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Stuart Price
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Posted - 2005.02.15 15:29:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Stuart Price on 15/02/2005 15:30:52
I've been flying around in t2 frigs for quite a while now, and in all honesty, nothing fills me with more fear than the thought of an opponent with nosferatu's fitted. They're simply the most effective way of stopping frigates as they always hit, and have enough range to stop tackling (especially the heavy nos with 21km).
So, seeing as CCP are slowly balancing the ubermods to a more level playing field (something I'm all for, 10mn ab's on inties were WAY overpowered for example), I thought I'd share an idea I had the other day for making nosferatu mods work as I suspect they were intended to.
Basically, I'd give them a sig radius, like guns. No other new stats, just that. And the difference between the sig radius of the nos and that of the target gives the multiplier to the amount of energy drained. Basically, smaller targets suffer less drain than bigger ones from a larger nos. Of course, this can't enable a smaller nos to drain more than it's maximum.
Look at it this way, the smaller a target, the harder it is for the nos to track and drain it. Now, this still means you can cripple frigs with a nos, it just takes longer.
In my opinion, this would work better with the proposed EW changes. As has been discussed there, tacklers will no longer be uber bs-holding machines solo, so the fact that it will take longer to drain them is not so bad. And in any case, using a MWD increases sig radius, so they can either have power and fly faster than missiles, or risk getting hit with missiles and have enough power.
Missile changes will then factor in to that as well. Hmmm, the long term actually looks quite rosy from where I am.
Please let me know if I've utterly fubared this up, but no random flaming please :p
"I got soul but I'm not a soldier" |
Hanns
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Posted - 2005.02.15 15:38:00 -
[2]
I agree heavy nos shouldnt work on frigs and stuff, they are way to harsh.
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Sorja
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Posted - 2005.02.15 15:44:00 -
[3]
Nerf the nosferatu, nerf the cruises, give elite frigates insane resistances/speed and absurd firepower (oh wait, already done) and wonder why EVE is T2 frig + BS only.
LOL that's too funny 
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Muad 'dib
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Posted - 2005.02.15 16:06:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Muad 'dib on 15/02/2005 16:06:12
CCP should prolly include nos into the EW changes, as it will change the way instant 100% hit rate modules work, by adding the chance to miss occassionally, and have optinal/falloff ranges. Tho as nos is not really EW, they may slip through the nerf net.
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'/\' The Wild West Made Me Quicker On The DRAW Than You |
JD's
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Posted - 2005.02.15 16:11:00 -
[5]
Edited by: JD's on 15/02/2005 16:13:06
interceptors need a nerf to damage, i mean i like my interceptor as much as the next guy but they arnt supposed to be uber pwn all ships with insane damages and so quick they cant get hurt at all by anything except nossies or a webby.
Instead make the interceptor bonus increase propulsion jamming range and remove the high damage abilitys of them and replace with a range bonus.
eg for crow have 25% kinetic damage, 25% missile velecity for caldari frig 5.
Then add a 5%/level increase in scrambling range with the inty skill as well as the sig radius thing (allthough that bonus is useless unless you fit a ab, which are useless since the propulsion nerf.)
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Lallante
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Posted - 2005.02.15 16:17:00 -
[6]
The threat of Nos on Frigs is currently the only reason to ever use BCs or Cruisers, so lets remove it!
Lall - THE Vocal Minority -
ShinRa
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Rex Martell
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Posted - 2005.02.15 16:28:00 -
[7]
I suppose web's shouldn't be able to auto target frigates either.
"The object of war is not to die for your corp, but to make the other b@##@#d die for his" |
Basileus
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Posted - 2005.02.15 16:57:00 -
[8]
We apologise again for the fault in the nerfing. Those responsible for nerfing the people who have just been nerfed have been nerfed. 
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Alowishus
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Posted - 2005.02.15 17:03:00 -
[9]
NERF EVERYTHING! Maybe we can turn this into a mining sim afterall.
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
3GG H34D
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Posted - 2005.02.15 17:07:00 -
[10]
Nerfing is unballenced!!
/me nerfs himself
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Think u know 1337?, you dont know nuffink!
Û_±ý+´Åõk*Áu/°÷_¸Ã=5ò@Q@Q@M_?ZåñIîbåÈT~p¶4y+ðÊ% £= p¶4ÀiÔmZã!À©ì¦:BãÌ6xi Ö |
Torvus Jay
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Posted - 2005.02.15 17:12:00 -
[11]
let just play multiplayer dice. High roll wins! BTW if you fly frigates alot and cant handle heavy nos seek a new profession.
______________
Aim careful, and look the devil in the eye. |
Face Lifter
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Posted - 2005.02.15 17:52:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Face Lifter on 15/02/2005 17:54:41
I think a better idea to counter Nos would be to introduce a defensive module against energy drainers.
If your opponent spends a slot and lots of pg equipping a Nos, then you also should have to spend a slot if you want to defend against it.
Make some easily fitable module like "capacitor insulator", that reduces energy drain by X%. To be fair, make both low slot and med slot variations. Also to be fair, make it so the effectiveness of such protection module is inversely proportional to size of the capacitor - the bigger the capacitor, that harder to insulate it all.
And then introruce frig sized, cruiser sized, and bs sized capacitor insulators. A frig sized one for a frig should cut cap drain by about 95% (almost perfect since even a tiny cap drain is bad on a frig). Then cruiser sized cap insulator fitted on cruiser would be about 80% effective, and bs sized one about 65%
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seanb29
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Posted - 2005.02.15 18:06:00 -
[13]
rofl seems to me some peeps want the nos nerf so they little friggy can wtfpwn a battleship lol if u tired of losing your frig to a battleship then get something bigger cause atm the nos is the one thing we battleship pilots have to help us hit you little fast moving frig
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Mr KaY
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Posted - 2005.02.15 18:14:00 -
[14]
 Originally by: seanb29
atm the nos is the one thing we battleship pilots have to help us hit you little fast moving frig
apart from smartbombs drones and missles....
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Bazman
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Posted - 2005.02.15 18:43:00 -
[15]
half the reason the game play is whacked is because ccp listens to half of these nerf requests, if your tackling a battleship with a heavy nos, get out of range or warp out and back in, and have your other friendly frigs keep the tackles on until you come back (oh wait, you want to tackle a BS solo, nurf!)
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Incub
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Posted - 2005.02.15 18:48:00 -
[16]
ok, i understand where this is coming from, but its not the NOS that's the problem, it missiles combined with nos. keep the nos as it is and lets wait what the missile revamp brings, m'kay?
250's are definitely more versatile, but All the cool kids are using 280's. |
KompleX
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Posted - 2005.02.15 18:51:00 -
[17]
Why is "right" to render Battleships defenseless against frigates? You want missiles nerfed, because they hit cruisers and frigs easily. (No objections against that though) You don't want drones to hit them, the same with SB's, and now Nosferateus? They should have some defense against frigs imo...
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2005.02.15 18:53:00 -
[18]
eh? sorry to say but... you are actually saying to nerf one of the few (3?) defences that BS'es have against smaller ships? Hmm... sorry but no? Nosferatus are working fine imho.
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Quote:
Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
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Altai Saker
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Posted - 2005.02.15 19:48:00 -
[19]
Nos are totally slanted towards battleship...
The fact that 1 highslot module with a 20+km range can instantly disable a frigate is *******s...
you want to be able to hurt interceptors in your bs? They're called light/medium drones... and they work wonders... right now all it takes to kill a ceptor is one nos + two missiles up the ass and there goes 15m... FUN
Nosses make it nearly impossible for frigates to tackler battleships that arent jammed... and at the moment you are foolish if you don't have atleast one fitted :(
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Hellspawn666
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Posted - 2005.02.15 21:17:00 -
[20]
Heavy nos are already balanced... they do not stop a frigate killing you they just kill ure cap u can still run a warp scram if u have good skills and the bs only has 1... Any bs who has to fit them will know that the fitting requirements are nto effected by weapons upgrades skill making them quite harsh to fit 2000pg over 50 cpu... They are a good anti frigate weapon but any ship going anti frigate should be good at it i think they are perfectly balanced already. If anything i would liek to see them included in a ship bonus say on teh typhoon.
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Crusher166
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Posted - 2005.02.15 21:26:00 -
[21]
Agreed with hellspawn compleatly on this.
Just because you lost ur t2 frig doesnt mean the module that caused you to die should be nerfed. Fly a t1 frig - much more cost effective and does the same job.
Crusher - Sybrite Inc. |
Cinnander
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Posted - 2005.02.15 21:49:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Cinnander on 15/02/2005 21:49:31
While it may or may not be a good idea to insert a "hit/miss/maybe" element to everything, IMHO if anything, some nosses needs a boost 'damage wise'
For example -
Tech 1 medium nos .. 30 energy, 6 seconds
Tech 2 meduim nos .. 36 energy, 6 seconds ... more fitting requirements a WHOLE 1 MORE DRAIN PER SECOND *AND* it's harder to fit.
Whereas:
E50 Energy Prototype .. 35 energy/6secs, easier to fit (than tech 1 even) |
Bleakheart
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Posted - 2005.02.15 22:06:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Incub
ok, i understand where this is coming from, but its not the NOS that's the problem, it missiles combined with nos. keep the nos as it is and lets wait what the missile revamp brings, m'kay?
Yes, let us not forget that your little ships weren't actually supposed to be destroyed or crippled every time a man-sized slug of matter was shot through it at high speeds... No! They're not supposed ot be destroyed or crippled when a Volkswagen Bus sized object gets shot into it either! :P
Really, Jason's of Eve, you need to find a different Goliath if you're gonna cry so hard every time it don't go for you like the biblical story went...
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Sally
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Posted - 2005.02.15 22:48:00 -
[24]
Lala. Neeeerrrfff frigate ECM and scramblers! They shouldnt be able to affect battleships! They difference in power and sensors size is so huge what no frigs ever should scrambler or ECM battleship!
And THEN we can think about changing nos and missiles lol.
--
Stories: #1
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Mikelangelo
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Posted - 2005.02.15 23:59:00 -
[25]
Heavy nosferatu's already have pretty high fitting requirements. Often it's a choice between fitting an nos or one of your favorite weapons.
Lets not forget that frigates can mount nosferatu's ALSO, and they don't need any tracking to hit either (look at it from an alternative point of view).
Also, just because you get hit by a nosferatu doesn't mean you are dead in the water. Frigates CAN mount micro cap boosters, so if you time it right, hit the cap booster, you can get away and come back in a bit.
It's all in how you fit, the Mighty Nerfbat of TomB is not responsible for your lack of brainpower.
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Ankanos
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Posted - 2005.02.16 00:02:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Ankanos on 16/02/2005 00:05:49
Viva La Nerf!
oi vay..
now.. if you have to make the nos's more balanced, why nerf
when you can BOOST!
how bout raising the base cap and cap recharge on frigs to
compensate instead?? 
or how bout just leaving everything alone..
..because it all works just FINE.
-just get the bugs out.
un-nerf your brain and use tactics.
-ank
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JoeSomebody
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Posted - 2005.02.16 00:09:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Sorja
Nerf the nosferatu, nerf the cruises, give elite frigates insane resistances/speed and absurd firepower (oh wait, already done) and wonder why EVE is T2 frig + BS only.
LOL that's too funny
signed.
____
When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |
Bleakheart
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Posted - 2005.02.16 02:38:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Sally
Lala. Neeeerrrfff frigate ECM and scramblers! They shouldnt be able to affect battleships! They difference in power and sensors size is so huge what no frigs ever should scrambler or ECM battleship!
And THEN we can think about changing nos and missiles lol.
Personally I think they should have made scramblers and webbers the same way as MWD's and AB's, rated by size. I mean really. If you've gotta have 150,000,000 N in THRUST to speed these hulks up, you should need at least that in DRAG to bring them to a halt.
Similarly, the warp core's on battleships aren't bigger than a frigate's? Do they retain the same size and instability from pods on up or something? Or is that it? The whole kit and kaboodle is some kinda thingamabob on the pod, running the entire show? Someone 'splain this to me.
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Mr Wales
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Posted - 2005.02.16 03:15:00 -
[29]
CCP have a tough job balancing ships. How do you define balance outside of a size class? should 2 intys be able to take down a battleship? how about 6? should a single inty be able to tackle a battleship?
IMO Nosferatu's are fine. It just takes experience learning how to fly against them. I've been hit by heavy nos many a times in my crow and I usually survive. It's the difference between being a big head and sticking around or getting the f out of there. Battleships still need there defenses. You complain about loosing a 15m inty to a battleship. How about loosing a 200m battleship to 3-4 15m intys.
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Stuart Price
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Posted - 2005.02.16 03:31:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Stuart Price on 16/02/2005 03:32:24
Hmmm, I may not have made myself 100% clear. I'm not trying to make frigs uber again, I know all too well the pain it can be to kill tacklers in a bs. My suggestion was always intended to be implemented alongside EW and missile changes, to nerf nos without changing EW or missiles would make frigs too powerful I agree.
However, under the proposed EW 'revision' there is no guarantee that you'll be able to tackle a ship with a frig the way you can now. The real problem is the cost of the inty doing the tackling. If you know you have a random chance of tackling effectively, are you really going to run the risk of being stopped by a 100% always hit, always effective countermeasure? I think not, and mamy others think along similar lines if the 'OMG FRIGS WILL SUCK CCP ARE REDUCING PVP TO BS BLOBS' posts are anything to go by.
All I'm trying to do is bring the countermeasure in line with the offensive measure it's intended to work against.
It all depends how they 'reimagine' missiles I suppose. As it stands, a nos and cruise equipped Raven pwns every frig, every time, there's no way to stop it. If missiles were changed so that they didn't instakill your ship when you get hit then no, there is no need to change the way nos works. If they do, then no-one's gonna risk instaganking in order to have a 'chance' to tackle, the way the proposed EW changes will make it. And as I said in my original post, a tackler using a MWD to avoid missiles would have a larger sig radius, so the nos would cripple it's MWD pretty quick anyhow.
I'm just trying to find a way to encourage mixed fleets and a more mobile style of warfare. I'd rather not everything degenerate into a giant bs lagfest.
tbh, the way I see it, bs's should have trouble killing frigs quickly. They should be able to largely ignore them in terms of damage etc, but the proper countermeasure to frigs should, imho, be other frigs and cruisers.
I welcome the inevitable missile changes are pray they bring some real balance to fleet combat (And this from a dedicated Raven pilot), but I'm also willing to explore other avenues. Another possibel solution would be to make t2 frigs as cheap as they were intended to be (if the insurance values are anything to go by), but that's one's out of any one persons hands unless they introduce a complicated 'dynamic insurance' system that calculates insurance by the average price of the ship rather than its component value.
True, I may well have got this one wrong and I'll accept that. I'd rather things were BOOSTED to get things in line as I always hated SWG for it's constant use of the nerfbat.
And Sally, the original suggestion was made in light of the recent dev blog regarding EW changes, so it's more of a response to the fact that frigs ARE going to be less effective at tackling bigger ships :p
"I got soul but I'm not a soldier" |
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