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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.05.26 08:40:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 26/05/2011 08:45:10
Originally by: Smodab Ongalot The phrase I keep seeing over and over in this thread is "good anti-frig ship".
I would like to respectfully disagree with that....
http://sotf.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8852970
That's a Battleclinic-style lolfit. It only has four launchers, FFS. And it was using kinetic missiles, what an idiot.
Originally by: Liang It's not exactly hard to kill even a max skilled caracal with a frigate. They aren't that good at killing frigs.
Come on...
BTW, you didn't answer my question about what cheap faction mods you regard as worth fitting to a Caracal.
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Smodab Ongalot
Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2011.05.26 14:01:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Smodab Ongalot on 26/05/2011 14:00:45
Originally by: Traejun DiSanctis
Did that guy not even fire a shot at you? Am I reading that right?
Nope, he hit me with everything he had, nuet and all.
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Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.26 15:41:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Smodab Ongalot Edited by: Smodab Ongalot on 26/05/2011 14:00:45
Originally by: Traejun DiSanctis
Did that guy not even fire a shot at you? Am I reading that right?
Nope, he hit me with everything he had, nuet and all.
Well then, good kill.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.05.26 15:49:00 -
[94]
Sounds like someone should have switched to EM missiles. Nice kill, all the same.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.26 16:34:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/05/2011 16:35:46
Originally by: Gypsio III
That's a Battleclinic-style lolfit. It only has four launchers, FFS. And it was using kinetic missiles, what an idiot.
Come on...
A couple of comments: - The Hawk is ACTIVE TANKED and has **** DPS. There's a very very non trivial possibility that the neut would have worked better than a 5th launcher. - There are LOTS of frigs that can **** a Caracal. You must have only faced **** frig pilots.
Quote: BTW, you didn't answer my question about what cheap faction mods you regard as worth fitting to a Caracal.
Go take a look at contracts. Anything shieldy/tackly less than 10M. There should be quite a bit (there normally is) -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.05.26 20:24:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Liang Nuren A couple of comments: - The Hawk is ACTIVE TANKED and has **** DPS. There's a very very non trivial possibility that the neut would have worked better than a 5th launcher.
Very many Hawks do not active tank. Those that do tend to fit a cap booster, and for good reason. The neut issue is a smokescreen. Even when a neut works "better", the absence of one does not affect the result. A basic T2-fit Hawk tanks 74 DPS explosive overloaded. The Caracal deals 183 and has three times the EHP. This is only a survivable experience if you're talking about some drugged-up Crystal Pithi Hawk.
Quote: - There are LOTS of frigs that can **** a Caracal. You must have only faced **** frig pilots.
When I was living in lowsec after QR - so the only difference to modern mechanics is the pirate faction frigs - I killed a stupid amount of frigates solo roaming in a Caracal. They were like lemmings, just queueing up to get themselves ganked. It was hilarious. I never even came close to losing one in a solo fight against a frigate. I suggest that it's more likely that you've only faced **** Caracal pilots.
Since then, the only change of relevance is the new pirate frigs. Dramiel vs. Caracal is a much closer fight, a Dramiel win certainly wouldn't surprise me. So that's one. Daredevil? it doesn't have the EHP, looks like it dies even if it starts at Void optimal. What else is there? ECM drone Ishkur has a chance, sure. Dual rep Vengeance, yeah. I don't regard three as "LOTS", certainly not when two of them require a specific fit/strategy.
Quote: Go take a look at contracts. Anything shieldy/tackly less than 10M. There should be quite a bit (there normally is)
Such as? You must have had something in mind when you made that comment. Don't mention stuff like DG resist amps, because it needs to be useful to a cruiser. Cheap shield modules are cheap because they aren't very useful.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.26 20:46:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/05/2011 20:48:33
Originally by: Gypsio III A basic T2-fit Hawk tanks 74 DPS ... The Caracal deals 183
Your Hawk fit sucks. Probably because you actually believe this:
Quote: Cheap shield modules are cheap because they aren't very useful.
-- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Smodab Ongalot
Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2011.05.26 21:29:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Smodab Ongalot on 26/05/2011 21:30:40 Edited by: Smodab Ongalot on 26/05/2011 21:28:57
Originally by: Gypsio III
Very many Hawks do not active tank. Those that do tend to fit a cap booster, and for good reason. The neut issue is a smokescreen. Even when a neut works "better", the absence of one does not affect the result. A basic T2-fit Hawk tanks 74 DPS explosive overloaded. The Caracal deals 183 and has three times the EHP. This is only a survivable experience if you're talking about some drugged-up Crystal Pithi Hawk.
A T2 only hawk with synth boosters can tank 150 omni and does 150 dps with rockets.
So... No...
But back on topic... The caracal has some fitting issues, but what T1 cruiser doesn't? That is sort of the point of a cheap T1 ship...
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Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.05.26 21:40:00 -
[99]
TBH I would like to see role bonuses like 100% dmg bonuses or rig effectiveness bonuses etc in T1 cruisers, which would at least lower the cost fitting them and would make removing weapon or rig slots viable without altering them much in performance (a boost here, a slight gimp there)...
As it is now, the cost of T2 modules (especially the turrets/launchers), the cost of rigs and the tight fitting of buffer tanks on most cruisers, dooms the lower tiers because most of them lack fitting and dmg to boot with... T1 cruisers become a tad tankier and way slower frig, costing way more than a T2 fitted/T1 rigged frig and performing way worse than Tier 2 (and 1 in some cases) BCs that cost little more in comparison (after insurance).
And it's not unsafe to say that BCs actually cost more after insurance, exactly cause they have more slots to fill with modules, more magazines to fill with faction ammo, more faction ammo in cargo and more nanite paste to rep mods. The hull price difference itself is almost offset through insurance considering the above, so BCs are clearly preferred.
Reducing the amount of slots (module and/or rig) cruisers need to perform decently, without actually increasing their performance, is a good start IMHO. That could lead to slight fitting adjustments, that would make the need for ridiculously expensive named mods less of an issue (yes, it's bitter-sweet looking at T1 cruiser losses with fleeting webs, meta 3/4 DCs etc).
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.05.26 22:08:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 26/05/2011 22:10:10
Originally by: Smodab Ongalot
A T2 only hawk with synth boosters can tank 150 omni and does 150 dps with rockets.
1. Link fit. 2. Ships only do omni damage in EFT. AFs have gaping resist holes.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.27 06:08:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Gypsio III 2. Ships only do omni damage in EFT. AFs have gaping resist holes.
And the Caracal has gaping damage type holes. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.05.27 08:32:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Gypsio III 2. Ships only do omni damage in EFT. AFs have gaping resist holes.
And the Caracal has gaping damage type holes.
There's a 20% drop in DPS by switching away from kinetic, but the lower resist means that you get a 33% increase in applied DPS when you switch from kinetic to explosive against a DC II-fit Hawk. And even more for EM, unless it has dual T2 EM resist rigs. You're getting confused with the gaping damage type holes of lasers or blasters, I think.
And I'm still waiting to hear what cheap faction shield/tackle mods you think it's useful to fit to a Caracal. I called bull**** on that comment because T1 cruisers have neither the free medslots nor the base resists to make good use of resist amps, faction or otherwise. There are no worthwhile cheap tackle mods, and if you're selling Domination LSBs - which it's absurd to fit to a Caracal anyway - for 5 mill, sell them to me.
I got the Hawk fit, it's an MSB fit without a web. It would work well against a Caracal - if it could tackle it - but not many other ships probably. Against other frigates the low speed and lack of web makes it very hard to prevent targets disengaging, not to mention applying the rocket DPS, and virtually all other cruisers or battlecruisers that it can kill in a sensible timeframe will have neuts. Like the dual-rep Vengeance, it's an interesting niche fit.
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Headerman
Minmatar Element 115. Raiden.
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Posted - 2011.05.27 12:19:00 -
[103]
Why isn't anyone talking about the fact that with a couple of CPU mods, an Osprey can fit 3 large Meta 4 Shield RR's, yet the Exequrererer can only fit 2?
[Osprey, New Setup 1] Co-Processor II Co-Processor II Co-Processor II
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter Large S95a Partial Shield Transporter [empty high slot]
[Exequror, New Setup 1] Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II Reactor Control Unit II
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Thats crap.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.27 15:34:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Gypsio III
There's a 20% drop in DPS by switching away from kinetic, but the lower resist means that you get a 33% increase in applied DPS when you switch from kinetic to explosive against a DC II-fit Hawk. And even more for EM, unless it has dual T2 EM resist rigs. You're getting confused with the gaping damage type holes of lasers or blasters, I think.
Amusingly, an active tanked Hawk is somewhat likely to have an EM rig. But hey, you go ahead and ignore all the little details that don't support the Caracal being The Most Amazing ****ing Frig Killing Machine On The Whole ****ing Planet. I mean, sure, you had some good luck with it before, but I've had just as good good luck with the Vexor, Arbitrator, and Rupture. The ONLY REASON that the Caracal ever had frigs "lining up to die" was because the cruiser IS a piece of **** and it normally a pretty good bet that anyone that bothers to fly it is a ****ING MORON.
Caracal needs a boost.
Quote: I got the Hawk fit, it's an MSB fit without a web. It would work well against a Caracal - if it could tackle it - but not many other ships probably. Against other frigates the low speed and lack of web makes it very hard to prevent targets disengaging, not to mention applying the rocket DPS, and virtually all other cruisers or battlecruisers that it can kill in a sensible timeframe will have neuts. Like the dual-rep Vengeance, it's an interesting niche fit.
And yet, the Hawk can avoid engaging all those targets that it can't make a reasonable pass at killing. How interesting that you think of the Hawk as "an interesting niche fit" and yet somehow the Caracal is ok because frig killing in a cruiser is somehow not niche?
Quote: And I'm still waiting to hear what cheap faction shield/tackle mods you think it's useful to fit to a Caracal. I called bull**** on that comment because T1 cruisers have neither the free medslots nor the base resists to make good use of resist amps, faction or otherwise. There are no worthwhile cheap tackle mods, and if you're selling Domination LSBs - which it's absurd to fit to a Caracal anyway - for 5 mill, sell them to me.
Comments: - I'm being cagey on the mods I like because I frankly don't want the competition in the market, and because no matter what mod I point out you're going to say its preposterous to fit to a T1 cruiser. - I'm not SELLING Domi LSBs for 5m. I BUY them for that. - The comment was not only meant for Caracals, but for all T1/faction/pirate cruisers, and for T1/faction/pirate frigs - Complaining about cheap faction mods when people regularly recommend expensive Meta 3/4 mods/guns is really stupid - which was the entire point of the post you're *****ing about.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.27 17:08:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
[snip]
- I'm not SELLING Domi LSBs for 5m. I BUY them for that.
-Liang
I call shenanigans! I've NEVER EVER EVER seen a Domi LSB for less than 15M ISK. Tell me where you buy yours from...I'll clean that place out. Oh yeah, and I'll buy your whole stock for 6M a piece.
Other comments:
1. Why you mad? 2. No matter what you say, faction mods on a T1 cruiser is absurd. Even more absurd on a T1 frig. We all know the fitting of most T1 ships is more than the hull is worth, but when you're fitting a single piece that's 3x or more the cost of the hull, you should stop. 3. A well fit and flown Caracal is likely to make mince-meat of any T1 frig. The frig simply doesn't have the tank to outlast the Caracal's gank.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.05.27 17:26:00 -
[106]
Liang.
You appear to have mistaken me for someone who has claimed that the Caracal is "fine". If you wipe the rabid foam from your mouth and read my posts, you will discover this. One of the reasons that I stopped sodding about in lowsec in a Caracal over a year ago because by then everyone had realised that it was deadly to frigates, hence there was little reason to fly it solo any more.
Nevertheless, I'm happy to hold the view that it's a better gang antifrigate platform than its cruiser competitors - while agreeing that this is a niche role and further believing that a) the gang would be better off fitting ewar and HMLs and b) the pilot should be in a Drake or Hurricane anyway because almost all cruisers are overshadowed by tier 2 battlecruisers.
I can sell Domi LSBs at ~15 mill, Therefore, they are worth 15 mill. It doesn't matter what you can get them for. I really shouldn't be having to explain this to you.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.05.27 17:57:00 -
[107]
caracal needs a remake it is so ugly and uncreative
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Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.27 18:05:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Naomi Knight caracal needs a remake it is so ugly and uncreative
I agree with this. I can think of a lot of ships that need a redo.
Then again, it's kind of a classic EvE silhouette.
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Cephelange du'Krevviq
Caldari Seventh Exploration and Engagement Command
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Posted - 2011.05.27 18:11:00 -
[109]
The Caracal is one of the relative few Caldari ships that are symmetrical. Leave it be, I say.
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NoLimit Soldier
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Posted - 2011.05.27 18:14:00 -
[110]
1. A caracal can kill frigs, but far less effective than when other cruisers are designed for it (dual web ruppy and my worst nightmare: Neut plated Vexor)
2. The caracal sucks. But so does the omen. So does the thorax. At least it isn't the stabber. It has a role in fleet, and is so-so at frigate swatting. What more do you want from a non-top tier ship?
Complain about how much the CERB is worthless compared to other HACs. At least then it would be a real conversation. You can take a Rook and make it a better HAC than the Cerb (it will out damage it, has drones, and can sport a better tank)
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.27 18:50:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Traejun DiSanctis
I call shenanigans! I've NEVER EVER EVER seen a Domi LSB for less than 15M ISK. Tell me where you buy yours from...I'll clean that place out. Oh yeah, and I'll buy your whole stock for 6M a piece.
1. Pay more attention 2. No. 1m ISK ea isn't enough time for me to bother hauling the **** back to market.
Quote: 1. Why you mad?
Because you guys are being ******ed.
Quote:
2. No matter what you say, faction mods on a T1 cruiser is absurd. Even more absurd on a T1 frig. We all know the fitting of most T1 ships is more than the hull is worth, but when you're fitting a single piece that's 3x or more the cost of the hull, you should stop.
You are already fitting 10x more ISK to your ship than it effectively costs you. Why ***** about a faction/deadspace module? It's not like they're expensive.
Quote: 3. A well fit and flown Caracal is likely to make mince-meat of any T1 frig. The frig simply doesn't have the tank to outlast the Caracal's gank.
Ok, but it's no more likely than an actually competent PVP cruiser. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.05.27 19:30:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Cephelange du'Krevviq The Caracal is one of the relative few Caldari ships that are symmetrical. Leave it be, I say.
yes it is but it doesnt make it look good, the blackbird looks way more badass than the caracal even the moa is better imho
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Suzu Fujibayashi
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Posted - 2011.05.27 20:47:00 -
[113]
Oho, almost 5 pages for a caracal thread.
Btw, I've flown an AML caracal solo and frigs are still flocking to you to die.
Killing a cruiser is a bit tricky 'cause of the low damage but possible. It's not like there are so many cruiser around anyway.
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Henry Uliver
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Posted - 2011.05.27 21:14:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Cephelange du'Krevviq The Caracal is one of the relative few Caldari ships that are symmetrical. Leave it be, I say.
yes it is but it doesnt make it look good, the blackbird looks way more badass than the caracal even the moa is better imho
What the **** did you just... I don't even.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2011.05.28 09:56:00 -
[115]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 28/05/2011 09:59:22 I'd like to weigh in, as someone who's flown Caracals rather a lot, and Caldari ships in general.
I'd disagree with the OP. Caldari have a reasonably good lineup for PvP in the T1 cruiser department. The place where it falls apart - partly at least - is solo PvP. But then Caldari have that problem across the board, really.
The Blaster Moa is a passable solo PvP ship, but it isn't a rupture or a 'rax.
Blackbird is an excellent gang ship - the first choice of T1 cruisers in my opinion.
So too, believe it or not, is the Caracal. I can do really quite handy amounts of damage from extreme range. Battleships usually have to work to clear 100km range, but the Caracal can do it with 'ordinary' ammunition. (Yes, I know it needs a sensor booster too). But still, 260dps with 120km range is not sloppy at all.
That's really quite a potent way to stay out of trouble - you can be a long way off. You're limited in ability to bring tank, firepower and tackle, this is true - but you'll find that this problem exists in most of the Caldari lineup.
The harsh truth is - if you're flying Caldari, get used to requiring teamwork. Very few of the ships are good 'all rounders', but a lot of them come close to 'best in class' at any given role.
More generally though - I think all the T1 cruisers, and the tier 1 BCs could do with a bit of a touch up. I mean seriously - you've seen a Caracal, have you ever tried outfitting an Omen? There's a ship with real issues.
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vaseel
Caldari Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.05.28 22:22:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Smodab Ongalot Edited by: Smodab Ongalot on 25/05/2011 22:31:36 Edited by: Smodab Ongalot on 25/05/2011 22:31:20 The phrase I keep seeing over and over in this thread is "good anti-frig ship".
I would like to respectfully disagree with that....
http://sotf.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8852970
I wouldn't use that crap fit caracal as the basis of your argument.
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Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.02 11:57:00 -
[117]
Caracal is fine and is one of the best solo PvP Cruisers in the game. ---
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