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Some early feedback on Agent/Quality/Division changes

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Mocam	Posted - 2011.05.09 03:56:00 - [1] First, I realize that this is just the first-pass change. Whether it will changer further or not, I have no clue. Next, this is only from a couple dozen missions testing. There may be chances for other mission types to pop up but they seem very small. Also payout stuff... hard to determine when I haven't shifted agents in a while. Overall; I see it as a mixed bag of changes. Somethings good, some not so good. This set of changes will effect a great deal of the current game in many ways. From locator agent access, used to find others across EVE; through T2 production. Lots of subtle changes from this. Agent Quality removal: R&D agents are all -20 quality for RP earnings. Plain and simple: Ouch. The current effective quality of all agents is -20 so those used to higher pay from agents, may find it differs a bit. I have 10.0 standings with an agent and I didn't really notice a payout difference from TQ to SiSi for missions - this may indicate a change in how standings effect pay vs agent quality in the formula. Unknown and needs testing. If you can access a group's agents of a level, you can access ALL their agents of that level. Consolidation of divisions: The collapse of corporate divisions, again, will cause some rather serious mutters among many though it "looks cool". Change anything and someone gripes: It's how many that make it a big or small issue. Examples: Gicodel is a popular SoE hub for mission running. That L4 agent's division is now Distribution so only gives out courier missions - no more combat missions. Center for Advanced Study has 1 corp division - distribution. Only courier missions from any of their agents - no more kill missions at all. Conversely many will like other changes - R&D corporations have 3-4 different divisions. Security being among them (kill missions) with Distribution (only courier missions) and some with Mining divisions (only mining missions) - along with the R&D. This change will allow additional players to work towards R&D without having to getting missions they aren't trained (SP wise) towards. The types of missions by new divsions: Distribution = courier Mining = mining Security = encounter (kill missions) (the old rough percentages are based upon 'well know collected information' - I adjusted a bit for the 0.xx% up to 1% type stuff but it shouldn't make a big difference for "general" information. itallic = "different focus" for main mission types. Underline = the current primary types.) All the following move to Distribution: Advisory (47% Courier, 52% Encounter, 1% Trade) Personnel (34% Courier, 56% Encounter, 1% Mining) Public Relations (38% Courier, 61% Encounter, 1% Mining) Accounting (91% Courier, 9% Encouter) Archives (92% Courier, 6% Encounter, 1% Mining, 1% Trade) Distribution (79% Courier, 20% Encounter) Financial (70% Courier, 30% Encounter) Marketing (56% Courier, 43% Encounter) Production (90% Courier, 6% Encounter, 2% Mining, 1% Trade) Storage (79% Courier, 19% Encounter, 2% Trade) All the following move to Security: Administration (23% Courier, 76% Encounter, 1% Trade) Command (4% Courier, 95% Encounter, 1% Mining) Intelligence (11% Courier, 89% Encounter) Internal Security (2% Courier, 98% Encounter) Legal (16% Courier, 84% Encounter) Security (3% Courier, 96% Encounter, 1% Trade) Surveillance (7% Courier, 93% Encounter, 1% Trade) All the following move to Mining: Astrosurveying (37% Courier, 58% Encounter, 2% Mining, 2% Trade) Manufacturing (82% Courier, 11% Encounter, 4% Mining, 3% Trade) Mining (41% Courier, 24% Encounter, 28% Mining, 7% Trade) Hopefully this helps a bit.
Kamikaze jihawt	Posted - 2011.05.09 10:27:00 - [2] I do not like -20 for all agents. To me this is a *** move by CCP. What is also a *** move is removing all skills increasing LP payout. This is plain and simple, THE BIGGEST NERF TO MISSIONS! I'm not just saying to lvl 4 high sec missions, I'm saying to ALL missions, it doesn't matter the lvl, or system sec rating, it's a tragedy imo. Maybe I'll just unsub and wait for swtor so that I can reexplore the five year old in me while I swing around a bright and shiny sword.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.09 11:23:00 - [3] Originally by: Mocam Agent Quality removal: R&D agents are all -20 quality for RP earnings. Plain and simple: Ouch. I have tested this and I get different results. Note that you need to contact every R&D agent to get the update values. If you don't do that you get different values. My results with level 4 agents, 5 in the relevant science fields and 5 in negotiation is 97.20 RP. That give the agent an effective quality of 20 after negotiation is applied. That number is a bit strange as negotiation should add +5 each level to the agent effective quality. so apparently the R&D agents start at -5 EQ or the skill is applied differently.
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol	Posted - 2011.05.09 19:56:00 - [4] Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 09/05/2011 19:56:52 Originally by: Mocam All the following move to Distribution: Advisory (47% Courier, 52% Encounter, 1% Trade) Personnel (34% Courier, 56% Encounter, 1% Mining) Public Relations (38% Courier, 61% Encounter, 1% Mining) That's a lot of ouch! A lot of corporations only have highsec Personnel, PR or Advisory agents, now they will cease to have any combat agents. No more Amarr Navy (!!!!) or Royal Amarr Institute (semi-)combat agents left! Can't they just split those agnets in two new agents, one combat and one distribution?
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2011.05.09 20:11:00 - [5] Originally by: Kamikaze jihawt I do not like -20 for all agents. To me this is a ***** move by CCP. I think, "-20" is an exaggeration, or a "meaningful approximation", if you wish. In terms of game mechanics, with upcoming changes (read again: agents don't have quality now at all) this solely means that you can access any agent of a given level once you reach given corporation standing towards you, and your personal standing with agent means... more? I think so. That'd be the only limiting factor in agent accessibility, when you loose corp standing. Unless they remove agent personal standing, like they did it to R&D agents previously. Speaking of R&D agents, I'd take a close look at 'em once I get auth on SiSi. And patcher finish it's work. -- Thanks CCP for cu
Valerie Valate Amarr Church of The Crimson Saviour	Posted - 2011.05.09 22:01:00 - [6] changing the "personnel" division to 100% courier has quite a big effect to the 0.0 pirate faction corps. _________________________________________
Kate Bear	Posted - 2011.05.09 22:11:00 - [7] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Mocam Agent Quality removal: R&D agents are all -20 quality for RP earnings. Plain and simple: Ouch. I have tested this and I get different results. Note that you need to contact every R&D agent to get the update values. If you don't do that you get different values. My results with level 4 agents, 5 in the relevant science fields and 5 in negotiation is 97.20 RP. That give the agent an effective quality of 20 after negotiation is applied. That number is a bit strange as negotiation should add +5 each level to the agent effective quality. so apparently the R&D agents start at -5 EQ or the skill is applied differently. According the formula on eve wiki it's agent quality and not effective quality that's used in the current RP formula. It would seem from what you're saying that they're now using EQ to calculate it. Looks like I'll have to do those R&D missions after all
Glyken Touchon Independent Alchemists	Posted - 2011.05.09 22:18:00 - [8] could someone with access to the datadump work out how this will affect the total number of kill agents for each faction? I'm thinking some of the strange looking consolidation may be to work on the faction balance
Seamus Donohue Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.09 22:41:00 - [9] Most likely, this is a first draft. I doubt CCP is going to push the current Singularity setup onto Tranquility, so we probably have time to recommend changes. Some agents will need to have their divisions manually adjusted so that the distribution of mission types makes more sense. I think all of the school corporations (Center for Advanced Studies, Republic Military School, and so on) are currently Advisory only and it might be a good idea to make some of them Distribution and some of them Security. For corporations that have very few agents of a particular level, it might be a good idea to add a few extra agents to their stations.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:37:00 - [10] Originally by: Kate Bear According the formula on eve wiki it's agent quality and not effective quality that's used in the current RP formula. It would seem from what you're saying that they're now using EQ to calculate it. Looks like I'll have to do those R&D missions after all Check again the equation for Effective Quality before telling us that it's not used in RP calculation. -- Thanks CCP for cu

Richard Koslinsky	Posted - 2011.05.10 02:16:00 - [11] Has anyone even thought how this is going to screw with the market? If people get less LP, than anything faction at all's prices are going to go through the roof. Even just faction ammo.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.10 06:37:00 - [12] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 10/05/2011 06:38:23 Originally by: Kate Bear Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Mocam Agent Quality removal: R&D agents are all -20 quality for RP earnings. Plain and simple: Ouch. I have tested this and I get different results. Note that you need to contact every R&D agent to get the update values. If you don't do that you get different values. My results with level 4 agents, 5 in the relevant science fields and 5 in negotiation is 97.20 RP. That give the agent an effective quality of 20 after negotiation is applied. That number is a bit strange as negotiation should add +5 each level to the agent effective quality. so apparently the R&D agents start at -5 EQ or the skill is applied differently. According the formula on eve wiki it's agent quality and not effective quality that's used in the current RP formula. It would seem from what you're saying that they're now using EQ to calculate it. Looks like I'll have to do those R&D missions after all It as always been agent effective quality. Simply, till relatively recent times, only your social skill affected R&D agent quality. Some time ago CCP changed it so that running R&D missions increase your standing with the agent, and if that get high enough you get a higher EQ. Edit: EVE Wiki formula: ((Agent Skill + Your Skill)^2 * (1 + Effective Quality / 100)) * Area Bonus
Kate Bear	Posted - 2011.05.10 12:33:00 - [13] I've been using: Quote: The RP that you will accumulate are based on only three factors: your field-specific skill level, base quality of the agent, and the agent level. RP/day = Field multiplier * (1 + (AQ + 5N)/100) (SS + AL)^2 AQ = Agent Quality N = character's Negotiation skill level SS = character's specialist science field level (eg "Quantum Physics") AL = Agent Level From the Evelopedia here. This doesn't seem to take standings into account so you can see where my confusion comes from. Or I just can't read, which is always a possibility.
The Huffarunier Gallente Airport Monkeys	Posted - 2011.05.10 13:14:00 - [14] Thank you for doing all that research. I do not operate out of mission hubs so I'm looking at having to relocate two JCs about 5 jumps from their current location to a new mission location with the proper agents. Sucks... About the R&D agents; do you mean the R&D agent itself or the corporation. I only have one R&D agent that makes 195.51 Rp per day ( I ignore his requests for daily missions) who is in the R&D division of the corporation. Many R&D corporations have more than just the R&D division.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2011.05.10 13:50:00 - [15] Originally by: Kate Bear I've been using: Quote: The RP that you will accumulate are based on only three factors: your field-specific skill level, base quality of the agent, and the agent level. RP/day = Field multiplier * (1 + (AQ + 5N)/100) (SS + AL)^2 AQ = Agent Quality N = character's Negotiation skill level SS = character's specialist science field level (eg "Quantum Physics") AL = Agent Level From the Evelopedia here. This doesn't seem to take standings into account so you can see where my confusion comes from. Or I just can't read, which is always a possibility. (1 + (AQ + 5*N)/100) is THE Effective Quality formula. Look: http://wiki.eve-id.net/Equations#Mission_Equations The very first equation: EQ = AQ + 5 + Neg + PersonalStanding With absence of Personal standing from R&D agents, it is brought down to EQ = AQ + 5 + Neg Also look one equation up there. -- Thanks CCP for cu
Kate Bear	Posted - 2011.05.10 14:16:00 - [16] Originally by: Tonto Auri Originally by: Kate Bear I've been using: Quote: The RP that you will accumulate are based on only three factors: your field-specific skill level, base quality of the agent, and the agent level. RP/day = Field multiplier * (1 + (AQ + 5N)/100) (SS + AL)^2 AQ = Agent Quality N = character's Negotiation skill level SS = character's specialist science field level (eg "Quantum Physics") AL = Agent Level From the Evelopedia here. This doesn't seem to take standings into account so you can see where my confusion comes from. Or I just can't read, which is always a possibility. (1 + (AQ + 5*N)/100) is THE Effective Quality formula. Look: http://wiki.eve-id.net/Equations#Mission_Equations The very first equation: EQ = AQ + 5 + Neg + PersonalStanding With absence of Personal standing from R&D agents, it is brought down to EQ = AQ + 5 + Neg Also look one equation up there. thanks for clearing that up for me.
Destamon Azure Freelancers	Posted - 2011.05.11 11:59:00 - [17] Originally by: Richard Koslinsky Has anyone even thought how this is going to screw with the market? If people get less LP, than anything faction at all's prices are going to go through the roof. Even just faction ammo. That's what I'm fervently hoping for. In reality, the changes to LP are probably not enough to significantly affect the market.

CCP Soundwave C C P Alliance	Posted - 2011.05.11 13:54:00 - [18] All agents will pay out like +20. If you have a specific agent that's broken, please tell me which one so we can verify.

Sarmatiko	Posted - 2011.05.11 14:04:00 - [19] Originally by: CCP Soundwave If you have a specific agent that's broken, please tell me which one so we can verify. Nothing wrong with payouts. What about broken Personnel/Advisory divisions? Converting them from "combat with courier" to "only courier" type is strange and frustrating for many of us.
larry hotter bigpants	Posted - 2011.05.11 17:05:00 - [20] Originally by: Sarmatiko Originally by: CCP Soundwave If you have a specific agent that's broken, please tell me which one so we can verify. Nothing wrong with payouts. What about broken Personnel/Advisory divisions? Converting them from "combat with courier" to "only courier" type is strange and frustrating for many of us. I'd say move them into a new category called logistics with a 50%/50% chance of combat courier.

Hans Jagerblitzen Autocannons Anonymous	Posted - 2011.05.11 17:35:00 - [21] Is there anyone (a Dev would be great) who can clarify or summarize what exactly is being changed? Or what the general idea being tested is? I hadn't heard anything about agent mechanics being changed till a corp member starting going off last night about LP payout nerfs, removal of connection skills, and agent quality being reset to -20.... So far all I've found on the forums is panicked and/or hazy responses to changes that apparently just appeared on Sisi. I'm not a Sisi veteran, so maybe stuff like this happens all the time and doesn't always make it to Tranq. However, I'm also used to little bulletins at least saying "we're thinking about changing _______ go check it out". Anyways, not trying to gripe, just trying to cut through all the number-crunching and get to the big picture on this issue. Messing with LP payouts has rather crazy market and gameplay ramifications, so naturally I'm with the crowd that's uneasy about something like this just slipping through without the major EvE player base who's NOT on Sisi forums being informed.... This sounds like a rebalancing/streamlining, and not an across-the-board nerf as people assuming the worse fear, but it would be nice to know where CCP is headed with this. Thanks guys!
ivar R'dhak Minmatar	Posted - 2011.05.11 17:36:00 - [22] Edited by: ivar R''dhak on 11/05/2011 17:46:39 Originally by: larry hotter bigpants I'd say move them into a new category called logistics with a 50%/50% chance of combat courier. I think you¦re slightly missing the point of this whole drama. As does CCP btw, with moving 50%+ encounter divisions into courier. *BAD* CCP! rolls up paper Originally by:* Hans Jagerblitzen This sounds like a rebalancing/streamlining, and not an across-the-board nerf as people assuming the worse fear, but it would be nice to know where CCP is headed with this. Thanks guys! Yes. That¦s what it¦s supposed to be judging from the announcements at fanfest and from recent Dev posts. The ultimate reason was to remove the annoying mechanic of wanting to do kill missions only but suddenly having a mining mission etc. The other main reason was to break up the current high-sec mission hubs and give the player the freedom to choose his agents. Though currently it looks like high sec hubs will be replaced by 0.5 sec hubs. ______________ Mal-¦Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-`Big damn heroes, sir.` Mal-¦Aint we just.¦
Mocam	Posted - 2011.05.11 20:17:00 - [23] Originally by: Hans Jagerblitzen Is there anyone (a Dev would be great) who can clarify or summarize what exactly is being changed? Or what the general idea being tested is? I hadn't heard anything about agent mechanics being changed till a corp member starting going off last night about LP payout nerfs, removal of connection skills, and agent quality being reset to -20.... So far all I've found on the forums is panicked and/or hazy responses to changes that apparently just appeared on Sisi. I'm not a Sisi veteran, so maybe stuff like this happens all the time and doesn't always make it to Tranq. However, I'm also used to little bulletins at least saying "we're thinking about changing _______ go check it out". Anyways, not trying to gripe, just trying to cut through all the number-crunching and get to the big picture on this issue. Messing with LP payouts has rather crazy market and gameplay ramifications, so naturally I'm with the crowd that's uneasy about something like this just slipping through without the major EvE player base who's NOT on Sisi forums being informed.... This sounds like a rebalancing/streamlining, and not an across-the-board nerf as people assuming the worse fear, but it would be nice to know where CCP is headed with this. Thanks guys! I'm sure they have something together on this but the changes may be documented at a later stage than what is currently out on SiSi to be reviewed. As the changes are rolled out, we'll probably/hopefully see documentation on what is going on. That is why I put at the start of my post the "early" stuff and that I'd only been able to test it in a limited fashion. Prior to release, I think we'll see most of this explained - it's a lot to change and will impact a large portion of the community. Some stuff is a bit flaky - as with the R&D agents and RP earnings. A quick chat with the agent, remote or in person, will adjust it but it showed in my log as having bottomed out. So on and so forth. As I said: A it was a quick check and running batches of missions -AND- looking up on the web what the agents "were" vs what they now are; that took a while and I'm not QA for CCP, just a player, with other things in life to deal with. Display & effects may vary a bit and this will come out more IF people log in and check it out. BTW - any change to anything and the forums panic over "hazy" info: even if it's stated "this isn't totally accurate"... Human nature stuff and yes, there are things that show here that never make it live. Some would have been appreciated (new toolbar), others not so appreciated - have never made it live. This one, I think will go live - probably tweaked a bit more.
Ghurthe	Posted - 2011.05.11 20:40:00 - [24] Hrm... I wish CCP would give us a heads up about what's going on with this. I'd very much like to know how extensive this nerf is what it will mean for LP pay out and such. Can we get a little more feedback from CCP?
King Rothgar Path of the Fallen	Posted - 2011.05.11 20:45:00 - [25] I haven't posted in this thread but since it seems to be the main one on this topic, I'll summarize what I've said elsewhere as I have done some testing with it. The lvl5 agent in auga (0.4 sec) on TQ pays a bit over 73k LP per mission with lvl5 connection skills. On sisi without connection skills it pays 60483 LP per mission. Since the connection skills are still availible in the LP store, I repurchased and retrained them using the reimbursed SP. They did not increase the LP awarded. Additionally, it appears standings in no way affect payouts. So that hasn't changed. The agent's standing requirements have been set to that of -20 agents but as previously said, their actual quality has been boosted to 20. This incidentally is probably why lvl5's didn't take the full 33% LP hit from the loss of the LP skills. All lvl5's on TQ are currently Q12 so the increase to Q20 partially compensates (though not fully as shown). The exact LP reduction appears to be 17-18% for the lvl5 agents tested. I have not tested how lvl4 agents faired yet. System security status does still impact LP payouts. The lvl5 agent in saghtogas (0.3 sec) pays 65k LP on sisi while the previously mentioned auga (0.4 sec) agent pays 60k. This seems to hold with how TQ currently handles it. On TQ the sahtogas agent pays 78k LP while the auga agent pays 73k LP. Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig.
Tonto Auri Vhero' Multipurpose Corp	Posted - 2011.05.11 21:08:00 - [26] Originally by: Ghurthe Hrm... I wish CCP would give us a heads up about what's going on with this. I'd very much like to know how extensive this nerf is what it will mean for LP pay out and such. Can we get a little more feedback from CCP? Not much of a nerf. You can count it by taking out relevant variables from equation. All data is in this topic already, the most bital was just given out by CCP. -- Thanks CCP for cu
Hans Jagerblitzen Autocannons Anonymous	Posted - 2011.05.11 22:31:00 - [27] Originally by: Mocam BTW - any change to anything and the forums panic over "hazy" info: even if it's stated "this isn't totally accurate"... Human nature stuff and yes, there are things that show here that never make it live. Some would have been appreciated (new toolbar), others not so appreciated - have never made it live. This one, I think will go live - probably tweaked a bit more. Oh yeah, I'm not panicking myself either, I just mean that's what everyone will do in the meantime without a clear statement of what the intention is behind this, and what exactly they plan to change... I hope the eve community at large gets an announcement that the changes are even being tested, I think at the moment only the fraction of players who read forums or play with SiSi, or who went to fanfest, have noticed that this is even on the table for discussion. I'm right there with you in that this needs to be cleared with the broader public first, as we're talking about most players' primary isk income here. Even IF they nerf LP payout, you could make the case that supply and demand will mediate some of the potential income worries. Less LP SHOULD translate into higher prices for LP goods on the market, but who knows. And thank you Mocam, and everyone else, who can spare the time to look into this.
Voddick	Posted - 2011.05.11 22:39:00 - [28] Since we are looking at agent bugs here. How about adding a single storyline agent to 'The Interbus' faction. You can mission all you want for them and never get a storyline mission, because they forgot to make one.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.05.11 23:42:00 - [29] Edited by: Grimpak on 11/05/2011 23:42:21 advisory, personnel and public relations should be moved to kill missions tbh and production to mining too. as it is, this means pretty much 50% of the agents will become courier agents. afaik? --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Kuronaga Kantian Principle	Posted - 2011.05.12 00:07:00 - [30] so theres no point in doing lowsec/nullsec missions then?



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