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Tariq Assamite
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Posted - 2011.05.23 00:11:00 -
[1]
The Caracal is in need of major buffs. None of the Caldari cruisers are viable for pvp! |
Alara IonStorm
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Posted - 2011.05.23 00:50:00 -
[2]
They are very Viable and the Caracal is second best of the line. Functioning as an Anti Frig Craft primarily and a Sniper Secondary. The Blackbird is a great ECM Ship and the Moa is a passible Blaster Ship.
Saying they are not functional is a mistake, saying that they could use a buff I agree with. The cost of a T1 Cruiser rigged and insured is not much different then a Teir 2 Battlecruiser. T1 Cruisers suffer because there is almost no role a Battlecruiser can not preform with a better tank, more firepower and tackle. Even speed as most Cruisers can not out run a Nano Cane which can out tank and DPS the heaviest of Cruisers.
Right now there are 3 Cruisers that show the most use. The Rupture which is able to fit a 1600mm Plate and 220mm's with full tackle and a Drone Bay. The Arbitrator between Tank, Drones, TD and Nuets makes a good addition to gangs and the Blackbird which is ECM.
There are several issues that make most of the others get jammed into niche roles that can be preformed much better by Battlecruisers, have no use or do not have the stats for the job.
Thorax: Has fitting issues while the Rupture fits 1600mm and 220mm guns the Rax can not even fit Ions and and 800mm Plate w/o Powergrid Rigs.
Omen: Huge Power Grid and CPU Issues.
Maller: Obvious Bait role, with little DPS, people prefer Autocannons.
Moa: Since Rails are horribad with no Dmg it is usually run with blasters with around the same tank/Dmg potential as a Rax.
Stabber: Fast but light on Firepower and Drones, not enough Mids/Lows and to many Highs. Nano Rupture does it better.
Caracal: Good for anti Frig work mostly.
Vexor: Alright but really just get a Myrmidon.
Celestis: Poor Ewar
Bellicose: Poor Ewar
T1 Logi's: Just to much fail there to put into words. Between horrible fitting, Cap, Tank and no direct bonus besides range.
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Most of these ships fill a niche role that Battlecruisers can do better leaving most of these Cruisers to be skipped over. There speed and Sig is not noticable over a Battlecruisers tank, especially with the Nano Canes, GTFO ability. IMO the entire Cruiser system needs an overhaul or Teir 2 Battlecruisers need a nerf. Even in T2 Cruisers this is relelavent. The Vega and Zealot have excellent roles as a Nano Kiter and small sig DPS Sniper. The Ishtar gets some PVP use and the Cerb does ok in Drake gangs mostly. That leaves the Eagle, Diemos, Sacrilige, Muninn in the cold as well as the Basilisk and Oneiros. The Bad Ewar for the Recons have had better EWAR added and the Hictor's have a unique role.
Still in todays EVE a lot of ships have been forgotten about, especially with the rise of the Hurricane and Drake taking over what used to be former Cruisers role. A lot of these ships should be revisited so that we see more of them on the feild and so we can lessen the insane ammounts of Battlecruisers which have flooded EVE eclipsing everything else.
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Plus 1
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Posted - 2011.05.23 01:41:00 -
[3]
T1 cruisers in general tend to have fitting issues.
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Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.23 08:20:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Plus 1
T1 cruisers in general tend to have fitting issues.
This. There just seem to be a lot more sacrifices that need to be made to fit most T1 Cruisers. In PvE, those sacrifices don't really matter. In PvP, they're killers.
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Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2011.05.23 13:26:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Tariq Assamite
The Caracal is in need of major buffs. None of the Caldari cruisers are viable for pvp!
Viable--they are absolutely viable. Best thing out there for toe-to-toe engagements against other racial cruisers inside scram/web range? No.
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Diesel47
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Posted - 2011.05.23 13:28:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Diesel47 on 23/05/2011 13:28:20
The only cruiser that is worth flying is the rupture and maybe vexor.
Cruisers all need a buff in general.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.23 14:02:00 -
[7]
The caracal may not do what you want, but its maybe the most useful T1 cruiser.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.05.23 14:06:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Still in todays EVE a lot of ships have been forgotten about, especially with the rise of the Hurricane and Drake taking over what used to be former Cruisers role. A lot of these ships should be revisited so that we see more of them on the feild and so we can lessen the insane ammounts of Battlecruisers which have flooded EVE eclipsing everything else.
Yeah, there's a real problem with tier 2 battlecruisers. They need nerfing hard. The Hurricane is the worst offender, as it's basically better than a cruiser at being a cruiser. Since it can be fit to be faster and more agile, and with more EHP and DPS, than almost all T1 cruisers, the only real motivation to fly a typical T1 combat cruiser is price (and the price difference between a Rupture and Hurricane is not very big) and the somewhat nebulous factor of disguising your own strength.
The relationship between the Caracal and Drake is healthier actually, since the Caracal's missile velocity bonus makes it a better long-range DPS/ewar support or antifrigate platform. The Blackbird is in no danger of being usurped by the Drake, but you can quite easily argue that the Drake is a better tracking-disruption/RSD/painter platform than the Arbitrator/Celestis/Bellicose.
Nerf all tier 2 BCs to tier 1 levels. Remove slots and weapon points, cut EHP, make them harder to fit.
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Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.05.23 14:14:00 -
[9]
Please dont touch the best ship line in EVE.
Stop using T1 cruisers. There is a reason recons, HAC;s and hics exists.
They are BETTER.
t1 cruisers stand no chance whatsoever against t2 and t3's
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Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.23 14:18:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Straight Edged
Please dont touch the best ship line in EVE.
Stop using T1 cruisers. There is a reason recons, HAC;s and hics exists.
They are BETTER.
t1 cruisers stand no chance whatsoever against t2 and t3's
Nobody is talking about the T2 and T3 cruiser hulls. I think it's pretty safe to say that those ships are all pretty damn good.
As for the T1 cruisers...OP has a fine point. They are a bit lacking in performance in all roles other than missions/ratting.
Do they really need to be fixed? Well, I'd say yes...but I'd prefer some new ships rather than fixing old ones.
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Batelle
-Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.05.23 14:24:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Nerf all tier 2 BCs to tier 1 levels. Remove slots and weapon points, cut EHP, make them harder to fit.
you listed all the ways to nerf them, it actuality you'd only need a slight nerf to bring them in line. Also, no need to nerf the myrmidon. on the whole though I agree, t2 bc's need a nerf.
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EC-P8R... You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. |
Fulmar Muse
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.23 14:28:00 -
[12]
moa; add in the greatness that is crystals, it becomes one of the best cruisers... no other cruiser can match it's active tank when done correctly.
Almost killed my crystally drake :3
caracal is a cheap throwaway anti-frig platform, or can also sport the awesomeness that is heavy missiles, HMs are the best missiles as everyone knows, alsothe navy caracal is a fun ship alsothe cerberus I hear aint half bad when using it in it's neich. Both are fast heavy missile platforms and therefore an easy stepping stone to more hardcore pvp.
Caracal in no way needs a buff, same with the moa, ferox and rokh...
Although a buff to railguns wouldn't b half bad 
"Keep on doin what you doin, do it gud.. "
Super fly] |
Straight Edged
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Posted - 2011.05.23 14:42:00 -
[13]
Quote:
Nobody is talking about the T2 and T3 cruiser hulls. I think it's pretty safe to say that those ships are all pretty damn good.
As for the T1 cruisers...OP has a fine point. They are a bit lacking in performance in all roles other than missions/ratting.
Do they really need to be fixed? Well, I'd say yes...but I'd prefer some new ships rather than fixing old ones.
my point is, just like t1 frigs gets but****d by drakes and cruisers, t1 cruisers gets ****d by almost any t2 cruiser or t1bc/bs. Its their "weakness" afterall.
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OT Smithers
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Posted - 2011.05.23 17:13:00 -
[14]
The Caracal, like other Caldari ships, is a fleet and gang support platform. In a solo role it is less impressive. Given that this is so, the question then is: How effective is it at this role, particularly when compared to similar ships from other races. What advantage does it have that other cruisers lack, and what did it give up to get it.
The Caracal suffers from serious fitting issues, making fitting the normal medium weapons (used by other cruisers) difficult or impossible without making sacrifices other cruiser class ships never face, the tank is average at best, the speed and agility is relatively poor while the sig radius is large, the lack of low slots means the pilot wishing to employ a damage control is restricted to only a single ballistic control damage mod, it lacks utility high slots, and it offers a pitiful drone bay.
The caracal can spam low-DPS assault missiles at medium ranges, making it a marginally effective frigate killer.
Even in this role, however, the Caracal has issues. The Caracal pilot must sacrifice 20% of his already pathetic firepower to fit a neut, meaning that most frigates he engages (including T1) will actually push out more DPS than he does. Nor can he fit a web without dropping his tank into frigate territory, and finally he lacks the most useful weapon against frigates û drones.
Another common fitting is to use HMLÆs and sacrifice the already mediocre tank. In this role it still will not compare to the firepower other cruisers bring to the table, and it wonÆt have their tank, but it will have range û assuming the situation and enemy permit. Here again though, the lack of tank and drones for defense makes this fitting questionable.
Where the Caracal (like most other Caldari ships) really shines is on the forums. Here you will find lots of pilots who would never dream of using the thing in game, singing its praises and shouting down anyone who asks for a bit of balance. But thatÆs EVE.
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Cephelange du'Krevviq
Caldari
Seventh Exploration and Engagement Command
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Posted - 2011.05.23 17:22:00 -
[15]
I don't think the Caracal is a good solo PvP hull; it does do well, as was said, in a fleet/gang. It has excellent range for a cruiser, though its damage is delayed by its missiles flight times. So long as there is a tackler for it to pair with, it can do well, in my opinion.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.05.23 17:26:00 -
[16]
Originally by: OT Smithers
The Caracal, like other Caldari ships, is a fleet and gang support platform. In a solo role it is less impressive. Given that this is so, the question then is: How effective is it at this role, particularly when compared to similar ships from other races. What advantage does it have that other cruisers lack, and what did it give up to get it.
The Caracal suffers from serious fitting issues, making fitting the normal medium weapons (used by other cruisers) difficult or impossible without making sacrifices other cruiser class ships never face, the tank is average at best, the speed and agility is relatively poor while the sig radius is large, the lack of low slots means the pilot wishing to employ a damage control is restricted to only a single ballistic control damage mod, it lacks utility high slots, and it offers a pitiful drone bay.
The caracal can spam low-DPS assault missiles at medium ranges, making it a marginally effective frigate killer.
Even in this role, however, the Caracal has issues. The Caracal pilot must sacrifice 20% of his already pathetic firepower to fit a neut, meaning that most frigates he engages (including T1) will actually push out more DPS than he does. Nor can he fit a web without dropping his tank into frigate territory, and finally he lacks the most useful weapon against frigates û drones.
Another common fitting is to use HMLÆs and sacrifice the already mediocre tank. In this role it still will not compare to the firepower other cruisers bring to the table, and it wonÆt have their tank, but it will have range û assuming the situation and enemy permit. Here again though, the lack of tank and drones for defense makes this fitting questionable.
Where the Caracal (like most other Caldari ships) really shines is on the forums. Here you will find lots of pilots who would never dream of using the thing in game, singing its praises and shouting down anyone who asks for a bit of balance. But thatÆs EVE.
Hi I have used the ship in game for years and find it to be one of the best frig killers money can buy.
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Buzzmong
Aliastra
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Posted - 2011.05.23 17:38:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Buzzmong on 23/05/2011 17:41:08
T1 cruisers suffer from the same problem T1 frigates do: The tier system kicks them in the backside rather hard.
The tier 1 cruisers can be ignored though as they're all utility vessels in reality (Exequror has a cargo bonus = hauler, Osprey and the Scythe are for mining etc...). The Augoror I've not looked at, bonus-wise it is perhaps the only viable T1 logistics ship, but I've no idea if it suffers from lack of fittings.
That said, a couple in tier 2 do need a bit of love. The Omen is one as it really badly needs a PG and maybe CPU boost. The Celestis suffered from RSD's being nerfed heavily, which compounded its difficultly in fitting effective setups. The Stabber isn't a bad ship though for its intended kiting role, and the Arbitrator and Vexor only need small tweaks in fitting (nearly impossible to fit medium med rails and a med rep on a vex for example but they're not primary weapons on it, so not a massive issue).
The Caracal is perhaps the only tier 2 cruiser that is actually well balanced for it's intended role. It excels at an anti-frigate pvp role with AML's and isn't bad at all with HML's (less tank is the tradeoff). The lack of a third low slot is makes only a couple of AML or HML fits viable, which is a shame. The Blackbird is a good ECM ship.
The tier 3's do need to be looked at. The Ruppie is about the only standout one. Thorax needs a PG boost (so does its t2 variants, especially the Deimos) and a bit of a diet to lose some kg's. The Moa is a shambles, it looks horrible and flys quite badly, compounding the issues that Hybrids have, the Caracal is generally more effective in every which way. The Maller is an odd beast as it works rather well as a tough nugget bait ship but it is pointless to use when a Proph does it better for roughly the same cost after it goes pop (factoring in Insurance).
tl:dr?
Caracal is fine barring being a low slot short. Other cruisers need a boost, namely Omen. |
OT Smithers
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Posted - 2011.05.23 17:45:00 -
[18]
Originally by: baltec1
Hi I have used the ship in game for years and find it to be one of the best frig killers money can buy.
Nice  Again though, just because a Caracal does well against smaller weaker ships does not mean that it is fine as is. Further, ANY Cruiser that is set up to wipe out frigates is going to slaughter them (a fact that a great many frigate pilots seem to forget). I killed a Dramiel with an Osprey just last night, but that doesn't mean that I think the Osprey is a Vexor or Rupture. And neither is a Caracal.
It's not CRAP, but it really could use a tune up. |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.23 18:47:00 -
[19]
ITT: ****ing morons claiming a ****ty T1 cruiser is fine because it can kill frigs. I hear the Prophecy is the best T1 BC because it can tank too. 
Morons.
-Liang
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.05.23 18:52:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
ITT: ****ing morons claiming a ****ty T1 cruiser is fine because it can kill frigs. I hear the Prophecy is the best T1 BC because it can tank too.
Morons.
-Liang
It can also **** destroyer hulls if that helps.
But seriously the caracal is far from broken, unlike many other cruisers.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.23 18:58:00 -
[21]
Originally by: baltec1
It can also **** destroyer hulls if that helps.
But seriously the caracal is far from broken, unlike many other cruisers.
I guess you think the Omen is a fine and dandy cruiser too.
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Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.05.23 19:08:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: baltec1
It can also **** destroyer hulls if that helps.
But seriously the caracal is far from broken, unlike many other cruisers.
I guess you think the Omen is a fine and dandy cruiser too.
Nope, that needs way more room but even that is more usefull than an Augoror. Only use I ever had for one of them was as a glorified battery for Guardians.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.23 19:45:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
ITT: ****ing morons claiming a ****ty T1 cruiser is fine because it can kill frigs. I hear the Prophecy is the best T1 BC because it can tank too.
Morons.
-Liang
Umm why does that make us "morons?" T1 cruisers can kill T2 cruisers. Why should they be good at killing better ships.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.23 22:35:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: Liang Nuren
ITT: ****ing morons claiming a ****ty T1 cruiser is fine because it can kill frigs. I hear the Prophecy is the best T1 BC because it can tank too.
Morons.
-Liang
Umm why does that make us "morons?" T1 cruisers can kill T2 cruisers. Why should they be good at killing better ships.
What in the **** are you even responding to bro? I didn't say anything about T2 cruisers. I said that it's ******ed to claim a cruiser is "good" or "fine" or "the mother ****ing best" because it can kill T1 frigs. Any cruiser is a T1 frig **** machine. And let's just be real here - the only reason it's "best" at killing frigs is because it's the "****ing Noob" PVE cruiser too and people are willing to chance it.
-Liang
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Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
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Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.23 22:41:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: Liang Nuren
ITT: ****ing morons claiming a ****ty T1 cruiser is fine because it can kill frigs. I hear the Prophecy is the best T1 BC because it can tank too.
Morons.
-Liang
Umm why does that make us "morons?" T1 cruisers can kill T2 cruisers. Why should they be good at killing better ships.
Pilot skill/knowledge has to matter - and that's why well-fit/operated T1 cruisers can smoke a T2 cruiser under certain circumstances.
If skill/knowledge had nothing to do with it, then this game wouldn't be much fun at all.
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Roosterton
The 57th Overlanders
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Posted - 2011.05.24 03:48:00 -
[26]
T1 cruisers shouldn't be able to compete with tier 2 battlecruisers when solo; there's a reason why the BC's cost about 35mil more when fitted, and are more skill reliant. As they currently are, cruisers are good - they're cheap-ish, mobile ships which have the ability to field either the tank OR the DPS of a battlecruiser. Even the lolCelestis and Bellicose have their place in a fleet situation, and the Omen can actually be fitted if you use Quad Light Beams. And the t1 logis are an awesome way for noobs who can't fly any better to make themselves useful.
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Enemy corps raided into disbandment: Three.
Originally by: Tarminic
OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?! |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.24 04:10:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Roosterton
T1 cruisers shouldn't be able to compete with tier 2 battlecruisers when solo
I just went back and reread the thread from top to bottom. I saw nobody claiming that the Caracal (or T1 cruisers in general) should be direct competitors to BCs (either Tier 1 or Tier 2). T1 cruisers are naturally limited in utility next to HACs/Recons/BCs/pretty much whatever. They have fewer slots, fewer/weaker bonuses, less fittings, and more.
There's absolutely no danger to HACs/Recons/Whatever in boosting the Caracal (or even better, eliminating the ship tier system entirely).
-Liang
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Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
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Roosterton
The 57th Overlanders
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Posted - 2011.05.24 04:46:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Roosterton
T1 cruisers shouldn't be able to compete with tier 2 battlecruisers when solo
I just went back and reread the thread from top to bottom. I saw nobody claiming that the Caracal (or T1 cruisers in general) should be direct competitors to BCs (either Tier 1 or Tier 2). T1 cruisers are naturally limited in utility next to HACs/Recons/BCs/pretty much whatever. They have fewer slots, fewer/weaker bonuses, less fittings, and more.
There's absolutely no danger to HACs/Recons/Whatever in boosting the Caracal (or even better, eliminating the ship tier system entirely).
-Liang
Quote:
Most of these ships fill a niche role that Battlecruisers can do better leaving most of these Cruisers to be skipped over.
^^ Mainly what I was referring to in terms of the battlecruiser comment.
That having been said, I do agree that the tier system is stupid and should be removed. However, I don't see why cruisers shouldn't have less slots, fittings, etc than BC's/HACs/Recons. They're cheaper and less skill intensive.
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Enemy corps raided into disbandment: Three.
Originally by: Tarminic
OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?! |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.05.24 05:09:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Roosterton
^^ Mainly what I was referring to in terms of the battlecruiser comment.
That having been said, I do agree that the tier system is stupid and should be removed. However, I don't see why cruisers shouldn't have less slots, fittings, etc than BC's/HACs/Recons. They're cheaper and less skill intensive.
Yeah, I see what you're getting at there. T1 cruisers should be worse than HACs/Recons/BCs/etc (as a rule). I'm not going to ask for "perfect numerical balance", because that's a bull**** concept... but, I'd really like to see some congruency of role effectiveness at least within the same ship class. The really stand out terrible cruisers (All Amarr T1 cruisers, Caracal, etc) are so frustrating because they both deprive noobs/broke vets of effective T1 cruisers, but also because they needlessly jack up the role that ship was supposed to fill.
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Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
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Alara IonStorm
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Posted - 2011.05.24 05:26:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Roosterton
Quote:
Most of these ships fill a niche role that Battlecruisers can do better leaving most of these Cruisers to be skipped over.
^^ Mainly what I was referring to in terms of the battlecruiser comment.
The battlecruiser comment is apt in the idea that a Battlecruiser can preform the Cruisers entire plain better. This is not right, for other ships there is always a reason to drop down a level. A Nano Hurricane for instance can tank more, do more DPS with weapons just as Accurate and at the same time be faster then a Cruiser all at the same time. Because of this there are more Hurricanes in use then all Cruisers combined.
The abilities of the T1 Cruiser show very little improvement over there big brother and on top of that most of them have fitting issues that the Battlecruisers do not have which brings me to my next point.
Originally by: Roosterton
That having been said, I do agree that the tier system is stupid and should be removed. However, I don't see why cruisers shouldn't have less slots, fittings, etc than BC's/HACs/Recons. They're cheaper and less skill intensive.
Of course they should have less slots, that is a given as they are smaller ships but less fitting? They have less fitting per slot and that is the issue, the Rupture has the proper ammount of fitting per slot because it can be fit out effectively with all three sizes of weapons, both sizes of plates and it's layout gives it utility while preforming it. Most of the others do not have this fitting utility or Slot Layouts.
You mentioned the Omen needing Quad Lasers, the lowest of the low to fit an 800mm Plate and Microwarp Drive. But why when the Harby can fit a full rack of Focused Pulse and a 1600mm Plate with a Cap Booster and Medium Nuet all the while not using any meta items to cram the rest of the setup on. No doubt it has and should have better fitting but it should not have better fitting per slot. It's increase in fitting should only mirror the fact that it has 18 Slots well in part the Omen having only 13. But for that 5 Slot increase it has over twice the powergrid, for 5 extra slots. The Harbinger is well used because you have room to experiment with effective fits to suit it's role. The Omen on the other hand, not so much and that is why I want them to get a buff.
As for being more Skill intensive, they use all the same skills as Cruisers, Meduim Weapons, Drones, Tackle, Tank. There are no extra skills involved except the Battlecruiser skill itself which isn't a much higher rank then the Cruiser Skill. They have about the same skill intensity.
Fitting Freedom is my major issue as well as poor slot layout.
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