Originally by: Larissa Sunsorrow

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Originally by: Miilla

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Edited by: Miilla on 28/05/2011 11:45:10
So, CCP is making EVE easier for new players

How come they just complicated the currency system with 3 (THREE) ingame currencies?

ISK, PLEX and now AURUM.

Just asking because they said they wanted to make it easier for new players, this goes in the opposite direction.

They are starting to move all items to the market away from fragmented between contract and markets, but now we have this 3 exchange currencies and 3 stores. One in station for AURUM items, the market, and contracts.

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there is a lot of mmos, rts and games with different currencies and nobody complains about that. If you can read you will know how to make an aurum.
This aurum thing is the best microtransaction idea ever. you can get through the game, you can get it with real cash and you can get it from a wreck.

I remember when valve first introduced the item shop on team fortress 2. everybody said that it was bad but everyone is using that **** now. but I don't. And I have nice fancy hats without spending one real penny.

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Originally by: Tayllor04

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what a load of pish

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Originally by: Vincent Athena

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Originally by: Miilla

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Edited by: Miilla on 28/05/2011 12:39:26

So, we can undock with not only PLEX but AURUM in our cargo to be ganked?

So not all station stores have the same items? Hence the need to move AURUM / PLEX about?

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Aurum is in your wallet. Its like isk, you always have it, it never drops, can never be destroyed

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Originally by: Kazsaw

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Originally by: Dark Reignz

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CCP I'm wondering if its possible to implement an in-game vote system that every player can vote on for magor announcements and ideas instead of just getting the same old Elitest views from the bitter veteran forum warriors.

Not sure how it would work but something like, an annoucement or pop up in game asking the entire community to place a vote via the petition system (with an added function specifically for voting).

CCP can then filter out all votes from alts leaving one vote per actual player and finally announce the results ingame on the log in page and in the forums.

Sick and tired now of the said Old elitest and bitter veterans. Also reap the tears just roll out the respec for plex... and fck em all LOL.

If people dont want to use MT systems they dont have to, simples.

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Good idea.

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Originally by: Kale Kold

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Originally by: Mother Fokker

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Torfi said that we would be able ourself to produce vanity items and furniture and stuff for our bars. WE not THEM. Now i come and ask......

Will the bars the rent for upkeep, the furniture the liquor and dancers etc be sold via aurum as well? Because if you do this will go more and more in to the Second Life sphere of gamplay.

This is OUR sandbox and the Sand has been paid for. Dont Shιt in it pls, I am sceptical.

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This tbh!
WTF aren't we just given tools to make our own content and be able to sell it for ISK on the market like other MMO's? This was the idea presented to us at fanfest!!!! No, CCP would rather make the content and charge real money for it!!! Pathetic!!

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Originally by: Kale Kold

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Originally by: Miilla

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They said in the question thread answers we will get the ability to manufacture AURUM items in future.

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Why not now? Oh, thats right. Milk the subscribers first!!!

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Originally by: Sister Megarea

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Originally by: Olivia Berett

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Seriously, where the hell people took the ilusion that "EVE universe is ours ?". The costs related to maintenance and acquisition of such servers, backup powergrids, staff, and developers arent for a couple hundred of subscribers to claim they "pay the bills". I can bet that not even all the subscriptions are enough to pay all the costs. Promotional paraphernalia, paid account services and so on takes part on that.

That reminds me the time I was a teacher and some students upset with the ammount of topics in tests used to say "I pay your salary, you work for me". Simple answer:
"your monthly pay is less than 1% of my earnings, added to the school costs and other non-docent staff. So if you want to claim you pay my salary, here it goes." And I give them two coins of 1 BRL and told them to go to the reception and cancel their enrollment in my classes.

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Sigh. You reinforce the saying "Those who can, to. Those who can't, teach".

A teacher in most modern countries is actually subsidized by the government to a certain extent - This is certainly true in both the United States and Canada, so your statement to the students is certainly true: Their tuitions most certainly don't pay all of your salary, but their tuitions, taxes, parents' taxes and so on certainly do.

CCP, on the other hand, is a business; By the end of 2010, CCP had 357,000 active accounts. Being conservative, let's say that 150,000 of those are paying accounts at $14/month: That's 2,100,000 per month in revenues, or $25,200,000 per year. This does not include additional revenues from PLEXes sold through retailers, books, knick-knacks, etc, etc.

At ~$26 million dollars (At the low end) a year in revenue, CCP is certainly not operating its current subscriber base at a loss.

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Originally by: Kale Kold

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Edited by: Kale Kold on 28/05/2011 14:55:18

Originally by: Sister Megarea

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Though frankly, clothing for Aurum is stupid. It's a common-sense manufacturable item that players should be able to make, which you're breaking the immersion by only allowing the magical space fairies to supply to the market..

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Exactly!

Originally by: CCP Zinfandel

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Let me use an example. CCP released a new ship BPO not that long ago: the Noctis. You needed in game money to participate. You could get that in game money from either buying a PLEX or earning money in game. It would be unfair to describe this as releasing new content behind a pay wall.

If CCP releases pair of leather boots, and you need in game money to participate, you could get that in game money from either buying a PLEX or earning money in game. I believe it is likewise unfair to describe this as releasing new content behind a pay wall.

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TOTAL FAIL AT UNDERSTANDING OWN GAME!!!!

Those leather boots have to come from originally using real money!!! The Noctis blueprint DOES NOT!

There is currently nothing in EVE at the minute that REQUIRES real money to originally be seeded into the economy!

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Originally by: CCP Zinfandel

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Originally by: Morphisat

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Originally by: CCP Zinfandel

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Let me use an example. CCP released a new ship BPO not that long ago: the Noctis. You needed in game money to participate. You could get that in game money from either buying a PLEX or earning money in game. It would be unfair to describe this as releasing new content behind a pay wall.

If CCP releases pair of leather boots, and you need in game money to participate, you could get that in game money from either buying a PLEX or earning money in game. I believe it is likewise unfair to describe this as releasing new content behind a pay wall.

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You sir don't even understand your own game. Someone somewhere had to pay real cash to get said leather boots. The Noctis bpo on the other hand is an in game item

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This is true. But there is another nuance at work here. We aren't just starting this whole thing today. Rather, there are large piles of PLEX and ISK already in the game. The "pay real cash" part you are describing happened long ago.

Yes, people continue to buy more but that is generally either by people who prefer to manage their subscription payments that way or people who prefer to get in-game currency this way.

We would like to offer some items for sale to tempt some of those sitting on piles of cash to spend them.

And the concern that PLEX prices will rise, affecting everyone's ability to use PLEX for subscription time is a known, valid concern. We are actively monitoring this. I'm not allowed to talk about any of the steps we are taking there. I do not want to see PLEX prices rise.

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Originally by: Sister Megarea

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Originally by: CCP Zinfandel

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This is true. But there is another nuance at work here. We aren't just starting this whole thing today. Rather, there are large piles of PLEX and ISK already in the game. The "pay real cash" part you are describing happened long ago.

Yes, people continue to buy more but that is generally either by people who prefer to manage their subscription payments that way or people who prefer to get in-game currency this way.

We would like to offer some items for sale to tempt some of those sitting on piles of cash to spend them.

And the concern that PLEX prices will rise, affecting everyone's ability to use PLEX for subscription time is a known, valid concern. We are actively monitoring this. I'm not allowed to talk about any of the steps we are taking there. I do not want to see PLEX prices rise.

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Except this vanity system will have literally zero effect on those sitting on piles of PLEX - That's not what those collecting them want or need the PLEX for; It's either for account management, big ticket purchases or speculating.

You want a solution to PLEX hoarding ? Here's a really, really simple one:

Announce that as of January 1, 2012, PLEX will have a 6 month life time. PLEX that reaches it's expiration date will automatically be sold at the lowest price in the current region in which it sits.

Before all the screamers start, there are already several mechanisms to protect the economy - and players - from the effects of this:

Lowest price sale: You're not going to see PLEX for sale for 1 ISK, because no one's going to throw away $15 for 1 ISK (and if they did, it'd be snapped up in a minute, so the chances of it affecting the auto-sales are nil)

Account renewals: CCP already offers a four day free account re-activation specifically for people who use PLEX to pay for their accounts; Anyone who's PLEX auto-sold would be able to use this to renew. You could further enhance this by adding a feature to account management along the lines of "Automatically renew my account every X months using any PLEX owned by character X"

Speculators: PLEX is an RMT generation system by CCP: We know that, accept it and, in most cases, welcome it. Because it is the one bridge between in-game and real life, some limitations on the use of PLEX are reasonable; Those who use PLEX for speculation, as those do with gold and oil futures IRL, can easily switch such speculation to other in-game commodities; We've already seen that with things like Hulkageddon, where billions were made on the sale of Hulks and Catalysts. We see it often in the mineral market, too (I'm sure your economist could better comment on this than I)

If you need real ISK sinks that don't affect game play, but will remove some of the ISK (and, potentially, PLEXes), from the system, you have only to look at real life for some excellent examples:

If you wanted to rename a sports stadium "The CCP Centre", that would cost you millions of dollars per year - So why not do the same in Eve ? Wanna rename the Jita Caldari Navy Assembly Plant to "Sister Megareas Station o' Doom" ? That'll be 500 million ISK per month. (You'd have to add a right-click or some other mechanism to allow players to see the actual empire affiliation for missions and standing, etc)

That moon your POS orbits around have a boring name ? Instead of Amo V, Moon 3, how about "Megareas Moon of Mystery" ? 500 million ISK per month.

Want one of those cool news boards that you see at the jump gates, anchored at your POS ? 1 Billion ISK - and yes, they're destructible.

Your alliance has just taken control of a star cluster ? How cool would it be instead of ZX-22-01 to have "Goonswarm Cluster" ? 1 Billion ISK/ month

Alternatively/equally, the examples above could all be done with RL money, too, though as an ISK sink, it'd be better, especially combined with a PLEX lifespan.

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Originally by: Sister Megarea

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Originally by: Miilla

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Edited by: Miilla on 28/05/2011 15:36:57

QUEUE HERE to gank poster for wanting PLEX Lifespan.

Congratulations for becoming the most wanted player in eve.

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So given the integral tie between RL and the EVE economy, can you tell me why you'd want or need to keep multiple PLEXes in your inventory for a year or more ?

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Originally by: Olivia Berett

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The "must have" for some about plex would generate an entire new black market of plex. Those having plex could easly avoid market control of prices just by starting to sell plexes "in hand" by any price they want, or else buying vanity itens and selling them instead.

For some time people can drop out due to this "certain" step, but then the ones already into EVE will suck it up and abide to the law of capitalism: "The ones with the means are the only ones allowed to be mean."

In any case, the ones wanting to spend real money in EVE are the ones driving its future, and chances that the others will do so are slim to none.

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Originally by: CCP Zinfandel

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Hey Miilla,

We need to do development work on the character creator in order to be able to offer the bloodline respec service you want. We'd been hoping to offer something and the only things preventing us right now are technical issues. I'm very much with you on this. But I think I'm straying a little off topic here.

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Originally by: Sister Megarea

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Originally by: Gwenywell Shumuku

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Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku on 28/05/2011 15:46:02
Thx btw, plex are spiking as we speak, 417 and going strong. A few ppl are very very happy right now

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I'm seeing a slight drop in Minmatar space: 411 million last night in Rens; 405 million right now.

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Originally by: Anddeh McNab

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Originally by: Miilla

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Why? Just reset my toon to be not modelled yet, change my bloodline to a new one that I pick on a bloodline selection screen.

Why complicate it.

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So CCP has basically said they're giving you want your keep ranting unendingly about and still you mock them? Your loud mouthed selfishness is beyond belief, as is your lack of understanding about anything beyond trade scams.

As for this weeks topic of rage: CCP is not so much walking on thin ice with Microtransactions as more wading knee deep in ice-water. They can plainly see the reaction to just vanity items, the moment they introduce MT items they give an advantage there will be alot of angry people in Iceland waving pitch forks.

One question I have not yet seen answered (I think), what about clothes and jump clones? I can't imagine (and hope) that my choice of attire will follow when I infomorph my way across the galaxy.

Also, with what frequency will we see further additions to the clothing market? So far the choices on Duality are a little limited to just military uniforms (and not even racial ones at that). Will there be more choice on June 21st or will we have to wait for a subsequent patch for some Tribal clothing?

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Originally by: Olivia Berett

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Originally by: Miilla

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It's really going to be fun patching..


New Pants: 200mb download.

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If they do it right, no. If you have something like a metalanguage like the XML based of most VW, then you have one style of a particular item, you have them all.

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Originally by: Olivia Berett

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Some cool thing CCP could do is to start selling systems by IRL currency.

You pay something aroud 1000 USD to buy and around 300 for monthly fee, and you have your own hisec system with a "personal concord" that will do the same regular concord does in empire space, but based upon the standings towards your corp.

Then sov problems will be gone for good. LoL

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Originally by: Tres Farmer

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Originally by: Miilla

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Basically CCP are asking you to trade 30 days game time for a hat and monacle.

Great trade.

stop calling it plex and call it what it is, 30 days game time.

Makes it even more a bad taste doesnt it.

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I'm starting to wonder if the economy guys have been involved at all with this.
AURUM wont remove the PLEX piles, as anyone who is trading in them is just interested in accumulating more wealth and transfer it over time the most safe and convenient way.
If you convert them into AURUM you just get out of them via vanity items/isk and then you can and will go back to PLEX.

Real world faces those problems too.. frequent flyer points and what not there is in bonus-point programs. They all face customers with stockpiles of points, that aren't being converted as they don't age and vanish over time.
Same goes for PLEX or later AURUM.

Somebody on the page before had the right idea.. create pressure if you want to get rid of the PLEX piles. Attach a 'BEST BEFORE' - like: "CCP guaranties the servers will be up for 6 months after the purchase of this PLEX" and that's it.

BTW.. the real world financial system has exactly the same failure built in.

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Originally by: WisdomPanda

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If you look very carefully, there is a step most of you missing.
(Hint: It contains 'ISK')

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Originally by: Sister Megarea

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Originally by: WisdomPanda

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If you look very carefully, there is a step most of you missing.
(Hint: It contains 'ISK')

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If you're trying to suggest Aurum can be purchased with ISK only, you're wrong: Someone has to purchase the PLEX in the first place with a CC in order to get the aurum. PLEX cannot, in any way, shape or form come into existence in the Eve universe without someone purchasing it with a CC.

To date, it's the only "magical space fairies" deus ex machina that's been more or less accepted by the Eve community and only because of the RMT scourge that really does affect us all.

Aurum tied to PLEX will make this problem even worse.

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Originally by: Stormchyld

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Originally by: Olivia Berett

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But that is the point.

People are so worried about things that CAN happen. And then CCP does that CQ, make some lounge where people can meet in AVs. And then, like before, they just abandon the goals and make some other. Lets say, make an expansion "Cataclismus" and put up Jove chars available for those with at least lvl V in each technology skill under science. (familiar, isnt it ?). Or, jove chars available for plex.

There are an entire "theoretical future" to whine about, why spend so much effort whining about future vanity itens sucking up plex wanted by "play to pay" pilots ?

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ummmm... because of people's prior experiences with other MMO's that have done this... and that the price of PLEX is already rising even tho the CCP master's of the unverse with their accounting tools hasn't stopped that? not to mention that my 45.00 a month for 3 accounts should NEVER have me concerned that I'm going to be sitting in a CQ with a freakin orange suit on because I don't choose to play their greed game? should I go on master?

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Originally by: Sister Megarea

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Originally by: Miilla

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More than 1 account is daft really, especially more than 2.

I play with 1 toon and one account. I play for fun, not as a second job.

They already seen they can milk subscriptions out of players and they get 2 or 3x or sometimes more their money from a single person.

Now they want more. They have already seen how gullable people are.

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Now you're making assumptions on what other people consider "fun".

I've got three accounts. When I play, it's almost always with two online at once: One is the mission runner, the other the salvager, or one is the hitter, the other the scanner/scrammer/webber/scout.

I'll bring all three online when I need large amounts of ice or ore, because filling an Orca with two hulks/mackinaws is a helluva lot faster than one hulk jetcanning or going back and forth.

To me, that's $45 of entertainment money well spent. Maybe not to you, but I'm happy spending it and get value for it.

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Originally by: Sister Megarea

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Originally by: Miilla

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Originally by: Sister Megarea

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Originally by: Miilla

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More than 1 account is daft really, especially more than 2.

I play with 1 toon and one account. I play for fun, not as a second job.

They already seen they can milk subscriptions out of players and they get 2 or 3x or sometimes more their money from a single person.

Now they want more. They have already seen how gullable people are.

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Now you're making assumptions on what other people consider "fun".

I've got three accounts. When I play, it's almost always with two online at once: One is the mission runner, the other the salvager, or one is the hitter, the other the scanner/scrammer/webber/scout.

I'll bring all three online when I need large amounts of ice or ore, because filling an Orca with two hulks/mackinaws is a helluva lot faster than one hulk jetcanning or going back and forth.

To me, that's $45 of entertainment money well spent. Maybe not to you, but I'm happy spending it and get value for it.

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Yes you are right, im basing that off my single toon game. I find the yearly expensive enough. I play everything on one character. I feel they are already milking me lol.

I find using one toon enjoyable, managing more is just a headache for me and costs much more which I personally see as a waste that could be spend on books, food. travel and other niceties.

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Ironically enough, Eve *saves* me money from buying other games, trying them out and discovering I didn't like them, thus $60 down the drain.

Equally ironically, when I was using a solo account in 2009, my constant thought was "This would be a lot easier if I didn't have to constantly switch ships to haul or salvage... Hey, wait a minute..." :)

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Originally by: Dravon Yar

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CCP has always said the EVE has a strong community. Why not also acknowledge that many of us in the community have some talent and build us some tools or write up some tutorials so that we can supply the content for Incarna. If you wish, all entries could be reviewed by CCP before they are released in-game so that CCP can still have some measure of control. You say that money is an issue.. but many of us want to work.. for isk perhaps. I know I would.

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Originally by: Grey Stormshadow

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hmm... if you don't have any better idea to counter this "plexes piling up problem" try binding them to account after one has been sold in market with isk, traded, looted, contracted or transferred to another account by any other method.

This will limit the market manipulation for those people who actually buy the plex with real world currency and leaves the investors out from the cycle.

This would not prevent converting plexes to AUR. For this reason AUR should be made entirely separate currency and should be buyable only with real life money.

Currently the plex prices are going up and investors are thrilled. If you want some isk and plexes to vanish from the game, try the above approach instead.

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Originally by: Kavin Alavandar

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Edited by: Kavin Alavandar on 28/05/2011 19:31:42

Originally by: S'qarpium D'igil

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Edited by: S''qarpium D''igil on 28/05/2011 19:20:22
It's all a scam to milk more money out of paying subscribers.

Of course, you could say "if you don't want it, don't pay for it." But what if we do want it but we don't want to pay for it because we are already paying you?

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Wow, I have to try this on my landlord.


Edit: And insurance company.

Edit #2: And my favorite restaurant.

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Originally by: Morar Santee

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Edited by: Morar Santee on 29/05/2011 14:18:11

Originally by: Tres Farmer

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You can have infaltion/deflation in several markets at the same time.
It depends on the flexibility of the prices and volumes of the goods/money involved.
PLEX are not as flexible in amount as other items. Thus you'll see an increased money supply at first on items that can't rise as fast as the money supply.
Completely different matter for stuff like tritanium or ships.
Now, if you look at technetium, that's a restricted resource with limited supply.
Guess what happens to it's price?

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Actually... no. Inflation is an absolute number determined by measuring money value against a given range of products. It is not possible to measure money value against single products or product categories to determine inflation. If money value is measured against single products, all you will ever see is a fluctuating price, which is determined by supply and demand as much as actual money value.

You gave the best example yourself. Blaming increased technetium prices on inflation, rather than realizing the reason is increased market throughput relying on a static resource (which is creating higher demand), is a fail of the first category. This does not constitute (or reliably indicate) inflation in any way. We merely happen to know it contributes to inflation indirectly because continued market growth will lead to increased prices of technetium and related products, and therefore devalue ISK relatively to it.

Again: Trying to determine inflation by comparing prices of products with static supply while demand is increasing (while ignoring all else) is fail.

Originally by: Tres Farmer

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CCP tries the following:

Problem: to many PLEX are being created and not enough used - they stockpile

Solution: divert part of the cash that buys plex towards vanity items that other players ingame want, but wouldn't pay with cash for it, but with isk.
Let the cash>isk people buy those vanity items (can that be even more complex as it's now proposed by CCP, lol?) and sell them for isk.

Result: less PLEX will be created (inflation will cause their price to go straight up), vanity items for players will be created, some people will get isk from that and ccp is happy.

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Yes, I know exactly what CCP is trying. And yes, I'm sure CCP is happy if people pay them for PLEXes which disappear into nothingness somewhere down the line (because the items bought via Aurum(PLEX) are destructible).

That doesn't address the much bigger problem of ISK-inflation in any way, but you are right: Both increased demand and inflation will drive PLEX prices through the roof. But worry not, CCP is monitoring closely. Oh.. right.

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