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Shin Ra
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Posted - 2005.02.17 05:16:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Shin Ra on 17/02/2005 05:17:32
Edited by: Shin Ra on 17/02/2005 05:16:47
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=152360
Just tying to find out the general pirate/merc opinion towards the ew changes.
Burn Eden is 100% against these changes, particularly the short ranges of sensor dampners. Since we rely heavily on this tactic to fight outnumbered, its going to cripple us. My personal opinion is that it is a further attempt to make piracy more difficult and force us to blob fight.
I was interested to see what other pirate and merc corps think of the new changes. I am not interested in anyones opinion of Burn Eden or any other pirate/merc corp nor am I interested in anything anyone has to say about how "insert random bad word" our tactics are. Simple post how these changes will effect your corp and in what way.
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Heinky> Dont mix eve with rl it can be bad for your health |
Dianabolic
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Posted - 2005.02.17 05:41:00 -
[2]
If I understand them right I like all of them.
Scramblers that have a chance of workign outside of 7.5km? Gets my vote.
ECM that doesn't work all of the time? Gets my vote.
Dampers that are nerfed? They've been overpowered for too long, gets my vote.
What else is there?
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Shin Ra
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Posted - 2005.02.17 05:44:00 -
[3]
How do you feel about dampners/jammers that have less range than gankageddons?
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Heinky> Dont mix eve with rl it can be bad for your health |
xOm3gAx
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Posted - 2005.02.17 05:48:00 -
[4]
i gotta say i do both agree and disagree with the changes im more opposed to them then with them though mostly because i dont like blob fights and i dont like there being a chance i cant jam the 700+ dmg/second gankageddon blasting away at me.
-----------------
*Decloaks and starts blasting your sig* Applesauce Biotch
~~~My Banner got nerfed~~~
But I still love the mods anyway
Succumb to your nightmares
Darkness shall embrace you |
RollinDutchMasters
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Posted - 2005.02.17 05:51:00 -
[5]
I absolutely love what theyre doing to dampners.
The onlw EW change that is concerning me is the webber. One, because -50% means that a webbed interceptor will go faster then most unwebbed frigates, and two because I dont like luck for that module. I feel its going to decrease the skill required for frigate fights in favor of luck, especially for missile ships.
 Originally by: Sochin
CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2005.02.17 06:08:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Shin Ra
How do you feel about dampners/jammers that have less range than gankageddons?
Well, megapulse on a geddon are overpowered atm anyway, so they need fixing.
However, it will basically mean that people will have to use ECM over dampers (which is how it should be).
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Price Gouger
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Posted - 2005.02.17 06:41:00 -
[7]
You always know that a Burn Eden member is gonna make a post about one of two things, nerfs on ECM (which is all they use on the mid slots of their Ravens) or a nerf on warp scrambling and warp core stabs (Which is all they use on the low slots of their Ravens) They are in my opinion highly pathetic setups, but also highly effective setups (I hate admitting this). They almost only fight at 60-120km range, which is also annoying but fits the purpose of their setups.
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Jakk Graiseach
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Posted - 2005.02.17 06:42:00 -
[8]
I'll reserve judgement on the changes until they've been on test for a while and been tweaked.
They did say it'll change before it hits live. *shrugs*
Anyone who's really concerned about it should be on the Test server trying to break the changes, imo. 
--
** All accounts cancelled - have fun guys ** |
Shin Ra
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Posted - 2005.02.17 07:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Price Gouger
You always know that a Burn Eden member is gonna make a post about one of two things, nerfs on ECM (which is all they use on the mid slots of their Ravens) or a nerf on warp scrambling and warp core stabs (Which is all they use on the low slots of their Ravens) They are in my opinion highly pathetic setups, but also highly effective setups (I hate admitting this). They almost only fight at 60-120km range, which is also annoying but fits the purpose of their setups.
Hmm, 4 posts before the smack begins. Ofcourse we are going to post about this, it effects us more than most people. Just leave the smcaktalk out of this thread plz, its far more pathetic than our setups, which everyone either hates or loves.
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Heinky> Dont mix eve with rl it can be bad for your health |
Shamad Conde
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Posted - 2005.02.17 07:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Shin Ra
Edited by: Shin Ra on 17/02/2005 05:17:32
Edited by: Shin Ra on 17/02/2005 05:16:47
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=152360
Just tying to find out the general pirate/merc opinion towards the ew changes.
Burn Eden is 100% against these changes, particularly the short ranges of sensor dampners. Since we rely heavily on this tactic to fight outnumbered, its going to cripple us. My personal opinion is that it is a further attempt to make piracy more difficult and force us to blob fight.
I was interested to see what other pirate and merc corps think of the new changes. I am not interested in anyones opinion of Burn Eden or any other pirate/merc corp nor am I interested in anything anyone has to say about how "insert random bad word" our tactics are. Simple post how these changes will effect your corp and in what way.
Which part of the Some of these modules have been decreased in efficiency mostly because there will be skills to increase them to same or similar level to what's currently on Tranquility. did BURN EDEN not get?
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Kickass
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Posted - 2005.02.17 07:56:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dianabolic
If I understand them right I like all of them.
Scramblers that have a chance of workign outside of 7.5km? Gets my vote.
ECM that doesn't work all of the time? Gets my vote.
Dampers that are nerfed? They've been overpowered for too long, gets my vote.
What else is there?
Shin Ra failed to mention that the range is not nerfed it is desimated. Max ECM range Damps/Multi's/etc.. Will be 45k on most ships. And if you decide to jump into a Scorp it will be just under 80k.
Sounds like a great way to fit out against a geddon/apoc/Tempest hitting you from 150-200km away.
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Clipped Wings
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Posted - 2005.02.17 08:12:00 -
[12]
Personally, I'll wait until the changes:
A: make it to the test server so we can find out how it pans out, and
B: Make it to TQ, so we can see how it's implemented, before claiming it to be bad changes.
And yes, I use EW, but personally, I have found sensor dampeners to be unbalanced for a long time anyway.
-Clipped Wings of LFC
"I believe in the theoretical benevolence, and practical malignity of man."
~William Hazlitt
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Shin Ra
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Posted - 2005.02.17 08:36:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Shamad Conde
Originally by: Shin Ra
Edited by: Shin Ra on 17/02/2005 05:17:32
Edited by: Shin Ra on 17/02/2005 05:16:47
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=152360
Just tying to find out the general pirate/merc opinion towards the ew changes.
Burn Eden is 100% against these changes, particularly the short ranges of sensor dampners. Since we rely heavily on this tactic to fight outnumbered, its going to cripple us. My personal opinion is that it is a further attempt to make piracy more difficult and force us to blob fight.
I was interested to see what other pirate and merc corps think of the new changes. I am not interested in anyones opinion of Burn Eden or any other pirate/merc corp nor am I interested in anything anyone has to say about how "insert random bad word" our tactics are. Simple post how these changes will effect your corp and in what way.
Which part of the Some of these modules have been decreased in efficiency mostly because there will be skills to increase them to same or similar level to what's currently on Tranquility. did BURN EDEN not get?
Yeah, I have looked at this closely, and with max skills on a scorp with bs 5, you will still only be able to use ecm at under 100k. Now if your gankageddon is sitting 150k away, im pretty screwed dont you think.
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Heinky> Dont mix eve with rl it can be bad for your health |
Clipped Wings
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Posted - 2005.02.17 08:42:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Shin Ra
Yeah, I have looked at this closely, and with max skills on a scorp with bs 5, you will still only be able to use ecm at under 100k. Now if your gankageddon is sitting 150k away, im pretty screwed dont you think.
...Of course, by definition, a gankageddon wouldn't be able to hit at half of those 75K anyway, but maybe that's semantics...
Long-range Tempests will still be dangerous at that range, but it's going to need a good deal of them to take you down before you can warp out.
I don't really see the problem. You can still warp your ships in so the EW ships are hidden a bit at the back, they just can't do it at ranges where no one could physically hit them anymore. Sensor dampening from 100-300K does seem a bit excessive, I'd think.
-Clipped Wings of LFC
"I believe in the theoretical benevolence, and practical malignity of man."
~William Hazlitt
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Shin Ra
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Posted - 2005.02.17 11:17:00 -
[15]
Yeah true, ppl who have another ship setup to boost them and start dampning at 300k are taking it a bit far. However, you also get the odd apoc being boosted by a scorp with 8 remote tracking enhancers, which is equally rediculous. But 90% of fleet battles thesedays are faught at long range and its essential for dampners and ecm to work at the same range as turrets if they are to be considered a substitute for tanking and ganking.
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Heinky> Dont mix eve with rl it can be bad for your health |
MrMorph
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Posted - 2005.02.17 11:43:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Clipped Wings
Personally, I'll wait until the changes:
A: make it to the test server so we can find out how it pans out, and
B: Make it to TQ, so we can see how it's implemented, before claiming it to be bad changes.
And yes, I use EW, but personally, I have found sensor dampeners to be unbalanced for a long time anyway.
Yah, changes seem to change radically when they enter TQ for some reason.
Tho no changes ever have been for the better as of yet :)
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Trishys cookies they are !
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Hast
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Posted - 2005.02.17 11:53:00 -
[17]
waaaaaaah, I cant use my overpowered damps anymore 
on a more serious note, I'm not to happy about all the changes, but I need to test them later, before I make up my mind... I have only two thing to say to TomB and that is: nerf the friggin warp core stabs! and damps needs some balancing as well, since they are kinda overpowered now imo.
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H Zub
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Posted - 2005.02.17 12:18:00 -
[18]
One of the most fun things you can have in eve is 1v1 ceptor. What I like to know is how's that possible now with a possible webifying range of 30km and a common locking range of +30km? Add to that the random element of outside 16km where fall off will decide. Do you want to lose/win 1v1 ceptor randomly?
Not me. 
Captain Morgan Society
Me parrot
Movie |
Val Amon
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Posted - 2005.02.17 14:31:00 -
[19]
1. WTS scorp bpo, WTB arma bpo
2. Don't mess with the webs, give it falloff or whatever but nothing based on rolls.
Randomly losing 20-50 mil isk intys may turn some of the l33t pilots off to using good setups.
_
_
How many pilots does it take to wire a Flux Capacitor?
3, 1 to wire it and 2 to talk about how the old one was better. |
WTFOVER
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Posted - 2005.02.17 14:39:00 -
[20]
EW Platforms such as the Scorp/BB will suffer... Which sucks  But, CCP could easily just give it some BIG bonus's to bring it back to life...
Otherwise it doesn't sound all bad..
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Clipped Wings
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Posted - 2005.02.17 15:07:00 -
[21]
Originally by: WTFOVER
EW Platforms such as the Scorp/BB will suffer... Which sucks But, CCP could easily just give it some BIG bonus's to bring it back to life...
Otherwise it doesn't sound all bad..
Which would leave all other ships entirely out of the EW game?
So much for diversity.
-Clipped Wings of LFC
"I believe in the theoretical benevolence, and practical malignity of man."
~William Hazlitt
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Attrezzo Pox
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Posted - 2005.02.17 15:40:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Attrezzo Pox on 17/02/2005 15:51:49
Originally by: Shin Ra
Edited by: Shin Ra on 17/02/2005 05:17:32
Edited by: Shin Ra on 17/02/2005 05:16:47
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=152360
Just tying to find out the general pirate/merc opinion towards the ew changes.
Burn Eden is 100% against these changes, particularly the short ranges of sensor dampners. Since we rely heavily on this tactic to fight outnumbered, its going to cripple us. My personal opinion is that it is a further attempt to make piracy more difficult and force us to blob fight.
I was interested to see what other pirate and merc corps think of the new changes. I am not interested in anyones opinion of Burn Eden or any other pirate/merc corp nor am I interested in anything anyone has to say about how "insert random bad word" our tactics are. Simple post how these changes will effect your corp and in what way.
So let me get this straight, your overpowered tactic gets nerfed and you complain? It's been long known that EW is cheap and wayyyy too effective, that's why most people agree to 1vs1 without it. So I can understand you being kinda angry that such an easy cheap trick won't work anymore. Well, I for one am for MOST of the new changes. I think the chance idea is brilliant and making players use skills to do these things. I seriously doubt this is going to make things any more blobby than they already were. If people want to stop fighting blobs they need to wise up to some REAL tactics, like splitting into smaller groups while fighting as a fleet. Currently the idea is to jump onto teamspeak and listen to the "leader" call out one doofy target at a time but this is wastes horrendous amounts of firepower when you think about it. If you split into teams of say 10. You could STILL concentrate firepower, only take out two at once. ANyway, I think the EW changes by setting up chance might actually convince some people to try to attack more than one man at once. Or better yet play it safe and try to lure your enemy into a position where you can take a few more shots at scramming/jamming him if the first one doesn't work. Like guerilla tactics klipping off stragglers of a blob fleet. Using dampners isn't a tactic, it's like saying using a pistol is a tactic, those are weapons. Tactics refer to pre-thought out and somewhat generalized plans that can control a situation for a means to an end, ideally with you comming out on top. Most people in eve have one tactic... Get all your buddies and lag out a system in a big swarmy blob.
Now more on topic the only things that I would see as being real issues with this plan are:
Warp drive disruption works with low -2/-1 strengths now and it's nearly impossible to catch those warp core stackin bs. I would think that now that there's an element of chance perhaps they can boost the close range jammers to have a CHANCE of a -4/-3. This way it's pretty much all or nothing most of the time and rewards you for getting close to those indies.
Recycleing activation better not hurt your strengths abruptly. Meaning when the weapon recycles and reactivates will it draw new chance/strength thereby possibly letting the enemy get away/lock/whatever. I can see that with EW but doing it with disruptors or stasis web is kinda dumb.
The skill set looks ok but what about rank? Train times will effect this in a big way. For Jamming and MAYBe stasis I can see the use of a long train time. If warp scrams take forever to be effective then that's going to REALLY put the n00bs in eve at a HUGE disadvantage. Now, not only can they not fight, they can't do industry well, they can't do much mining, they wouldn't even be able to tackle. What's an old corp like ours to do? We won't help fresh meat if there's no way they can help us. I just hope eve doesn't make the skillset for these things so long and drawn out that it takes you serveral months to train to the point that ANY PvP corp would want to hire you. Anti-warp is a very good example of a n00b job as it doesn't require TOO much skill and it gets em used to combat. If CCP makes it as hard to train as large turret skills then n00bs would be useless in combat for a too long and therefore not wanted by PvP corps. This might result in people leaving from getting bored as alot of players just want to fight. (I know others just want to mine, but fighting is a big part of eve) I'm just saying you'll screw the n00bs that are deticated to fighting. Anyway I doubt this will be a problem as they'll likely end up rank 1 skills.
That's all I can really see. To be brief Jamming and sensor/tracking things are good fodder for chance. Warp disruption needs to be MOSTly useful. I agree with making it chance based overall. |
Stetu
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Posted - 2005.02.17 16:08:00 -
[23]
I love how the people crying in this thread are the ones that came against us and found our strategy and setup displeasing.
If you look at it from an unbiased most ew is okay right now. ECM ECCM could be fixed a bit just because nobody ever uses it.
The new scrambling system wont let you warp if you're loaded with stabs. I tried it with an arma loaded with stabs and 1 scrambler I. What does that mean for you indy pilots carrying loads of zyd ?
Just some thoughts :)
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fugazii
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Posted - 2005.02.17 16:31:00 -
[24]
the ew nerf is a great thing. the chance roll on scramblers will mean the end of pirating, and solo/small pvp groups becomin pointless as they will not be able to kill anything. its goin to create an influx of blob wars and already the servers cant handle them, now theres goin to be all the new ppl in blobs creating it even more unplayable.
my computer sucks, fleet battles rnt possible for me(usually) even 5 vrs 5 engagements makes me lag alot, if solo fighting is nerfed and blobbing becomes only way to get kills i might quit cuz i play for the pvp not laggy blobs.
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Attrezzo Pox
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Posted - 2005.02.17 16:41:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Attrezzo Pox on 17/02/2005 16:47:38
Ok this is a flame... sorry... he started it.
Originally by: Stetu
I love how the people crying in this thread are the ones that came against us and found our strategy and setup displeasing.
I don't find it "displeaseing" and I don't think anyone else does either it's effective and works all too well, plus it's not "your stradegy", and the only one crying in this thread was the guy who started it. Dampners are awesome they're really effective and always do exactly what you want them too. It borders less of a "strategy" and more on obvious common sence.
Originally by: Stetu
If you look at it from an unbiased
ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!@!$!@$ Screeching halt. Are you about to imply that you're looking at this from an UNBIASED perspective?
Originally by: Stetu
most ew is okay right now. ECM ECCM could be fixed a bit just because nobody ever uses it.
Yep he did, and beyond that he is doing exactly not what he said he would do. ECM and ECCM are used ALOT I don't know what you're talking about, the only reason they're not used is cause you can use dampners longer, for cheaper energy, at whatever range you can lock, and they ALWAYS work unless the enemy has some serious boosting going on, which is another deal all together. No... no sir if you look at this from an unbiased perspective you'd see that dampners have no range unlike pretty much everything in eve including other forms of EW. About 50% of their power comes from that one aspect alone! Three of them can easily disable an enemy's bs's locking ability, when the same amount of ECM have to be race tuned to do that. They last a hell of a long time, and the cap requirements are ridiculously low considering what they do. Makeing them easy to fit to any ship in the game and still so effective it makes me want to cry. Especially when I'm the one doing the dampning/ECM cause it's beautiful. Yes from an unbiased perspective, one where you haven't used dampners before, they're an obvious, cheap, and all too effective way of rendering an enemy completely useless.
Originally by: Stetu
The new scrambling system wont let you warp if you're loaded with stabs. I tried it with an arma loaded with stabs and 1 scrambler I. What does that mean for you indy pilots carrying loads of zyd ?
Just some thoughts :)
Finally. You must be one of those corps that runs alot. I don't really have a problem against running unless it starts to count as griefing. In that you annoy an enemy knowing there's NO way he can scram you and when they get close enough to fight run. The only reason I agree with stacking so many warp core stabs is when you're in a travel setup. That's really the only reason to use such a riduculous warp core strength. Also think about what that does for pirating. A n00b realizes if he loads his bs with stabs he can get some morphite in 0.0 and is gaurenteed come back unharmed. All of this without a single skill (of the two rank ones required) trained past level 1, what a deal! True 0.0 pirating is pretty much dead for this reason and alliances. Granted it's mostly due to alliances, and chokepoints, but in a few places I've been before where 0.0 was much more open space, pirating was near impossible because of the overuse of tons of warp core stabs. This effectively takes the pirates out of 0.0 and plops their spare time into empire roid belts where there's a chance they can find some poor fella to kill. CCP is just trying to keep them busier and more profitable out in 0.0 where they belong that's all. If they make it possible to warp scram again, then pirating in 0.0 is back in business. Now all they need to do is clear up choke points. (I'm a pirate but camping a gate is boring and G.A.Y G@Y!!) |
Attrezzo Pox
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Posted - 2005.02.17 16:49:00 -
[26]
Originally by: fugazii
the ew nerf is a great thing. the chance roll on scramblers will mean the end of pirating, and solo/small pvp groups becomin pointless as they will not be able to kill anything. its goin to create an influx of blob wars and already the servers cant handle them, now theres goin to be all the new ppl in blobs creating it even more unplayable.
my computer sucks, fleet battles rnt possible for me(usually) even 5 vrs 5 engagements makes me lag alot, if solo fighting is nerfed and blobbing becomes only way to get kills i might quit cuz i play for the pvp not laggy blobs.
agreed on the warp stabs as I said. I'm not too much against a roll as long as there are some possibilities of a scram strength above 2.. as in the 4-5 range. (dependent on range of course) |
fugazii
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Posted - 2005.02.17 18:07:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Attrezzo Pox
Originally by: fugazii
the ew nerf is a great thing. the chance roll on scramblers will mean the end of pirating, and solo/small pvp groups becomin pointless as they will not be able to kill anything. its goin to create an influx of blob wars and already the servers cant handle them, now theres goin to be all the new ppl in blobs creating it even more unplayable.
my computer sucks, fleet battles rnt possible for me(usually) even 5 vrs 5 engagements makes me lag alot, if solo fighting is nerfed and blobbing becomes only way to get kills i might quit cuz i play for the pvp not laggy blobs.
agreed on the warp stabs as I said. I'm not too much against a roll as long as there are some possibilities of a scram strength above 2.. as in the 4-5 range. (dependent on range of course)
youve got to remember each cycle its a new roll so the chance to keep say a bs scrambled long enough to kill is slim and even less so with wcs involved.
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OffBeaT
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Posted - 2005.02.17 18:40:00 -
[28]
Edited by: OffBeaT on 17/02/2005 19:01:00
look, you guys all dam well know you can counter any kind of jamming thats being done right now..
but most of yeas just dont got the balls too strip your ships too put the counter gear on too do it..
the jammer strips his ships off too beable too jam effectivly so too counter it you have too do the same.. thats called stacking..
from what im seeing in the fight club is lots of tanking so i dont think they are too impressed with the jamming..
too tell you the truth..
my jamming days will be over when the skills come out..
i just wont risk a raven or scorp on a hafe ass chance..
i can only damp from what i can see at a range of 40km.. but a apoc can hit me at 130. so **** that..
it will just be tanking for the most part with gank setups..
highend play will always win for the most part low end players will always lose..
so alot of yong corps will be spending alot of time in impire, like they are not now i guess..
i love jamming.. i still say there is more skill too it then tanking and gank setups anyday.. 
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Lygos
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Posted - 2005.02.17 19:08:00 -
[29]
General EW should favor a complex approach to combat range.
1)"Invert" targetting accuracy on most EW. Reason for this is because targetting modules sought to be more accurate up close. It's not really inverted because all turrets have better tracking at range, but whatever. Instead of all EW performing normally (100%) within a certain range, it should operate normally (99%) beyond a certain range.
2)Warp scramming gets stronger or more accurate or consistent up close. Warp core stabs are passive modules so they probably can't be configured with a range effect. These are the truly inverted ones if they have a "to hit" or tracking effect. This way interceptor tacklers retain their proper role.
Also, I'd like to see other areas of electronic warfare addressed, like targetting. Targetting should have a range modifier, the farther you are away from a target when you initiate targetting, the longer it should take to lock on. Remote lock time boosters would simply compensate for the additional range they offer the sniper. Lower effectiveness passive dampers would be nice, but only to shrink sig radius or something more effective.
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2005.02.17 19:32:00 -
[30]
Originally by: fugazii
youve got to remember each cycle its a new roll so the chance to keep say a bs scrambled long enough to kill is slim and even less so with wcs involved.
I interpreted it differently to that. AFAIK a warp scrambler has a 100% chance of working within its optimal (which shall remain at 7.5km), however the warp core stabiliser will NOT be 100% effective.
So, if you scramble within 7.5km you WILL scramble a single warp core stab, guarenteed, and you ALSO have a chance of scrambling a battleship that has EIGHT warp core stabs.
Further to that, if you are in your falloff you STILL have a chance of scrambling the EIGHT warp core stabbed bs, it's just not as high as if you're in the optimal.
Great changes (if I'm interpreting them right :/)
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