of the road and Null the most. Industry in Null needs an overhaul but I think that should actually be covered with the POS revamp, so if you want it you can have it if you pay.

As to the mining anoms apparently the amounts of spod need to be reduced to allow for a better profit per hour by Null miners.

Then the null sec Sov system needs an overhaul. Well scrapping completely and a full re-build.

Edit: Damn I was going to say iskies to annoy Lord Zim

The mineral prices in Null were actually pretty good until this year where a lot of people have stated to mine in Null. Unfortunately it is just a function of supply and demand. Doing as that says would destroy the economies in the rest of EvE just to give Null miners a higher reward.

Not sure how nerfing hi-sec will fix the broken game mechanics of null.

But my main point is that insulting the very group of players null sec want to move to their play area, just seems counter productive.

That the game mechanics of null needs to be fixed is something that many null sec folk have been saying for quite some time.

Not sure how nerfing hi-sec will fix the broken game mechanics of null.

But my main point is that insulting the very group of players null sec want to move to their play area, just seems counter productive.

There's more broken about the game than just "game mechanics of null", and last I checked, EVE had a lot more isk flowing into it than flowing out of it. Hisec is a huge and volumous market, with a high rate of isk throughput through a variety of different mechanisms. If CCP were to f.ex take more active care of just how much isk they take out of the economy through f.ex sales taxes, by increasing or decreasing this, then they would stand a lot more free to incentivize people into moving their moneymaking chars into nullsec. Currently, there are very, very few incentives to do so, and part of that lies in both the convenience and profitability of hisec.


My current impression is that if I say "increase hisec taxes" or even "incentivize hisec people to move to nullsec", hisec people seem to take it as some sort of insult. vOv

Not an insult at all , its that increasing taxes or nerfing hi sec will not make hi sec peeps move to low or null. You can incentivise ppl to go into low with a carrot , making low and null more attractive, but you can't do it with a stick, nerfing hi sec, as that just get's ppls backs up.

Not an insult at all , its that increasing taxes or nerfing hi sec will not make hi sec peeps move to low or null. You can incentivise ppl to go into low with a carrot , making low and null more attractive, but you can't do it with a stick, nerfing hi sec, as that just get's ppls backs up.

Tal

Except, and this has been said multiple times, every time CCP has tried to lure people out into nullsec or lowsec with a carrot, they've had to nerf the carrots because of the impact said carrot has on the economy. Hisec quite simply sets a way too high baseline for reward compared to effort and/or risk to allow the rest of the game to keep up.

Not to stomp on someone who apparently gets it, but plexes are currently 507/498,5, not 350. :P

So CCP should buff the null/low sec carrot so that people out in null are earning way more that ppl in high sec? Isn't that essentially the same as keeping null/low the same and nerfing high sec? Instead of paying 350 mil for a plex, you would end up paying 700 mil.

So CCP should buff the null/low sec carrot so that people out in null are earning way more that ppl in high sec? Isn't that essentially the same as keeping null/low the same and nerfing high sec? Instead of paying 350 mil for a plex, you would end up paying 700 mil.

p.s glad to the the quality of your posts improving

I do know that if you try to force ppl to go somewhere they don't want to go for many different reason then they won't, ,and nerfing the place they like to be and where they enjoy the game will just result in unsubs, not shifting the player base into low and nul.

The solution will probably mean lots of changes in all areas, I just don't believe making hi sec worse is the fix, at least not until a viable alternative is in place.

Not really the same at all. Currently null and low are not attractive to ppl in hi sec (for what ever reason) so making hi sec worse isn't going to make them shift to low or null. Like I said I'm sure the fix is complex and a mixture of allot of the ideas on these forums but just nerfing hi sec isn't going to do it.

It is indeed good sir, a fair point well put.

However, there common a perception that many hi-sec folk would then quit Eve.

I personally would not quit, unless hi-sec was nerfed to the point where I could not afford to replace my ganked frigates, and I do not believe CCP would ever nerf hi-sec to anything like this level.

Perhaps CCP could try moving some of the hi-sec benefits to lo and null sec on an incremental basis until the - quitters - if indeed there are any, start to impact on CCP's profits.

Mineral prices? - supply & demand. Stop oversupply.

ISK rewards? - already balanced

Lack of targets? - your fault. Stop ganking newbies and solo players.

The only problem i see is lack of trade hubs and station services in null. CCP should transform planet hubs into trading stations, so the people will be able to buy\sell the stuff without flying to Jita every time.

Nullsec must have a huge buff, then hisec can get a long series of small nerfs to gradually incentivize people into moving their iskmaking alts into nullsec. Not all, obviously, because a surprisingly large amount of people are seriously risk-averse, but for those who have looked upon nullsec as too much effort or impossible to do anything in even half-way profitably compared to hisec imports, these changes can combine to make it worth it again.

And this would benefit more than just the carebears, it would also benefit roaming gangs, since they would have more targets who can **** up on keeping safe. Wins all around. vOv

I wonder, why do you think that low-sec and null-sec are broken? I think they are working as intended.

Mineral prices? - supply & demand. Stop oversupply.

ISK rewards? - already balanced

Lack of targets? - your fault. Stop ganking newbies and solo players.

The only problem i see is lack of trade hubs and station services in null. CCP should transform planet hubs into trading stations, so the people will be able to buy\sell the stuff without flying to Jita every time.

[quote=PeHD0M]Mineral prices? - supply & demand. Stop oversupply.

Obviously not, since a large portion of nullsec looks to hisec to make their isk.

Funny, I thought it was to get people to move out of NPC corps.

Also christ, stop saying "iskies".


Actually, the only mechanic which isn't strictly there, is the "manufacturing cost based on item cost" (instead we do have the manufacturing installation cost and the running costs, but they're so small as to be negiligible), and I'll readily admit that was a bit over the top, but it was over the top to counter-balance what I can only hope was a troll post.

The problem I have with his post is that he's showing absolutely no regard for balance or sandboxyness.

In hisec, there's very little risk, you can easily autopilot freighters full of minerals etc around, you have tons of resources at your fingertips, and compared to nullsec, almost limitless manufacturing ability for very, very little money. In nullsec, the most common problem to actually building up an empire is that there's almost no industrial capacity as it is, and when a whole region can't compete with single systems in hisec, and this squarely because of serious game mechanics-induced limits, it should be pretty obvious what needs to be done.

As for all the mechanics for costs of doing anything in hisec, if CCP is actually worried about inflation, hisec would be the one place where they should go and up the costs. It likely wouldn't have to be as drastic as my "minimum 10% refinery tax" etc, as the hisec economy is huge, but I see absolutely no problem with slightly increasing costs in hisec across the board. After all, the people in hisec are receiving a huge security net and a vast convenience net in the form of an absolutely huge mound of various raw resources which are readily available to everyone. I'm sure the hisec empires would want to recoup the costs they sink into keeping all this running and secure, and these costs are rising steadily with the population.

You want to live somewhere where these costs are lower? You've got lowsec, NPC nullsec and conquerable nullsec for that, and if you're ambitious you can even choose to build your own empire in nullsec where all such taxes go to your pocket, to do with as you see fit.


Actually, it's posts like Kitty Bear's which makes the case for why hisec carebears shouldn't come near anything related to eve game design, because it shows a clear and distinct lack for both game balance, and the concept of "sandbox".

Hisec is where people should go for a safe, low effort and semi-profitable game experience. This should come with a cost, and it currently doesn't, not really. I suppose lowsec should have lower costs, since concord etc is less involved in protecting those areas, whereas conquerable nullsec should be entirely at the mercy of whomever owns the space. And, surprisingly, it is at the mercy of whomever owns the space, the problem with nullsec right now is that no matter how much we want to build up our infrastructure to the point where we can even begin to compete with (or let alone supercede) hisec, we can't. We're limited by the rules of the sandbox from making an empire in nullsec which would be able to compete with hisec, and as such a vast majority of everyone in nullsec do all their moneymaking, production and stocking up in hisec.

This is not as it should be, the imbalance between high, low and null are too vast in the favor of hisec. Nullsec needs to be released from a lot of the restrictions which currently restrain it, and hisec really does need to have some costs increased.

Actually it seems i understand things better than you.

This is a "game"
All aspects of it are modelled on real word mechanisms.

That doesnt mean they are slavishly recreated, but they are made to be similar.

Nulsec has Highsec has
Control/Access Control: high none
Resource availablity: highest lowest
NPC infrastructure: none highest

Nulsec is an unregulated, unrestricted WARZONE

Yes, Industry caters to and supplies military forces, but they don't build thier factories in the warzone ...............

No, you do not.


No, they're not.


Wrong. Nullsec is a place where people go to build an empire. An empire includes people who live there and actually use the space. This should include "factories", and if you're really thinking that nullsec should be nothing but a huge warzone where every system is burning all day erry day, then yes, you really, really do not understand things better than me.

In fact, find out where, on this link, CCP says that nullsec should be nothing but a huge warzone:
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=946

What you seem to be under the impression of is, since nullsec has no NPC infrastructure, nullsec should end up having no manufacturing infrastructure either, I'm telling you that's ********, and that you're wrong, and that we can't spend our own money to build up the manufacturing capability because of huge game mechanic limits which have made nullsec dependent on hisec since the beginning of time.


You don't understand nullsec.

Zim, Kitty Bear, don't make me stop this thread. I will, if you two don't stop acting like children. I'll stop this thread right now, and you can WALK all the way back to GD.

Bad copycat. :colbert:

hoisted by his own petard I believe the phrase is


Tal

There's letters seal'd: and my two schoolfellows,
Whom I will trust as I will adders fang'd,
They bear the mandate; they must sweep my way
And marshal me to knavery. Let it work;
For 'tis the sport to have the enginer
Hoist with his own petard; and 't shall go hard
But I will delve one yard below their mines
And blow them at the moon: O, 'tis most sweet,
When in one line two crafts directly meet.

Just to be anal

lol I hear you like that sort of thing

Tal

Why did I not see that one coming, I must not spend enough time with children

Nulsec is an unregulated, unrestricted WARZONE
Yes, Industry caters to and supplies military forces, but they don't build thier factories in the warzone ...............