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Jakk Graiseach	Posted - 2005.02.15 07:54:00 - [31] Personally, as a newer player, I don't see a problem with too much isk - mainly because I never have enough The devs could generate a report of all isk flow in all directions if they wished - the script language is pretty good at parsing data. The worst 'inflation' problems in these games are not caused by players making npc reward profits but by 'sploiters who find a bug and make billions with it as fast as they can - usually on an alt account so they can move the loot before it is traced. I have looked at the market data in 3 regions and see no evidence of any real inflation - most item prices seem to have been higher at some point in the last year. As for the 'lack of ship destruction' argument, use the map, check the 'ships destroyed' option - there are still plenty of them because of war decs... -- All accounts cancelled - have fun guys
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2005.02.15 08:21:00 - [32] Originally by: Larno Mining generates ISK. 1. I mine enough minerals for a BS. (0 ISK) 2. I build a BS and insure it. (-32mil ISK) 3. I blow up the BS (+110mil ISK). That has to be an insane amount of money every day. I would estimate about 20 billion. That is one way to screw yourself I guess Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
ollobrains	Posted - 2005.02.15 08:35:00 - [33] well you rich duds could always finda new bie to donate a few million to lol if you get to rich - bring all newbies up to the same level real quick and watch the game dynamics change then. CCP would work off the data that is generated in game to make tweaks etc if the data is to much in one direction im sure they make adjustments - so what is needed is us players doing some odd stuff ( ie selling minerals way below market price flood the market with minerals or other goods off at weird stations One player wont make to much difference but if enough did some odd moves it would surley show up overall. Dunno this inflation thing is one thing that has come about ie rental slots going sky high - if it becomes problamatic the dev team said last night there are things they can do to alter it.
Steven Dynahir	Posted - 2005.02.15 09:38:00 - [34] Few things to fix this. #1 Insurance Currently insurance pays more than it costs. On earth there is no such insurance company, someone must pay more than it costs to pay those lost ships. So we need increased insurance costs, with steady bills. Let's add daily fees and dynamic 120% ISK outflux. #2 Taxation 1% Tax is low, how about 30% transaction tax and 20-50% income tax. And ofcourse weekly "temporary ship owner tax" 50k/frig, 100k/cr, 500k/bc, 1m/bs. #3 Fuel Ships should use fuel, and the fuel should have tax of 95%. Cheap to produce, but taxed to the limit. SigPl/HQ&Log Coy/MNB(C)/KFOR
TheNecromancer	Posted - 2005.02.15 09:43:00 - [35] are you from Denmark Steven?? I mean..with all thoses taxes....is almost sound like you are...
Nomeshta	Posted - 2005.02.15 09:48:00 - [36] DC, I'm all for making level 4 missions harder to enforce group activity but I would like to have a middle ground for solo players. Perhaps the agents can dynamically vary the difficulty of a mission depending on whether you are in a gang? Insurance should be reduced to at least 6 weeks from 3 months with it being looked at again in 6 months time to see if it can be halved again. I'm all for boosting low sec piracy but I don't want to see more 150km range snipers at gates - that's just pathetic. - Caution: Ninja Fingers WTB: Implants
Steven Dynahir	Posted - 2005.02.15 10:21:00 - [37] Edited by: Steven Dynahir on 15/02/2005 10:23:21 Quote: are you from Denmark Steven?? I mean..with all thoses taxes....is almost sound like you are... No, from Finland. And I though I was easy on the taxes... In real life they are: ALV (sales tax) = 22% Equity profit tax = 29% (stocks, options, divident, rents, ect) Income tax = 15-60% (basically it starts from 21%) Church tax = 1-2.5% (I'm a heretic, not paying those!) Fuel tax = 96% (95E around 1.25 euros atm) Car tax = 100% of value (on new purchase) Motorcycle tax = 200% of value (on new purchase) Money transfer tax = 29% (eg, on sales of apartments..) Car use tax* = 500 euros / year Diesel tax*** = 500 euros / year Average salary = 30ke/year. Welcome to the hell, a cold one. * = That's 29% of total sum + 29% of the profit (before the transfer tax), if you didn't figure it out = The "temporary two year tax" has been in effect for 10 years already. * = If your car runs on Diesel or electic engine! Oh.. and forgot those "work insurance payments" ect, which total of 2.5% of your salary. SigPl/HQ&Log Coy/MNB(C)/KFOR
Junroy Matox	Posted - 2005.02.15 10:49:00 - [38] Edited by: Junroy Matox on 15/02/2005 10:50:33 Quote: Currently insurance pays more than it costs. On earth there is no such insurance company, someone must pay more than it costs to pay those lost ships. I was always under the impression that people paid insurance because it costs less than replacing the insured item. It would be ridiculous to expect people to pay 150M ISK to insure a battleship, nobody would pay, they'd just go and buy a new one. I might pay more than 120M ISK in insurance over time, but not all at once. Insurance companies make money by investing their clients money. Having said that, increasing insurance costs are definitely a viable way of dealing inflation. If inflation is a problem, there are two solutions. A) Put less money into the system by making NPC money sources like agent missions, buy orders, bounties etc. worth less (not worthless, just not as much). B)Take more money out of the sytem by increasing NPC fees, charges, and buy orders. If I was to choose between the two, I would pick option A. If option B was taken, there would be no end to the complaints of "OMG, how dare they increase sales tax to 1.5%" and "I can't believe the stoopid insurance prices"etc. And it would affect almost everybody. Whereas the effect of option A is slightly more subtle, and affects a smaller portion of the populace. But then again, I am biased as I don't make alot of money from NPC's. -------------------------------------------------- ...but that's just my opinion, I'm not an expert ;)
SinBin	Posted - 2005.02.15 12:07:00 - [39] I dont think level 4 missions have hurt the ecomermy in eve at all just maybe a few more can make money without going deep into 0.0. I rat 0.0 & do level 3 missions both pay about the same amount per day, level 4 takes me alot longer per mission or with help so that also works out about the same per day. The drops from mission are pretty crap compared to 0.0 ratting per npc & some mission have no bounty, killing caldri navy for example(my fav) you get no bountys & a bluddy hard fight. Implants are now very rear for missino runners & thats helped counter the added cash from more decent recent missions. I used to get a perc 3 every week & they sold as low as 10mil, iv not seen 1 since exodus but they now sell for 25mil. Stop winging ccp do an amazing job scaling such a massive game just pay for it you want it & stop mowning cos someone has got decent money now without paying you big allainces to work in your space _______________________________________ Ill shutup the day CCP remove bookmarks
Andrue	Posted - 2005.02.15 12:19:00 - [40] Originally by: Junroy Matox Edited by: Junroy Matox on 15/02/2005 10:50:33 Quote: Currently insurance pays more than it costs. On earth there is no such insurance company, someone must pay more than it costs to pay those lost ships. I was always under the impression that people paid insurance because it costs less than replacing the insured item. Not always. Usually that's the case but it can be worth paying extra just to know that someone else is ready to pay out a large lump sum instead of you. From a financial POV it is actually never the case. Insurance companies always take in more money than they pay out. It's the only way to stay in business. The problem with Eve's insurance is the lack of regular premiums and risk accountability. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
Colthor	Posted - 2005.02.15 12:44:00 - [41] Originally by: Steven Dynahir No, from Finland. And I though I was easy on the taxes... In real life they are: (Too scary to quote) That's even worse than Britain... Why do you put up with it?! If nobody pays taxes they won't have the money to prosecute anyone for it... Let's not make Eve like real life, where it feels like you're working your backside off to pay for... Well, nothing. It's a game, it's supposed to let you you forget about the stupidities and pointlessnesses of real life. -- OTO are selling Impel and Bustard transport ships. Contact Tsavong Lah or Lacero Callrisian for details. Like mining, hauling or building? Join OTO!
Colthor	Posted - 2005.02.15 12:48:00 - [42] Originally by: Andrue The problem with Eve's insurance is the lack of regular premiums and risk accountability. I'm hard-of-thinking today... You mean that people claming doesn't affect their future premiums? So "safe" customers are charged the same as "risky" ones? -- OTO are selling Impel and Bustard transport ships. Contact Tsavong Lah or Lacero Callrisian for details. Like mining, hauling or building? Join OTO!
Terminus Est	Posted - 2005.02.15 13:02:00 - [43] I played an Online space game that had the following insurance system: You were insured by default (ship, not equipment or cargo). As you died your insurance rating would go down from 100%, so you would not get a full refund, and you would get less the more you died. You could get your insurance rate back up by not dieing for a while, while docking and jumping gates successfully (unlike Eve you had to do this manually by actually piloting your ship, there was some risk involved). In Eve this could work a bit like sec. status, maybe.
ollobrains	Posted - 2005.02.15 13:08:00 - [44] could be a tie in or expansion of the security system ?
Andrue	Posted - 2005.02.15 13:14:00 - [45] Originally by: Colthor Originally by: Andrue The problem with Eve's insurance is the lack of regular premiums and risk accountability. I'm hard-of-thinking today... You mean that people claming doesn't affect their future premiums? So "safe" customers are charged the same as "risky" ones? Yes. There should be regular premiums and the premiums should rise/fall according to how often you lose your ship. Creating the new insurance would be interesting for CCP but I think they have the tools to analyse the current payment/payout ratio then set a suitable premium figure. Hmmm. I wonder if they could set up a mechanism to allow player owned corporations to operate an insurance scheme. If you allow corporations to underwrite other corporations (insurance for insurance) you have the beginnings of a financial market. If that was funded market-side by share issues you'd have the complete thing. You could actually hurt a corporation by causing its share value to drop. -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality.
James Lyrus	Posted - 2005.02.15 13:17:00 - [46] Inflation is a result of too much money being produced, vs. money leaving. Having lots more expensive things on the market doesn't solve the problem - it's a one off cash sink, and then you've got an item that theoretically can be sold at a similar value. Things like titans and dreadnoughts will remove cash, but only for a time - they're going to have to be better than battleships, and so there will be a return on investment. The only way to 'sink' cash is for ongoing costs that everyone has to pay. If, for example, there were an asset tax, say daily 1% of your net worth. (negative balance allowed, but obviously no transactions to be made until it way paid off). If equipment deteriorated and degraded, and either needed cash to keep running, or just needed replacing occasionally. (in proportion to value of item perhaps) If operating a ship took fuel for in system, jump drives, or just warp gates. Or if running your ship took 'crew' who wanted a wage each week, or they'd just leave. Maybe even NPC hackers slicing your account, and stealing a load of cash. (Although that'd probably need a mechanism for PC hackers, and maybe _some_ way to recover it). You can't do this based on income, because then all you're doing is slowing down the inflation a little. The same is true of market taxes - you're still turning a profit, it's just maybe a little slower. What you really need is cash depletion. Currently, there's ... errm ammunition? Clones? Insurance? Skills, and ships are capital purchases, not revenue purchases. More of the latter are needed. A money sink _isn't_ a more expensive item. That's just catering to inflation. I've just started playing, and I'm seeing a real boundary point - 'normal' stuff appears to be sensible money. 'good' stuff is very expensive (compared to starting cash) - eg. 'Trade' which you can in theory get as a starting skill costs over a million isk. There's a few examples of colossally expensive bits of kit. Now I appreciate that doing this would be hugely unpopular, but it _would_ solve the problem.
Selena 001	Posted - 2005.02.15 14:38:00 - [47] Originally by: Larno Mining generates ISK. 1. I mine enough minerals for a BS. (0 ISK) 2. I build a BS and insure it. (-32mil ISK) 3. I blow up the BS (+110mil ISK). That has to be an insane amount of money every day. I would estimate about 20 billion. Are you *****? Do you know how long it takes to mine everything for a BS? And dont come the crap about "Well the entire corp does it"... who in their right mind would mine enough for a BS... then blow the bloody thing up? Then split the 78 Mill between the corp? Why dont u just mine Arkanor in 0.0? ___________ I only have 5 months left of 'knowing at all'... I had better put it to good use*
Andrue	Posted - 2005.02.15 17:08:00 - [48] Originally by: Selena 001 Originally by: Larno Mining generates ISK. 1. I mine enough minerals for a BS. (0 ISK) 2. I build a BS and insure it. (-32mil ISK) 3. I blow up the BS (+110mil ISK). That has to be an insane amount of money every day. I would estimate about 20 billion. Are you ****? Do you know how long it takes to mine everything for a BS? And dont come the crap about "Well the entire corp does it"... who in their right mind would mine enough for a BS... then blow the bloody thing up? Then split the 78 Mill between the corp? Why dont u just mine Arkanor in 0.0? Lol, I know what it takes to mine for an Apoc in a 'geddon. I mined everything for my Apoc except the rare minerals. It took me a week playing for a couple of hours every night and perhaps twelve hours over the weekend. Call it two weeks for someone in a cruiser with a question mark over buying the rare stuff? -- (Battle hardened miner) [Brackley, UK] WARNING:**This post may contain large doses of reality.
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2005.02.15 17:19:00 - [49] Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 15/02/2005 17:21:51 Originally by: Colthor That's even worse than Britain... Why do you put up with it?! If nobody pays taxes they won't have the money to prosecute anyone for it... My guess would be to live in a country that's not a post industrialist wasteland with a enormous divide between the rich and the rest. On the issue of monetary influx there's no problem, it trickles down till it reaches those too stupid to be able to manage them and from there they vanish out of the game. Convert Stations
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.02.15 17:22:00 - [50] NPC is my money, PVP is my sink hole.
Tatsue Nuko	Posted - 2005.02.20 16:41:00 - [51] Edited by: Tatsue Nuko on 20/02/2005 16:43:33 Originally by: Rivek Where does concord get all that cash to put bounties on npc pirates? Certainly not through taxation. I'd imagine that CONCORD is funded by it's member states - kind of like the UN. Who in turn would be getting their money from taxing the people living on all their planets and so on? Originally by: Rivek Where does your agent's corp get all that isk? They hardly sell you anything at all... From the poeple living in stations and planets? Pod-pilots aren't the only people in the world of EVE, it's just that pod-pilots is the only type of playable person. Originally by: Rivek I like some of the ideas posted above. Create more isk sinks. Definitely. But of course, it's hard to give an educated opinion without knowing the actual amounts of ISK "alive" in the system. How many hundred billions have been sucked out through people leaving EVE? How much is taxed through the same module being sold several times over the markets? (The tax isn't much at all, but if the same item is traded many times... It just might add up.) And so on. EDIT: Dionysos, PvP doesn't sink any money from EVE. It might sink money from your wallet, but that only means that you go NPC/Agent for a while to get some new money, which means that the PvP actually creates new ISK in the overall economy. Which is the kind of thing that causes inflation. But as was pointed out, I don't think anyone here has complete data on whether the amount of ISK in EVE has actually increased by any noticeable amount.
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2005.02.20 17:02:00 - [52] Originally by: Ruffio Sepico Originally by: Larno Mining generates ISK. 1. I mine enough minerals for a BS. (0 ISK) 2. I build a BS and insure it. (-32mil ISK) 3. I blow up the BS (+110mil ISK). That has to be an insane amount of money every day. I would estimate about 20 billion. That is one way to screw yourself I guess Indeed youll have made 78 mill isk where simply selling it would have made you 110 mill --------------------------- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Infinity Ziona	Posted - 2005.02.20 20:50:00 - [53] Originally by: Selena 001 Originally by: Larno Mining generates ISK. 1. I mine enough minerals for a BS. (0 ISK) 2. I build a BS and insure it. (-32mil ISK) 3. I blow up the BS (+110mil ISK). That has to be an insane amount of money every day. I would estimate about 20 billion. Are you ******? Do you know how long it takes to mine everything for a BS? And dont come the crap about "Well the entire corp does it"... who in their right mind would mine enough for a BS... then blow the bloody thing up? Then split the 78 Mill between the corp? Why dont u just mine Arkanor in 0.0? I can make enough in a few missions to buy a brand new battleship. I own quite a little fleet now since having ISK in your wallet currently is a risk imo. Possible ISK sinks that won't hurt too much: (1) Jumpgate Tolls (2) Docking Fees (3) Super Highway Tolls (4) Very Expensive Agent Security Status Increase Fees (5) Very Expensive NPC Interbus Service (pilot only) (6) Posting with Alts on the Forums tolls Infinity Ziona
Infinity Ziona	Posted - 2005.02.20 20:55:00 - [54] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 20/02/2005 20:56:06 Oh BTW the guy saying he mines a Battleship, then insures it, then blows it up. He doesn't have to deliberately blow it up, it may be accidental or in PvP, but no matter, every single time a BS blows up, it creates the insurance payout minus the insurance cost and contributes to isk entering the system. I think that was the point he was making, not that you can make a profit by mining for one and then blowing it up Infinity Ziona
Roy Focker	Posted - 2005.02.20 22:02:00 - [55] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Originally by: Selena 001 Originally by: Larno Mining generates ISK. 1. I mine enough minerals for a BS. (0 ISK) 2. I build a BS and insure it. (-32mil ISK) 3. I blow up the BS (+110mil ISK). That has to be an insane amount of money every day. I would estimate about 20 billion. Are you ******? Do you know how long it takes to mine everything for a BS? And dont come the crap about "Well the entire corp does it"... who in their right mind would mine enough for a BS... then blow the bloody thing up? Then split the 78 Mill between the corp? Why dont u just mine Arkanor in 0.0? I can make enough in a few missions to buy a brand new battleship. I own quite a little fleet now since having ISK in your wallet currently is a risk imo. Possible ISK sinks that won't hurt too much: (1) Jumpgate Tolls (2) Docking Fees (3) Super Highway Tolls (4) Very Expensive Agent Security Status Increase Fees (5) Very Expensive NPC Interbus Service (pilot only) (6) Posting with Alts on the Forums tolls Infinity Ziona Totally agree. Hell, you should taxed for using ALT's ingame. -------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- I am not paying $15 a month to play a immature a-hole.
Drahcir Nasom	Posted - 2005.02.21 12:18:00 - [56] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 20/02/2005 20:56:06 Oh BTW the guy saying he mines a Battleship, then insures it, then blows it up. He doesn't have to deliberately blow it up, it may be accidental or in PvP, but no matter, every single time a BS blows up, it creates the insurance payout minus the insurance cost and contributes to isk entering the system. I think that was the point he was making, not that you can make a profit by mining for one and then blowing it up Infinity Ziona Money is also going out of the player economy through people who insure ships but don't lose them. You only have to insure a ship 100% four times, and the money you have paid in insurance is more than the money you have paid for the ship. Not everybody (in fact probably only a minority) loses their ship during the first insurance period. In addition, people who are regularly losing ships are also probably regularly having to pay for a new clone as well. Sources adding money to player economy Minerals from mining NPC loot drops NPC bounties Insurance payouts Agent rewards Sales to NPCs (trade goods in particular) Sinks removing money from player economy Insurance premiums Purchases from NPCs (particularly skill books) Ships/modules destroyed. Clone fees Office/Factory/Lab slot fees Sales tax/Broker fees Eve-mail/chat fees Fines (not so much now proper escrow is required for market buy orders) Ships and modules only remove their mineral worth from the game, an uber module which sells for 25M between players might only be worth 25K in minerals. Drahcir
Jeltz	Posted - 2005.02.21 13:03:00 - [57] Realx peeps! This is why we have BOB! The economy works like this.. people mine and do missions, thus introducing new minerals/isk and items. bob blows up the items, and their surrounding ships. People buy new ships. Bob did this in the north with great success, and are now introducing this to players around the galaxy!

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