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Toroup
Prometheus Deep Core Mining and Salvage
35
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Posted - 2012.09.06 14:33:00 -
[61] - Quote
James 315 wrote:baltec1 wrote:CCP will most likely have to do something about ice mining macks. And if they don't, the rest of us will.
OOOHHHHHH Scary!!!!!
Come find me. Make it your own personal Eve mission. Come hunt down old Toroup. Find me if you can among the shining fields of ice, and there you find your icy grave.
In all seriousness, Ice mining is a horrible isk/hour proposition. People who AFK it for the minimal isk that it provides should just be look at as NPC vendors. It's basically 8:1 right now - it takes about 8 hours of ice mining to equal 1 hour of level 4 missioning.
As far as fixing mining, they should incorporate a mechanic like having to align the beams or something to max yield. As a the mining beams run, they get out of alignment and there could be a dial that you have to adjust to realign them. Aligned beams create 100% yield, where misaligned beams degrade yield down to 0% as they progress. In doing this, people could still AFK if they wanted to but their yield would be affected. The best yield would be the people who are ATK and keep the beams aligned (maybe it's an alignment adjustment randomly from 30 secs to 5 mins). |
Janet Patton
Brony Express
48
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Posted - 2012.09.06 15:02:00 -
[62] - Quote
Everyone who is not a miner, should love afk miners. It drives the cost down of everything that you buy. Why do I have this sig? I don't smoke. |
Pipa Porto
870
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 16:19:00 -
[63] - Quote
Gibbo3771 wrote:So lets say you are NOT using a macro.
Something about this OP had been nagging at the back of my mind for a while, and I just figured it out.
The start of the OP is mentioning not using a bot as a hypothetical situation. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Solstice Project
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1730
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 16:43:00 -
[64] - Quote
Janet Patton wrote:Everyone who is not a miner, should love afk miners. It drives the cost down of everything that you buy. Which isn't necessarily a good thing, although cheapskates might believe so. Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1287
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Posted - 2012.09.06 18:55:00 -
[65] - Quote
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:non judgement wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I never really understood why ISboxer was allowed yet macros and automation are not. But it's entirely up to CCP to decide.
That isn't of course to say we can't make consequences ourselves for users of such programs if we feel it's necessary. We just can't ban anybody. :P Iirc, the reason they gave is that with ISBoxer, you still have to be there pressing the buttons. When you use macros, you don't have to be at the computer. They just want people to be in control and not an automated process. Quite understood, but if the program clones commands, it's not quite the same as the person manually doing the commands himself. If using ISBoxer is the same as not using it, then no one should have a problem with CCP prohibiting the use of a program to emulate commands anyways. The commands are not cloned. They are sent directly to the clients.
Its not emulating commands, it is allowing the mouse/keyboard to send their commands to more than one location. |
Pipa Porto
874
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 20:48:00 -
[66] - Quote
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:Quite understood, but if the program clones commands, it's not quite the same as the person manually doing the commands himself. If using ISBoxer is the same as not using it, then no one should have a problem with CCP prohibiting the use of a program to emulate commands anyways.
It's no different from using hardware/software that allows one keyboard to control multiple computers at the same time. Or the spectacular invention by the guy who made a 100% Hardware multibox setup using wooden dowels and such to chain a half dozen mice and keyboards back when CCP refused to whitelist ISBoxer.
There's no emulating the commands, it's just, in effect, a beam splitter. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
331
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 20:54:00 -
[67] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:CCP will most likely have to do something about ice mining macks.
I think the only thing they could dotostop AFK ice mining is to drastically reduce the loooooooooooooong cycle time to orcethepilots back to the computer once every 5 minutes instead of once per hour =========================================================
EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 6: 100% Nullsec residents. EVE demographics vs CSM demographics, nothing to worry about... |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
705
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 22:42:00 -
[68] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:CCP will most likely have to do something about ice and mining in general so players don't sleep in front of their computer when they should be PLAYING
Fixed 4U brb |
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
228
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Posted - 2012.09.06 23:42:00 -
[69] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:baltec1 wrote:CCP will most likely have to do something about ice mining macks. isnt that what Goons are for? "Emergent gameplay" and all? Sure, when it's actually, I don't know, playing the game.
I think I just said that... Given that "sponsoring emergent gameplay" IS playing the game
and ganking miners IS playing the game
http://gizmodo.com/5913381/season-your-food-with-salt-from-real-human-tears
you will be harvested |
Jason Xado
Xado Industries
26
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Posted - 2012.09.09 16:48:00 -
[70] - Quote
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:
Quite understood, but if the program clones commands, it's not quite the same as the person manually doing the commands himself. If using ISBoxer is the same as not using it, then no one should have a problem with CCP prohibiting the use of a program to emulate commands anyways.
Everything is IsBoxer is still manual. IsBoxer does 2 things.
1.) It broadcasts your mouse and key clicks to multiple clients at the same time. Which is extremely useful. However you still have to be at the keyboard and click the button. Nothing is automated.
2.) IsBoxer also has a feature (called VideoFX) that allows you to place parts of one screen onto another screen. This effectively allows you to control multiple screens without having to jump from screen to screen, which is very useful. Here is a screenshot of my mining setup to illustrate ( http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images/4/43/Screen1.jpg ). Again, everything is manual, nothing is automated.
Obviously using IsBoxer is not the same as not using it, otherwise noone would be using it. People need to just get used to the fact the multiboxing is a vibrant part of Eve Online. For me it is what actually makes the game interesting to play as I prefer to be the master of my own empire on my own time schedule, then a peon in someone elses empire on thier time schedule. But that's just me and my humble opinion :-) |
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Optimo Sebiestor
The Society Calyxes
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.09 23:17:00 -
[71] - Quote
I find afk mining a nice niche while playing Dust 514. |
Evei Shard
116
|
Posted - 2012.09.09 23:58:00 -
[72] - Quote
Toroup wrote: As far as fixing mining, they should incorporate a mechanic like having to align the beams or something to max yield. As a the mining beams run, they get out of alignment and there could be a dial that you have to adjust to realign them. Aligned beams create 100% yield, where misaligned beams degrade yield down to 0% as they progress. In doing this, people could still AFK if they wanted to but their yield would be affected. The best yield would be the people who are ATK and keep the beams aligned (maybe it's an alignment adjustment randomly from 30 secs to 5 mins).'
Additionally, adding something like PI scanning would work well. Get rid of the high yield rocks and just have high yield zones on a rock. So the overall process could be:
Warp to a field lock a rock Scan the rock Target the high yield areas of the rock Align the beams Mine Repeat
The AFKer could just lock and mine and that could give the standard yield rocks and the overall yield would diminish as the beams become misaligned. ATK miners could actively target the high yield areas of the rocks and keep the beams aligned to maximize yield and rock type.
Ah the things I think of when I'm high.
The problem with all these ideas is that while they are really good, they kill the game for people who mine with more than one character at a time. The time involved with aligning 6, 9, 12 or more lasers would cause most people to simply take the yield hit and deal with the diminishing returns provided in your idea. The end result there is CCP devs spending a ton of time implementing something that would not be used. Time they could have spent working on other things.
Profit favors the prepared |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
71
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 00:36:00 -
[73] - Quote
Evei Shard wrote:The problem with all these ideas is that while they are really good, they kill the game for people who mine with more than one character at a time. No. It would kill it for people who want to mine with multiple accounts at a time AFK.
Having to spend time mining is the general idea behind, you know, trying to fix AFK mining |
Evei Shard
116
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 00:48:00 -
[74] - Quote
Pohbis wrote:Evei Shard wrote:The problem with all these ideas is that while they are really good, they kill the game for people who mine with more than one character at a time. No. It would kill it for people who want to mine with multiple accounts at a time AFK. Having to spend time mining is the general idea behind, you know, trying to fix AFK mining
I mine ATK with an Orca and 3 hulks. It is anything but an AFK deal if you want to maximize yield without turrets sitting with no rock to shoot at for a cycle or two.
Oh, and if some people were not aware, it's still possible to gank a hulk, so don't forget doing repetitive ATK tasks like using D-scan, local, etc.
Little games that would hinder yield in order to prevent AFK mining would probably increase AFK mining and decrease subscriptions. Profit favors the prepared |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
71
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 01:09:00 -
[75] - Quote
Evei Shard wrote:Little games that would hinder yield in order to prevent AFK mining would probably increase AFK mining and decrease subscriptions. Or, they could mine with less accounts and get the same yield, while playing the "little game".
Which is the real reason why CCP wont do anything about the current mining mechanics. It would cut into subscribed accounts.
Instead, they'll keep the current way for people who like minimal effort gameplay, and introduce a new mining mechanic were they can build an involving mechanic from scratch for those who actually like mining, instead of trying to change the current one which is inherently just; not fun.
No idea if ring mining will ever make it in the game tho.
|
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2124
|
Posted - 2012.09.10 01:13:00 -
[76] - Quote
Why not have a popup to click and if you don't you get a little afk icon over your ship.... then let come what may "A genius throws a Molotov cocktail and soon realizes that he's going to die choking in a maze of smoke and flame. A hero drinks a Molotov cocktail and soon realizes that if he does a split in midair, he can hit twice as many zombies per kick. Drunk hero wins again, wusses." ~Cracked.com |
Oxylan
Fuss Roo Dah
17
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 03:22:00 -
[77] - Quote
Try understand.
1.We are not a CCP slaves, we got rights to be afk every time when we need to be afk, even if CCP is against afk gaming style or they got specific gaming philosophy anty afk.
2. I can mining ore while im afk so long like i want, im not a robot im human, again i have right to be afk , the worse thing that may happens is overload cargo after few minyts while im afk, if i go to deep afk the worse thing that may hapens is a not active mining barge - exhumer blow up to some kamikaze because of afk reason.
3.We got familis jobs etc, again we are humans not robots.
4. Stop care or living with obsesion about bots, you pay for this game mothly fee, you have right to be afk, , enjoy game, you pay for it, bring your macinav to ice field activate strip miners and go afk, it wont earn much money... If it bleed we can kill it. |
Pipa Porto
892
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 03:35:00 -
[78] - Quote
Oxylan wrote:Try understand.
1.We are not a CCP slaves, we got rights to be afk every time when we need to be afk, even if CCP is against afk gaming style or they got specific gaming philosophy anty afk.
2. I can mining ore while im afk so long like i want, im not a robot im human, again i have right to be afk , the worse thing that may happens is overload cargo after few minyts while im afk, if i go to deep afk the worse thing that may hapens is a not active mining barge - exhumer blow up to some kamikaze because of afk reason.
3.We got familis jobs etc, again we are humans not robots.
4. Stop care or living with obsesion about bots, you pay for this game mothly fee, you have right to be afk, , enjoy game, you pay for it, bring your macinav to ice field activate strip miners and go afk, it wont earn much money...
1. Yep you certainly have the right to be AFK, but why do you feel you have the right to be AFK, Safe, and Making money all at the same time?
2. That's the problem. While Industrialized Suicide Ganking isn't possible, the worst that's likely to happen to you when you go AFK is some lost yield. People mining while AFK reduces the value of the time people spend mining while at the computer.
3. If you have a family or work commitment, I would suggest docking up and/or logging off. Most people, when family or work commitments interfere with their leisure activities, suspend their leisure activity until they've taken care of the family or work commitment. Docking up takes all of 5 seconds, and logging off is even faster.
4. Again, why do you feel you have the right to be AFK, Safe, and Make money all at the same time? It devalues the effort of other players who don't go AFK.
Finally, it seems that you're defending botting, which (if an accurate interpretation of your post) is not going to make you popular with miners or anyone, really. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
658
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 03:36:00 -
[79] - Quote
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Antisocial Malkavian wrote:baltec1 wrote:CCP will most likely have to do something about ice mining macks. isnt that what Goons are for? "Emergent gameplay" and all? Sure, when it's actually, I don't know, playing the game. I think I just said that... Given that "sponsoring emergent gameplay" IS playing the gameand ganking miners IS playing the game Oh, I was referring to the AFK ice miners. Not sure why I thought that's what you were talking about. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
1033
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 03:43:00 -
[80] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:non judgement wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I never really understood why ISboxer was allowed yet macros and automation are not. But it's entirely up to CCP to decide.
That isn't of course to say we can't make consequences ourselves for users of such programs if we feel it's necessary. We just can't ban anybody. :P Iirc, the reason they gave is that with ISBoxer, you still have to be there pressing the buttons. When you use macros, you don't have to be at the computer. They just want people to be in control and not an automated process. Quite understood, but if the program clones commands, it's not quite the same as the person manually doing the commands himself. If using ISBoxer is the same as not using it, then no one should have a problem with CCP prohibiting the use of a program to emulate commands anyways. The commands are not cloned. They are sent directly to the clients. Its not emulating commands, it is allowing the mouse/keyboard to send their commands to more than one location.
Which you can only do by emulating a mouse/keyboard via software on the other locations.
ISBoxer is botting. It's just attended botting, which is significantly more ethical than the bots that the rest of the miners use. |
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Xython
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
1035
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 03:56:00 -
[81] - Quote
Evei Shard wrote:The problem with all these ideas is that while they are really good, they kill the game for people who mine with more than one character at a time. The time involved with aligning 6, 9, 12 or more lasers would cause most people to simply take the yield hit and deal with the diminishing returns provided in your idea. The end result there is CCP devs spending a ton of time implementing something that would not be used. Time they could have spent working on other things.
Wait, since when is "killing the game for people who mine with more than one character at a time" -- i.e., botters -- a bad thing?
Seriously, if there was a combat situation that would allow me to run Sanctums in Nullsec on 23 accounts at the same time, it would get nerfed within days, if not hours. And it bloody well should be. (Unless it has the name "Faction Warfare" in the title, then it can stick around for 3-4 months apparently.)
I'm sorry that mining is such a horrifically boring activity that you people can't be bothered to actually play the game they're, in theory, enjoying, but the solution has to involve making it more fun and engaging. Crippling the mining revamp by also including "but it should also be something we should be able to do while completely AFK" is asinine whining from entitled prats.
In short, any mining revamp MUST include changes to make it impossible to AFK -- i.e. Bot -- mine. Otherwise we'll just return to the current situation of people forced to either bot mine or play the game virtually indistinguishable from a bot to compete. |
Pipa Porto
892
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 04:14:00 -
[82] - Quote
Xython wrote:Which you can only do by emulating a mouse/keyboard via software on the other locations.
ISBoxer is botting. It's just attended botting, which is significantly more ethical than the bots that the rest of the miners use.
Or, as the guy who finally got CCP to whitelist ISBoxer proved, by creating a hilarious and over the top hardware solution. ISBoxer's ability to clone mouse commands doesn't allow you to do anything you couldn't do with some wooden dowels, packing tape, and a giant desk surface area.
For details on how to avoid paying ISBoxer's ~$20 annual subscription fee by using a hardware solution, click here.
ISBoxer is a more elegant way to tie a bunch of mice together with wooden dowels and packing tape, and performs the same functions as doing so. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
140
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 05:55:00 -
[83] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Xython wrote:Which you can only do by emulating a mouse/keyboard via software on the other locations.
ISBoxer is botting. It's just attended botting, which is significantly more ethical than the bots that the rest of the miners use. Or, as the guy who finally got CCP to whitelist ISBoxer proved, by creating a hilarious and over the top hardware solution. ISBoxer's ability to clone mouse commands doesn't allow you to do anything you couldn't do with some wooden dowels, packing tape, and a giant desk surface area. For details on how to avoid paying ISBoxer's ~$20 annual subscription fee by using a hardware solution, click here. ISBoxer is a more elegant way to tie a bunch of mice together with wooden dowels and packing tape, and performs the same functions as doing so. I've been looking for that link for a while - completely forgot where to find it... Thanks!
I so completely love his "over-the-top" setup. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression - The only way to go! |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
172
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 11:01:00 -
[84] - Quote
Xython wrote:In short, any mining revamp MUST include changes to make it impossible to AFK -- i.e. Bot -- mine. Otherwise we'll just return to the current situation of people forced to either bot mine or play the game virtually indistinguishable from a bot to compete.
Could you tell us how it is possible to miner to AFK 24 hours in a Hulk?
Hint: It's not possible. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
172
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 11:05:00 -
[85] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Yep you certainly have the right to be AFK, but why do you feel you have the right to be AFK, Safe, and Making money all at the same time?
Unless you know way to prevent other players from buying modules, ships, ore, stuff from me while I'm on station and AFK... |
gobbybobby
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
10
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 11:13:00 -
[86] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Xython wrote:In short, any mining revamp MUST include changes to make it impossible to AFK -- i.e. Bot -- mine. Otherwise we'll just return to the current situation of people forced to either bot mine or play the game virtually indistinguishable from a bot to compete. Could you tell us how it is possible to miner to AFK 24 hours in a Hulk? Hint: It's not possible.
Lots of coffee? And be an extremely boring or easy to amuse person. |
highonpop
Eve Liberation Force Fatal Ascension
272
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 13:42:00 -
[87] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:CCP will most likely have to do something about ice mining macks.
make it so Ice mining is comparable to regular mining.
The reason people AFK/BOT mine Ice is because it takes hours and hours to get enough to be useful. The Ice mechanic itself is broken, not the miners. It should no take you 5-6 hours of Ice mining just to run 1 POS for 1 Week. If it were not for Botting Ice miners, POS fuel would be much more expensive than it is.
http://www.soundboard.com/sb/Very%20best%20of%20Makalu%20Zarya |
Tort Funaila
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 19:20:00 -
[88] - Quote
Volar Kang wrote:James 315 wrote:And if they don't, the rest of us will. I know you think you are on some Jihad but trust me, you dont speak for the "rest of us" James.
He was elected to do exactly that. I just hope he agrees to serve on the CSM; we need his leadership badly. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
152
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 20:39:00 -
[89] - Quote
OMG this thread is just full of fail.
No matter what CCP, tries to do, or even succeeds in doing, the poor asshats without real jobs sitting at home will very quickly find new work arounds and ways to exploit the new system. Stop asking for something that is not possible. it will only hurt the game and the players who actually play it. the bots and exploiters will find a way around any fix they implement.
CCP has developed a method of tracking, monitoring, and punishing botters. It has been very effective, but the botters will always find new ways around it. Learn to live with it or stop playing MMO's. Every MMO contains players that live for nothing other than finding ways to exploit the game.
I hate bots as much as the next guy, I do AFK mine. I also have a very large network of very passive income PI. I have a real job and a real life. I also have 4 active accounts in EVE. When I am at work I often have EVE running in the back ground with my mining crew set up for 5-6 hours out of a day. I can not run missions, go ratting, or PVP during this time as I am at work and would most likely get fired. When I get home I have two young children that want to spend time with daddy. These are my priorities, work and family.
When I do have time to actually sit down and play EVE I want to spend it doing activities I enjoy. AFK mining, and PI while at work gives me the isk to do that.
Why should my game play get nerfed? Why should my subscriptions be worth less than some jobless asshat that sits on his couch playing video games all day?
It should not and is not.
If you want to discuss real ethics. Some of the biggest PVPers and null sec legends are actually in real life lazy bums sitting in their parents basement, with no real job skills, and have no life outside of the game. Really what type of game play should be discouraged? the hard working tax payer who plays the game for simple enjoyment and recreation as video games are supposed to be? Or the lazy asshat who has no life outside of the game and is nothing but a burden on society?
it is just a game, grow up and get your priorities straight. |
Pipa Porto
895
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 20:41:00 -
[90] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Yep you certainly have the right to be AFK, but why do you feel you have the right to be AFK, Safe, and Making money all at the same time? Unless you know way to prevent other players from buying modules, ships, ore, stuff from me while I'm on station and AFK...
The risk in trading while AFK is the risk that you lose money on trades due to market changes and other things. Which you can't react to because you're, wait for it, AFK.
So, to our 3 part checklist, is trading: Possible while AFK? Yes. Profitable while AFK? Maybe. Safe? No. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
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