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End of the Unprobeable Tengu PVE Domination?

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Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.05.12 11:14:00 - [61] Quote: The way missions are designed at the moment it's really like a turkey shoot. The missioner has 0 chance of survival with the current npc AI if he gets probed out. A good prober will do that in 5 seconds. Add npc tackle to that and it's easy mode for the ganker. There is 0% chance of you getting probed from the time the ship hits local to 5 seconds. Literally. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
Dzajic Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.12 11:54:00 - [62] Using magic crystal ball I predict yet again massive "nerf high sec missions" outcry in couple of months; as always due to drop of potential victims in losec and 0.0 It is only constant in EVE. Pirats keep demanding more targets and less ways for victims to escape; end with less pray then they had before, and start demanding more pirate orientated tweaks. Anyone who is really in it for the isk and wants 100% security can just do empire industry and trading and never even undock. Polished content =/= broken and unbalanced content.
IskPlease	Posted - 2011.05.12 12:08:00 - [63] Originally by: Cipher Jones Quote: The way missions are designed at the moment it's really like a turkey shoot. The missioner has 0 chance of survival with the current npc AI if he gets probed out. A good prober will do that in 5 seconds. Add npc tackle to that and it's easy mode for the ganker. There is 0% chance of you getting probed from the time the ship hits local to 5 seconds. Literally. Probing literally starts when the probes are out, not when the scout hits local.
Target Painter Minmatar	Posted - 2011.05.12 12:15:00 - [64] Originally by: Dzajic Using magic crystal ball I predict yet again massive "nerf high sec missions" outcry in couple of months; as always due to drop of potential victims in losec and 0.0 Anyone who talks of "nerfing high sec missions" at this point is flat out re-tar-ded. Incursions (in high sec) are hosing raw isk into player pockets at a rate of 50-100M/h. And we aren't talking high SP, PvE-specialized characters either. 6M SP, logi IV players are being carried along by 10M SP dudes with meta 4 large turrets (but a pirate faction BS ofc) and getting isk/h comparable to what max skilled Golem pilots had to really try hard for. This is before the LP conversion, but I have no reason to believe CONCORD LP is less valuable than other kinds (but admittedly, I haven't gotten deep into researching it). Before only WH'ers could expect to pull that much, none of it in raw isk and only with exceptional danger.
Azhpol Gallente Casa Del Wombat	Posted - 2011.05.12 12:44:00 - [65] Originally by: C0mbat W0mbat Originally by: Magnus Witchspace Surely there are simple techniques to use to continue risk-free missioning in lowsec? Warp to mission location. MWD to at least 30kms from beacon. Shoot NPCs while remaining aligned at all times. Warp out if any uninvited guests arrive. What could possibly go wrong? ;) As a pirate I would warpin cloaked, wait at the gate to next stage of the mission, then when the mission runner is not aligned to anything because he is heading for the gate, decloak, attack OR warp to next stage right after the mission ship (needs some timing to cope for different align speed) and attack him off-guard in next area, while he may even have auto-aggro from the rats As I said before, if D-Scan gets automated, no prblem with not being unscannable anymore, If I see probes, I can GTFO. But clicking the same button every 5 seconds is just bad game design. Your cloak tricks don't work, you can't enter a mission deadspace cloaked(you land on top of a beacon that will decloak you when you come out of the acc gate) ----------------------------------------------- I don't post on an alt, I post on my forum main!
Lady Go Diveher	Posted - 2011.05.12 13:11:00 - [66] Originally by: Azhpol Your cloak tricks don't work, you can't enter a mission deadspace cloaked(you land on top of a beacon that will decloak you when you come out of the acc gate) Yep, plus you can always just jettison a can and abandon some T1 lights on the warpin point... It's already safe enough if the runner isn't a tard.
Jack Abramof	Posted - 2011.05.12 14:26:00 - [67] Originally by: C0mbat W0mbat As a pirate I would warpin cloaked, wait at the gate to next stage of the mission, then when the mission runner is not aligned to anything because he is heading for the gate, decloak, attack OR warp to next stage right after the mission ship (needs some timing to cope for different align speed) and attack him off-guard in next area, while he may even have auto-aggro from the rats Very good idea, lol. please decloak when im in a T2 autopest on a mission site to see how well it goes -))) I can assure you you're gonna be in your pod really fast.
Ghurthe	Posted - 2011.05.12 14:32:00 - [68] Originally by: Jack Abramof Originally by: C0mbat W0mbat As a pirate I would warpin cloaked, wait at the gate to next stage of the mission, then when the mission runner is not aligned to anything because he is heading for the gate, decloak, attack OR warp to next stage right after the mission ship (needs some timing to cope for different align speed) and attack him off-guard in next area, while he may even have auto-aggro from the rats Very good idea, lol. please decloak when im in a T2 autopest on a mission site to see how well it goes -))) I can assure you you're gonna be in your pod really fast. Arazu, Pilgrim, Falcon... just need one of those and one decent damage dealer and well... that's all she wrote for any missioner.
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2011.05.12 15:24:00 - [69] Edited by: Wacktopia on 12/05/2011 15:26:21 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: ValentinaDLM Honestly this frustrates me, as a person who runs missions in 0.0 CCP is telling me 3 things, 1. go run incursions, because screw your prosansha posistion, this is no sandbox, you want isk support concord. We don't care about pirate missions and never did. 2. You really want to run them even with the weak crap in the pirate LP stores? better do it with a bunch of people cause we are taking the one counter to probing away that isn't cloaking, so go AFK cloak like everyone else. 3. Since we are removing a good reason to fly a tengu, go fly a drake. Gurista jamming? FOF fly a drake, Sleepers neuting, passive tank fly a drake, sleepers nomming on your drones, fly a drake. worried about losing an expensive battleship in 0.0, fly a drake. You don't want to be probed, AFK cloak in a drake, play some other game that is fun while people lose intrest in probing you. All this will lead to is people having more risk averse behaviour an staying in high sec, if CCP doesn't see that then the are fools. People only risk these unprobable ships, because they have a margin of safety, they still have to dock, they still have to go thru gates, but if they don't feel safe enough to do this, then they won't, they will just do incursions in high sec. meaning less targets and more cloaking. I've run an awful lot of pirate missions in hostile space with my Vargur. You do not need to be unprobeable to mission in 0.0. -Liang Confirming I too run complexes in low / 0.0 in a probable ship. (Yeah they're not pirate missions but they have gates, rats, etc...) I almost alpha-sniped a buzzard last night trying to sneak in too. ProTip: Drop a few "useful cans of ammo" at the accelleration gate beacon and watch Mr Cloaky pee his pants as he pops up on your overview / dscan.
Jack Abramof	Posted - 2011.05.12 15:41:00 - [70] Originally by: Ghurthe Arazu, Pilgrim, Falcon... just need one of those and one decent damage dealer and well... that's all she wrote for any missioner. a recon on his own poses no thread to a pvp fitted pest ( with 2 neut and 1 eccm ) doing mission ; for an arazu/pilgrim they will be dead before they know what hit them, against falcon pilot, if he dont miss a cycle, thats another story . IF i have the time to target even only once, 5 medium drones, 2 heavy neuts and 2/3 salvo will take care of him pretty fast ( got 6 millions SP in regular drones ). Obviously Dscan is your friend, if i see nothing on scan and then I see 2/3 bs, hac whatever , I will be aligned and ready to warp. Then again, I could have as well a recon cloaked on the site , using him as a scout and support if i want to engage.
QuIlliO	Posted - 2011.05.12 15:49:00 - [71] Everyones talking like all you have to do is warp off. Once your mission space is compromised thats it for the mission. Youre not going to be able to complete it. Even if you warp off before the space is probed down, youre done until they leave the system/area. Gangs can render your mission systems useless. Before you say move, the gangs have warp buttons too and know how to follow you. @salazar- if its not also a single player game, why is the entire mission mechanic built around single player rewards, mission pulling, etc? Why are epic arcs and cosmos missions centered on a single player? Why are there individual standings? Its your type of thinking that guarantees EVE will never have a decent size player base.
Emperor Salazar Caldari Remote Soviet Industries	Posted - 2011.05.12 16:20:00 - [72] Originally by: QuIlliO @salazar- if its not also a single player game, why is the entire mission mechanic built around single player rewards, mission pulling, etc? Why are epic arcs and cosmos missions centered on a single player? Why are there individual standings? Its your type of thinking that guarantees EVE will never have a decent size player base. Does the phrase Massive Multiplayer mean anything to you? Yes there are features that cater to individual players. However, at no point beyond the tutorials and your personal hangar are you meant to have single player instances. Other MMOs often have this; Eve does not. Unprobable ships broke this norm. This is bad for Eve. Eve has a decent player size. It simply doesn't have a massive one because it does not cater to the traditional crowd. Thats what niche games are best at.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.05.12 16:21:00 - [73] Originally by: QuIlliO Everyones talking like all you have to do is warp off. Once your mission space is compromised thats it for the mission. Youre not going to be able to complete it. Even if you warp off before the space is probed down, youre done until they leave the system/area. Gangs can render your mission systems useless. Before you say move, the gangs have warp buttons too and know how to follow you. @salazar- if its not also a single player game, why is the entire mission mechanic built around single player rewards, mission pulling, etc? Why are epic arcs and cosmos missions centered on a single player? Why are there individual standings? Its your type of thinking that guarantees EVE will never have a decent size player base. So, I'm a pirate and I've run a nontrivial amount of missions in hostile space... seriously it doesn't take long for the hostiles to get bored and give you time to finish your mission. Its not like it takes a particularly long time anyway. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
QuIlliO	Posted - 2011.05.12 16:38:00 - [74] Yeah I got all the time in the world to wait around to play the game I pay for. Hell, SCREW the kids and my wife. SCREW dinner and family time. Because Ive got this great game where I can sit and wait and wait and wait to do some more waiting. Yay. Playing eve is too much like having a virtual job.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2011.05.12 18:13:00 - [75] Thats the price you have to pay for much better isk/h compared to hisec.
Ghurthe	Posted - 2011.05.12 18:33:00 - [76] The long and short of it is, right now, gimping your fit to be unscannable is the only way to VERY safely do missions in lowsec. Unless we're talking level 5s, it's not terribly much more isk / hour in lowsec if you're unscannable vs moderately pimped in a 0.5 or 0.6. Anomalies can be scanned down easily, and if you're in a complex THAT can be scanned down, sooo really making ships unscannable only changes the 0.0 pirate faction Mission runners, the very few level 4 low sec missioners, and the few level 5 missioners. I don't think I'd mind level 5s if they were in 0.0, if only because you'd be able to anchor drag bubbles on your missions to pull people off the accel gate and give you time to get out. What's frustrating is that level 5s are only in lowsec, and there are no equivalents for 0.0. Also the attackers have a huge advantage against mission runners in that you've got an extra 100-3000 DPS helping you kill your target.
Wayson Minmatar Sigma Affiliates	Posted - 2011.05.12 19:05:00 - [77] Originally by: Ghurthe Anomalies can be scanned down easily, and if you're in a complex THAT can be scanned down, sooo really making ships unscannable only changes the 0.0 pirate faction Mission runners, the very few level 4 low sec missioners, and the few level 5 missioners. Agree, but it also impacts people running escalations. I hope that CCP doesn't implement this change, but having seen their development logic over the past few years I fully expect it to happen.
QuIlliO	Posted - 2011.05.12 19:06:00 - [78] Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Thats the price you have to pay for much better isk/h compared to hisec. I pay a per month fee to CCP, why should I have to "pay" in wasted time? Your comment also makes absolutely no sense. If I have to keep taking time out for the hunters to leave me alone, I'm not making any isk at all. More importantly, I'm not having any fun at all. The fact that you used isk/hr as a measurement is sad. I pay to play a game, not work a 2nd virtual job in a virtual world. All of you out there working as haulers, builders, researchers, miners are paying to be human controlled NPCs, which is probably the craftiest, most amazing thing about EVE.
Tel'me Am Peur	Posted - 2011.05.12 19:07:00 - [79] Predicting the thread will be about how mission running is the "most dangerous profession," in EVE in anther page or two.
Lady Go Diveher	Posted - 2011.05.12 19:34:00 - [80] Originally by: Jack Abramof a recon on his own poses no thread to a pvp fitted pest ( with 2 neut and 1 eccm ) doing mission lulwhut Please post this "PVP mission running Tempest" that has slots for tackle, ECCM and neuts.
Charles37	Posted - 2011.05.12 21:59:00 - [81] Unbelievable. I can't fathom why they possibly think this is a good idea. This makes me incredibly angry. So angry, in fact, that I'm cancelling my 6 accounts right now. Since I'm leaving the game, I put all my isk up for one trit on a contract in Jita. Whoever finds it first gets it all.
Tel'me Am Peur	Posted - 2011.05.12 22:03:00 - [82] You would've had a good troll there without the last line.
Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2011.05.12 22:27:00 - [83] Originally by: Cipher Jones There is 0% chance of you getting probed from the time the ship hits local to 5 seconds. Literally. There is zero chance you can launch the necessary number of probes needed to locate a mission runner in 5 seconds, let alone get the probes into position to perform a scan in 5 seconds. This assumes you already know the correct spot to place the probes to get a warpable hit, a task which by itself will take significantly longer than 5 seconds.
Guillame Herschel Gallente NME1	Posted - 2011.05.12 22:40:00 - [84] Originally by: Ghurthe The long and short of it is, right now, gimping your fit to be unscannable is the only way to VERY safely do missions in lowsec. Yes, that's what's broken. You are correct. Not supposed to be able to run missions VERY SAFELY in low sec.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2011.05.12 22:48:00 - [85] On other hand, probing for pve bs is trivial thing and can be done in 1 minute. Not much missions can be done in 1 minute. And once you are probed, your pve boat is no match for properly fit pvp ship hunting you. I understand that its not easy to find good balance. Still i hope that ccp doesnt consider removing "unprobability" as fixing "unprobable t3 boosters" too.
Widemouth Deepthroat	Posted - 2011.05.13 02:31:00 - [86] I'd be disappointed if they completed nerfed them tbh. Much more people in low sec/0.0 doing missions since they introduced t3s. Few are actually capable of being completely safe and avoiding pvp (alphaing them at the undock works great). For t3 unprobeable booster...removing that I think would be a unneeded nerf to small gang pvp.
Herrring Amarr National Quality Breaker Vicious OuTLaW	Posted - 2011.05.13 03:55:00 - [87] Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat I'd be disappointed if they completed nerfed them tbh. Much more people in low sec/0.0 doing missions since they introduced t3s. Few are actually capable of being completely safe and avoiding pvp (alphaing them at the undock works great). For t3 unprobeable booster...removing that I think would be a unneeded nerf to small gang pvp. While, I have a character capable of unproable boosting, I would consider nerfing unprobable boosters a buff to small gang pvp. When someone notices your whole gang has longer point range + ridiculous shield tank with just T2 modules, they will never engage you again without way superior firepower.
Tel'me Am Peur	Posted - 2011.05.13 04:48:00 - [88] Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat For t3 unprobeable booster...removing that I think would be a unneeded nerf to small gang pvp. Why? I don't understand this viewpoint at all. Fleet boosters should be targets that can be eliminated. Having the option to keep one safed up and unprobable is rediculous while the command ship niche almost completely dissapears because of it. T3's (the awful legion being an exception) have more than enough use outside of this role and small gang pvp was much better off before.
grootgroot	Posted - 2011.05.13 07:34:00 - [89] As soon as you make a T3 unprobeable (and moreso to be interdiction nullified) it's pretty much gimped. You then need a lot of SP and some expensive mods to make it able to run a L4. To those grieferbears who keep whining that they should have no-effort T3 kills, use your imagination, there are plenty other places than the missionspace, where T3-unprobeable mission runners are vulnerable.
Lugalzagezi666	Posted - 2011.05.13 09:57:00 - [90] Wrong, they are not gimped at all in terms of missionrunning.

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