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Cave Lord
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Posted - 2011.05.01 07:54:00 -
[1]
I received the latest EON magazine and there was an article on wormholes/Sleepers/Talocan. Regrettably, I don't have the magazine in front of me at the moment. However, near the end, the author mentions being surprised that not many people have tried to map the "path" the Talocan/Sleepers might have taken through Anoikis space.
1) Has anyone tried to do this? If so, how far did you get? 2) Is mapping the path of movement of the Sleepers/Talocan even feasable at the moment?
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.01 09:43:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Cave Lord I received the latest EON magazine and there was an article on wormholes/Sleepers/Talocan. Regrettably, I don't have the magazine in front of me at the moment. However, near the end, the author mentions being surprised that not many people have tried to map the "path" the Talocan/Sleepers might have taken through Anoikis space.
1) Has anyone tried to do this? If so, how far did you get? 2) Is mapping the path of movement of the Sleepers/Talocan even feasable at the moment?
People have tried, but so far most (all?) seem to have failed. If anybody has succeeded they are keeping it very quiet.
However I can tell you there is definitely a pattern, the topology is a logarithmic spiral.
Determining anything useful beyond that is not easy.
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Gosakumori Noh
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Posted - 2011.05.01 20:50:00 -
[3]
The scans are time consuming, covering the galaxy requires consuming the time of a number of people, you are surrounded by a much larger number of other people who don't give a **** about wormholes and range from mildly irritated at your presence to gleefully hostile, and it is far from clear walking the path of the titans produces a result different from randomly popping in and out of wormholes that show up close to you.
The bang-for-buck formula has been further complicated by the question: isn't it more profitable to grind incursions?
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Cave Lord
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Posted - 2011.05.02 01:11:00 -
[4]
As far as I can tell, all other avenues of sleeper research are pretty much dead.
Let's see if we can get something going here then.
Where would we even begin? I haven't the slightest clue, but I'm willing to give things a shot. Anyone else who has taken this up in the past, please share what you have done! :D
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Shoo Dae
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.02 18:54:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Cave Lord I received the latest EON magazine and there was an article on wormholes/Sleepers/Talocan. Regrettably, I don't have the magazine in front of me at the moment. However, near the end, the author mentions being surprised that not many people have tried to map the "path" the Talocan/Sleepers might have taken through Anoikis space.
1) Has anyone tried to do this? If so, how far did you get? 2) Is mapping the path of movement of the Sleepers/Talocan even feasable at the moment?
Cave Lord, when you get the chance, would you mind giving us a direct quote of the passage from the EON magazine that prompted this forum post? I'm intrigued by the the idea but not interested in investing a bunch of time into a dead end. I'd like to get a better sense of what the author said.
-Shoo Dae -------------- Indecision is a terrible thing.
...or is it?
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Cave Lord
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Posted - 2011.05.03 02:48:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Cave Lord on 03/05/2011 02:49:14
Originally by: Shoo Dae
Originally by: Cave Lord I received the latest EON magazine and there was an article on wormholes/Sleepers/Talocan. Regrettably, I don't have the magazine in front of me at the moment. However, near the end, the author mentions being surprised that not many people have tried to map the "path" the Talocan/Sleepers might have taken through Anoikis space.
1) Has anyone tried to do this? If so, how far did you get? 2) Is mapping the path of movement of the Sleepers/Talocan even feasable at the moment?
Cave Lord, when you get the chance, would you mind giving us a direct quote of the passage from the EON magazine that prompted this forum post? I'm intrigued by the the idea but not interested in investing a bunch of time into a dead end. I'd like to get a better sense of what the author said.
-Shoo Dae
Article contributor: Pottsey Text prompting thread: "Considering how much technology we have gained from wormhole space I am surprised more hasn't been done to try to map the path Talocans mitigated to." (typo for *migrated*?)
I noticed that information on WH mapping was, as far as I could tell, was quite spotty at best. For example, in the EVE mystery notes ( http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1486410 ) I read about how the WH's were arranged in a spiral and were at a certain distance from K-space according to the game mechanics. This was completely new to me. I have since read a couple of posts touching on those topics, but even now I'm at a completely loss how anyone came to the conclusion that they are arranged in a kind of spiral. -------------------------------------- tl;dr version: I completely agree with Shoo Dae. I don't like investing a bunch of time on a dead end. This is why I'm asking if anyone had even attempted to map the path that the Talocan/Sleepers took (if any) and then either figure out if we can build on their work or determine if this is do-able at all.
Good posts people!
I'm going to question some of the basics so that I am on the same page as some of the other people here :)
@Wyke Mossari: How do we know it's a spiral? EVE data dump? Dev post?
@Gosakumori Noh: Agreed on not many people would be interested. I've already been doing some exploring on my own, so I'm willing to throw my character in the unknown for this :) Also, it is definitely more profitable to grind incursions, at least unless someone finds something that no one else has. Unfortunately, we just don't know. :(
So my question is: Do you guys think mapping the WH's a feasable project?
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Shoo Dae
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.03 06:18:00 -
[7]
@ Cave Lord
The article contributor is the same Pottsey who frequents these forums? Although I've enjoyed her posts and thoughts in the past, I'll be skeptical that the comment will lead to anything productive. If it had come from a dev, I might think otherwise. But coming from another player, I would not put much energy into the statement. Maybe Pottsey could come in here and expand on her comment?
I'll switch to bitter-vet mode for a minute: I don't think there is anything else for us to discover in the game itself. I don't think there are any secret mechanisms, pathways, routes or information to discover. We probably have all there is to know right in front of us but we have to put it all together in the right sequence. I admire those who can dedicate their time to doing so but I'm worried that speculations and forum posts are as far as we will get with it. The theories and ideas that get discussed here have no effect in the game and won't be validated by game play. By that I don't mean epic loot, I mean even if we figure out the back story, we won't unlock Jovian space or new missions or cosmic sites/anomalies. We will be left, in the end, with a nice story that about 100 Eve players will care about with no relevance to actual in-game activities or game play.
Switching out of bitter-vet mode: I *really want* there to be a mappable route through Anoikis. I want there to be some kind of cool discovery at the end of this maze. I've invested a lot of my play time hoping there is one and trying many different schemes. No luck though.
Still, I am interested in what others have to say. Out of all of the lore discussions on this board, its the idea of in-game discoveries (in this case, mapping)that intrigues me the most.
-Shoo Dae
-------------- Indecision is a terrible thing.
...or is it?
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2011.05.03 06:34:00 -
[8]
There might be a few minor differences between below and Eon as some of the article was edited. This is around about what was written.
" To further complicate matters with the Talocans being a migrant culture it's hard to say if they are extinct. The structures and infrastructure appear to be designed to move with the Talocans between systems. This has caused a bit of an argument on whether they are extinct are not. The difference of technology and age of structures between Talocans sites in Empire and Anoikis match a migrant culture and could mean that perhaps the Talocans and who knows how any others have moved even deeper into unknown space away from New Eden. It's clear the Talocans sites in empire are older and more primitive from a technology point of view then the ones found in Anoikis. With the large technology change between Anoikis and empire sites one has to ask the question what happened in-between?
I would assume the Talocans didn't open portals direct from empire space to Anoikis space but instead migrated that way over many years jumping from system to system. If this is right then in theory if we can map out Anoikis wormhole systems in relation to other wormhole systems and then trace the path the Talocans took across wormhole space. Once this is done we should be able to draw a line back to our space and figure out wormhole systems in relation to our systems. More importantly assuming the Talocans migrated in a semi logical pattern we should be able to figure out the direction migrated to and settle the argument once and for all if they are extinct or not. Considering how much technology we have gained from Wormhole space I am surprise more have not try to predict the path Talocans migrated to. If the Talocans migrated away from known wormhole space then surely there technology kept advancing. The first to predict the path the Talocans took could be the first to find even more advanced technology just sitting out there waiting to be found."
I tried to write the article from an in game researcher perspective. My goal was to think if I was a real life archaeologist looking into an old culture what would I do. It was very hard to write an article that's interesting for the people who already know a lot about the lore yet open and easy to access for the people who have never heard the name Sleepers or wormholes. That and staying within the word limit which I failed at massively.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.03 09:38:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 03/05/2011 09:44:01 Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 03/05/2011 09:42:22
Quote: @Wyke Mossari: How do we know it's a spiral? EVE data dump? Dev post?
The data dump has the loci systems located in a clear spirals, and several possibilities have been raised in these forums, Fermats and Archamides in particular. My own analysis leads me towards a logrithmic spiral because the distance loops/layers seems to be increasing. However Fermats is also rather intriguing as well, it potentially ties in nicely with Istvaan's combination lock theory and the shifting pattern of wormholes between loci.
I did raise a thread, Anoikis Astrometric Expedition, with an idea to try and explore this but it didn't gain much traction.
I did/do want to pursue it but at the moment my feelings very much mirror those Shoo Dae has expressed, I'm intrigued but I'm somewhat disillusioned and largely worn out.
Quote: Do you guys think mapping the WH's a feasable project?/quote]
Yes I do, but I think we need to find some more understanding, find a way to rule out some of the possibilities, that's what my expedition thread was about.
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khazak mokl
Amarr Black Viper Nomads
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Posted - 2011.05.03 15:30:00 -
[10]
Only thing that worrys me about the spiral theory is the names of the sites in the different classes of WH. If you look at it logically then a C6-C5 would be in the middle as there annomilies are mostly called 'core' sites. Then raidiating outwards we have C4-C3 sites called 'frontier' sites. Then finally at the outer edge would be the 'Perimeter sites'. Yet when you look at the data dump map, the perimeter sites are in the middle and the core stuff is on the outskirts. Its a bit backwards unless the map needs to be plotted in a 3D enviroment to see the progression which actually wud make more sense. Any1 good with computer stuff that cud plot this with a piece of software available to all for free if there is such a thing?
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Cave Lord
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Posted - 2011.05.04 04:54:00 -
[11]
Fair statements all.
Yes, I'd love to build on other people's work. However, often times, I feel things get a bit too technical and people get lost in the details. We may end up mounting an expedition, but I think we should take things one step at a time.
Step 0: Relax. Enjoy yourself. Sure this might all be for nothing. But that's just one less thing to think about! Remember Thomas Edison. Step 1: General map and an agreement on what it is we are looking for. (Clues/signs/etc..) Step 2: Figure out what it is we are looking for, (age of structures?/Type of structures/sites?) Step 3: Figure out how to organize and keep track of the data we come across (spreadsheet?) Step 4: Anything else Step 5: Pack up and go on a space trip. (Don't forget to document!)
Concerning maps: I dug up this map: from: This Thread ---> Can anyone verify if this is at least a reasonably accurate (up-to-date) map? (Or if I totally flubbed on finding a map? :) It does look very much like the K-space map...
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.04 09:42:00 -
[12]
I've just uploaded my data dump of the wormhole map data to a Google spreadsheet.
Wormhole data.
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Cave Lord
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Posted - 2011.05.04 22:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
I've just uploaded my data dump of the wormhole map data to a Google spreadsheet.
Wormhole data.
Now that's what I'm talking about mate. With stuff like this, we can correlate findings to systems and look for patterns. Well done.
Hypnotik's quote in his post reminded me that there may yet be a pattern to these wormhole things that we haven't discovered yet. I think it's also important to map our travels *through* wormhole space. A handy tool might be found here (Java program). With it, we can search the WH name/loci and plot it.
Thoughts so far?
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.06 06:35:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Wyke Mossari
I've just uploaded my data dump of the wormhole map data to a Google spreadsheet.
Wormhole data.
If anybody wants edit rights to add extra data or columns you will need a Google account and then you can send a request through the sharing button top right of the page.
However the data set is so big it is sluggish to edit within Google, a few columns are hidden from view to make it more responsive, but that doesn't help much.
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Avaan Eclipse
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.06 16:27:00 -
[15]
Plotting the systems in 3D is completely uninteresting. The map posted earlier is the YZ-plane, and the systems have a random distribution in the Y-coordinate. Pictures below.
XY-plane XZ-plane YZ-plane 3D perspective shot
The spatial distribution of the systems outside the YZ-plane is probably a dead end.
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Cave Lord
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Posted - 2011.05.06 23:08:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Avaan Eclipse Plotting the systems in 3D is completely uninteresting. The map posted earlier is the YZ-plane, and the systems have a random distribution in the Y-coordinate. Pictures below.
XY-plane XZ-plane YZ-plane 3D perspective shot
The spatial distribution of the systems outside the YZ-plane is probably a dead end.
Did you do this? Not bad I must say! I agree that trying to find stuff outside the planes is a complete dead end. Seems like we have our map and CCP is only concerned with the "top down" view of the map. This makes is slightly easier by only having to map on a 2-D plane.
Now that we have our map and a general idea of how to use it:
What exactly would we be looking for? I was thinking: - Age of structures - Type of structures/sites. - Age of Drones - Systems that have Talocan structures - Systems that do not have Talocan structures
The "age" of the drones might be a good bet as it practically tells us in the description. Thoughts so far? Feel free to add to the list. :)
Also, if anyone has already done some of this work (such as noting which systems lack Talocan Presence), please, feel free to post and link to them.
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Arvash
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.05.06 23:41:00 -
[17]
Do we know where the Talocan started from? Amarr? Tash-Murkon? Somewhere Gallente?
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Ellis Croix
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Posted - 2011.05.07 05:27:00 -
[18]
"It's a locus."
First, whereabouts, if those images are superimposed, would the center of the spiral be if both w-space and k-space were in New Eden? Second, let's say that the energy to create a wormhole is exactly the same for each and every wormhole. Would the difference in time open and capacity to transfer be indicative of distance traveled?
Just some random thoughts, maybe they might help someone a little better at math than me.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.07 12:36:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Avaan Eclipse Plotting the systems in 3D is completely uninteresting. The map posted earlier is the YZ-plane, and the systems have a random distribution in the Y-coordinate. Pictures below.
XY-plane XZ-plane YZ-plane 3D perspective shot
The spatial distribution of the systems outside the YZ-plane is probably a dead end.
Perhaps, checkout Riemann surface
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Tsual
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.05.07 12:48:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Avaan Eclipse Plotting the systems in 3D is completely uninteresting. The map posted earlier is the YZ-plane, and the systems have a random distribution in the Y-coordinate. Pictures below.
XY-plane XZ-plane YZ-plane 3D perspective shot
The spatial distribution of the systems outside the YZ-plane is probably a dead end.
Looks a bit like they are distributed in some kind of "tubes". The distribution of stars in the last pictures looks somewhat unnatural.
YZ-plane is not dead it reminds me of dopple-slit distribution.
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Avaan Eclipse
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.07 13:47:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tsual Edited by: Tsual on 07/05/2011 12:51:44
Originally by: Avaan Eclipse Plotting the systems in 3D is completely uninteresting. The map posted earlier is the YZ-plane, and the systems have a random distribution in the Y-coordinate. Pictures below.
XY-plane XZ-plane YZ-plane 3D perspective shot
The spatial distribution of the systems outside the YZ-plane is probably a dead end.
Looks a bit like they are distributed in some kind of "tubes". The distribution of stars in the last pictures looks somewhat unnatural.
YZ-plane reminds me of dopple-slit distribution.
They are distributed in tubes and you see them quite clearly in the XZ-plane picture. I meant XZ-plane when I said YZ-plane in the previous post. Apologies for that.
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Tsual
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.05.07 15:16:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Tsual on 07/05/2011 15:20:37
Originally by: Avaan Eclipse
Originally by: Tsual Edited by: Tsual on 07/05/2011 12:51:44
Originally by: Avaan Eclipse Plotting the systems in 3D is completely uninteresting. The map posted earlier is the YZ-plane, and the systems have a random distribution in the Y-coordinate. Pictures below.
XY-plane XZ-plane YZ-plane 3D perspective shot
The spatial distribution of the systems outside the YZ-plane is probably a dead end.
Looks a bit like they are distributed in some kind of "tubes". The distribution of stars in the last pictures looks somewhat unnatural.
YZ-plane reminds me of dopple-slit distribution.
They are distributed in tubes and you see them quite clearly in the XZ-plane picture. I meant XZ-plane when I said YZ-plane in the previous post. Apologies for that.
In conclusion what ever created or lead to the creation of the wormhole network, existed or moved on a straight line or is a secondary effect of an effect that happened on or along a straight path.
Looking at another map (I hope this is a correct map) that there are no wormholes at the position of the eve gate. This leaves open to speculate if the wormhole "tunnels" coexist along a path that follows the eve gate?
If this hypothesis is correct, then the path following the spiral might not be the path to the destination yet rather the path through history. Well still this thought could be just a dead end.
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Hesperius
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Posted - 2011.05.07 18:24:00 -
[23]
I find this information very interesting. I think I know where it beings, I have somewhat of a clue how to decrypt it, and I think I know where it leads. Lets see if I can get this goes anywhere.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2011.05.07 19:56:00 -
[24]
I'm up for any expeditions anyone's planning. I know there's gold at the end of the rainbow!
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Arvash
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.05.08 02:46:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ellis Croix "It's a locus."
First, whereabouts, if those images are superimposed, would the center of the spiral be if both w-space and k-space were in New Eden? Second, let's say that the energy to create a wormhole is exactly the same for each and every wormhole. Would the difference in time open and capacity to transfer be indicative of distance traveled?
Just some random thoughts, maybe they might help someone a little better at math than me.
I've done the in-game math around finding the precise center of the ring of shattered planets and it lies somewhere off-grid between Tash-Murkon Prime and Saminer, likely near Asesamy. That was the root of my question.
I think that this 'center' is a likely spot for the 'center' of w-space as well. I don't know how common wormholes are in most systems, but I spent four days in Saminer and never found less than two wormholes present. This also seems to make things line up well over other storyline hotspots like T-IPZB in Delve.
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Orphan World
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Posted - 2011.05.09 08:31:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Avaan Eclipse Plotting the systems in 3D is completely uninteresting. The map posted earlier is the YZ-plane, and the systems have a random distribution in the Y-coordinate. Pictures below.
XY-plane XZ-plane YZ-plane 3D perspective shot
The spatial distribution of the systems outside the YZ-plane is probably a dead end.
I started looking into the importance of some Anoikis terminology, and coupled with the apparent rough tubular shape of W-space regions, this one image stood out to me.
Locus in genetics.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.09 09:56:00 -
[27]
I've been doing some statistical analysing the data over the week-end, mostly looking for correlations between columns.
The majority of correlations so far have been +/- 0.01-0.04, which is very low and can be ruled out as (random) noise.
SizeWH ClassCORREL(X)CORREL(Y)CORREL(Z) Size10.01-0.020.01-0.04 Class0.011-0.14-0.010.05 X-0.02-0.141-0.010.05 Y0.01-0.01-0.0110.02 Z-0.040.050.050.021 (Ignore the 1's they are just to validate my calcs by making sure each column correlates with it's self.)
There is one correlation of 0.14, which while small is just high enough to suggest it is probably significant. This is between the solarSystemX and the wormhole class. The further away from the point of origin the more likely of a wormhole class is higher. However the low level of correlation suggests that the relationship is not linear.
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Tsual
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.05.09 14:53:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Tsual on 09/05/2011 14:54:03
Originally by: Orphan World Edited by: Orphan World on 09/05/2011 08:55:00
Originally by: Avaan Eclipse Plotting the systems in 3D is completely uninteresting. The map posted earlier is the YZ-plane, and the systems have a random distribution in the Y-coordinate. Pictures below.
XY-plane XZ-plane YZ-plane 3D perspective shot
The spatial distribution of the systems outside the YZ-plane is probably a dead end.
I started looking into the importance of some Anoikis terminology, and coupled with the apparent rough tubular shape of W-space regions, this one image stood out to me.
Locus in genetics.
EDIT: also this
The question that opens up form me is why is a space called with the same term as a form of programmed cell death?
On second note has anyone yet tried to find a relation between complex numbers and the locus?
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.09 16:50:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 09/05/2011 16:50:58
Originally by: Tsual
The question that opens up form me is why is a space called with the same term as a form of programmed cell death?
Rouge Drones (Perhaps Sleepers) are Von Neumann Machines; one possible risk of these is they become Berserker; to avoid these literally taking over the universe you need to include a kill switch.
There one possible interpretation of Anoikis could be: Programmed Cell Death for cellular automata.
Originally by: Tsual
On second note has anyone yet tried to find a relation between complex numbers and the locus?
Tried, yes.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.11 18:04:00 -
[30]
I've been thinking about the Loci/System Names, first a recap of what (I think) I know.
On the surface they resemble astronomic EPOCH, however they lack the additional Celestial coordinates data necessary to make them a true observation.
Therefore to be useful for outbound navigation we lack two additional items of information. What is the celestial plane and a reference point for zero(midnight).
My conclusion is that the loci cannot be an outward bound signpost.
The part we have available is the time-stamp element. In conventional astronomy this is the time of the observation (sometimes the first discovery).
The loci appear to be a 24Hour clock which also varies from standard epoc which is a Julian year.
This could represent the time of discovery. However given the long history of New Eden, this seems implausible.
If they are within a spinning spiral galaxy, it could represent their position at some fixed point in time. Given the evidence at hand this seems to be the most plausible explanation.
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