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Batelle -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2011.05.24 05:34:00 - [31] increase the base speed and agility of the tech 1 cruisers, especially the rax. give a small cpu/powergrid increase as well. this would allow more effective fits on t1 cruisers, and strengthen them in the one area that differentiates them from bc's. --------------------------------------------- EC-P8R... You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
Tyme Xandr Gallente Dark Circle Enforcement	Posted - 2011.05.24 05:35:00 - [32] Originally by: Straight Edged Please dont touch the best ship line in EVE. Stop using T1 cruisers. There is a reason recons, HAC;s and hics exists. They are BETTER. t1 cruisers stand no chance whatsoever against t2 and t3's Spoken like a person whos never flown an Eagle or Cerb. Everything the Eagle does the Moa can do almost as well for 1/20th the price. The Cerb has its uses but barely worth it. These two HACs only make Caldaris line of pitiful ships that much longer of a list. I personally fly the Moa often, its a great little ship in a fleet. My fit boasts over 500dps and a 32k EHP with decent resists. is it the most awesome T1 cruiser? No, the rupture still mops it, but does that mean its without its uses? No. The Caracal as mentioned is a great frig killer ... which so is the Harpy and Hawk, and the Harpy as Hawk are pretty fun to fly. If you choose to fly it as a HL 'sniper' make sure you dont group your weapons or you wont see very many KMs in ur box. ------ I do, however, think that all T1 Cruisers and T1 Frigates need to be looked at to make them all a bit more fun. Half the cruisers and half the frigates are almost unusable by Caldari and Gallente (the two races I fly) and I am sure Min and Amarr have found a similar problem. The case I most hear in defence of their inability is "Noobs use them". Well, CCP has made it very easy to fly a decently fit Drake within a month and a half now ... who is going to be flying a Condor after the first day or two? Making more Frigates/Cruisers viable would only add more to the mix of what to prepare for in PVP.
General Foom	Posted - 2011.05.24 10:47:00 - [33] I just tried fitting up a Thorax to run some level 1s-2s for standing 5 x 250II rails 1 x 10mn Micro-warp drive requires 2 x RCU II's to fit its quite stupid compared to fitting a ruppy or even a caracal with an LSE II I realize its a Blaster boat..but damn versatile it is not.....and it sluggish to boot
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2011.05.24 12:54:00 - [34] Caracal is a nice gang boat as-is. Use it for EWar support and some extra DPS at range: [Caracal, Care-a-cal] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Large Shield Extender II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Remote Sensor Dampener II, Targeting Range Dampening DDO Photometry Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption DDO Photometry Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Small Energy Neutralizer II Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I Medium Ionic Field Projector I Swap EWar around as necessary. As a solo boat it isn't great, but not every ship can or should be able to do everything. For this niche it is fine, and fun. - "When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed." - CCP Big Dumb Object
VCBee 2fast2furious Aliastra	Posted - 2011.05.24 13:54:00 - [35] Originally by: Andrea Griffin Caracal is a nice gang boat as-is. Use it for EWar support and some extra DPS at range: [Caracal, Care-a-cal] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Large Shield Extender II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Remote Sensor Dampener II, Targeting Range Dampening DDO Photometry Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption DDO Photometry Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Small Energy Neutralizer II Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I Medium Ionic Field Projector I Swap EWar around as necessary. As a solo boat it isn't great, but not every ship can or should be able to do everything. For this niche it is fine, and fun. Good lord what is this abomination. If you wanted Ewar gang support from a caldari cruiser why would you not just use a blackbird?
Roosterton The 57th Overlanders	Posted - 2011.05.24 13:59:00 - [36] Edited by: Roosterton on 24/05/2011 13:59:02 Originally by: Alara IonStorm snip I agree that within the cruiser class itself, there is an unbalance between ships - which is why I agreed that the tier system needs to be removed. Heck, I wouldn't mind if the BC's all become the same level as the tier 1's, and the cruisers became all the same level as the tier 4's, as long as the boundaries of neither class is altered. The Ruppy, Moa, Thorax, and Maller are all fairly capable as it is. As for having no reason to use cruisers, many people simply fly them because they're cheap and tend to be underrated. You can have a Rupture and Blackbird flying together for less than the cost of one Hurricane, and would probably beat a 'Cane in a straight up fight. -------- Enemy corps raided into disbandment: Three. Originally by: Tarminic OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.05.24 14:16:00 - [37] Originally by: Andrea Griffin Utter mess of a Caracal fit Dear God, it looks like EFT threw up all over the forum. Also, regarding the frigate killer "nichT" of the Caracal I just have to ask: What t1 cruisers can't kill frigates easily? That also happens to be a "role" it shares with various other frigates (t1 and t2), cruisers and destroyers - and many of those are capable of doing the same job but with other utility into the bargain. Other t1 cruisers definately have issues, especially thanks to the fact the Hurricane exists, but yes the Caracal needs some serious power grid love. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Alara IonStorm	Posted - 2011.05.24 14:56:00 - [38] Edited by: Alara IonStorm on 24/05/2011 14:57:16 Originally by: Roosterton I agree that within the cruiser class itself, there is an unbalance between ships - which is why I agreed that the tier system needs to be removed. Heck, I wouldn't mind if the BC's all become the same level as the tier 1's, and the cruisers became all the same level as the tier 4's, as long as the boundaries of neither class is altered. Agree Fully. Originally by: Roosterton The Ruppy, Moa, Thorax, and Maller are all fairly capable as it is. All useful ships but even these could use a quick look to sure up some weaknesses they really shouldn't have. The Rupture is the perfect example of what a Cruiser should be. Both bonuses are useful, it has a good slot layout mix between firepower, utility, tank and tackle. It can host a variety of fittings from 220mm with a 1600mm Plate, 425mm with an 800mm plate, 425mm or 720mm Arty with a Sheild tank, Nano'd of with max gank and an effective Drone bay to boot. The others though could use a second look: The Maller only Weapon bonus is to Laser Cap which is code for fit with Autocannons. I have never heard an Abaddon Pilot crying about how they have to put up with a Damage Bonus. The Tank bonus is good but without gank it has mostly been relagated to obvious bait roles. I do not mind the lack of Frig defensive Drone Bay with a Dmg Bonus it would be a good mix of Gank and tank directed at other Cruisers and up. The Thorax is ok but suffers from grid issues. You can not fit Ions and a 800mm Plate on itwithout a Grid Rig. While the same plate setup with Electrons leaves a lot of free grid left over. A far cry from the Ruptures 1600mm and 220mm Auto's. It would be nice for an inch of extra fitting. The Moa now days is used pretty much exclusively as a Blaster Boat. It has no use with it's intended role as a Rail Boat due to pathetic Dmg. The Optimal Bonus for Blasters is ok but on a short range weapon it doesn't give much leash. It has a long Range Bonus for Sniping and a Close Range Bonus for tanking. They should just up and decide what the thing is for. Originally by: Roosterton As for having no reason to use cruisers, many people simply fly them because they're cheap and tend to be underrated. I fly them because I like the designs of them. I love my Ruptures and Arbitrators. Originally by: Roosterton You can have a Rupture and Blackbird flying together for less than the cost of one Hurricane, and would probably beat a 'Cane in a straight up fight. Yes but Battlecruisers are so cheap that the question of why don't I do 2 more lvl 4's and just get Battlecruiser. Between insurance and Rig costs the difference is not a hell of a lot, but the preformance goes through the roof. Fitting is a major part of that preformance. The biggest problem I see is the per slot fitting amount, wasted bonuses and poor slot layouts. A lot of them can be ok but they could be good.
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2011.05.24 15:37:00 - [39] Originally by: VCBee 2fast2furious If you wanted Ewar gang support from a caldari cruiser why would you not just use a blackbird? If you want to fly a frigate why would you not just use a Dramiel all the time? Variety. Fun. Maybe you have enough ECM boats already. I have flown a build similar to that before and it works for a cheap EWar platform. Better damage projection and mobility than an Arby. A hell of a lot better than a Bellicose or Celestis. TDs are underrated anyway. ECM is chance based. TDs are not. A missed jam on an AC boat may get your tacklers killed, but a TD or two will mean you don't need to take that jamming chance in the first place. - "When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed." - CCP Big Dumb Object
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.05.24 15:45:00 - [40] Originally by: Andrea Griffin ... While I appreciate the effort it took to come up with a lulzy niche fit, that doesn't (or shouldn't) in any way imply that the Caracal is ok. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2011.05.24 15:51:00 - [41] Originally by: Liang Nuren While I appreciate the effort it took to come up with a lulzy niche fit, that doesn't (or shouldn't) in any way imply that the Caracal is ok. I think that's the closest thing I've ever seen to Liang giving a compliment. I'm honored. Caracal is seen as completely useless aside from blitzing L2s. Just wanted to toss something out there that wasn't "frigate killer". It isn't the most fantastic thing in the world but it is something that it can contribute. - "When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed." - CCP Big Dumb Object
Alara IonStorm	Posted - 2011.05.24 15:52:00 - [42] Originally by: Andrea Griffin [Caracal, Care-a-cal] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Large Shield Extender II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Remote Sensor Dampener II, Targeting Range Dampening DDO Photometry Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption DDO Photometry Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Heavy Missile Small Energy Neutralizer II Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I Medium Ionic Field Projector I Take this fit posted earlier. With out altering the premise of it imagine what it could be if it's per slot Fitting Issues were solved and it got an extra slot from the removal of the teir system. Originally by: Andrea Griffin [Caracal, Care-a-cal] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Large Shield Extender II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Remote Sensor Dampener II, Targeting Range Dampening Tracking Disruptor II, Tracking Speed Disruption Tracking Disruptor II, Tracking Speed Disruption Heavy Missile Launcher II, CN Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, CN Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, CN Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, CN Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, CN Scourge Heavy Missile Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I Medium Particle Dispersion Projector I Medium Ionic Field Projector I Same fit, still less Grid, Cpu, Tank, Slots, Bonuses and Resists then it's T2 Cerb counter part which is still much more effective. No challenge that the Battlecruiser still have more Weapons and Tank then a Cruiser. But the fits you can work up are more effective and you can now have more freedom to say fit it with HAM's or tank it more, Nano it, gank fit it and so on. The same can be said about the T1 Frigate line up as many of those go unused because the Higher Teir ones do there role and do it better.
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.05.24 16:11:00 - [43] So what we're saying is that the Cara either needs more PG or a 3rd low? What's the baseline--full rack of heavy weaps, tank, tackle, and MWD without fitting modules?
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.05.24 16:24:00 - [44] Originally by: Von Kroll So what we're saying is that the Cara either needs more PG or a 3rd low? What's the baseline--full rack of heavy weaps, tank, tackle, and MWD without fitting modules? IMO: - If we cannot get rid of the ship tier system, additional fittings is the way to go. - If we can get rid of the ship tier system, we'll end up with the Caracal getting extra slots, fitting, capacitor, and HP implicitly. - Seems pretty silly to require fitting mods on a 2 low slot ship. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Alara IonStorm	Posted - 2011.05.24 16:48:00 - [45] Originally by: Von Kroll So what we're saying is that the Cara either needs more PG or a 3rd low? More along the lines of both, it isn't a need but it would be nice. The ship just plain under preforms it's roles. With the layout equal to a Teir 3 Ship, I.E removing the Teir System would mean more use for ships like the Caracal then just a Frig Killer. Originally by: Von Kroll What's the baseline--full rack of heavy weaps, tank, tackle, and MWD without fitting modules? A little more versatility in fitting would be very helpful. The Mods and weapons for the Drake are the same size so looking layout. The Drake has 18 slots. 60 Grid per slot. 36 CPU per slot. The Caracal has 12 Slots 55 Grid per slot. 36 CPU per slot. That is 60 less Grid all told. Now take into consideration that the Drake also has more lows meaning it can through in 2 BCU's a DCU and an RCU in the lows to boost that. The Caracal with only 2 lows means you have to choose between the extra grid, gank and tank. With 13 slots 60 Grid Per 36 CPU Per You end up with 780 Grid 468 CPU. Just enough fitting for say this. [Caracal, 120KM Sniper] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Damage Control II Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Invulnerability Field II Sensor Booster II Sensor Booster II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Warrior II x2 Or at close range. [Caracal, Medium Range Brawler] Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II Parallel Weapon Navigation Transmitter Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Warrior II x2 ----------------------------------- You can have more freedom with what you want to do with the ship. A bunch of new idea's on how you want to set it up become available. Still less Tank and Damage then a Drake. Less Slots, Fitting, Tank, Gank then a Cerb Just a well rounded combat ship with a variety of uses. I think a lot of Cruisers could use this kind of improvement. Gives us more options, doesn't hurt the bigger or more advanced ships and makes us take a second look at the old line up we rarely touch.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.05.24 16:58:00 - [46] Originally by: Alara IonStorm The Drake has 18 slots. 60 Grid per slot. 36 CPU per slot. The Caracal has 12 Slots 55 Grid per slot. 36 CPU per slot. I'm not sure how useful that kind of metric is... far better off IMO coming up with an expected "noob fit" and an expected (T2) "ideal fit with perfect fitting skills". Having a fitting mod requirement is ok as long as it doesn't unnecessarily ** the ship over in hilarious ways (such as by taking up HALF of the low slots on the ship) -Liang -- Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Alara IonStorm	Posted - 2011.05.24 17:06:00 - [47] Originally by: Liang Nuren I'm not sure how useful that kind of metric is... far better off IMO coming up with an expected "noob fit" and an expected (T2) "ideal fit with perfect fitting skills". Having a fitting mod requirement is ok as long as it doesn't unnecessarily **** the ship over in hilarious ways (such as by taking up HALF of the low slots on the ship) -Liang I was more or less just thowing up a measuring tool, I hope it isn't balanced exactly like that. I was just demonstrating what a little extra can do to a ship like this. As you can see with a minor improvement to grid, 9% per slot and an extra slot it opens options you could never acomplish with current fits that would breath new life into a primarily passed over platform.
NoLimit Soldier	Posted - 2011.05.24 18:46:00 - [48] I wouldn't say it needs MAJOR buffs. I mean the omen is pretty craptastic also and the last thing I want is every race being balanced across the board. No race should have a comparable option across all tech/hull levels. Give the caracal more speed, all I would want. I know that's the minmatar thing but the hull even looks fast, and good damage projection + no tank = begs for speed to be viable. Now buff the Navy Caracal as that thing sucks. And the Nighthawk. But back to the original point, you picked caldari as your race. You can cross train or suck it up that you will be low-end until you either go BlackBird/Falcon/Rook/Drake/Tengu or get siege links. One more quick comment, I really really really want a black/red caracal hull. Please CCP give me a minmatar/caldari pirate race that uses that hull with that paint job and HML.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.05.24 18:51:00 - [49] Originally by: NoLimit Soldier Utter rubbish Thank God this guy isn't a dev. Greater number of viable ships = better choice = more variety = better game. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
NoLimit Soldier	Posted - 2011.05.24 19:01:00 - [50] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Originally by: NoLimit Soldier Utter rubbish Thank God this guy isn't a dev. Greater number of viable ships = better choice = more variety = better game. Current evidence suggests the dev's would side with my logic over yours. But your right, I'm sure they want it all perfectly balanced and even. Any day now the cerb will be on par with the vagabond/zealot and the raptor will be taking down taranis. I for one enjoy the fact that each race has crappy ships. If you want the best in each class you HAVE TO CROSSTRAIN.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.05.24 19:57:00 - [51] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 24/05/2011 19:57:35 Nope. More like: - X ship from race Y would be worth using at all in whatever role it has assigned to it. Quote: I for one enjoy the fact that each race has crappy ships. What is the point in them existing at all if they're that terrible? So basically in a game designed by you, there would be 5 awesome ships, and 500 lolworthy terrible ones. Awesome. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Zyress	Posted - 2011.05.24 20:19:00 - [52] Originally by: Batelle Edited by: Batelle on 24/05/2011 05:21:14 Originally by: Gypsio III Nerf all tier 2 BCs to tier 1 levels. Remove slots and weapon points, cut EHP, make them harder to fit. you listed all the ways to nerf them, it actuality you'd only need a slight nerf to bring them in line. Also, no need to nerf the myrmidon. on the whole though I agree, t2 tier2 bc's need a nerf. What about boosting Cruiser speed and agility to make them faster and more agile than any battlecruiser, including the Minmatar ones, and enough pwr grid and processor for a complete T2 fit. That would be better than nerfing the one best in class ship Caldari have.
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2011.05.24 20:27:00 - [53] Hmm. The Tier 3 cruisers have 13-15 slots on them with larger drone bays for ships with lower slots. To bring the Caracal up to Teir 3 the Caracal needs 2 additional slots. I suggest 1 lowslot and 1 utility highslot in keeping with the Cerberus. Another mid would leave the Caracal with more midslots than the Cerberus. Low 3 Mid 5 High 6 Missile Hardpoints 5 I suggest that the Caracal then be given enough fitting so at max skills (5 HML IIs + 2 LSE II + 1 10mn Microwarpdrive II) would fit with enough fitting left over to cover some small modules. HAML shouldn't fit without compromising tank or using a fitting mod. The utility high shouldn't have enough grid to fit a medium neut without sacrificing tank or using a fitting mod.
Traejun DiSanctis Caldari	Posted - 2011.05.24 20:29:00 - [54] Perhaps its worthwhile folding T1 and T2 cruisers together to make the class better. But T3 is a "cruiser" in name alone. It's effectiveness is more on par with a BC/BS than any cruiser in game.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.05.24 20:30:00 - [55] Originally by: NoLimit Soldier Current evidence suggests the dev's would side with my logic over yours. The problem is that they seem to think that piling new ** on top of old on top of more old makes things less of a dungheap. Seriously, smearing on yourself doesn't make you more attractive no matter how many times you've done it before. -- Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire On Twitter
NoLimit Soldier	Posted - 2011.05.24 21:04:00 - [56] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: NoLimit Soldier Current evidence suggests the dev's would side with my logic over yours. The problem is that they seem to think that piling new ** on top of old on top of more old makes things less of a dungheap. Seriously, smearing ** on yourself doesn't make you more attractive no matter how many times you've done it before. It does if your attracting flies. (EvE Users) Newer stuff is more attractive to new people than fixing the same old game. Its about making money after all. I don't want to be playing the same EvE for years to come, I want new ships, new crap to do. Forget the crappy ships and give me new ones. And using a suggestive analogy only means your argument doesn't hold much weight.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.05.24 21:28:00 - [57] Originally by: NoLimit Soldier It does if your attracting flies. (EvE Users) Newer stuff is more attractive to new people than fixing the same old game. Its about making money after all. I don't want to be playing the same EvE for years to come, I want new ships, new crap to do. Forget the crappy ships and give me new ones. Ultimately, the problem is that the old content will ALWAYS be an eye sore, and thus will drive subscribers away. Especially if that's their intro content. Quote: And using a suggestive analogy only means your argument doesn't hold much weight. Sure. Whatever. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Cephelange du'Krevviq Caldari Seventh Exploration and Engagement Command	Posted - 2011.05.24 21:44:00 - [58] Originally by: Liang Nuren Ultimately, the problem is that the old content will ALWAYS be an eye sore, and thus will drive subscribers away. Especially if that's their intro content. A very good point.
Ned Black	Posted - 2011.05.25 08:24:00 - [59] In WH space I have annoyed the crap out of people caming a WH with a long range caracal. I simply jump outside their drag bubble influence (150+ Max skills give 189km range) and open up. They sure as hell dont like that at all. It doesn't do tremendous damage in itself, but if you have a bunch of friends you can really **** the campers off by lobbing loads of missiles from far far away at them :p
Naomi Knight Amarr	Posted - 2011.05.25 09:29:00 - [60] Originally by: Ned Black In WH space I have annoyed the crap out of people caming a WH with a long range caracal. I simply jump outside their drag bubble influence (150+ Max skills give 189km range) and open up. They sure as hell dont like that at all. It doesn't do tremendous damage in itself, but if you have a bunch of friends you can really **** the campers off by lobbing loads of missiles from far far away at them :p so actually caracal is useless as only its friends do the job well enough

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