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Jim diGriz
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Posted - 2003.07.01 21:53:00 -
[1]
Every other MMOG is sending this out to their customers.
CCP. How about having your billing system send out an email when you are about to take a payment from our credit cards? It would be nice to be notified when we are about to get billed! :)
--
Effective immediately, customers who reside within the European Union will be charged VAT equal to 17.5% of their subscription fees.
To comply with changes in the law in the European Union, subscribers who are residents of EU countries will be charged VAT equal to 17.5% of the subscription fees. These changes require that digital services be taxed at the point of consumption , i.e. in your country of residence. The countries currently covered by this policy are Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, and United Kingdom.
Here is the full law if anyone is interested in reading it. Please don't read it too quickly or you might come up with something totally different to what we are discussing on here!:)
http://europa.eu.int/comm/taxation_customs/taxation/ecommerce/vat_en.htm#Regulation
Edited by: Jim diGriz on 02/07/2003 15:05:45
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Archon Stormrage
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Posted - 2003.07.01 21:58:00 -
[2]
Takes the **** frankly.
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Jim diGriz
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Posted - 2003.07.01 21:59:00 -
[3]
It's great living in Europe, it won't be long before they tax us on visits to the toilet!
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Sabahl
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Posted - 2003.07.01 22:04:00 -
[4]
Why do you think it's called "Spending a penny" in the UK?
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Lyngs
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Posted - 2003.07.01 22:18:00 -
[5]
VAT on TP will just make more ppl subscrib to The Sun.
Nomads, Scandinavian corporation
To protect the sheep, you have to become the wolf?! |
Wrangler
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Posted - 2003.07.01 23:57:00 -
[6]
Sorry, but what is VAT?
[Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] |
agrizla
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Posted - 2003.07.02 00:01:00 -
[7]
Assuming you're a US citizen you'd call it sales tax.
VAT = Value Added Tax (ie here's a way of taxing you that after a while you won't notice and if we put it up you'll just blame the shops for increasing prices).
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Cymoril
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Posted - 2003.07.02 00:28:00 -
[8]
LOL!
VAT, what an oxymoron. How the hell is "value" added when you tax something? Unless value means something different in Europe than it does in the US, that has got to be one of the funniest terms I have heard in a very long time.
:)
Thanks for the good laugh! |
agrizla
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Posted - 2003.07.02 00:43:00 -
[9]
The name did actually make sense about 30 years ago as it was originally meant to apply to "luxury goods". Now however (in the UK anyway) it applies to everything apart from food, books and children's clothes. Heh - and don't even start me off on duty on alcohol, fuel and tobacco products :D
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Darksheer
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Posted - 2003.07.02 01:07:00 -
[10]
correct me if im wrong but isnt ccp located in iceland
if it is you wouldnt have to pay this tax due to the fact itsn ot in one of the mentioned locations the same way if i buy a subscription to say everquest i do not pay the additional california tax
simply put i live in canada and i am not subject to foreign taxes or VAT
least thats how it looks on my credit card bills
if im wrong oh well
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Carcharodon
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Posted - 2003.07.02 01:14:00 -
[11]
question?
does the EU have to have a TV License? or is that still just a UK thing? $140 bucks equivilent when i was there just to watch a boob tube lol
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Phyo
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Posted - 2003.07.02 01:15:00 -
[12]
Fuel eh.. now you got me started.
Main reason why americans are laughing bout these silly europeans driving around in these silly little cars, is cause they really have no idea bout VAT.
1 US Gallon = 3.79 liters
In the Netherlands, 1 liter unleaded regular goes for 1.10 euro.
So a US gallon would be 3.79 * 1.10 = 4,17 euro.
4,17 euro = ~ 4,50 usd.
Edited by: Phyo on 02/07/2003 01:18:00 |
Jin Roh
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Posted - 2003.07.02 02:07:00 -
[13]
Holy crap I will never ***** about my 7.75% sales tax again....wow.
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Jim diGriz
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Posted - 2003.07.02 06:58:00 -
[14]
RE: Darksheers message.
These changes require that digital services be taxed at the point of consumption.
It doesn't matter where the service is coming from, you will get taxed if you are in those above countries.
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Bambi
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Posted - 2003.07.02 07:21:00 -
[15]
At least the EU hasnt started taxing broadband, I read on some news site that the US are planning/have implimented a broadband tax.
As for petrol/gas prices, the US would NEVER dream of charging the same as the rest of the world for fuel as it may damage thier economy, even though it may stop people driving sick 5l engine cars, that do about 5 miles to the gallon.
I suppose they will grow up one day, probably be too late and the globe will be dead, but one day they may realise they cant do what they like where they like, and ignore the consiquences.
If God made us to be just like him, then God is dumb and maybe a little ugly on the side...[F.Z] |
Jim diGriz
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Posted - 2003.07.02 07:41:00 -
[16]
We do pay taxes on our broadband connections.
another 17.5% vat on any broadband connection in the uk.
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Bambi
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Posted - 2003.07.02 07:48:00 -
[17]
I am talking about a specific broadband tax, not a sales tax like VAT.
If God made us to be just like him, then God is dumb and maybe a little ugly on the side...[F.Z] |
Calladen Nimitz
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Posted - 2003.07.02 07:49:00 -
[18]
The VAT is a big RIP-off. Another great socialist tax plan to take money from people who earn it and redistribute it to everyone else.
I feel for you people in EU. Then again I'm sure the US isn't far behind.
Calladen Nimitz
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Bolka
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Posted - 2003.07.02 07:53:00 -
[19]
Yes, the EU has a TV license, which is used to finance the public TV. It is roughly the same price in every country, some are more expensive than UK.
Value added tax doesn't mean it's a tax that adds value... lol
It means it is a tax on the added value to a product.
For instance, I buy tritanium for 10isk, make a canon with it and sell the canon for 34isk.
I will pay the VAT on 24isk of added value.
That's the origin of the name.
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Jim diGriz
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Posted - 2003.07.02 07:53:00 -
[20]
I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of plan by the eurocrats to introduce a specific broadband tax, but if they did that, then they are stiffling an area that is growing at a steady rate.
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Bolka
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Posted - 2003.07.02 08:37:00 -
[21]
Yes, this sounds pretty typical, it's probably what will happen.
But at the moment governments are injecting money in broadband, rather than milk it.
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Jim diGriz
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Posted - 2003.07.02 08:55:00 -
[22]
Let's hope it stays that way.
Now all we need is CCP to send out an email to inform everyone of this new tax.
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Askari
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Posted - 2003.07.02 09:01:00 -
[23]
VAT on a subscription charge!!! WTF!
When did they sneak that little law through?
Im sending this link to Which?
This certainly was not made very public...
God damn, I pay 20 0dd percent income tax, 10% national insurance directly off my wages, and then another 17.5% on pretty much everything i ever buy.
They screw you with the credit cards,
They screw you with the mobile phones,
They screw you with the VAT,
They screw you with the petrol and cigarettes,
and now they are screwing me with my games.
B*st*rds.
Hell, in the UK, i even get taxed when i die!
Fantastic.
Bring back communism... thats what i say!!! ;p
----------------
~= Askari =~
Urza's Factory
http://www.mikeward.uk.com/urzas
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Sybylle
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Posted - 2003.07.02 09:16:00 -
[24]
Taking example for France...
1-We pay about 120Ç of TV/radio tax each year
2-VAT is applicated on everything, food includes (5.5%), except for restaurant where it goes to 20%
3-electronics (from shaver to computer) is 20%
4-cars is 20%
5-renting a flat will cost you 13 months of rent because one month is taxes
6-working : you will loose each month 20 to 25% of your salary because of taxes. Add to that the 1 month salary that goes to the state each year.
Take my example, with real numbers...
I earn almost 1250 Ç per month (deducted only the 20% of 6).
Each month, I have to take 1/12 of that 1250.
Say it's 1110Ç.
Remove 600Ç of flat for 80¦m in a not too bad place in Lyon (not talking of Paris, where price goes x2 or more for the same thing).
Remain 510Ç. Remove almost 45Ç for point 5 yearly tax.
465Ç. I have to pay the 40Ç to my isp for a 512 line. I have to eat. Pay Eve. Pay electricity and water companies (30/40Ç per month).
So yes, we pay alot in Europe.
We pay (supposedly) for our retirement (invluded in the 20% took of your salary), and to receive 100% of that you have to work 42 years.
The worst is that it will never equal more than 60% of what you paid.
A lot of people are *****ing about the whole situation, but you know, french are always *****ing and do nothing :(
Last protestation are about a reform of retirement for state employes (teachers, train company...). They complain because they do not want to loose their advantages...They pay less than private employes for retirement and earn longer and more, work less, have less risks about loosing their job, have more advantages (train reductions, house, car...).
For instance (U can laught) :
People from SNCF (train company) receive a fee for characoal...that is tax free... This is the situation...
And if in France their are so much breaks in working is because most of state employes "won" the right not to work to protest of smtg AND be paid during that...Funny, isn't it? :/
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)=Oveur (proof)
"Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period" |
Xane
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Posted - 2003.07.02 09:33:00 -
[25]
I think a small amount of clarification is needed.
The EU rules means that companies outside the euro-zone must register and charge VAT on goods and services sold within the euro-zone.
This does not necessarily mean subscription fees will rise, only if CCP decide to pass the charges on to their customers, as eBay and AOL have chosen to do.
VAT is not necessarily 17.5%, companies can register in a european country with a low VAT rate (such as Luxembourg) and use that one, once you are charging from within the euro-zone (and paying the host country VAT on it), the rules no longer apply.
Sometimes protests again VAT can go too far
x a n e |
FlareZFX
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Posted - 2003.07.02 09:49:00 -
[26]
People are raving about taxing, but you're looking at just the one side of the coin. Do you get free healthcare in US? We do in Europe, at least where I live at. How about education, all the way through university? Yep, that too is free here for anyone who has the dedication to study.
Just healthcare and free education are something I'm more than happy to pay taxes for. I'm currently on my 6th year in a local university, and if I had to pay for attending it directly, I probably never would have gone there.
This system tries to grant equal opportunities for everyone, regardless of where you come from or how much money your parents can invest in your education. Good points to keep in mind when complaining about taxing :)
Edited by: FlareZFX on 02/07/2003 09:50:27
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Shakaa Dre
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Posted - 2003.07.02 10:01:00 -
[27]
Huh some peeps need some huge economics lessons :/
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Merell
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Posted - 2003.07.02 10:04:00 -
[28]
Ok, there should have been VAT on the monthly charge from CCP to begin with. Maybe there has been from the beginning.
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Sybylle
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Posted - 2003.07.02 10:07:00 -
[29]
@FlareZFX
When you'll work you 'll understand my point.
The problem isn't paying tax. The problem is WHO pays and HOW MUCH in % to its salary.
You get free education, yes. But do you think tha you'll get some job with 6 years in university in your country?
Almost all my friends from university stoped before the no return point...
To clarify :
In France, the more you graduate, the more an employer will have to pay you.
If you spend time in learning @ school, you do not get the experience of the work.
An employer will always look at the cheapest peoples and more experienced ones, not the more graduated. So free school is good until university. After, education is BS...Not that you do not learn nothing, but nobody wants to pay more for somebody with no experience.
To find a work in France, you have to :
-be under 25 years
-have done 2 years in a university (no more, no less) VALIDATED
-have experience.
The most "funny" thing is that I earn 1250Ç per month (i started working at 18) and my friend that is graduated in biology (6 years if i remember well) earns 800Ç... I've been in university but never graduated in nothing...
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)=Oveur (proof)
"Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period" |
FlareZFX
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Posted - 2003.07.02 10:24:00 -
[30]
"You get free education, yes. But do you think tha you'll get some job with 6 years in university in your country?"
Yes, I've been asked for work for several companies already, and I have done work for them among my studies. I still do, on a freelance basis. I was also asked to work for 3 years for an IT company in Silicon Valley this spring, but I declined the offer because that would have required a move from Finland to the Us, and I really don't like living in US based on my first 1-year stay there.
The problem we have in department is that people don't get to finish their studies, because businesses operating in the same area recruit all the time. The normal deal is that you get a full position before writing your pro gradu thesis, and you can work on it half your regular working hours, but still being paid for full hours. There's a Nokia Dev center about 100m from the University, and they for example do recruiting among us weekly.
I do understand what you mean though, from some areas it's definitely more difficult to get jobs.
Edited by: FlareZFX on 02/07/2003 10:26:05
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Perdita X
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Posted - 2003.07.02 10:34:00 -
[31]
Pfff, we have 40% income tax and 24.5% VAT on everything (14.4% on some foods though) here in Iceland...and I didn't even get a free T-shirt! Talk about a rip-off.
------
.sig? I don't need no steenking .sig! |
Jim diGriz
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Posted - 2003.07.02 10:40:00 -
[32]
Xane: (I wish there was a quote option on this board!)
I totally understand what you are saying, I would like to hear what CCP have to say about it, I seriously doubt CCP are going to absorb the VAT costs. Funcom and Sony Online Entertainment are not absorbing the costs so I can't see CCP doing it.
It will only be a small-ish increase anyway.
Instead of $12.95, we'll pay $15.21. Not that much but it might push a lot of users away from the game.
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wamingo
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Posted - 2003.07.02 14:01:00 -
[33]
I don't think this tax is gonna stay for long... Imagine what any inet based company outside europe like in the US would have to go through just to apply for a few european customers? It's gonna get a lot of people upset.
Small companies will likely BAN europeans just to save them selves the trouble...
not to mention everything is gonna be a whole lot more expensive...
These tax mazes are bad enough as they are...
I mean comeon, we need double-tax-treaties between countries just to avoid being taxed twice for income from another country! It's ridiculous!
Theoretically though, while I live in denmark and pay through a credit card, couldn't I just have signed up to eve-online as living in Siberia to avoid this?
Maybe I'm missing something, and please do enlighten me if so, but If I got a foreign based credit card, and type me up as not living in the EU how exactly are they going to tax me 17.5% on this game? I can understand "domestic" (inside the EU) services who only sells to europeans and those services that requires a home-address like resellers, ebay, amazon, but foreign companies that does not? How on earth are they going to police this? And besides, if I get a friend from outside the EU to just send me the box I may have saved those 17.5% easily.
As much as I stand by the EU I think this is a bummer... and it has got to go...
-- I won't not promise to avoid refraining from harming you! .... What? |
Jim diGriz
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Posted - 2003.07.02 14:09:00 -
[34]
Wam,
Some how I doubt you'd get a credit card for a country you don't live in, if you tried to say you lived there, the CC company will check and see that you don't.
Majority of credit cards require them to be registered at where you live and not some holiday home in spain!
The tax won't go away. we'll have to grin and bear it. Anyone who loves in california has to pay a sales tax on anything bought over the internet and I'm sure there are a few other states that do it as well.
Hopefully Pann or someone from CCP will make an annoucement about it, cos if they don't, there are going to be a few upset people when it comes to billing day and they see their credit card has been billed for $15 and not $12!
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Muaddid
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Posted - 2003.07.02 14:18:00 -
[35]
20-25% tax on income ? more like 40% here [canada/quebec] and we have 15.025% on everything but food.. althrought we get free school (except university) and free healthcare... in US you dont have free healthcare but you dont pay as much tax... good for rich ppl bad for poor... its just a choice of society
On vacations (need a new sig too) |
Pann
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Posted - 2003.07.02 14:28:00 -
[36]
I have sent in an e-mail to our CEO to find out how this will affect our players' accounts. As soon as I have an answer, I'll post it here.
P.S. to Tristan: I've removed your posts because I can't edit out your little graphic. Please take that pic out of your sig if you wish your posts to remain on the forum.
Eve Community Manager
[email protected]
CCP |
wamingo
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Posted - 2003.07.02 14:56:00 -
[37]
You may be right about that Jim, I don't know too much about credit cards afterall... I only got mine to play eve online! :)
I'm sure though there some way to get around it though... You are still pretty annonymous on the internet afterall.
And you can always make someone living outside the EU pay for you... in fact it could make a good business for that someone, like charge 2% instead of 17.5 and you're set? :)
-- I won't not promise to avoid refraining from harming you! .... What? |
Terrapin
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Posted - 2003.07.02 15:18:00 -
[38]
AFAIK since CCP is a company based in the EU (Iceland), they are not going to be affected by this new law. It only applies to non-EU digital service providers who operate in the EU (like Sony, amazon, AOL etc.).
More details here:
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=internetNews&storyID=2899393
---
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Cezanne
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Posted - 2003.07.02 15:21:00 -
[39]
Here in the UK there are a clear majority of people in favour of lower taxes; There are also a clear majority of people in favour of increased government spending on public services.
Which only goes to reinforce my opinion that a clear majority of people are unable to do basic mathematics.
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Jim diGriz
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Posted - 2003.07.02 15:30:00 -
[40]
Terrapin,
According to the EU website, these are the member states, Iceland is not part of the EU.
Belgium,Denmark,Germany,Greece
Spain,France,Ireland,Italy,Luxembourg
The Netherlands,Austria,Portugal
Finland,Sweden,United Kingdom
And these are the candidate countries.
Bulgaria,Czech Republic,Estonia,Cyprus,Latvia
Lithuania,Hungary,Malta,Poland,Romania,Slovenia,Slovakia,Turkey.
It looks like we're going to have to pay this tax anyway. :)
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annoing
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Posted - 2003.07.02 15:39:00 -
[41]
A NOTICE TO ALL PEEPS WHO HAVE ALREADY PAID 6 MONTHS SUBSCRIPTION::::
It really shouldnt affect those of us who have pre-paid 6 months subscription. If CCP try to take another 17.5% off you before you are next due to pay your subscription they are comminting theft. When VAT is added to any product it is not retrospective...it means they cannot charge you for a product/service they have already sold you. Just be prepared to pay it when your subscription is next due..thats december for me...and i WONT be playing this then. No doubt another game will have captured my imagination. |
Terrapin
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Posted - 2003.07.02 15:43:00 -
[42]
Jim,
Technically you are correct, Iceland is not a full member.
They did however sign the EEA agreement (european economic area agreement), so I assume they have to follow the same legislation as all other EU countries on this issue (since the EEA only makes exceptions in the areas of aggriculture and fishery).
But then again, I might be wrong..
---
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Jim diGriz
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Posted - 2003.07.02 15:45:00 -
[43]
annoing,
I doubt CCP would do that if they had to this action. Your payment was before this law became legal and as such your payment should be the same price.
Cheers
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Cymoril
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Posted - 2003.07.02 15:47:00 -
[44]
 Quote:
Value added tax doesn't mean it's a tax that adds value... lol
It means it is a tax on the added value to a product.
For instance, I buy tritanium for 10isk, make a canon with it and sell the canon for 34isk.
I will pay the VAT on 24isk of added value.
That's the origin of the name.
Oh god, you guys are killing me this is so funny. What you just described is an increase in the price of the product, not the value. Value is a completely personal and subjective assesment of the relative worth of an item. Each and every person on the planet has a different "value" for everything.
For example, in this country, there are little old ladies who like to buy little trinkets to decorate their houses with. These items don't do anything, they just sit there. To these old ladies, they are quite valuable. To me, they are garbage. The old ladies see their value to be in excess of their cost, and they buy them. I see their value to be (far) less than their cost, and I don't.
Now if it were called 'cost added tax', I wouldn't find that so humorous at all. But value is a completely subjective attibute, and that is why this term, that is clearly designed to sound as politically correct as possible, is so funny to me. |
Jim diGriz
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Posted - 2003.07.02 15:53:00 -
[45]
Terrapin,
It's all very confusing, i've just tried to read the official documents again and all it mentions is the member states, nothing about the EEA.
And I'm not going to sit there and read all of the documents to find it either, I'll let CCP's financial peeps sort that out :)
I did my bit and that was to make CCP aware of it.
Edited by: Jim diGriz on 03/07/2003 09:42:34
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Blackwood
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Posted - 2003.07.02 15:59:00 -
[46]
Those frickin bastards! Another EU scam, the sooner the UK withdraws from that pestilential organisation the better.
I see my local council has added an EU flag to the town flagpole, I think I'll burn it tonight as a protest.
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Blackwood
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Posted - 2003.07.02 16:03:00 -
[47]
Cymoril: Value is exactly what it is.
Value is only subjective insofar as it describes the price you are willing to pay for the object.
If you buy something then you agree with its assigned value, therefore you pay 17.5% tax on it (assuming you are unfortunate enough to live in the EU, or EUSSR as it is rapidly becoming).
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Xane
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Posted - 2003.07.02 16:15:00 -
[48]
The onus is on a non-EU based company to pay the VAT, it is up to them to decide if it gets passed on to the customer.
Many countries have this anyway, I don't know about Iceland but it may be the case CCP already pay (and charge) tax on the subscription, the only change will be the tax will be EU rather than Iceland.
This is not a "scam", a lot of non-EU based companies have been exploiting the market for years and getting away without paying VAT on goods and services in the EU, they have been unfairly using this to undercut EU companies, and don't think that these companies have been letting you have stuff "tax free", I rather suspect they've been pocketing most of the difference whilst maintaining a competitive advantage.
x a n e |
Cymoril
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Posted - 2003.07.02 16:22:00 -
[49]
Quote:
Value is only subjective insofar as it describes the price you are willing to pay for the object.
And therefore, is subjective.
Edited by: Cymoril on 02/07/2003 16:23:24 |
Silmaril
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Posted - 2003.07.02 16:38:00 -
[50]
Cymoril, if it was called cost added tax, that would be even more stupid, as to say "cost" implies - at least in the UK -, the amount of money required to make or supply the damn product ie buying at cost, not how much it is sold to the public for - which exactly what VAT is not.
It is tax added to the VAaue assigned to the product at retail.
"Do not waste your tears. I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men." |
Sybylle
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Posted - 2003.07.02 16:40:00 -
[51]
@Cymoril :
VAT is the historical name for this tax.
It was intended to be used for paying the additionnal work done on objects.
Additional work means for some countries :
-put a sticker on your cig telling you "smoke is bad"
-allowing outside products to come in the country
...
In the beginning, the name was appropriate as value was intended as "money spent additionnally on the final product to deliver it to customer".
Now you just have to think at something like "hard work on thinking if yes or not we will allow this product to get here"...Answer is always yes, as long as it's taxed :/
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)=Oveur (proof)
"Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period" |
wamingo
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Posted - 2003.07.02 16:43:00 -
[52]
cymoril, it's just another definition of the word. Value can both a constant and a personal assessment.
For instance those trinkets you mention are just as valuable in gold to you and the old ladies, but has no utility value to you.
ok?
-- I won't not promise to avoid refraining from harming you! .... What? |
Cymoril
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Posted - 2003.07.02 17:42:00 -
[53]
I'm sorry if you guys can't see the humor in the name. It really is nothing to get all worked up about. I think the name is funny, and you don't. Different people (especially people from different countries) find different things funny.
<shrug>
Why go on and on about it?
In my country, the term value is definately subjective, whereas cost and price pretty much mean the same thing. |
Telon
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Posted - 2003.07.02 19:45:00 -
[54]
I live in the US and I think the VAT is stupid. I mean I could see a small tax like a 5%-maybe 10% at most... but a 17.5% is just way to much for anything.
So is it a 17.5% or 15%? I read somewhere last night it was just 15%, but been reading since yesterday morning it was the 17.5% deal. :(
--
Telon |
ShadowStrike
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Posted - 2003.07.02 20:46:00 -
[55]
Ok... were in the hell do all these taxes that Europeans are paying go? Its not on defense spending... the US gets that pleasure. So what in the hell are your governments doing? Do they pay for your medical care? Are prices reduced? What? Or are they pocketing it all?
Well I can't say Europe hasn't always been known for horrible taxing of its populous... damn greedy governments... Well if you don't like taxes, complain to the government. If they ignore you, move over here to the US.
Edited by: ShadowStrike on 02/07/2003 20:47:56
You currently have 157 skills and 26,183,909 Brain cells |
Jim diGriz
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Posted - 2003.07.02 22:04:00 -
[56]
The taxes go to the respective country.
So if you are playing EVE in the UK, the tax will go to the UK government, France, Germany, etc etc. I think you get the picture.
As far as I know the 17.5% tax is across the board for the member states in Europe.
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