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Yarrrrrhh	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:22:00 - [1] Edited by: Yarrrrrhh on 27/06/2011 19:24:57 Someone got their hands on the latest annual report of CCP. You can check it out yourself here. CCP is a profitable company but it looks like it is having some cash flow problems because development costs for Dust and WoD are high. You can read an analysis of their situation here. They will have to repay a large loan later this year which will require most of their cash assets therefore they'd have to take another loan or sell parts of their company. For that to be feasible though CCP has to show that it's making a profit and apparently they're trying to use MT to make their cash flow problem look less serious. Which explains pretty much everything that CCP has done, said and hinted at so far. TL;DR Dust and WoD are burning too much of CCPs cash and therefore they need to at least show that MT can work in EVE so they can get their hands on fresh cash from loans/equity deals.
Goauld Baal	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:24:00 - [2] In other words some one at CCP left the check book open and out on the table and now they want there player base to make up what there lacking HAHAHAH yeah thats not going to happen
Boaz Hedion Merkava	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:25:00 - [3] Yeah an interesting read, if you're an accountant. So, 360.000 subscribers and increasing...
SciWolf	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:25:00 - [4] Edited by: SciWolf on 27/06/2011 19:26:46 Edited by: SciWolf on 27/06/2011 19:25:31 JUST RAISE THE SUB. THAT IS ALL. OR A DONATE BUTTON FFS. If this works for music albums - it will definately work here! Hell, if you said you need money and made a DONATE button, i'd **ing give you 20-30$ more every week. I even don't mind you do BOTH! Raise the sub a little and make a DONATE button. But instead.... oh... nvm... And btw you, for now, lost your time and faith. Originally by:** Boaz Hedion Merkava Yeah an interesting read, if you're an accountant. So, 360.000 subscribers and increasing... Increasing? I'd never hire you.
ddogg Amarr HuzzaH	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:26:00 - [5] Originally by: Yarrrrrhh Edited by: Yarrrrrhh on 27/06/2011 19:22:51 Someone got their hands on the latest annual report of CCP. You can check it out yourself here. CCP is a profitable company but it looks like it is having some cash flow problems because development costs for Dust and WoD are high. You can read an analysis of their situation here. The will have to repay a large loan later this year which will require most of their cash assets therefore they'd have to take another loan or sell parts of their company. For that to be feasible though CCP has to show that it's making a profit and apparently they're trying to use MT to make their cash flow problem look less serious. Which explains pretty much everything that CCP has done, said and hinted at so far. TL;DR Dust and WoD are burning too much of CCPs cash and therefore they need to at least show that MT can work in EVE so they can get their hands on fresh cash from loans/equity deals. would be a shame to see the finest mmo ever made burned to finance new projects. ccp should have organised separate revenue streams for long term development, still easy to say in hind site. Hope they get it all sorted and don't have to sellout to one of the big companies to survive.
Lug Thorne Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:26:00 - [6] So really their short term financial future depends on keeping Eve going?
Yarrrrrhh	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:27:00 - [7] Originally by: Lug Thorne So really their short term financial future depends on keeping Eve going? After jeopardizing it with WoD and Dust. That's how it looks to me.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:29:00 - [8] And to think of how they could have had help digging themselves out of the hole they dug by just coming forward about it
Xinxua	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:30:00 - [9] Originally by: Yarrrrrhh Originally by: Lug Thorne So really their short term financial future depends on keeping Eve going? After jeopardizing it with WoD and Dust. That's how it looks to me. Yes sticking to one product line and not expanding into new markets is the best way to expand your company.
Midnight Hope Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:30:00 - [10] Nah, they got that covered with the 52 monocles they already sold.

Deja Blue Gallente Vimana Empire	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:31:00 - [11] Edited by: Deja Blue on 27/06/2011 19:35:13 CCP suffers from **** poor management. As in , there is no management, there is no vision, there is no direction. Their employees do not even know what their job is, they have to figure it out by trial and error because they do not even have a proper human resources department. On and on. They think that organizing makes them more corporate and they want to keep the naive you party atmosphere, but they really just frustrate their own workforce. I am surprised they even have an annual report as it is pretty corporate to show such organization and a report?! All in all CCP is just a mom and pop shop that made it so far. BUT, THIS is why it takes them 5 years to make ONE room for us to ambulate in and why they are having financial problems.
Khamal Jolstien Caldari Sick Tight BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:31:00 - [12] Originally by: Yarrrrrhh Edited by: Yarrrrrhh on 27/06/2011 19:28:48 *Disclaimer: I am not an accountant, I'm just passing on information. Please read with caution and double check things stated here yourself. No guarantee on this being correct at all.* Someone got their hands on the latest annual report of CCP. You can check it out yourself here. CCP is a profitable company but it looks like it is having some cash flow problems because development costs for Dust and WoD are high. You can read an analysis of their situation here. They will have to repay a large loan later this year which will require most of their cash assets therefore they'd have to take another loan or sell parts of their company. For that to be feasible though CCP has to show that it's making a profit and apparently they're trying to use MT to make their cash flow problem look less serious. Which explains pretty much everything that CCP has done, said and hinted at so far. TL;DR Dust and WoD are burning too much of CCPs cash and therefore they need to at least show that MT can work in EVE so they can get their hands on fresh cash from loans/equity deals. Simple solution: Cancel DUST and WoT, or outsource/license development to competent studios for these products and become a developer/publisher. Originally by: McKinlay When you get on the batphone and the only people left in the phone book are Aeternus and BLAST it might be time to hang up.
Fire Watch	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:31:00 - [13] Its that bad?
Yarrrrrhh	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:31:00 - [14] Originally by: Xinxua Originally by: Yarrrrrhh Originally by: Lug Thorne So really their short term financial future depends on keeping Eve going? After jeopardizing it with WoD and Dust. That's how it looks to me. Yes sticking to one product line and not expanding into new markets is the best way to expand your company. Not sure if serious but: why did they have to start TWO new insanely big development projects at the same time?
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:32:00 - [15] Edited by: JC Anderson on 27/06/2011 19:32:09 Yeah well, this pretty much puts CCP in the same boat as a good majority of international corporations in this day and age. And I'm not saying this in support or as a statement against CCP... Just trying to get the point across that it's really not worth speculating on because CCP will never release the details of their financial situation... Well, they are owned privately right? To be honest I have no idea if that's the case or not.
Tobiaz Spacerats	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:33:00 - [16] Edited by: Tobiaz on 27/06/2011 19:35:23 I guess there are some very unhappy employees at CCP if stuff like this gets leaked. Or are these things public? edit: nm it's public So because CCP wanted to make more games from the money we pay for EVE they are now jeopardizing their most important source of income? Great job Hilmar! + 1500 votes on MT in EVE \| NO 79.03% \| YES 5.02% \| COSMETIC ONLY 11.23% \| OTHER 4.73%
Slymah Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:33:00 - [17] I would support a "donate" button over MT's
Zeta Kalin Large Rodent Hunters	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:34:00 - [18] Originally by: JC Anderson Edited by: JC Anderson on 27/06/2011 19:32:09 Yeah well, this pretty much puts CCP in the same boat as a good majority of international corporations in this day and age. And I'm not saying this in support or as a statement against CCP... Just trying to get the point across that it's really not worth speculating on because CCP will never release the details of their financial situation... Well, they are owned privately right? To be honest I have no idea if that's the case or not. Hi, they are legally bound to release them, so they did. They are an European company your US background doesn't apply. -- I do have a few expensive suits. However I'm pretty sure none is more expensive than an aircraft carrier.
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:35:00 - [19] Originally by: Tobiaz I guess there are some very unhappy employees at CCP if stuff like this gets leaked. Or are these things public? This is actually public information for a change, just not normally widely disseminated.
Khamal Jolstien Caldari Sick Tight BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:37:00 - [20] Originally by: Yarrrrrhh Originally by: Xinxua Originally by: Yarrrrrhh Originally by: Lug Thorne So really their short term financial future depends on keeping Eve going? After jeopardizing it with WoD and Dust. That's how it looks to me. Yes sticking to one product line and not expanding into new markets is the best way to expand your company. Not sure if serious but: why did they have to start TWO new insanely big development projects at the same time? I called this a long time ago. One project during the production phase has an extremely expensive burn rate. Having two, on top of EVE, is an exercise in sheer stupidity. Either someone didn't know what they're doing despite their 10 years of doing this (chuckle), or someone had the hubris to think they could do it better than everyone else in the industry. Originally by: McKinlay When you get on the batphone and the only people left in the phone book are Aeternus and BLAST it might be time to hang up.

Titas Agor TITANS OF PEACE	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:38:00 - [21] WOD has been in development for longer then dust, it was already discussed when CCP joined whitewolf how many years ago? the problem is that they've had to stall on that for so long untill all the work for incarna has been completed so they could finish off the WOD project as the incarna engine was the games core engine for that game, but for dust, they've messed up on making it console exclusive, for which microsoft said a big fat F.U for the downloadable content to keep dust update, patched, keep it compatible to the never ending changes of the eve universe, which in turn made it just exclusive for PS3 only, which is going to sink that game fast, it should have been available on PC also then you most likely wouldn't have had an issue has 50% of eve players more then likely would have got it to be even more involved in the universe. Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels. Zymurgist
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:39:00 - [22] Originally by: Khamal Jolstien Cancel DUST and WoT, or outsource/license development to competent studios for these products and become a developer/publisher. No. If they cancel them they have to write them off, remember all the code they wrote is in the balance sheet as capitalized expenses.
Boaz Hedion Merkava	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:39:00 - [23] Edited by: Boaz Hedion Merkava on 27/06/2011 19:41:24 I support the idea of a higher monthly fee if this would mean that AUR would be removed. Those monocles are fugly as hell anyway. And I'm sure that the site where (ex-)employees talk about CCP will be damage controlled asap. Edit: you know what... If CCP'd just embrace the community in total and allowing us to help instead of them making odd decisions, CCP would be the best structured, richest gaming company by far, to excel to where no game company has excelled before. (In space.)
Fire Watch	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:40:00 - [24] Edited by: Fire Watch on 27/06/2011 19:40:36 They have no choice but to release Dust on the PC or cancel it.
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:40:00 - [25] Edited by: JC Anderson on 27/06/2011 19:42:28 Originally by: Zeta Kalin Originally by: JC Anderson Edited by: JC Anderson on 27/06/2011 19:32:09 Yeah well, this pretty much puts CCP in the same boat as a good majority of international corporations in this day and age. And I'm not saying this in support or as a statement against CCP... Just trying to get the point across that it's really not worth speculating on because CCP will never release the details of their financial situation... Well, they are owned privately right? To be honest I have no idea if that's the case or not. Hi, they are legally bound to release them, so they did. They are an European company your US background doesn't apply. Hmmm.. Thats actually pretty cool. Originally by: Boaz Hedion Merkava I support the idea of a higher monthly fee if this would mean that AUR would be removed. Those monocles are fugly as hell anyway. And I'm sure that the site where (ex-)employees talk about CCP will be damage controlled asap. I'd actually be fine with that too. But lets be honest and face the fact that it's not a solution CCP would choose.
Tugrath Akers	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:41:00 - [26] Originally by: Titas Agor the incarna engine was the games core engine for that game Ouch.
Slighet Siempre Muerto	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:44:00 - [27] I suspect that it'll only be a timed exclusive to PS3. Unless you're the absolute must have shooter (hi Halo) then lifecycles on console really aren't that long. They're unlikely to be a massive long-term hit. it's possible certainly but it's not the sort of thing you bet your company on. So assuming it's not a massive failure I expect to see Dust either on a next-gen console when they arrive, or PC within a couple of years.
Khamal Jolstien Caldari Sick Tight BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:44:00 - [28] Originally by: Saving Face Originally by: Khamal Jolstien Cancel DUST and WoT, or outsource/license development to competent studios for these products and become a developer/publisher. No. If they cancel them they have to write them off, remember all the code they wrote is in the balance sheet as capitalized expenses. So? I'm no accounting genius, but if these things are dragging you down, there's always the option to cut your losses and focus on what's working. Outsourcing/licensing these projects would also work, since the development work isn't wasted, but they don't have to take the full risk on it tanking. Either way you look at it, a one time loss as the game is canceled and the work is written off is a hell of a lot better than recurring losses on top of a game that they have no experience in making. Originally by: McKinlay When you get on the batphone and the only people left in the phone book are Aeternus and BLAST it might be time to hang up.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:46:00 - [29] Originally by: Khamal Jolstien One project during the production phase has an extremely expensive burn rate. Having two, on top of EVE, is an exercise in sheer stupidity. Either someone didn't know what they're doing despite their 10 years of doing this (chuckle), or someone had the hubris to think they could do it better than everyone else in the industry. :cough: ICELAND :cough: _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Jonathan Malcom Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:46:00 - [30] An interesting read. It's nice to have confirmation. I've been floating a theory that describes this exact scenario. :Nostradamus: Still, though, while I understand the need for additional revenue generation, perhaps improving the features of your existing product to increase player satisfaction and thereby generate more subscriptions via word of mouth (you know, the same formula that made your game a success in the first place) would be a better plan than literally ass-raping your loyal customer base. Just a thought. Also, lol @ "our research shows that new features sell better than fixing old content." Does it, now. ___________________

Rikki Rokkit	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:47:00 - [31] Wha'chu talkin 'bout willis? They have healthy cash reserves, good ratio's and decent CF's. I don't have the time to delve too deeply into this, because I should be working instead of reading forums but, in all honestly it doesn't look bad. funny though that ISK = Icelandic Kronor.
Alice Katsuko Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:49:00 - [32] To be honest, I'd pay a higher monthly fee if it meant keeping this game afloat, and especially if it meant we wouldn't have to deal with pay to win items being sold for PLEX.
Aphoxema G	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:50:00 - [33] I have difficulty believing this, especially with the massive upgrades they were apparently able to afford recently. But I am in agreement with the OP, if CCP needs to make more money to survive then they really should have just raised subscription fees. Just one USD or EUR a month wouldn't be substantial for the players but it's a definite boost to revenue. And that's party an indication itself that CCP isn't in financial woes; the first thing they would have done if they had an ounce of sense would be to raise prices slightly as needed. In the case that this is true, I just hope they don't become publicly owned... their lack of disclosure already is bad enough, but once the players are the shareholders they'll no longer benefit from being honest at all. ------------------------------- The fox chases for her meal, but the rabbit runs for her life.
Khamal Jolstien Caldari Sick Tight BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:51:00 - [34] Originally by: Alice Katsuko To be honest, I'd pay a higher monthly fee if it meant keeping this game afloat, and especially if it meant we wouldn't have to deal with pay to win items being sold for PLEX. They'll do the higher fees. Wait for the rage to die down, and then quietly start reintroducing pay to win. Originally by: McKinlay When you get on the batphone and the only people left in the phone book are Aeternus and BLAST it might be time to hang up.
Fixation	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:51:00 - [35] Originally by: Boaz Hedion Merkava So, 360.000 subscribers and increasing... Not really -- That's total accounts not individual owners.. Most dedicated players of eve have 2,3,4,5+ accounts.
Illadelph Justice SniggWaffe FREE KARTTOON NOW	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:51:00 - [36] Originally by: Yarrrrrhh Originally by: Xinxua Originally by: Yarrrrrhh Originally by: Lug Thorne So really their short term financial future depends on keeping Eve going? After jeopardizing it with WoD and Dust. That's how it looks to me. Yes sticking to one product line and not expanding into new markets is the best way to expand your company. Not sure if serious but: why did they have to start TWO new insanely big development projects at the same time? Well they have to finish WoD before people stop reading twilight books. ---
Tahir ul-Batin	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:53:00 - [37] Originally by: Slighet I suspect that it'll only be a timed exclusive to PS3. Unless you're the absolute must have shooter (hi Halo) then lifecycles on console really aren't that long. They're unlikely to be a massive long-term hit. it's possible certainly but it's not the sort of thing you bet your company on. So assuming it's not a massive failure I expect to see Dust either on a next-gen console when they arrive, or PC within a couple of years. /this
Yarrrrrhh	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:54:00 - [38] Originally by: Illadelph Justice Well they have to finish WoD before people stop reading twilight books. One more reason to do that first and not develop Dust at the same time as well. CCP management bit off more than it could chew.
larry hotter bigpants	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:55:00 - [39] What I find shocking is that they consider their goodwill to be worth 4.2 million dollars. I can't wait t see what that number is in the 2011 report. Not because I think we all are complianing too much, but because of all the negative press they have received.
Annie Anomie Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2011.06.27 19:57:00 - [40] CCP I actually kinda like you guys and your game. Somewhat less so than before I started watching some of your recent debacles but I don't see why we can't get the goodwill back. When you're not doing stuff like this you're actually a lot better than most MMO publishers. If you give some indication of not just seeing us as cash cows to be milked and that you understand why your core customers play I'd probably even pay a higher sub. Nevermind 60 quid monocles or other bat**** "get rich quick" schemes. Re-engage with your community (I know we're scarier than your missus on PMS week but still) and treat EVE with a bit of respect. It's hard not to see this current situation in light of what I have heard about the development hiccups of Incarna and read about the management problems at CCP btw. Please fix that stuff so this doesn't happen again.

Maplestone	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:01:00 - [41] They could go over to the market discussions forum and offer a bond-for-PLEX. (I'm only half-joking)
Ispai Ponue Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:02:00 - [42] Originally by: Yarrrrrhh A personal note to CCP: A very unconventional solution would be to actually raise subscription fees after communicating it correctly to the community. The problem is that I for one am not really willing to pay more at this point. I think others might feel the same. Here's why: * The gameplay isn't actually THAT interesting. PvE sucks. PvP is cool but you end up in all these "have-to" situations filled with drama. If you just feel like doing something else people freak out. The only thing that really leaves a casual player is solo pirating, and that also gets pretty boring a lot of the time. * I'm really disappointed in the company behind the game. They decide to rewrite it all in Python (the parts that where not already) because it supposedly increases testability, etc...and less and less actually works with every patch. They silently remove features for no apparent reason, don't fix what's currently broken, and just leave long standing issues that the players are complaining about untouched. * The latest expansions kind of suck. Incarna is the end result of what I see as a continuous trend in the game: too much focus on nonsense while the actual game suffers. There's nothing about Incarna that's actually worth a damn. I hate CQ and find it utterly useless and though the guns are cool and all, I'd much rather an overview that functioned (just for one extreme example). All of this stuff combined and I've hardly bothered to even log in of late. When I do it's just to train, not to play. I'm already asking myself WTF I keep shelling out money for this game (I have a measly 2 accounts). If they raised the price I think it would be the final push I need to just unsub. Not to say that it's not a valid idea, I'm just saying that to me it simply wouldn't be worth it to pay more. I'm already kind of ****ed I have to pay for two accounts just to train two characters. No other MMO forces me to do that. So it's already the most expensive MMO I've ever played and really have no interest in paying any more. But that's just me.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:04:00 - [43] FHC mentions a 30,000 unsub population is needed to put CCP in negative territory. It's also mentioned that they may already need MT to make their income look more attractive in order to get the loan at a lower rate. However, would that number be necessary to affect their potential to refinance their 11 mil loan that is due in October? If the community could resolve to keep a certain number unsubbed until then it might be just the leverage we need.
Yarrrrrhh	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:07:00 - [44] Originally by: Ispai Ponue Originally by: Yarrrrrhh A personal note to CCP: A very unconventional solution would be to actually raise subscription fees after communicating it correctly to the community. The problem is that I for one am not really willing to pay more at this point. I think others might feel the same. Here's why: * The gameplay isn't actually THAT interesting. PvE sucks. PvP is cool but you end up in all these "have-to" situations filled with drama. If you just feel like doing something else people freak out. The only thing that really leaves a casual player is solo pirating, and that also gets pretty boring a lot of the time. * I'm really disappointed in the company behind the game. They decide to rewrite it all in Python (the parts that where not already) because it supposedly increases testability, etc...and less and less actually works with every patch. They silently remove features for no apparent reason, don't fix what's currently broken, and just leave long standing issues that the players are complaining about untouched. * The latest expansions kind of suck. Incarna is the end result of what I see as a continuous trend in the game: too much focus on nonsense while the actual game suffers. There's nothing about Incarna that's actually worth a damn. I hate CQ and find it utterly useless and though the guns are cool and all, I'd much rather an overview that functioned (just for one extreme example). All of this stuff combined and I've hardly bothered to even log in of late. When I do it's just to train, not to play. I'm already asking myself WTF I keep shelling out money for this game (I have a measly 2 accounts). If they raised the price I think it would be the final push I need to just unsub. Not to say that it's not a valid idea, I'm just saying that to me it simply wouldn't be worth it to pay more. I'm already kind of ****ed I have to pay for two accounts just to train two characters. No other MMO forces me to do that. So it's already the most expensive MMO I've ever played and really have no interest in paying any more. But that's just me. You're right. I'm going to remove that from my post.
Langoss	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:12:00 - [45] This is the reason they don't insta ban BOTS. They need bots's subs(money) too
Bieber Fever	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:13:00 - [46] Some kind of neckbeard council of the best forum people should be assembled to run CCP. Apparently there are people who figure out patch problems, expansion delusions, market effects, and much more far better than anyone at CCP. Eve players know 10x more about eve than anyone at CCP.
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:13:00 - [47] Edited by: Saving Face on 27/06/2011 20:14:10 Originally by: Mr Kidd FHC mentions a 30,000 unsub population is needed to put CCP in negative territory. That's half of the picture. About 30k subs/year less would be enough to put their profit in the negative given everything else stays the same. The reported profit is meaningless though. Cash flow is important and that is already negative. (Unless they can sell shares again.) Quote: It's also mentioned that they may already need MT to make their income look more attractive in order to get the loan at a lower rate. However, would that number be necessary to affect their potential to refinance their 11 mil loan that is due in October? If the community could resolve to keep a certain number unsubbed until then it might be just the leverage we need. They can pay that loan back if they don't lose their cash. Problem is they are still bleeding $8m per year so they need something to cover that or they go bankrupt in October. Increasing revenue from EVE by way of huge income from monocles would go a long way in convincing an investor/a bank that their code is actually worth what they said it was worth. Losing money over it will say the opposite, naturally.
Kurfin	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:16:00 - [48] Originally by: larry hotter bigpants What I find shocking is that they consider their goodwill to be worth 4.2 million dollars. I can't wait t see what that number is in the 2011 report. Not because I think we all are complianing too much, but because of all the negative press they have received. Goodwill in accounting term has nothing to customer relations, it to do with dividing ownership of the business between investors. It's a number largely plucked our of thin air (or rather arranged by the directors according to who has comprising pictures of who) that in no way contributes to the companies financial security. Someone who has done their accountancy qualification more recently than me could probably explain it better. It does look like they have spread themselves a little too thin. They could try partnering up with another company to help fund WoD, Dust is probably to much of a shot in the dark to get much outside investment in.
RC Denton	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:20:00 - [49] Seems like they may have bitten off more than they can chew. Or if they haven't it'll be close based on the analysis of the folks in that thread. It seems like since they've hyped Dust and started doing press releases on it etc, that they should finish the game and release it. I fear it will not be the cash cow they hope it to be (I'm sure they'll get decent sales of the box, but I really doubt they'll see much residual income from MT). It seems like they should be able to back burner WOD since they haven't hyped it up nearly as much as Dust, and even go so far as to shutter the Shanghai office temporarily. I'm not an accountant but merely postponing it, instead of cancelling it should allow them to avoid having to write off the asset all at once, thus killing their balance sheet. Doing this would free up capital to go into Dust development. Hindsight is 20/20 but unless they have some contractual obligations with someone, you'd think that starting two whole new large scale development projects simultaneously might have been a bit too ambitious.
Laplamis	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:20:00 - [50] Edited by: Laplamis on 27/06/2011 20:25:44 Wow, this has to be the worst OS/browser combination I have ever experienced. Anyway... Originally by: Jonathan Malcom ...perhaps improving the features of your existing product to increase player satisfaction and thereby generate more subscriptions via word of mouth... This. THIS.

Dograzor The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:24:00 - [51] Tbh if CCP is honest about needing more cashflow, I would not mind donating some extra cash.. As long as they give us a high quality product. I really would. Messed up thing is that I simply don't know what to believe as soon as CCP promises something. - "We don't gank, we just apply force in a disproportionate manner during an uneven tactical combat situation to maximize revenue and increase shareholder value"
Uglavitch Nefrex Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:26:00 - [52] Having read the end of year accounts, I actually support an increase in subscription cost, if they drop the microtransactions. Also I support a time limit on Plex.
Spookyjay Caldari Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:26:00 - [53] Facts are facts. CCP can not afford to be messing around out side EVE. EVE is what you did well and should stick to. Ifor one call for WOD assets to be sold off.
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:29:00 - [54] Originally by: Uglavitch Nefrex Having read the end of year accounts, I actually support an increase in subscription cost, if they drop the microtransactions. Also I support a time limit on Plex. Yeah that would work well, all the PLEXes suddently being used up ;)
Jessie42 Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:30:00 - [55] Welp, CCP are bankrupt.
Mutnin Amarr Mutineers	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:30:00 - [56] Pretty much proof is in the pudding, they have over stepped trying to develop 3 games at once and are now feeling the pinch. Trying to rob Peter to pay Paul never works for long, but at least we know for certain now why they are pushing MT so hard. Guess we will see how it all rides out comes Oct, will they work out a deal or have to give up most of their operating cash to pay off debit. One would assume if they can pay out the debit as a still profitable company that they should be able to acquire new debit. Yet someone needs to come to their senses and focus on what got them where they are today. It damn sure wasn't WoD or Dust. Nothing wrong with growing and building new income sources but doing it at the cost of your main income source is not smart. --------------------------- Fratricide - a contest of betrayal
Obviously Confidential	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:31:00 - [57] It is insane to develop three games at the same time. WoD and DUST are two risky projects with highly dubious commercial prospects and that require large amounts of investment. Coming from the same company that has recently failed at simple internet forums and keeps on neglecting its main revenue generator, that is being used as a milking cow / golden goose instead of being perceived as a real opportunity for growth. Their best source of organic and sustainable growth is being gambled for some risky crap that I think will end up as not one, but two commercial disasters - if ever released. Instead of growing with their feet on the ground from a small and solid base, CCP decided to shoot for the moon and chase after the :bigbux: markets. Let's hope all is not lost in this folly. The real opportunity is EVE! Stop being blinded by greedy megalomania. The CEO should really stop attending business gaming conventions and just play more EVE.
Piper Combs	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:31:00 - [58] If CCP were to promise to release Dust for the PC, I'd be willing to pre-order the game right now. I imagine there are probably a lot of other people who would too, which could add up to a significant amount of money.
moneykeeper	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:32:00 - [59] Cry me a river. If CCP wanted my cash they should have made the game better instead of making a shop to sell pants. There are many better charities than a failing game making corporation.
Tugrath Akers	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:32:00 - [60] Originally by: Spookyjay Facts are facts. CCP can not afford to be messing around out side EVE. EVE is what you did well and should stick to. Ifor one call for WOD assets to be sold off. What could they sell WOD for? A bag of peanuts, 2 ears of corn, and a bag of Ruffles?

Cancel Align NOW	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:33:00 - [61] Originally by: Rikki Rokkit Wha'chu talkin 'bout willis? They have healthy cash reserves, good ratio's and decent CF's. I don't have the time to delve too deeply into this, because I should be working instead of reading forums but, in all honestly it doesn't look bad. funny though that ISK = Icelandic Kronor. they pretty much have the same conversion rate to us dollars to...
Medidranda Livoga	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:34:00 - [62] Edited by: Medidranda Livoga on 27/06/2011 20:33:59 Originally by: Piper Combs If CCP were to promise to release Dust for the PC, I'd be willing to pre-order the game right now. I imagine there are probably a lot of other people who would too, which could add up to a significant amount of money. They already made a deal with Sony and probably recieved some exclusivity money for it + free advertising. Not to mention that if it actually affected sov battles in EVE there would be a hacking galore going on all the time.
Bevil Smyth Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:36:00 - [63] with best part of 10 years games industry experience myself ive seen what CCP are doing time and time again. Developer has hit product. Developer: OMFG MONEY! Developer assumes growth of financial empire is constant Developer spends money they have and assume they get to develop new games which cost too much to make Developer realises they cant afford to develop said games which have now gone overbudget surprise surprise and still dont have anything released Developer panics and then shortly later downsizes drastically, gets sold, closes shop or a combo of the above. Ive seen it happen to devs and publishers and on many occasions. Its so sad that no one seems to learn from the same mistake that seems to happen over and over again. ============================ 2003 and still alive!
Khamal Jolstien Caldari Sick Tight BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:36:00 - [64] Originally by: moneykeeper Cry me a river. If CCP wanted my cash they should have made the game better instead of making a shop to sell pants. There are many better charities than a failing game making corporation. Exactly. CCP needs to remember this. They are a business, and simply because they need to l2p doesn't mean we should put up with their crap. Smart businesses make good use of existing products and grow them, expand them, and build upon them. All of these are based upon customers, and if they do something that drives off the customers then they are lost. Originally by: McKinlay When you get on the batphone and the only people left in the phone book are Aeternus and BLAST it might be time to hang up.
Maul555 Amarr Reliables Inc BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:37:00 - [65] Edited by: Maul555 on 27/06/2011 20:37:41 If your listening CCP, just be honest with us. We love eve! I have been plexing recently but would be willing to re-sub if you guys really need it! I would even buy some stupid pants if you price it reasonably... The EVE Personality Test
Speaker4 theDead	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:38:00 - [66] Wow, this fits in perfectly with what's been going on..... Now they can say "No we didn't have plans to sell to Sony, however we suddenly find ourselves short of cash, and have no choice." An even better conspiracy theory would be they planned it all along, right down to the poor communication, leaked documents, etc, knowing that the ensuing uproar would hurt short term revenue, and put them in a position to be "Forced" to sell. p.s. If Goon lawyers are involved, we're already screwed.
handige harrie	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:39:00 - [67] Why all the doom and gloom?, they spend money on projects, they did something with shares, they had 1.3M insurance on goods inventory and they shuffled around some cash-flow stuff in the cash-flow thingy, at the end they still came out with a profit, less than previous year, but hey, they did dump a wad of cash in the development of 2 other games and Icelandic economy isn't known for it's booming period now...
Toovhon	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:41:00 - [68] So we're supposed to help fund and beta test technology for games we mostly have no intention of playing? And in the process we get to have Eve screwed up by moneymaking efforts because CCP are too incompetent to manage their finances and grow at a sustainable rate? Awesome... Is there any news coming out that will make me want to reverse my unsub? -- Frog blast the vent core!
Cornelius Rost	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:41:00 - [69] A lot of people in here saying they would donate. CCP is not a non-profit or a band on a startup website. Their paypal donate button equivalent is the monocles everyone is moaning about. Also, everyone continually stating "well if they had just been honest from the beginning and told us they were in money trouble" like CCP is your cash poor college kid, is just being ridiculous. They are a business. What is happening now was their business plan. It sounds like they are going to have some powwows and change that business plan, but the point is, what you are talking about is just not how it works. Let them have their chat with the CSM at the turn of the month and see if they come up with anything that sounds promising. In the mean time, buy a monocle if you feel like contributing to the cause.
Langoss	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:44:00 - [70] CCP will go bankrupt on October 28th if they cant sell 100000 monocles

Money for pants	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:44:00 - [71] Originally by: Yarrrrrhh CCP is a profitable company but it looks like it is having some cash flow problems If that's the case, CCP might be an easy prey for an industry giant...
Zeta Kalin Large Rodent Hunters	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:45:00 - [72] Originally by: handige harrie Why all the doom and gloom?, they spend money on projects, they did something with shares, they had 1.3M insurance on goods inventory and they shuffled around some cash-flow stuff in the cash-flow thingy, at the end they still came out with a profit, less than previous year, but hey, they did dump a wad of cash in the development of 2 other games and Icelandic economy isn't known for it's booming period now... The fact that they came up with a book profit won't change anything to the fact they'll be cashless comes October if they don't get a huge cash infusion by then, be it by a new investor round or borrowing again. -- I do have a few expensive suits. However I'm pretty sure none is more expensive than an aircraft carrier.
RC Denton	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:48:00 - [73] This is also funny, because when they first mentioned Wod and Incarna there was an outcry about them spending EVE dev resources on these other games and features instead of Eve. And all the appologists said "WTF? They aren't shorting EVE to build these games". And now we see that 50% of their gross revenue seems to be going to supporting development of Dust and WOD. Nice! They should fix and expand EVE and make it even grander and cooler. Gaining new subscriptions through awesomeness would be the A answer to increasing their revenue. Not pants on head ram the strap-on down your throat MT stuff.
Toovhon	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:50:00 - [74] Originally by: Xinxua Originally by: Yarrrrrhh Originally by: Lug Thorne So really their short term financial future depends on keeping Eve going? After jeopardizing it with WoD and Dust. That's how it looks to me. Yes sticking to one product line and not expanding into new markets is the best way to expand your company. The old idea you have to expand at a certain rate to validate your self worth? LOL. What a load of horsesh!t. Eve has been expanding slow and steady on it's own just fine, and has been profitable (after a rocky start - not uncommon to new MMOs) for years. CCP should have been happy with that modest expansion, and not started plowing all that profit into other uncertain projects. They certainly should not have started taking out massive loans to fund new projects, when they were once already profitable and the economic situation worldwide isn't good. I'm sorry, but I've zero sympathy for CCP - they got themselves into this mess. Why should we have to bail them out by having our game !@#$ed up? -- Frog blast the vent core!
Terminal Insanity Minmatar Convex Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:52:00 - [75] I just bought a 70 dollar monocle, so their new features definatly seem to be selling ^_^ now what to do with my leftover 2k aur...
Markus Jome	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:53:00 - [76] Edited by: Markus Jome on 27/06/2011 20:55:40 Originally by: RC Denton This is also funny, because when they first mentioned Wod and Incarna there was an outcry about them spending EVE dev resources on these other games and features instead of Eve. And all the appologists said "WTF? They aren't shorting EVE to build these games". And now we see that 50% of their gross revenue seems to be going to supporting development of Dust and WOD. Nice! They should fix and expand EVE and make it even grander and cooler. Gaining new subscriptions through awesomeness would be the A answer to increasing their revenue. Not pants on head ram the strap-on down your throat MT stuff. Actually, given that they are developing 2 new games from scratch, they have any right to spend even more of their money for these 2 new products. EvE is simply the firstborn child that hast to get used to mum and dad caring for 2 newborns. But the point is that whateveer reason CCP might have to introduce pay to win, lack of money would be no reason, as they have plenty of profit.
Toovhon	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:54:00 - [77] Originally by: Deja Blue Edited by: Deja Blue on 27/06/2011 19:35:13 CCP suffers from **** poor management. As in , there is no management, there is no vision, there is no direction. Their employees do not even know what their job is, they have to figure it out by trial and error because they do not even have a proper human resources department. On and on. They think that organizing makes them more corporate and they want to keep the naive you party atmosphere, but they really just frustrate their own workforce. I am surprised they even have an annual report as it is pretty corporate to show such organization and a report?! All in all CCP is just a mom and pop shop that made it so far. BUT, THIS is why it takes them 5 years to make ONE room for us to ambulate in and why they are having financial problems. Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines... What CCP employees think of CCP: http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/CCP-Games-Reviews-E159347.htm - it's damning stuff. Joey, have you ever been in a... in a Turkish prison? -- Frog blast the vent core!
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:56:00 - [78] Originally by: Markus Jome But the point is that whateveer reason CCP might have to introduce pay to win, lack of money would be no reason, as they have plenty of profit. /facepalm They are bleeding $8 mil a year and turning a paper profit because of the huge amount of capitalized expenses (dev cost for products that don't generate income right away => asset on the balance sheet).
Nuramori Amarr Drama Llamas	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:58:00 - [79] Running my own company, I found the info very interesting indeed. The internal leak is becoming both interesting and concerning, as I'm sure CCP is going to be hurt at some point with all the information getting out without it being put in context. I am a bit surprised DUST was dissolved and merged into CCP UK. Not sure why they absorbed that onto the books and didn't isolate it in case it fails. A large burden on the main company. After looking at this I can see their difficult position. Personally I would raise the sub rate and take advantage of both the passion of the user base as well as the hatred for MT that's evident. That way its a predictable rise in revenue. I'd even buy into some shares ;)
Markus Jome	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:59:00 - [80] Originally by: Saving Face Originally by: Markus Jome But the point is that whateveer reason CCP might have to introduce pay to win, lack of money would be no reason, as they have plenty of profit. /facepalm They are bleeding $8 mil a year and turning a paper profit because of the huge amount of capitalized expenses (dev cost for products that don't generate income right away => asset on the balance sheet). Ok, then i missed this, sorry

Portmanteau Gallente CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:00:00 - [81] Originally by: Maul555 Edited by: Maul555 on 27/06/2011 20:37:41 If your listening CCP, just be honest with us. We love eve! I have been plexing recently but would be willing to re-sub if you guys really need it! I would even buy some stupid pants if you price it reasonably... plexing or subbing makes no difference whatsoever to CCP' revenue
Care Bear King	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:03:00 - [82] Kill Aurum/Nex or kill EvE. Raise the monthly sub fee if need be. I will not fund CCP's other projects if they're going to **** in our sandbox as well. I'd rather watch it all burn.
Zeta Kalin Large Rodent Hunters	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:03:00 - [83] Originally by: Nuramori Running my own company, I found the info very interesting indeed. The internal leak is becoming both interesting and concerning, as I'm sure CCP is going to be hurt at some point with all the information getting out without it being put in context. Regarding the annual report it's not a leak, it was filled with the appropriate authority, from then it was just a matter of someone being curious. But the fact that CCP wasn't forthcoming with it making it downloadable from their website is very telling too. -- I do have a few expensive suits. However I'm pretty sure none is more expensive than an aircraft carrier.
Zhula Guixgrixks	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:07:00 - [84] Whoever leaked this. Eve community salutes you, sir !
Markus Jome	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:07:00 - [85] I wonder if Blizzard or EA are publishing their finances on their side.
Xeln Quuzg	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:09:00 - [86] Originally by: Yarrrrrhh TL;DR Dust and WoD are burning too much cash and therefore CCP needs to at least show that MT can work in EVE so they can get their hands on fresh cash from loans/equity deals. Ideally yesterday. that is consistent with the comments of one former ccp employee: "Several years now CCP has predicated insane subscriber goals that cannot be met. Naturally this is met with scepticism by the employees but it falls on deaf ears. The result is that the company is suffering because we cannot sustain the development of EVE, DUST and WOD. EVE is not creating enough revenue which means that solutions are sought, solutions that CCP was vehemently against a few years ago."
coolzero Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:09:00 - [87] Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks Whoever leaked this. Eve community salutes you, sir ! its most likely not a leak... most company's are made by law to show the books, seems like its the same for iceland. Jack of all trades, master of none...
Valentina Valentia Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:11:00 - [88] I am not playing to pay for THIS. CCP needs to real in it's expenses and live within it's means and cut off anything that isn't profitable [JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE] - the days of pie in the sky free money are gone, get with the times. People are cutting back and value better better be there or it's not happening. MT's are NOT the way to go, what is is cut these dead projects to a minimum, toss the WW people out the door to go find another cash cow for this LARP crap, and get back to CORE - EVE ONLINE. If they do that then life will be good again... I have seen WW in action, and personally I was less than impressed, it seemed a group with no direction, who just want to piddle around and never turn out anything. Drop them and that building and put CCP Iceland back to EVE!
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:16:00 - [89] Originally by: coolzero its most likely not a leak... No it's no leak. If you live in Iceland you can get a copy for a small fee. Someone on FHC actually was about to do that when someone else piped up that he already had it.
Silas Cooper	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:16:00 - [90] It's not like this was unexpected. Two new projects, massive company growth, failing economy (amplified by it being in an isolated country) and stubborn/eccentric leadership means they have to dig really, really deep. Mind you; any new project you start as a game developer means you put yourself at risk, that's just "normal practise". Real problem is that EVE is used both as "collateral" and cash cow while at the same time siphoning resources away from that product in order to make the other two happen. All it needed was a little nudge, something small to interfere and you end up in deep trouble. That thing that happened wasn't little, the economy crisis hits hard everywhere and makes for reluctant investors. Still, the main issue is taking on TWO new projects. That's just dumb. -- You can't cure stupid.

Zora Gallente Vector Industries DONT PANIC.	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:16:00 - [91] Meh, I don't know why but looking at the WoD emo dolls makes me a bit uncomfortable. Could live without it, but on the other hand I tremendously enjoyed the "Vampire" world 10 years ago. Maybe it's more for the youngster who actually like that style, but not much for the crowd CCP is serving right now. Which might be the reason to do this, since they can cover the geek angle with EVE, the action junkies with Dust, and the confused teenage boys/girls with WoD So all in all it might not be a bad plan but it's always hard when you're stretching your resources too thin. Better to focus, that way you can apply your strength better to the products you develop. That and I totally support the Dust development, since it strengthens the Eve IP which is something that seems to be working well and proven.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:16:00 - [92] The community, long ago, warned CCP about expanding versus improving Eve and making it more accessible to a larger audience while at the same time keeping the essence of the game intact. Sure it's easy to look back in hindsight and point fingers, but this also signals a change in some other tones as well, tones that the community also spoke up about. Many of those themes are being echoed today in the current situation. Though I'm inclined to be sympathetic, if they are indeed in trouble, the fact they did not appeal to our sympathies long ago, nor our warnings, does not incline me much sympathy for them today. The community gave hundreds, if not thousands, of suggestions how to improve the game, few were acknowledged. Many of them were aimed towards newer players, making the game more accessible and retention rates, especially for that seven month metric. If there is anything to learn, it is what we already know, the customer is king. My faith in CCP will return SoonÖ We'll watch what you do not what you say.
Anna Maziarczyk	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:16:00 - [93] Originally by: Goauld Baal In other words some one at CCP left the check book open and out on the table and now they want there player base to make up what there lacking HAHAHAH yeah thats not going to happen no kidding. Is EVE really Too Big to Fail? Maybe Iceland will do a Stimulus package to save their thriving MMORPG industry? If countries can Bailout the Airlines and Auto Industry, why not Virtual worlds too. I mean, interweb spaceships are just as vital to national prosperity as say Jeans or Coke?
Nizran L'Crit	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:17:00 - [94] Originally by: Portmanteau Originally by: Maul555 Edited by: Maul555 on 27/06/2011 20:37:41 If your listening CCP, just be honest with us. We love eve! I have been plexing recently but would be willing to re-sub if you guys really need it! I would even buy some stupid pants if you price it reasonably... plexing or subbing makes no difference whatsoever to CCP' revenue Actually, PLEXing is a big issue. A lot of people buy Plexes and then hold onto them instead of liquidating them in-game to be able to pay subs for the unforseeable future without actually having to pay money. This is a problem because that profit from plexes is realized on the books for that month, then they spend it as either "extra" money or as part of a sub amount, however, when it comes time for that person/people to redeem those plexes, they end up having to take the hit that month or year because it was already pre-paid. If they have a lot of these, they end up having far less income in the months they have to honor the plexes as opposed to when they received the funds for the plexes. Monthly subs are fairly straightforward, plexes can, if enough are redeemed at once, cause a huge hole where they aren't receiving any monthly income from that person/players.
Ra Vhim Black Bag Ops	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:21:00 - [95] If they remove the MT shop and can assure us that it will stay away in the future, I would resub and donate a bit of money if they give me an option to do so, just to help them get out of current troubles. I would never sponsor them to continue on this MT path.
Dryderian Vex Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:21:00 - [96] With WOD they chose one of the "complexest" RPG worlds that are out there in the pen and paper realm. That must be a hell of a project....
Yarrrrrhh	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:21:00 - [97] Originally by: Nizran L'Crit Monthly subs are fairly straightforward, plexes can, if enough are redeemed at once, cause a huge hole where they aren't receiving any monthly income from that person/players. Did anyone say 'bank run'?
i5L4NDOF5T4BiLiTY Gallente sHaKeDoWn..	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:22:00 - [98] I just get the feeling, this game and this company is already over.
Juliette DuBois	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:22:00 - [99] Edited by: Juliette DuBois on 27/06/2011 21:23:11 Originally by: Dryderian Vex With WOD they chose one of the "complexest" RPG worlds that are out there in the pen and paper realm. That must be a hell of a project.... Not really, PVE could just be you sneaking on a human NPC and getting a snack. And then cooldown bar on abilities. And yes, I kind of liked old world of darkness. Gaming system did not agree with me too much, though.
Benri Konpaku	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:24:00 - [100] Guess I wasn't far off the mark, though I seriously wish I was. Just sell WoD, drop Incarna (at least for now) and focus on fixing EVE and making Dust playable. Like I said before, this thing had all the signs of the most noobish (yet most common) mistake companies make. They spent more than they could generate and resorted to debt to pay for their new lifestyle , which they could not afford in the first place. WORSE PART BY FAR? Should have they come clean and admit defeat the players would've been willing to help CCP out of the hole. PLEX donations, purchase of silly 5 USD monocles for portraits, etc. Most of the community would've supported CCP if they saw them really working again to preserve EVE and bring it back to it's former post Apocrypha glory. But they underestimated their player base by such a far distance they'd need the old Cynos to go back where they started. It's a real f***ing shame. But everything that happens next is just CCP reaping what they sowed.

stoicfaux Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:24:00 - [101] Why is the report in English, and why does it use US dollars? ----- <wearing_$1000_jeans> Let them eat cake! </wearing_$1000_jeans>
Anna Maziarczyk	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:24:00 - [102] Or really believes this playerbase is dumb enough to fall for it? I could see it hapening with like, i dunno, just some other game. But they are gonna sit there, and right in front of us bring EVE development to a screeching halt, while diverting all EVE money to TWO new in development projects, and then hit us for P2W costs for cash influx to make up for poor fiscal management? I think they need like professional consulting. Iceland man make awesome spaceship game, not fiscal empire.
michael boltonIII Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:27:00 - [103] Originally by: Khamal Jolstien Originally by: Alice Katsuko To be honest, I'd pay a higher monthly fee if it meant keeping this game afloat, and especially if it meant we wouldn't have to deal with pay to win items being sold for PLEX. They'll do the higher fees. Wait for the rage to die down, and then quietly start reintroducing pay to win. Why are you using the word "re-introducing" are you implying that purchasing a monocle is in some way winning? You cannot currently "pay to win" nor are there any plans to include such a feature.
Yarrrrrhh	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:28:00 - [104] Originally by: stoicfaux Why is the report in English, and why does it use US dollars? Because CCP is an international company I guess.
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:28:00 - [105] Originally by: stoicfaux Why is the report in English, and why does it use US dollars? It's not uncommon to do accounting in USD as opposed to ISK when you're an international business, makes things much easier. If they actually do all their internal accounting in USD, this probably saved them in the last financial crisis.
Sarpadeon Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:31:00 - [106] Originally by: Nizran L'Crit Originally by: Portmanteau Originally by: Maul555 Edited by: Maul555 on 27/06/2011 20:37:41 If your listening CCP, just be honest with us. We love eve! I have been plexing recently but would be willing to re-sub if you guys really need it! I would even buy some stupid pants if you price it reasonably... plexing or subbing makes no difference whatsoever to CCP' revenue Actually, PLEXing is a big issue. A lot of people buy Plexes and then hold onto them instead of liquidating them in-game to be able to pay subs for the unforseeable future without actually having to pay money. This is a problem because that profit from plexes is realized on the books for that month, then they spend it as either "extra" money or as part of a sub amount, however, when it comes time for that person/people to redeem those plexes, they end up having to take the hit that month or year because it was already pre-paid. If they have a lot of these, they end up having far less income in the months they have to honor the plexes as opposed to when they received the funds for the plexes. Monthly subs are fairly straightforward, plexes can, if enough are redeemed at once, cause a huge hole where they aren't receiving any monthly income from that person/players. there would have to be a serious shift in the rate people use plex's for this to happen though, and considering CCP actually makes more money from a plex use compared to a subscription a higher plex usage would drive the isk price up, leading to more plex purchases to cash in on it.
JGR Mao Gallente JGR Corporation	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:32:00 - [107] I guess its time to welcome our new sandbox owners SOE, please dont mess this up as you did with SWG - mmkay?
Nuramori Amarr Drama Llamas	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:33:00 - [108] Yes perhaps I was a bit vague on the leaks comment. O wasn't referring to the annual report. I agree it is interesting that it wasn't on an investors page. Oh wait..... :p Given their accounting background combined with wanting to differentiate eve from other mmo's out there there are so many other models they could have gone with, not to mention simply raising rates with a clear explanation. Sure there would be upset subscribers but it would be less diengemuois.
mrbreakit Caldari Universal Module Acquisition Department	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:34:00 - [109] Hilarious side note: CCP cancelled the White Wolf CCG Vampire The Eternal Struggle. For being a game that they were literally sitting on mountains of product (that can no longer be sold do to licensing lapses) they had a strong niche player base that was lapping up everything they sold. While every smidgen they sold had to go to Hasbro/WotC for licensing **** (the tap mechanic lolol), they were still making a profit. Way to go guys. :D
Maul555 Amarr Reliables Inc BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:37:00 - [110] Originally by: Mr Kidd FHC mentions a 30,000 unsub population is needed to put CCP in negative territory. It's also mentioned that they may already need MT to make their income look more attractive in order to get the loan at a lower rate. However, would that number be necessary to affect their potential to refinance their 11 mil loan that is due in October? If the community could resolve to keep a certain number unsubbed until then it might be just the leverage we need. I do not want to put CCP between a rock and a hard place just for our own wants. I just want them to start acting right again. All else will follow... The EVE Personality Test

Anna Maziarczyk	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:37:00 - [111] Originally by: mrbreakit Hilarious side note: CCP cancelled the White Wolf CCG Vampire The Eternal Struggle. For being a game that they were literally sitting on mountains of product (that can no longer be sold do to licensing lapses) they had a strong niche player base that was lapping up everything they sold. While every smidgen they sold had to go to Hasbro/WotC for licensing **** (the tap mechanic lolol), they were still making a profit. Way to go guys. :D Twilight Online is canceled or youre talking about somethign else?
R2 D3 The Executives Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:39:00 - [112] I might be a bit tired but.... they still made a slight profit (what is an opinion and Cash is king). But they are not that illiquid yet as of how I see it. Will look more carefully into it tomorrow but it's definetly interesting to see the ccp annual report. Considering Deloitte audited it and signed it I guess it's legit. (it is not illegal to bring out an annual report of a company) However it is quite illegal to impersonate Deloitte and there auditors report. (In the case ccp was getting bankrupt it was said in the report and the values where different). They would be on liquidation value instead of the going concern method.
Ben Alman Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:41:00 - [113] Originally by: Markus Jome I wonder if Blizzard or EA are publishing their finances on their side. From investor.activision.com http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/ACTI/1304685493x0x461467/F432BA16-3D54-4EDB-9269-4F744E33B771/Activision_Blizzard_2010_ARS_Final_PDF.pdf
Swynet State War Academy	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:43:00 - [114] Nice scam. Pathetic.
Toawa EVE Mercantile Exchange Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:43:00 - [115] Edited by: Toawa on 27/06/2011 21:44:52 Originally by: Nizran L'Crit Actually, PLEXing is a big issue. A lot of people buy Plexes and then hold onto them instead of liquidating them in-game to be able to pay subs for the unforseeable future without actually having to pay money. This is a problem because that profit from plexes is realized on the books for that month, then they spend it as either "extra" money or as part of a sub amount, however, when it comes time for that person/people to redeem those plexes, they end up having to take the hit that month or year because it was already pre-paid. If they have a lot of these, they end up having far less income in the months they have to honor the plexes as opposed to when they received the funds for the plexes. Monthly subs are fairly straightforward, plexes can, if enough are redeemed at once, cause a huge hole where they aren't receiving any monthly income from that person/players. It's also worth keeping in mind that on a $/month/account basis, PLEX/GTCs are the highest revenue source that CCP charges. They'd actually be better off, in a sense, if everyone used PLEX, as long as they were smart enough to bank the money somewhere safe until it's actually called in. That they apparently count it as revenue immediately is probably not the best idea in the world... I'm 99% sure stores in the US that sell gift cards (which is about the closest analogue I can think of) are not allowed to count gift card purchases as revenue, to avoid these kinds of issues.
Fire Watch	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:47:00 - [116] Originally by: i5L4NDOF5T4BiLiTY I just get the feeling, this game and this company is already over. Drop Dust and they should be fine.
The Pteradactyl	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:47:00 - [117] A lot of retail businesses sell gift cards. They do this because on average (I work in this industry) just over 5% of all gift card purchases never get redeemed. You get money immediately (for reinvestment etc) and 5% of those cards never come back for product. PLEX is similar. If the PLEX is sitting in someones hangar and that person leaves suddenly for whatever IRL reason. The PLEX just sits there and EVE already has the profit.
Nektor Toff	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:53:00 - [118] I'd invest in CCP
Benri Konpaku	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:54:00 - [119] I'm really disappointed at CCP for misunderstanding PLEX income as an extra income. All it did was combat RMT and insure continued subscriptions. In other words their income never changed, never increased beyond their account numbers, just was insured with PLEX money. So they should've planned and projected based on the number of active subscriptions and EVE store sales, not total income (including plex sales) which was deceptively increasing. Anyone here can understand that, why couldn't they? Took too many projects without any money to make them work and then tried to scam us out of our game time using Aurum to cover their debts and expected people to buy that it just like that. It's just beyond ****ed. I mean it could've probably worked on other communities, but on EVE's playerbase? Are you serious? Heck, even freaking goons became a relatively good part of the community here, whereas they are like the plague in other games. That's just how different EVE's community mentality is compared to other games. ****ed I tell you.
Biomassed everyoneelse	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:58:00 - [120] This is strange Makes me wonder.

Maman Brigitte Licentia Ex Vereor Intergalactic Exports Group	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:59:00 - [121] Originally by: SciWolf JUST RAISE THE SUB. THAT IS ALL. OR A DONATE BUTTON FFS. For real. This is why communication is good. Tell your loyal fans that you're in trouble and they'll help you. Show your loyal fans that you're willing to screw them over a barrel for a dime, and they suddenly could care less.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.27 21:59:00 - [122] Originally by: Obviously Confidential The CEO should really stop attending business gaming conventions and just play more EVE. Lot of wisdom in that My faith in CCP will return SoonÖ We'll watch what you do not what you say.
Benri Konpaku	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:00:00 - [123] Originally by: Biomassed everyoneelse This is strange Makes me wonder. Well, Iceland companies don't have the best record when it comes to finances, so I wouldn't rule it out.
Nuramori Amarr Drama Llamas	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:00:00 - [124] Originally by: Fire Watch Originally by: i5L4NDOF5T4BiLiTY I just get the feeling, this game and this company is already over. Drop WoD and they should be fine. Fixed it for you. I agree. Too much, not isolated from main company as a separate entity, etc. Dust would be fine as an MT game, just like it's competition. Larger potential market, and a large established sister audience from eve. Funny thing is, if the CSM was less of a popularity contest and viewed as more of a brain trust resource, better input could have been given. This of course assumes that CCP would also be more forthright about the entire picture and not myopic with the disseminated information. The demographics of the eve user base is an older crowd; the older crowd likes more comprehensive approaches to fees than the nickel and diming perspective that comes with MT. While other games with a younger crowd would tolerate MT, the one that supports eve now is more in tune with the all inclusive fee approach. Just raise the rate, perhaps give the vanity items to appeal to the pea****s and younger crowd, but maintain the perception of not messing with what has been established as a player affected sandbox. Player inertia after 8+ years is not something you can easily fight.
Randaltor	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:01:00 - [125] Originally by: Benri Konpaku I'm really disappointed at CCP for misunderstanding PLEX income as an extra income. For the most part you are right.. however I think, if there's a difference between the cost of a plex vs cost of subscription, then they make a slight profit. Also it's possible that PLEX never get used.. in which case , it can be claimed as profit. For example, remember that 75 plexes that got destroyed in Jita. that's purre profit ! :)
Toawa EVE Mercantile Exchange Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:02:00 - [126] Originally by: The Pteradactyl A lot of retail businesses sell gift cards. They do this because on average (I work in this industry) just over 5% of all gift card purchases never get redeemed. You get money immediately (for reinvestment etc) and 5% of those cards never come back for product. PLEX is similar. If the PLEX is sitting in someones hangar and that person leaves suddenly for whatever IRL reason. The PLEX just sits there and EVE already has the profit. Of course, I can only speak for the US, but in many states unclaimed gift card money has to be turned over to the state after five years or so (it varies), which then holds it in case it is claimed. Of course, many stores would put a monthly fee on the card balance to avoid that, except now there are states which have forbidden the practice.
mrbreakit Caldari Universal Module Acquisition Department	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:03:00 - [127] Edited by: mrbreakit on 27/06/2011 22:05:14 I'm talking about the card game. WoD being my favorite setting, I have a feeling the Vampire MMO will be good, but niche as eve. Referring to it as "Twilight Online" shows you've never even so much as flipped through the original source book. But I digress, the point is, CCP cancelled something that was literally direct cash flow injection. Also They quietly moved nexet years North American Championship for VtES down to New Orleans to try to shoe horn in the VTES crowd to their giant "Masquerade" even they have for the LARPers and such. CCP doesn't like to communicate with it's player bases period D:
Portmanteau Gallente CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:06:00 - [128] Originally by: Nizran L'Crit Originally by: Portmanteau Originally by: Maul555 Edited by: Maul555 on 27/06/2011 20:37:41 If your listening CCP, just be honest with us. We love eve! I have been plexing recently but would be willing to re-sub if you guys really need it! I would even buy some stupid pants if you price it reasonably... plexing or subbing makes no difference whatsoever to CCP' revenue Actually, PLEXing is a big issue. A lot of people buy Plexes and then hold onto them instead of liquidating them in-game to be able to pay subs for the unforseeable future without actually having to pay money. This is a problem because that profit from plexes is realized on the books for that month, then they spend it as either "extra" money or as part of a sub amount, however, when it comes time for that person/people to redeem those plexes, they end up having to take the hit that month or year because it was already pre-paid. If they have a lot of these, they end up having far less income in the months they have to honor the plexes as opposed to when they received the funds for the plexes. Monthly subs are fairly straightforward, plexes can, if enough are redeemed at once, cause a huge hole where they aren't receiving any monthly income from that person/players. yes ... all very true and absolutely sod all to do with my statement (hint, i was rebutting the assertion that paying with subs instead of grinding for plexes would increase CCP's revenue)
The Pteradactyl	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:07:00 - [129] Originally by: Toawa Originally by: The Pteradactyl A lot of retail businesses sell gift cards. They do this because on average (I work in this industry) just over 5% of all gift card purchases never get redeemed. You get money immediately (for reinvestment etc) and 5% of those cards never come back for product. PLEX is similar. If the PLEX is sitting in someones hangar and that person leaves suddenly for whatever IRL reason. The PLEX just sits there and EVE already has the profit. Of course, I can only speak for the US, but in many states unclaimed gift card money has to be turned over to the state after five years or so (it varies), which then holds it in case it is claimed. Of course, many stores would put a monthly fee on the card balance to avoid that, except now there are states which have forbidden the practice. Are you referring to debit type cards? What you are saying is true of anything with a Visa/Mastercard/Other company logo on it. The card you bought at the GAP does not provide such features.
Anderling	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:10:00 - [130] I wonder if Greece owes Icland Banks alot of Money! ... But if i understand this correctly ...28th October CCP will be insolvent!! So this may be the last year of EvE.... I better not buy to much Plex ...or i could sit with a worthless item at the end of the year!

Holy One Quiet.Storm Frater Adhuc Excessum	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:11:00 - [131] Originally by: Maul555 I do not want to put CCP between a rock and a hard place just for our own wants. I just want them to start acting right again. All else will follow... Hoo ****ing ra! BBQ makes me hungry for more...
Icecold Spacebeer	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:11:00 - [132] Originally by: SciWolf JUST RAISE THE SUB. THAT IS ALL. OR A DONATE BUTTON FFS. Noooo, they don¦t get away with this so quickly. I like the idea of an investment group and won¦t have a problem investing a few $. I¦m pretty sure the EVE playerbase could easily afford to save the company or even buy a big part of it. But it would include some serious ass kicking in CCPs senior management meeting room, the one or other manager looking for a new job and a "communications 101" crash course for Hilmar, Zulu and the whole bunch.
Ibram Sedingway	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:12:00 - [133] Originally by: Obviously Confidential It is insane to develop three games at the same time. WoD and DUST are two risky projects with highly dubious commercial prospects and that require large amounts of investment. Coming from the same company that has recently failed at simple internet forums and keeps on neglecting its main revenue generator, that is being used as a milking cow / golden goose instead of being perceived as a real opportunity for growth. Their best source of organic and sustainable growth is being gambled for some risky crap that I think will end up as not one, but two commercial disasters - if ever released. Instead of growing with their feet on the ground from a small and solid base, CCP decided to shoot for the moon and chase after the :bigbux: markets. Let's hope all is not lost in this folly. The real opportunity is EVE! Stop being blinded by greedy megalomania. The CEO should really stop attending business gaming conventions and just play more EVE. QFT QFT Its insane for CCP to think that DUST is going to be good. They picked the PS3, first round of fail right there. They picked First Person Shooter Genere. Second round of fail right there; good luck competing with Battlefield 3 in a few months from now. 3rd round of failure; if Incarna is any indication of what CCP can do with graphics, then they have another thing coming to them when DUST goes live.
Kirkland Langue	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:14:00 - [134] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Obviously Confidential The CEO should really stop attending business gaming conventions and just play more EVE. Lot of wisdom in that This is exactly the right answer. EVE has been unlike any other MMO previously - that is, until the introduction of this crappy new currency. I'm not even sure why I continue to post.. maybe I still have some faint hope that CCP will backpedal and start fixing their crap instead of playing some tune that sounds good to the investors. Many.. MANY EVE players would be more than happy to pay a higher monthly fee if the game was improved, instead of the P2W system that CCP is clearly aiming towards. Unfortunately, I sorta think that EVE is dying and beyond the point of no return.
Ray Butts Minmatar Sniggerdly	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:15:00 - [135] I been playing for 8 years. Why should I pay more for a game thats only fun when playing with your allaince. And ccp got them selfs in this mess, but trying to make some fps that is going to fail hard. Stick to eve ccp. Stop the greed. Hilmar has to GO
Benri Konpaku	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:16:00 - [136] Originally by: Randaltor Originally by: Benri Konpaku I'm really disappointed at CCP for misunderstanding PLEX income as an extra income. For the most part you are right.. however I think, if there's a difference between the cost of a plex vs cost of subscription, then they make a slight profit. Also it's possible that PLEX never get used.. in which case , it can be claimed as profit. For example, remember that 75 plexes that got destroyed in Jita. that's purre profit ! :) Good point, that is indeed an extra profit on every PLEX sale. Though on the other hand it would be too much of a gamble for me to bet on unused PLEXes for projections, so that would probably be better considered as an extra just in case.
Holy One Quiet.Storm Frater Adhuc Excessum	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:16:00 - [137] Originally by: Kirkland Langue Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Obviously Confidential The CEO should really stop attending business gaming conventions and just play more EVE. Lot of wisdom in that This is exactly the right answer. EVE has been unlike any other MMO previously - that is, until the introduction of this crappy new currency. I'm not even sure why I continue to post.. maybe I still have some faint hope that CCP will backpedal and start fixing their crap instead of playing some tune that sounds good to the investors. Many.. MANY EVE players would be more than happy to pay a higher monthly fee if the game was improved, instead of the P2W system that CCP is clearly aiming towards. Unfortunately, I sorta think that EVE is dying and beyond the point of no return. Seriously, I think Hilmar and co. have probably spent more hours playing eve than I did getting my Phd. BBQ makes me hungry for more...
DeODokktor Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:18:00 - [138] Dont think it's odd for a company to run in the red, most MMORPG's that have given details were made with the view that for every years worth of input will be repaid within 1 month of the retail release. CCP's books shouldnt be in the black when developing these games, If the books are in the black then they are doing things too slowly. If you strip out Dust and Vamp2012 then the books look healty. If these projects drag ccp down too much all they have to do is give the boot to 400/500 staff working on those projects and they are then back in the good (on a month to month basic). ----------- Never Forget the joy of finding a main to link to a scammer alt. N-y-p-h-u-r ! !
Benri Konpaku	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:19:00 - [139] Fraud is not nice outside of the game. Even less when it can cause the servers to shut down or go to other company.
Toawa EVE Mercantile Exchange Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:21:00 - [140] Originally by: The Pteradactyl Of course, I can only speak for the US, but in many states unclaimed gift card money has to be turned over to the state after five years or so (it varies), which then holds it in case it is claimed. Of course, many stores would put a monthly fee on the card balance to avoid that, except now there are states which have forbidden the practice. Are you referring to debit type cards? What you are saying is true of anything with a Visa/Mastercard/Other company logo on it. The card you bought at the GAP, or the PLEX you bought from CCP does not provide such features. Plus since there is no two-way transfer of PLEX (IE PLEX for real money) they don't need to reserve that cash for anything. If they did offer PLEX for real money transfer it would create a whole myriad of sticky situations especially taxes. It would be like chips at a casino, the government would come calling and people would accrue PLEX to sell for real money as a profession (making RMT easier and more legal). Not the intended idea. As I said, it varies from state to state, but it does include store/company level cards in those states. I know that because they were talking about it before the Visa/Mastercard prepaid cards became a big thing. And I never said that the same would apply to PLEX (it's not even in the US), I'm saying that it might not have been a bad idea for CCP to bank it somewhere safe instead of spending it immediately.

coolzero Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:23:00 - [141] quote from failheap explains it pretty well ..... CCP is making an accounting profit but is burning $8.4M a year. This is because of how accounting treats research and development costs for new products. They have $11M in the bank, have to repay a loan of $11.8M at the end of October, and will spend about $8M more on salaries than they take in in cash for the year. With no new loans or financing they will end the year at -$8M in their bank account. So that means they would be bankrupt October 28th. If they roll over the loan they well have $3M in the bank and still be burning cash at $2M per quarter. Which means they go bankrupt May 15th 2012 with no other new money or serious spending cutbacks. ..... Jack of all trades, master of none...
Entity X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:24:00 - [142] Originally by: DeODokktor Dont think it's odd for a company to run in the red, most MMORPG's that have given details were made with the view that for every years worth of input will be repaid within 1 month of the retail release. CCP's books shouldnt be in the black when developing these games, If the books are in the black then they are doing things too slowly. If you strip out Dust and Vamp2012 then the books look healty. If these projects drag ccp down too much all they have to do is give the boot to 400/500 staff working on those projects and they are then back in the good (on a month to month basic). The first part makes sense. the latter does not. They cannot dump WoD (it's too tied with incarna, which is the same technology and has the same people working on it). They cannot dump Dust because it's past the point of no return, financially speaking. Cutting employee count by 400 will set the company back 6 years and basically forfeit all the cash poured into WoD and Dust. How do you think investors will respond? That's right, they pull out, and I wouldn't blame them. TLDR: They're stuck between a rock and a hard place. _ Got Item? \| EVE API? \| Cache?
The Pteradactyl	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:25:00 - [143] Originally by: Toawa I'm saying that it might not have been a bad idea for CCP to bank it somewhere safe instead of spending it immediately. Regardless of whether they'll ever need to cover the value of their PLEX (they won't) I can agree with this statement. It is always a good idea to have some cash on hand.
spackles Ibsol	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:26:00 - [144] Originally by: ddogg Originally by: Yarrrrrhh Edited by: Yarrrrrhh on 27/06/2011 19:22:51 Someone got their hands on the latest annual report of CCP. You can check it out yourself here. CCP is a profitable company but it looks like it is having some cash flow problems because development costs for Dust and WoD are high. You can read an analysis of their situation here. The will have to repay a large loan later this year which will require most of their cash assets therefore they'd have to take another loan or sell parts of their company. For that to be feasible though CCP has to show that it's making a profit and apparently they're trying to use MT to make their cash flow problem look less serious. Which explains pretty much everything that CCP has done, said and hinted at so far. TL;DR Dust and WoD are burning too much of CCPs cash and therefore they need to at least show that MT can work in EVE so they can get their hands on fresh cash from loans/equity deals. would be a shame to see the finest mmo ever made burned to finance new projects. ccp should have organised separate revenue streams for long term development, still easy to say in hind site. Hope they get it all sorted and don't have to sellout to one of the big companies to survive. Agreed it would bew really sad to see th eonly Adults MMO on market die. None will ever make another one, because EVE is only real MMO to ever make it for so long. SWTOR forums are laughingly stating thousands of EVE players are migrating to play swtor. I couldn't stop laughing. When I made it clear to them that EVE players like to pvp an tor has none, the fanbois all reported me, I now have a 6 day ban for "insighting".... But as for EVE,I am only a fisherman so I dont understand finance on this level, I can only hope they manage to fix things.
Bruce Svedker	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:27:00 - [145] So if CCP goes bankrupt and dispands, would they reform as CCPdot and buy EVE from themselves?
RC Denton	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:28:00 - [146] Originally by: Entity Originally by: DeODokktor Dont think it's odd for a company to run in the red, most MMORPG's that have given details were made with the view that for every years worth of input will be repaid within 1 month of the retail release. CCP's books shouldnt be in the black when developing these games, If the books are in the black then they are doing things too slowly. If you strip out Dust and Vamp2012 then the books look healty. If these projects drag ccp down too much all they have to do is give the boot to 400/500 staff working on those projects and they are then back in the good (on a month to month basic). The first part makes sense. the latter does not. They cannot dump WoD (it's too tied with incarna, which is the same technology and has the same people working on it). They cannot dump Dust because it's past the point of no return, financially speaking. Cutting employee count by 400 will set the company back 6 years and basically forfeit all the cash poured into WoD and Dust. How do you think investors will respond? That's right, they pull out, and I wouldn't blame them. TLDR: They're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Dust is definitely past the point of no return. But I disagree about WOD. They could certainly postpone it, or drop it all together. I do think Incarna is a beta test for WOD tech, but since they haven't hyped WOD up that much they should be able to push the pause button on it and drop some headcount. Since they're not, they're either not that worried about what's on the financial statement (I.E. They've got it taken care of), or they have some info that we don't such as Dust will release before then or whatnot.
Holy One Quiet.Storm Frater Adhuc Excessum	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:29:00 - [147] Originally by: Bruce Svedker So if CCP goes bankrupt and dispands, would they reform as CCPdot and buy EVE from themselves? /thread o7 BBQ makes me hungry for more...
gdjghjhgjfh Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:29:00 - [148] what I see after costs, subs adding $$, and employee stock/pay is $11,000,000 surplus. Whats the problem?
Mindseamstress Gallente Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:31:00 - [149] Eve standalone could probably be worth around $300-500mil. It's unlikely CCP would be forced into default and restructuring given the long term cash flow profile of its core MMO, regardless of short-term cash flow issues (after all if the other games bomb, they can just fire a large chunk of personnel). As far as I can see there is little actual downside here for player. Just uncertainly... Shame though that all this development cash wasn't deployed to build the Eve Universe. Very disappointing in fact and explains a lot. Mindseamstress Chief Executive Office Jovian Labs
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:32:00 - [150] Originally by: Lug Thorne So really their short term financial future depends on keeping Eve going? Looks like they need to repay 11 mil by or on 10-28-11. With an profit of 5-6 mil a year, have fun with that. 80 dollar monocle indeed. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.

Graic Valente Gallente Valente Galactic Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:33:00 - [151] Puts the SOE insta-denial in a little bit more context methinks.
The Pteradactyl	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:33:00 - [152] Worst possible scenario is that Dust fails badly, staff cutting causes WOD to be pushed back years until it becomes irrelevant and eventually dropped. EVE staff(and other costs) are gutted and EVE has to operate with little updating for an extended period of time. At this point I would fear a sale to a bigger fish.
Erichk Knaar Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:34:00 - [153] ITT: Internet financial experts with deep understanding of the games business.
Cmdr Zander	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:34:00 - [154] great idea... they practically invested too much money without success and they are killing their cash cow (EVE) trying to repay their mistakes so they can fail even more. EPIC FAIL
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:36:00 - [155] Originally by: gdjghjhgjfh what I see after costs, subs adding $$, and employee stock/pay is $11,000,000 surplus. Whats the problem? The fact that they have a $11,800,000 loan repayment coming up in October.
Tahnil GNADE Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:38:00 - [156] This community puzzles me. You're falling for a mud campaign of some disgruntled employees and bitter veterans, who use the first suitable moment for an all-out attack against CCP. On top the amateur media like failheap and evenews24 publish every piece of stupidity and half-truth, just for their 15 minutes of fame. And everybody seems to tune in by trying to find the next sensational interpretation or half truth. As of this moment, you're destroying the very foundations of this community in some kind of lust for doom. This is malicious gossip, even if some bits of truth can be found in this discussion. This is insane.
Vincentus	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:39:00 - [157] Originally by: gdjghjhgjfh what I see after costs, subs adding $$, and employee stock/pay is $11,000,000 surplus. Whats the problem? Answers: Originally by: Vincentus Edited by: Vincentus on 27/06/2011 20:44:36 Edited by: Vincentus on 27/06/2011 20:44:04 Very interesting read. Had been looking for this but could only find some basic 2008 figures. After a quick glance, I'd say the most telling things are that (in no particular order): - revenue gone up with 6M, to 57M - the called in the partly paid shares last year, adding another 16M in cash (without it, they would have negative cash of 5M...) - their liabilities are 4M higher than their assets, while last year they had a surplus of 6M in assets (note that by far the highest asset is development) - Salaries risen by 8M, average number of positions for 2010 doesn't even take into account all the new employees (558 vs 603), so are probably even higher this year. - 23M in development cost, which is 50% of their revenue Strapped for cash?
Graic Valente Gallente Valente Galactic Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:39:00 - [158] Originally by: Erichk Knaar ITT: Internet financial experts with deep understanding of the games business. I worked for a finance company for ten years and have been playing computer games for around 25 years with a brief stint working at a gaming company. So you are correct. ;)
Mindseamstress Gallente Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:42:00 - [159] Originally by: diaufop Edited by: diaufop on 27/06/2011 22:38:44 Originally by: gdjghjhgjfh what I see after costs, subs adding $$, and employee stock/pay is $11,000,000 surplus. Whats the problem? The fact that they have a $11,800,000 loan repayment coming up in October. I think a lot of the :doom: in this thread is blown out of proportion, but this is more than likely the root cause of the massive panic from CCP when people mass-unsubscribed over the weekend. If the status quo had carried on, not a problem. But losing any substantial number of subs could put them into financial problems, hence the emergency meeting with CSM and likely (lies) backpedalling over pay-to-win. They can't afford to lose too many subs without investors asking hard questions. True, if the outlook for Eve is stable though you just roll over the loan. It's no big deal - cos do it all the time. Except... credit is still tight now and with Greek sov debt issues looming the refinancing could coincide with credit crunch nr 2. Mindseamstress Chief Executive Office Jovian Labs
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:42:00 - [160] Originally by: Tahnil stupidity and half-truth You are aware that these are CCP's official books, coming from Iceland's equivalent of the IRS? If ther are any half-truths in this document, they're coming from CCP themselves.

Smoking Blunts	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:44:00 - [161] Originally by: Tahnil This community puzzles me. You're falling for a mud campaign of some disgruntled employees and bitter veterans, who use the first suitable moment for an all-out attack against CCP. On top the amateur media like failheap and evenews24 publish every piece of stupidity and half-truth, just for their 15 minutes of fame. And everybody seems to tune in by trying to find the next sensational interpretation or half truth. As of this moment, you're destroying the very foundations of this community in some kind of lust for doom. This is malicious gossip, even if some bits of truth can be found in this discussion. This is insane. thought the stuffs on en24 have been confimed by ccp. in a blog,might be wrong about that one though... ccp need to get there heads out of there ass and relise that unless they take steps to fix the broken expansion (they said CQ would be optional, and it dam well should be)and confirm MT will not lead to in game advantages. there cash cow is gonna dry up. ccp are the ones distroying the very foundations of this community
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:45:00 - [162] Originally by: Mindseamstress True, if the outlook for Eve is stable though you just roll over the loan. It's no big deal - cos do it all the time. Except... credit is still tight now and with Greek sov debt issues looming the refinancing could coincide with credit crunch nr 2. Yeah, if the subs number had remained stable (or even seen a bit of an increase due to a much-awaited expansion), I believe CCP would have no problem rolling over the loan. In fact, I personally expect them to be able to work out a deal even if they do lose a few thousand subs. But this thread is supposed to be about :doom: so....there is a chance that this could go catastrophically badly.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:46:00 - [163] Don't count chickens before they hatched. If WoD / Dust don't fail they'll probably be in the green. So to make any sort of substantial analysis you'd have to wait and see how they perform. If anything, the report shows that the Eve community is paying for a whole bunch of **** that isn't Eve. You make up your own mind about that.
Vincentus	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:46:00 - [164] Originally by: Mindseamstress Originally by: diaufop Edited by: diaufop on 27/06/2011 22:38:44 Originally by: gdjghjhgjfh what I see after costs, subs adding $$, and employee stock/pay is $11,000,000 surplus. Whats the problem? The fact that they have a $11,800,000 loan repayment coming up in October. I think a lot of the :doom: in this thread is blown out of proportion, but this is more than likely the root cause of the massive panic from CCP when people mass-unsubscribed over the weekend. If the status quo had carried on, not a problem. But losing any substantial number of subs could put them into financial problems, hence the emergency meeting with CSM and likely (lies) backpedalling over pay-to-win. They can't afford to lose too many subs without investors asking hard questions. True, if the outlook for Eve is stable though you just roll over the loan. It's no big deal - cos do it all the time. Except... credit is still tight now and with Greek sov debt issues looming the refinancing could coincide with credit crunch nr 2. Well, no, they wouldn't just roll over the lone, because the companies costs are way higher than what is coming in in cash. They only state a profit because of some accounting rules (technical), they are actually burning 8M+ per year. You have to put on a very good show with lots of love for investors to get them to finance that.
Dero Grey	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:48:00 - [165] I'm wondering, If CCP doesn't make things right with the upset player base couldn't the players with stockpiled PLEX's turn around and hand them out like crazy to people who would use them for game time to try and effect CCP's sub income? That could turn out really bad and basically bankrupt them right?
Larissa Sunsorrow	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:48:00 - [166] from the other forum: Quote: Fairly bog standard set of IFRS accounts however there are some very interesting things going on here. CCP have made reasonable profits for each of the last two years, $5.4m and $6.0m. They have also managed to increase their cash reserves by about $6.5m during 2010. Also they have settled a loan that was hanging over their heads. Not too bad at first glance. Alarm bells start ringing to me on page 21 (I must admit that I skimmed the first few pages as numbers confuse me sometimes - reading the notes to accounts is often much more interesting). CCP are spending around $30m on staff costs and capitalising more than half of them circa $16m. What does this mean? It means that any capitalised costs are being dumped into the balance sheet and not being immediately recognised in the profit and loss acount. This in itself isn't illegal by earmarking it as research and development cost. But it is a whopping amount. I then turned my attention back to the balance sheet. These R&D assets total $54m and are being released to the P&L over four years. "Amortization of capitalized development cost in 2010 is almost exclusively due to EVE Online" - presumably this represents the investment in Incarna/Dust. Now the catch with these kind of capitalised labour costs is that an impairment test must be done every year. Sounds more technical than it is; in practice it means that if a project is no longer viable then the company would no longer be entitled to carry on its balance sheet any capitalised costs. If this were to happen to CCP, then the consequences would be disastrous all those profits would be wiped out and the company would be technically insolvent. So it does take a lot to imagine what kind of pressure the auditors would exert (if they have any integrity) once subscriber numbers start dropping... I turned my attention back to the cashflow statement. The company's operating cash flow is actually negative. The cash it has generated during the year has mainly come from new share issues. In fact the loan appears to have been settled via some kind of stock issue. It's all very well having $11m of cash in the bank but it you are ****ing it away at $7.4m per year you arent going to be in business long. So without being able to see what has happened so far in 2011, I would say alot is riding on the success of the Incarna and Dust 514. It would be interesting to see how much, if anything, Sony have paid for the exclusive licensing of Dust. If Incarna fails and/or if Dust gets delayed then it could be curtains for CCP.
Erinyes Nazgul	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:48:00 - [167] Looks like they are doing really well. They have Dust coming out in a year plus whenever WoD is released.... 2 upcoming games and relatively little debt comparatively, that's awesome...
Mister Smithington	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:49:00 - [168] This actually makes a lot of sense. If the thread keeping track of cancelled accounts is anywhere near accurate, my sloppy math says CCP needs to sell 1.6 monocles per hour, every day of every month for as long as those accounts would have been subbed. That's more monocles per hour than they sold in their initial offering, according to Hilmar's email (52 monocles in 40 hours). In other words, their current MT model cost them more money in cancelled subs than they're making on sales. Restating for Emphasis: CCP knows their current MT model has failed. This brings the emergency CSM meeting into a whole new light. Hopefully the focus of this meeting will be how to bring those subs back (and I have a strong hunch that most of them will resub if CCP gets their act together), and what they can offer for MT that will be in high demand, that won't break the sandbox or be otherwise game effecting (gold ammo), and what price it can be sold at such that it will sell in mass quantities. The CSM and the community has CCP by the balls. We can bail out CCP, but only if they show us a product we're interested in consuming. Also, a quick note on the plex issue: Because Plex is a legalized form of RMT, the limiting factor is the isk demand of those willing to pay real money for it. Even if every plex were redeemed tonight, tomorrow there would be more on the market so long as the Isk demand still exists. CCP doesn't have to worry too much about that plex revenue being redeemed at some point in the future, because even if it is, it only opens room in the market for more.
Mindseamstress Gallente Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:51:00 - [169] Originally by: Vincentus Originally by: Mindseamstress Originally by: diaufop Edited by: diaufop on 27/06/2011 22:38:44 Originally by: gdjghjhgjfh what I see after costs, subs adding $$, and employee stock/pay is $11,000,000 surplus. Whats the problem? The fact that they have a $11,800,000 loan repayment coming up in October. I think a lot of the :doom: in this thread is blown out of proportion, but this is more than likely the root cause of the massive panic from CCP when people mass-unsubscribed over the weekend. If the status quo had carried on, not a problem. But losing any substantial number of subs could put them into financial problems, hence the emergency meeting with CSM and likely (lies) backpedalling over pay-to-win. They can't afford to lose too many subs without investors asking hard questions. True, if the outlook for Eve is stable though you just roll over the loan. It's no big deal - cos do it all the time. Except... credit is still tight now and with Greek sov debt issues looming the refinancing could coincide with credit crunch nr 2. Well, no, they wouldn't just roll over the lone, because the companies costs are way higher than what is coming in in cash. They only state a profit because of some accounting rules (technical), they are actually burning 8M+ per year. You have to put on a very good show with lots of love for investors to get them to finance that. It's normal to be cash flow negative when you develop software. The 8m they burn a year can also be axed at any time since they just have to downsize. What investors look at is growth and value creation. Creditors will to a great degree do the same but may collateralise their lending with co assets or shares. Eve is worth a fair bit (maybe $300-500m) so 8m is no big deal in the grand scheme of things. Mindseamstress Chief Executive Office Jovian Labs
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:53:00 - [170] Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 27/06/2011 22:54:26 Originally by: Holy One Seriously, I think Hilmar and co. have probably spent more hours playing eve than I did getting my Phd. Maybe they stopped, and lost sight of it? Paying their own subs too would be helpful, get the full customer experience. Hell, rant at CCP as an alt and wait for some feed back. Henry V, the night before battle, in camp as a commoner - He may have had better perception about _very predictable behavior_. My faith in CCP will return SoonÖ We'll watch what you do not what you say.

Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:54:00 - [171] Originally by: Cipher Jones Originally by: Lug Thorne So really their short term financial future depends on keeping Eve going? Looks like they need to repay 11 mil by or on 10-28-11. With an profit of 5-6 mil a year, have fun with that. 80 dollar monocle indeed. If you check the huge PR, the leaked mail stating how "Incarna = best patch EVER" and all the other positive spin, you can only understand that they asked for another financing and want to show the perspective investors tangible and visible "results" shown as the best thing ever. They NEED to show off Incarna as good, they NEED to make it compulsory, it's all the guarantee they can show to potential new investors. Auditing \| Research \| 3rd Party \| Collateral Holding \| EvE RL Charity
Lyra Blazing	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:54:00 - [172] Sometimes i hate to be right but it seems CCP are going to be broke. And they only have them self to blame for :) http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1534341 Hopefully some good company is buying the eve code from whats left from CCP. Maybe then we might be able to resub.
Asmodeus Et'Mort	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:55:00 - [173] So one question to all you accounting boffins out there, Isnt plex a liability to the company that should be included in these figures? Havent CCP already been paid RL cash thats been accounted for in these figures but have yet to provide the service? So Im just asking if the value of plex in the game counts as an official accounting liability? Does that make it better or worse? sorry im an historian i have no concept of figures other than dates!
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:55:00 - [174] Originally by: Tahnil This community puzzles me. You're falling for a mud campaign of some disgruntled employees and bitter veterans, who use the first suitable moment for an all-out attack against CCP. On top the amateur media like failheap and evenews24 publish every piece of stupidity and half-truth, just for their 15 minutes of fame. And everybody seems to tune in by trying to find the next sensational interpretation or half truth. As of this moment, you're destroying the very foundations of this community in some kind of lust for doom. This is malicious gossip, even if some bits of truth can be found in this discussion. This is insane. So you read the financial report then? Yes/No Circle one. Thought so, thanks for your opinion. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
kestrael nanahara Caldari Wrecking Shots Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:57:00 - [175] Originally by: The Pteradactyl Worst possible scenario is that Dust fails badly, staff cutting causes WOD to be pushed back years until it becomes irrelevant and eventually dropped. EVE staff(and other costs) are gutted and EVE has to operate with little updating for an extended period of time. At this point I would fear a sale to a bigger fish. You know ive been an apologetic for CCP for a long time. But im going to say something... EVE HAS BEEN OPERATING WITH LITTLE UPDATING FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME.
Mindseamstress Gallente Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:57:00 - [176] Originally by: Asmodeus Et'Mort So one question to all you accounting boffins out there, Isnt plex a liability to the company that should be included in these figures? Havent CCP already been paid RL cash thats been accounted for in these figures but have yet to provide the service? So Im just asking if the value of plex in the game counts as an official accounting liability? Does that make it better or worse? sorry im an historian i have no concept of figures other than dates! It is an "accrual" technically speaking, i.e. cash received for services not rendered. A liability should be recognised on the balance sheet for this. Mindseamstress Chief Executive Office Jovian Labs
Soji Kanagawa Caldari 0uter Ring Excavations	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:57:00 - [177] I say cancel WOD and Dust...I would much rather they focus 100% of their time on the EVE Universe anyway :)
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:59:00 - [178] Originally by: Tahnil This community puzzles me. As of this moment, you're destroying the very foundations of this community in some kind of lust for doom. This is malicious gossip, even if some bits of truth can be found in this discussion. This is insane. No, this is what EvE teaches people to become. Lusty bast4rds. Cold, harsh, hypercapitalistic world where everyone are out to get YOU. So here, they got it. Auditing \| Research \| 3rd Party \| Collateral Holding \| EvE RL Charity
Aleria Angelis Eleutherian Guard	Posted - 2011.06.27 22:59:00 - [179] Wow thanks for the information, this would explain the way CCP's been acting lately. If it came to selling WoD or Dust I can see why they've chosen MTs, like other people have said; a little transparency and honestly would have gone along way.
Markus Jome	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:07:00 - [180] I don't see the connection between the Vanity Store and CCPs financial situation. It's easy to say "they sell monocles because they need money", but noone in CCP could think that they could sell even remotely enough monocles to solve their financial problems (8 mio loss per year -> 100k+ monocles per year).

Zverkice	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:07:00 - [181] Originally by: Obviously Confidential It is insane to develop three games at the same time. WoD and DUST are two risky projects with highly dubious commercial prospects and that require large amounts of investment. Coming from the same company that has recently failed at simple internet forums and keeps on neglecting its main revenue generator, that is being used as a milking cow / golden goose instead of being perceived as a real opportunity for growth. Their best source of organic and sustainable growth is being gambled for some risky crap that I think will end up as not one, but two commercial disasters - if ever released. Instead of growing with their feet on the ground from a small and solid base, CCP decided to shoot for the moon and chase after the :bigbux: markets. Let's hope all is not lost in this folly. The real opportunity is EVE! Stop being blinded by greedy megalomania. The CEO should really stop attending business gaming conventions and just play more EVE. THIS
Tel'Kar'Tir	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:07:00 - [182] Cut WoD, cut the least profitable item. Dust is within a year of release. WoD is at least 2 or 3 ears off. If it's less than 50% done cut it to save expenses.
Vincentus	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:09:00 - [183] Originally by: Mindseamstress It's normal to be cash flow negative when you develop software. The 8m they burn a year can also be axed at any time since they just have to downsize. What investors look at is growth and value creation. Creditors will to a great degree do the same but may collateralise their lending with co assets or shares. Eve is worth a fair bit (maybe $300-500m) so 8m is no big deal in the grand scheme of things. That you have negative cashflow for a certain product: yes. That if you are a small company with only 1 product: yes. If you have a successfull business that brings in 55M in cash each year: not so much. They have burned through all of their liquid assets they had build up over the years, they have called in 16M from investors to pay their bills, they had 11M in the bank in December 2010 but need to pay back a loan in October 2011 of a little over that amount, and they are still losing at least 8M a year. Sure, if WoD and Dust are a big success and (just as important) CCP can release them in time, then no worries. The thing is, that's a pretty big gamble to make, and investors know it. At this moment CCP has no assets (when you deduct liabilities and don't count development costs of WoD and Dust as assets, since these are only assets if they are a success), big bills and a huge loan coming due. I don't know about you, but I would be a little worried if that was my financial situation.
uncloned	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:11:00 - [184] they could do some "buy plex for helping ccp first to make eve a big "pay to win" of course, it will not provide them enougnt money, but i hope they will find another solution than partially destroying eve for helping their other game devellopement..
Govinda Sertan	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:12:00 - [185] That report explain everything... MT is only one of the main issue. The second one is the fact they dont care about their game anymore (because of some really stupids placements). CCP is actually focus on 2 things : 1. WoD and DUST developpement. 2. Milking Eve gamers till they are dry, because the above point is requesting more money. So yes. Eve is basically a farm now. And we are the cows. Consider that all the money that gamers are putting in Eve since 2 years, is only used for developping other games and implementing AUR-based economy. That's the reason i am mad. The game actually needs lots of attention due to tons of bugs, lag, and lacks of upgrades. And it wont get it any time soon, considering CCP dont care anymore.
Terminal Insanity Minmatar Convex Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:12:00 - [186] Originally by: Yarrrrrhh Another very personal note: Thanks to the EVE sandbox for teaching me how to do stuff like this. Learned how to run a corporation in EVE, done the same IRL after that, now I get a shot at helping save CCP's own ass. i lol'd. No seriously, you learned how to run a corporation.... in eve online? Seriously? And you took the knowledge from running eve corps and applied it to real life? I hope this is a troll, because lol. also: Originally by: Terminal Insanity Should random videogamers be dishing out financial suggestions to a company that has managed to stay in business from the same product for over 7 years? Probably not. The last thing CCP needs is a bunch of spoiled brats telling them how to run their company. They've been successful so far. If you don't think they have, then what the **** are you still doing here?
Vincentus	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:12:00 - [187] Originally by: Asmodeus Et'Mort So one question to all you accounting boffins out there, Isnt plex a liability to the company that should be included in these figures? Havent CCP already been paid RL cash thats been accounted for in these figures but have yet to provide the service? So Im just asking if the value of plex in the game counts as an official accounting liability? Does that make it better or worse? sorry im an historian i have no concept of figures other than dates! Plexes are counted as deferred income, no liability whatsoever (unless everyone would at the same time unsub and only pay with plexes from then on, but that could only last a month or so anyway :) )
Takseen	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:14:00 - [188] I remember we were taught back in accounting classes that having greater current liabilities compared to your current assets was a very bad sign. CCP have $19.6m in current assets, and $25.3m in current liabilities. Not good. Not to mention the fact that a whopping $54m of their $63m non-current assets are made of up development costs.
Mindseamstress Gallente Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:17:00 - [189] Originally by: Vincentus Originally by: Mindseamstress It's normal to be cash flow negative when you develop software. The 8m they burn a year can also be axed at any time since they just have to downsize. What investors look at is growth and value creation. Creditors will to a great degree do the same but may collateralise their lending with co assets or shares. Eve is worth a fair bit (maybe $300-500m) so 8m is no big deal in the grand scheme of things. That you have negative cashflow for a certain product: yes. That if you are a small company with only 1 product: yes. If you have a successfull business that brings in 55M in cash each year: not so much. They have burned through all of their liquid assets they had build up over the years, they have called in 16M from investors to pay their bills, they had 11M in the bank in December 2010 but need to pay back a loan in October 2011 of a little over that amount, and they are still losing at least 8M a year. Sure, if WoD and Dust are a big success and (just as important) CCP can release them in time, then no worries. The thing is, that's a pretty big gamble to make, and investors know it. At this moment CCP has no assets (when you deduct liabilities and don't count development costs of WoD and Dust as assets, since these are only assets if they are a success), big bills and a huge loan coming due. I don't know about you, but I would be a little worried if that was my financial situation. I would as a shareholder as this could dilute my equity substantially. However Eve is an annuity that is worth a fair bit, so if they want to raise equity capital, they can probably do a private placement without too much trouble. Remember the player base is sticky (presumably) Mindseamstress Chief Executive Office Jovian Labs
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:22:00 - [190] Edited by: diaufop on 27/06/2011 23:23:34 Edited by: diaufop on 27/06/2011 23:22:18 Originally by: Markus Jome Edited by: Markus Jome on 27/06/2011 23:09:16 I don't see the connection between the Vanity Store and CCPs financial situation. It's easy to say "they sell monocles because they need money", but noone in CCP could think that they could sell even remotely enough monocles to solve their financial problems (8 mio loss per year -> 100k+ monocles per year). In other numbers: everyone of the 300k plus subscribers would have to buy stoff worth more than 25 dollar per year. $70 monocles doesn't pay off the big bill in October. $70 monocles - plus rising subscription numbers due to an "awesome" expansion - gives CCP a pretty graph they can show to investors about how much money they stand to make in the future from their cash shop, especially once said pretty graphs start applying to Dust - only 1 year away from launching - and WoD. Winning over investors is far more important than your cash balance in the bank for companies, by and large. And winning over investors is 90% BS and pretty graphs.

Kerrisone	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:25:00 - [191] Originally by: Tel'Kar'Tir Cut WoD, cut the least profitable item. Dust is within a year of release. WoD is at least 2 or 3 ears off. If it's less than 50% done cut it to save expenses. I think WOD has the greater chance of being a hit than Dust does and 'living/growing' longer/larger than Dust. Canceling either is a 'no win' IMO, Dust is close to release and a waste to gut now, can't really sell it as it ties into EVE. WOD is farther off BUT has the better chance of surpassing EVE as a money maker. Originally by: Ghoest Ill watch what you do not what you say.
Portmanteau Gallente CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:26:00 - [192] Originally by: Tahnil This community puzzles me. You're falling for a mud campaign of some disgruntled employees and bitter veterans, who use the first suitable moment for an all-out attack against CCP. On top the amateur media like failheap and evenews24 publish every piece of stupidity and half-truth, just for their 15 minutes of fame. And everybody seems to tune in by trying to find the next sensational interpretation or half truth. As of this moment, you're destroying the very foundations of this community in some kind of lust for doom. This is malicious gossip, even if some bits of truth can be found in this discussion. This is insane. hmm fearless magazine leak - confirmed by CCP Hilmar email - confirmed by CCP CCP annual financial report - matter of public record ... no confirmation needed yes it's all BS and we are just soooo gullible
Tom Peeping	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:27:00 - [193] So... the real issue behind microtransactions, is poor decision making by CCP higherups who are determined to develop too much, without having to go through the usual funding routes.... they want EVE players to pay for it.
Indy Rider Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:30:00 - [194] Now I understand why there was 18 months of nothing. They only have one choice if they want to avoid not being able to pay the $12 million loan back, force out Incarna which as pretty new features to hope for new subs, even if it is bugged to hell which has a MT along side it. Theres nothing to do with "changing the gaming world". They need money, and fast, otherwise they wont have any cash in October.
Vincentus	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:31:00 - [195] Originally by: Mindseamstress Originally by: Vincentus Originally by: Mindseamstress It's normal to be cash flow negative when you develop software. The 8m they burn a year can also be axed at any time since they just have to downsize. What investors look at is growth and value creation. Creditors will to a great degree do the same but may collateralise their lending with co assets or shares. Eve is worth a fair bit (maybe $300-500m) so 8m is no big deal in the grand scheme of things. That you have negative cashflow for a certain product: yes. That if you are a small company with only 1 product: yes. If you have a successfull business that brings in 55M in cash each year: not so much. They have burned through all of their liquid assets they had build up over the years, they have called in 16M from investors to pay their bills, they had 11M in the bank in December 2010 but need to pay back a loan in October 2011 of a little over that amount, and they are still losing at least 8M a year. Sure, if WoD and Dust are a big success and (just as important) CCP can release them in time, then no worries. The thing is, that's a pretty big gamble to make, and investors know it. At this moment CCP has no assets (when you deduct liabilities and don't count development costs of WoD and Dust as assets, since these are only assets if they are a success), big bills and a huge loan coming due. I don't know about you, but I would be a little worried if that was my financial situation. I would as a shareholder as this could dilute my equity substantially. However Eve is an annuity that is worth a fair bit, so if they want to raise equity capital, they can probably do a private placement without too much trouble. Remember the player base is sticky (presumably) I agree that Eve is certainly worth a fair bit, I'd say around 100-150M if valued separately (10x-15x separate annual profits of guestimate 10M in a good financial climate, which we don't have atm, but let's leave that aside for now) and if CCP had no liabilities etc. whatsoever there would certainly be people willing to pay for it, but the thing is that CCP and it's other operations look pretty bad atm., so I would want a big discount as an investor. And since the current shares are already bookvalued at about 50M (equity), which will all go up in air if WoD and Dust fail, I wouldn't be willing to pour a whole lot more into it just like that. I'm not saying CCP is dead, but Hilmar has a lot to worry about...
Portmanteau Gallente CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:32:00 - [196] Originally by: Asmodeus Et'Mort So one question to all you accounting boffins out there, Isnt plex a liability to the company that should be included in these figures? Havent CCP already been paid RL cash thats been accounted for in these figures but have yet to provide the service? So Im just asking if the value of plex in the game counts as an official accounting liability? Does that make it better or worse? sorry im an historian i have no concept of figures other than dates! I was wondering that altho I think we can safely say they aren't going to be liable for all that gametime at once.
Linar Mardolak Minmatar Phlogiston Absorption	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:32:00 - [197] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny And to think of how they could have had help digging themselves out of the hole they dug by just coming forward about it Exactly. By hiding it and lying to the players, they burned their bridge to solvency while standing on it.
Doav Inarvo	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:33:00 - [198] Originally by: Terminal Insanity I just bought a 70 dollar monocle, so their new features definatly seem to be selling ^_^ now what to do with my leftover 2k aur... I think CCP have actualy sold more monacles through people just wanting to troll the forums than through vanity. If there hadnt been such an upoar I don;t think anyone would have brought one, now owning a monocle is the equivalent of sticking 2 fingers up to the EVE community.
Juliette DuBois	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:35:00 - [199] Edited by: Juliette DuBois on 27/06/2011 23:38:15 PLEX acts as gold for EVE economy. It will be hoarded for as long as investors think it will keep its value better than isk (which it will). Of course, if there was an expiration date on it then it would get redeemed asap but I doubt CCP would like that result. About vanity items, might surprise you but often the most desired result you want from aquiring such items or other abilities is to annoy other people. Like emotes of showing middle finger or mooning or whatever rude gesture or sound you can come up with.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:36:00 - [200] Originally by: Doav Inarvo I think CCP have actualy sold more monacles through people just wanting to troll the forums than through vanity. If there hadnt been such an upoar I don;t think anyone would have brought one, now owning a monocle is the equivalent of sticking 2 fingers up to the EVE community. I said exactly the same thing after Hilmar's e-mail was leaked. Of those 52 monocles, 1 was bought by CCP Zinfandel, and 51 were bought by trolls.

Bklyn 1	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:39:00 - [201] If CCP had been honest from the get-go and answered the big yellow question 'no', I'd have bought 3 monocles just to help them. Instead, I'm unsubbed.
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:40:00 - [202] Originally by: Bklyn 1 If CCP had been honest from the get-go and answered the big yellow question 'no' Small correction: If CCP were being honest, the answer to the big yellow question would be "yes".
Jolteon Taylor	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:40:00 - [203] Originally by: stoicfaux Why is the report in English, and why does it use US dollars? Most of the worlds banking reports use USD, same for English, also CCP themselves have stated all their internals are done using English too, not Icelandic.
mechtech SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:40:00 - [204] So CCP must have banked on a linear increase of subscribers (as the first 5 years of the game yielded). Unfortunately, that won't happen with underwhelming expansions like Incarna, Dominion, and Tyrannis. Look at Apocrypha, that's the awesomeness that can happen when CCP really puts all of their effort in an expansion. Then WoD and Dust dev really started and the expansions got worse. Now Eve has to take yet another hit (MT) to support 2 side projects. Great. Seriously, if CCP needs money, the player investment group idea is something I'd be up for. I'd invest 2k USD in CCP, and I actually think it would be a good investment.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:41:00 - [205] Edited by: Miilla on 27/06/2011 23:41:52 October 28th is going to be an interesting date. :) Do we make this a threadnaught and dump the other? I will just leave some links here http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/CCPRoyalsLaugh.jpg http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/StarWarsHelloKittyDarthVaderVanityItemsAlterPlan.jpg http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/CCPMMOofTheYearAward.jpg http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/EveFarmville.jpg http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/IncarnaWarping.jpg http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/CCPGag.jpg http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/CCPHilmarStayTheCourse.jpg http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/CCPPublicRelations.jpg
Takseen	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:41:00 - [206] Its too late for them to cancel Dust 514 now that they've made that deal with Sony. And if they drop development of WoD they'd have to write off whatever part of that $54m development asset as an expense, basically breaking their balance sheet. The latter doesn't even have a release date yet, and I can't imagine how much longer they'll be able to siphon cash from Eve Online to pay for it.
Portmanteau Gallente CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:41:00 - [207] Originally by: Doav Inarvo Originally by: Terminal Insanity I just bought a 70 dollar monocle, so their new features definatly seem to be selling ^_^ now what to do with my leftover 2k aur... I think CCP have actualy sold more monacles through people just wanting to troll the forums than through vanity. If there hadnt been such an upoar I don;t think anyone would have brought one, now owning a monocle is the equivalent of sticking 2 fingers up to the EVE community. while true, it's not very sustainable and doesn't bode well for future monocle sales does it, that and the fact that they are kind of "tarnished" with this whole debacle now
Katrina Cortez	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:42:00 - [208] File mirror link broken. Ambulation... because spaceships don't have wallets.
Senlia Hucel-Ge	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:43:00 - [209] Such a shame that they cannot restructure their debts like anybody else, especially since they have a solid plus when they finish their new products. /facepalm
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:44:00 - [210] So, basically, CCP is a JUNK BOND :)

Maverick2011 Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:44:00 - [211] Cancel WoD because another MMORPG in the market unless revolutionary is bound to fail. The MMORPG market is saturated. Maybe Dust will be profitable though. But raising subscriptions??? When you guys come up with these ideas are you high or using drugs??? Why would someone pay more than the normal subscription fee for a game that offer less each year??? Specially with AAA games like StarWars, Guild Wars and Diablo 3 coming soon (and 2 of them will be FREE OF CHARGE).
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:46:00 - [212] Edited by: Miilla on 27/06/2011 23:49:08 Originally by: Maverick2011 Cancel WoD because another MMORPG in the market unless revolutionary is bound to fail. The MMORPG market is saturated. Maybe Dust will be profitable though. But raising subscriptions??? When you guys come up with these ideas are you high or using drugs??? Why would someone pay more than the normal subscription fee for a game that offer less each year??? Specially with AAA games like StarWars, Guild Wars and Diablo 3 coming soon (and 2 of them will be FREE OF CHARGE). They would have considered all options. RICH monole lovers are going to pay for CCP's greed. Enjoy those monocles richies, and your ships, skills, ammo etc .:) Microtransactions are comming, and comming hard and fast. They have an agressive timetable. CSM cannot bail out the company. MT's are here to stay and agressive. You can rule out Free to Play too. Company/IP yardsale if it fails. Investors might take a good offer if one comes up.
Takseen	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:46:00 - [213] Originally by: Portmanteau Originally by: Asmodeus Et'Mort So one question to all you accounting boffins out there, Isnt plex a liability to the company that should be included in these figures? Havent CCP already been paid RL cash thats been accounted for in these figures but have yet to provide the service? So Im just asking if the value of plex in the game counts as an official accounting liability? Does that make it better or worse? sorry im an historian i have no concept of figures other than dates! I was wondering that altho I think we can safely say they aren't going to be liable for all that gametime at once. Well there's $3.5m of "Deferred Income" from "unrecognized subscription fees" recorded as a current liability, perhaps those are the value of the unredeemed PLEX?
San Severina Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:47:00 - [214] I don't want to be sour or overly negative, but, at this point i don't care what CCP says! I'm more interested in what they do & IMO they have done enough already. Won't be coming back, they can never be trusted again CCP Showing dedicated EvE players the DOOR since 06.21.11. _
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:48:00 - [215] Originally by: Takseen Originally by: Portmanteau Originally by: Asmodeus Et'Mort So one question to all you accounting boffins out there, Isnt plex a liability to the company that should be included in these figures? Havent CCP already been paid RL cash thats been accounted for in these figures but have yet to provide the service? So Im just asking if the value of plex in the game counts as an official accounting liability? Does that make it better or worse? sorry im an historian i have no concept of figures other than dates! I was wondering that altho I think we can safely say they aren't going to be liable for all that gametime at once. Well there's $3.5m of "Deferred Income" from "unrecognized subscription fees" recorded as a current liability, perhaps those are the value of the unredeemed PLEX? Deferred income is also the long term unfullfilled subscriptions (and PLEX unconsumed) yes.
Shadow XII	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:49:00 - [216] Bump. This is critical information.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:50:00 - [217] Edited by: Miilla on 27/06/2011 23:51:07 So, I guess I won't be getting that Titan then?
Ione Hawke	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:51:00 - [218] Originally by: Slymah I would support a "donate" button over MT's It is actually already there and called Aurum. At least, you could view it that way, without to much imagination. In fact it doesn't matter a lot whether you buy NeX stuff from ISK -> PLEX -> Aurum or $$ -> PLEX -> Aurum I think. The first removes PLEX from the game. For which money is already paid and spend by CCP (so the pile of PLEX is actually a bad thing, because if players suddenly en-masse would stop their subscription and start using PLEX then CCP quickly has a problem, which is theoretically possible.). Also it creates demand => higher prices and this demand will increase supply of PLEX. Win for CCP.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:52:00 - [219] Edited by: Miilla on 27/06/2011 23:55:14 Donate buttons? LOL keep smoking that crack pipe. Waste of money, may aswell buy some monocles ya idiots. Giving money to people that fecked you over and wont hesitate to do it again at any oppertunity lol Wise up kids. They issue bonds in the company for loans from creditors. If they want a loan from me, give me some bonds. But CCP is like JUNK BONDS., Pure speculation at this point now lol
DeODokktor Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:55:00 - [220] They will be fine on the 28th.. The time to worry will be when/if they start dumping staff.. If we get a release date for dust or see plugs for it on TV then the worry is off.. I think dust is also slated for spring 2012 and that would not be too bad, any delays and ccp could get hurt by it. So I say we give them till summer or fall 2012, they shouldnt go under before that, but never know ;P.... I still say they could dump staff, polish the turd, and shove stuff out the door as-is.. It's worked for EvE... But the FPS needs to be a good sell else ccp will have trouble. ----------- Never Forget the joy of finding a main to link to a scammer alt. N-y-p-h-u-r ! !

Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:57:00 - [221] Originally by: DeODokktor They will be fine on the 28th.. The time to worry will be when/if they start dumping staff.. If we get a release date for dust or see plugs for it on TV then the worry is off.. I think dust is also slated for spring 2012 and that would not be too bad, any delays and ccp could get hurt by it. So I say we give them till summer or fall 2012, they shouldnt go under before that, but never know ;P.... I still say they could dump staff, polish the turd, and shove stuff out the door as-is.. It's worked for EvE... But the FPS needs to be a good sell else ccp will have trouble. Headcount freeze, anybody who leaves, they close that open headcount. happening now. WoD is overrunning, budget and time, it will continue to do so, the situation will get worse. Dust will probably not meet targets, again a bad situation.
kestrael nanahara Caldari Wrecking Shots Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:01:00 - [222] Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 27/06/2011 23:59:32 Originally by: DeODokktor They will be fine on the 28th.. The time to worry will be when/if they start dumping staff.. If we get a release date for dust or see plugs for it on TV then the worry is off.. I think dust is also slated for spring 2012 and that would not be too bad, any delays and ccp could get hurt by it. So I say we give them till summer or fall 2012, they shouldnt go under before that, but never know ;P.... I still say they could dump staff, polish the turd, and shove stuff out the door as-is.. It's worked for EvE... But the FPS needs to be a good sell else ccp will have trouble. Headcount freeze, anybody who leaves, they close that open headcount. happening now. They will also be taking out more loans, and more bonds will be issued. They could go public but CCP would die on the open market. They would be shorted to hell and back with those financials. WoD is overrunning, budget and time, it will continue to do so, the situation will get worse. Dust will probably not meet targets, again a bad situation. CCP is too high risk of an investment with those current financial reports, if they had Microtranscations SUCCEEDING and A SUBSCRIBER base, that is a different set off books. To be fair they do have pretty good core income ccp will probably have some solvency issues but I dont think they will go bankrupt.
Ione Hawke	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:01:00 - [223] Originally by: Miilla WoD is overrunning, budget and time, it will continue to do so, the situation will get worse. Dust will probably not meet targets, again a bad situation. Nothing new in the games business, thats when bugged products are released early and fail miserably. Next company dies with it.
Svizac Marmotov Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:02:00 - [224] Well it seems that in worst case scenario at least they nailed the names for those 2 projects perfectly.. It's world of darkness and dust in their future.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:05:00 - [225] Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 00:06:38 You also forget there is a recession on, Iceland isnt exactly flowing in cash lol. Getting loans is a harder business these days. Sure they got IP assets and profitability but that could change overnight, and is edging that way. Creditors want to see revenues, they have to produce higher revenues. The only way they can feasibly do that now is MT all the way, with subs. CCP are operating on a too thin cash liquidity
shoot me	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:06:00 - [226] CCP have already made clear that they are not going to listen to their customers so why should we bail them out? This is just more PR spin to quell the rage. I don't see any point in saving Eve Online if it means ruining the game with micro transfers with game breaking non vanity items.
Elrica bloodbane	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:07:00 - [227] newbish accounting question?. If people began turning plex back into gtc's and selling outside of game. How would that effect ccp. If at all ?
Vincentus	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:07:00 - [228] Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Takseen Originally by: Portmanteau Originally by: Asmodeus Et'Mort So one question to all you accounting boffins out there, Isnt plex a liability to the company that should be included in these figures? Havent CCP already been paid RL cash thats been accounted for in these figures but have yet to provide the service? So Im just asking if the value of plex in the game counts as an official accounting liability? Does that make it better or worse? sorry im an historian i have no concept of figures other than dates! I was wondering that altho I think we can safely say they aren't going to be liable for all that gametime at once. Well there's $3.5m of "Deferred Income" from "unrecognized subscription fees" recorded as a current liability, perhaps those are the value of the unredeemed PLEX? Deferred income is also the long term unfullfilled subscriptions (and PLEX unconsumed) yes. Actually, I've been thinking a little bit about this since my earlier post in this thread about this being deferred income, but I don't think they have PLEX filed under deferred income after all. Better yet, I think they don't have it in the books at all. Look at it like this,they already provided the service that PLEX do in the real world. e.a. sell someone something they can then use in the game in whatever way they see fit :handsoff: and this is the only legal liability they have. Since CCP has 100% ownership and legal rights over the game, I don't think they need to book plexes as as liability, it has probably been booked under sales and end of story. I think only long term subscription with a CC or whatever are counted as deferred income. Could be wrong here, but it makes more sense from a legal point of view imo.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:08:00 - [229] Originally by: Elrica bloodbane newbish accounting question?. If people began turning plex back into gtc's and selling outside of game. How would that effect ccp. If at all ? That would be the same as PLEX just outside the game in the form of GTC codes.
Yana Steel	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:10:00 - [230] Oh my god, people saying 'hey lets donate money to CCP'. No matter how much I enjoy this game I'm not that stupid/desperate. Don't be pathetic. Why would you want to encourage such continual failure. Just look at the last few 'Expansions' and the continued inability for CCP to actually fix any of the long term issues associated with the game.

Linar Mardolak Minmatar Phlogiston Absorption	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:12:00 - [231] Originally by: Anna Maziarczyk Originally by: Goauld Baal In other words some one at CCP left the check book open and out on the table and now they want there player base to make up what there lacking HAHAHAH yeah thats not going to happen no kidding. Is EVE really Too Big to Fail? Maybe Iceland will do a Stimulus package to save their thriving MMORPG industry? If countries can Bailout the Airlines and Auto Industry, why not Virtual worlds too. I mean, interweb spaceships are just as vital to national prosperity as say Jeans or Coke? So...Iceland? You know, the bankrupt country? This is who you are expecting to bail out CCP?
Ibram Sedingway	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:12:00 - [232] Originally by: Yana Steel Oh my god, people saying 'hey lets donate money to CCP'. No matter how much I enjoy this game I'm not that stupid/desperate. Don't be pathetic. Why would you want to encourage such continual failure. Just look at the last few 'Expansions' and the continued inability for CCP to actually fix any of the long term issues associated with the game. cognitive dissonnce, they dont want to lose their charachters
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:12:00 - [233] Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 00:13:59 Originally by: Vincentus Actually, I've been thinking a little bit about this since my earlier post in this thread about this being deferred income, but I don't think they have PLEX filed under deferred income after all. Better yet, I think they don't have it in the books at all. Look at it like this,they already provided the service that PLEX do in the real world. e.a. sell someone something they can then use in the game in whatever way they see fit :handsoff: and this is the only legal liability they have. Since CCP has 100% ownership and legal rights over the game, I don't think they need to book plexes as as liability, it has probably been booked under sales and end of story. I think only long term subscription with a CC or whatever are counted as deferred income. Could be wrong here, but it makes more sense from a legal point of view imo. Which is exactly what I said in prior troll threads before all this whoop hah when this raised its head. I said it was a sale of an INGAME Item, end of story. I got trolled to high heaven by Akita T and others lol.
Elrica bloodbane	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:17:00 - [234] Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Elrica bloodbane newbish accounting question?. If people began turning plex back into gtc's and selling outside of game. How would that effect ccp. If at all ? That would be the same as PLEX just outside the game in the form of GTC codes. Yeah I see that but I'm thinking of RMT's deciding eve is dying and converting all their isk to gtc's. Then dumping them on the net cheaply. thus robbing CCP of an income for lets say 2/3 mth's.
EnderCapitalG Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:18:00 - [235] Originally by: Miilla RICH monole lovers are going to pay for CCP's greed. Enjoy those monocles richies, and your ships, skills, ammo etc .:) Anyone I know that has a monocle are those who used the massive backlog of PLEXes that are on the market (and being held by people). Those who are rich have already been buying PLEX, and it hasn't (really) caused a problem. However, gold ammo etc will go quite the opposite way, I'd imagine.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:18:00 - [236] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 28/06/2011 00:19:13 Originally by: Vincentus Actually, I've been thinking a little bit about this since my earlier post in this thread about this being deferred income, but I don't think they have PLEX filed under deferred income after all. Better yet, I think they don't have it in the books at all. Look at it like this,they already provided the service that PLEX do in the real world. e.a. sell someone something they can then use in the game in whatever way they see fit :handsoff: and this is the only legal liability they have. Since CCP has 100% ownership and legal rights over the game, I don't think they need to book plexes as as liability since they can just delete them with a few mouseclicks and noone has the legal right to stop them. It has probably been booked under sales and end of story. I think only long term subscription with a CC or whatever are counted as deferred income. Could be wrong here, but it makes more sense from a legal point of view imo. I agree. I don't think plex is deferred income. I believe GTC is the deferment. When GTC is converted the deferment is ended. Plex is solely a game item that CCP "honors" as game time. However, Plex still has the effect of showing 0 income when it is redeemed for game time. I believe Plex has become a large and looming problem that if there were a flood of plex to magically appear on the market with people redeeming game time, it would probably sink the company ;)
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:20:00 - [237] Originally by: Mr Kidd Originally by: Vincentus Actually, I've been thinking a little bit about this since my earlier post in this thread about this being deferred income, but I don't think they have PLEX filed under deferred income after all. Better yet, I think they don't have it in the books at all. Look at it like this,they already provided the service that PLEX do in the real world. e.a. sell someone something they can then use in the game in whatever way they see fit :handsoff: and this is the only legal liability they have. Since CCP has 100% ownership and legal rights over the game, I don't think they need to book plexes as as liability since they can just delete them with a few mouseclicks and noone has the legal right to stop them. It has probably been booked under sales and end of story. I think only long term subscription with a CC or whatever are counted as deferred income. Could be wrong here, but it makes more sense from a legal point of view imo. I agree. I don't think plex is deferred income. I believe GTC is the deferment. When GTC is converted the deferment is ended. Plex is solely a game item that CCP "honors" as game time. However, Plex still has the effect of showing 0 income when it is redeemed for game time. I believe Plex has become a large and looming problem that if there were a flood of plex to magically appear on the market with people redeeming game time, it would probably since the company ;) PLEX is an ingame item, GTC is a purchase with promise to get game time. Once a GTC is converted to a ingame item (or game time) it is no longer a liability, except the unfullfilled gametime which is a deferred income. I said that in other threads i was in but oh no Akita T said adamintly it is a liability. I got bashed from page to page over it lol.
Josefine Etrange Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:21:00 - [238] Originally by: Xinxua Originally by: Yarrrrrhh Originally by: Lug Thorne So really their short term financial future depends on keeping Eve going? After jeopardizing it with WoD and Dust. That's how it looks to me. Yes sticking to one product line and not expanding into new markets is the best way to expand your company. No canibilizing your core buisness for massive expansion in all direction is the best way to expand your company! (both directions often lead into doom, balance is the key, and sometimes luck and taking risks can make it too) Why a forum in the year 2011 still has no automatic double post merge which can be done even with javascript mostly is beyond my understanding.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:22:00 - [239] Originally by: Josefine Etrange Originally by: Xinxua Originally by: Yarrrrrhh Originally by: Lug Thorne So really their short term financial future depends on keeping Eve going? After jeopardizing it with WoD and Dust. That's how it looks to me. Yes sticking to one product line and not expanding into new markets is the best way to expand your company. No canibilizing your core buisness for massive expansion in all direction is the best way to expand your company! (both directions often lead into doom, balance is the key, and sometimes luck and taking risks can make it too) Actually, if you are in a company that is not break even or profitable (yet) and you have NO LOANS, you go out and buy a profitable company, and use that to fund your existing company /venture until it is past break even into profitability. Once you start taking loans, you are handing over your business.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:24:00 - [240] Originally by: Yarrrrrhh A personal note to CCP: One way out of this mess would be to just be honest about all of this and let us buy those idiotic scorpion skins to solve your darn cash flow problem in the short term. Granted, the words 'Sorry, we ****ed up, please help us keep this sandbox alive. We'll do vanity items only, forever - ok?" would have to be spoken. Just my 2 cents. That's: a) sensible, and b) honest Neither of em seem to be part of Hilmars world. Unfortunately. -

Yvan Ratamnim	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:24:00 - [241] if this is true there idiots... cause honestly had they just made the cash shop work with the redone ships for skinning only, i'd spend a plex or 2 to skin my tengu and loki! not to mention the noctis etc... and im sure im not the only person that wud have spent isk and plex/aur on that but noooooo we get overpriced monocles and no word from ccp on why
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:25:00 - [242] Originally by: Yvan Ratamnim if this is true there idiots... cause honestly had they just made the cash shop work with the redone ships for skinning only, i'd spend a plex or 2 to skin my tengu and loki! not to mention the noctis etc... and im sure im not the only person that wud have spent isk and plex/aur on that but noooooo we get overpriced monocles and no word from ccp on why They are Icelandic, foolish with money. Keep up will ya.
Shadow XII	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:25:00 - [243] This thread needs to stay on the front page.
Fire Watch	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:26:00 - [244] Originally by: Miilla They are Icelandic, foolish with money. Keep up will ya. Thats got to hurt.. lol
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:28:00 - [245] This just in.... Iceland has a new flag to fit its new constitution... Here it is...
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:34:00 - [246] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 28/06/2011 00:37:35 Originally by: Miilla PLEX is an ingame item, GTC is a purchase with promise to get game time. Once a GTC is converted to a ingame item (or game time) it is no longer a liability, except the unfullfilled gametime which is a deferred income. I said that in other threads i was in but oh no Akita T said adamintly it is a liability. I got bashed from page to page over it lol. It still is a liability to the company. But, I don't think it's an accounting liability. The end effect of using plex as game time eventually appears as a lower subscriber rate and less revenue on the back end. This is why we have plex for <the flavor of the month>. CCP needs to get rid of Plex. That much is obvious. I don't think they realized that they would have people hording them in the amounts and for the length of time they have. Now, it's a looming problem. Unfortunately, I don't see a way for CCP to get out of any Plex crisis if there indeed is one. Anything they do to increase the need to use plex only increases the flow of plex into the game as the cost of GTC remains the same and the isk exchange increases. The only way they can decrease the flow of plex into the game is to raise GTC. But that effectively is a win for the RMT'ers.
BlondieBC Minmatar Galactic Exploration and Missions	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:34:00 - [247] Originally by: Kurfin Originally by: larry hotter bigpants What I find shocking is that they consider their goodwill to be worth 4.2 million dollars. I can't wait t see what that number is in the 2011 report. Not because I think we all are complianing too much, but because of all the negative press they have received. Goodwill in accounting term has nothing to customer relations, it to do with dividing ownership of the business between investors. It's a number largely plucked our of thin air (or rather arranged by the directors according to who has comprising pictures of who) that in no way contributes to the companies financial security. Someone who has done their accountancy qualification more recently than me could probably explain it better. It does look like they have spread themselves a little too thin. They could try partnering up with another company to help fund WoD, Dust is probably to much of a shot in the dark to get much outside investment in. Goodwill is the difference between the amount paid for the assets of a company over the sum of the value of the identifiable assets. It is not amortized, and is only written off if impaired. Example. Microsoft buys a small tech company for 100 million dollars. A complete list of assets is made, and valued at today market value. Assets would include things like land, buildings, equipment, inventory, patents, office equipment, etc. The sum of these items is say 75 million dollars, then good will is $25 million. Good will is only a plug used to make debts equal credits on an asset, not stock, purchase of an company.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:36:00 - [248] Originally by: Mr Kidd Originally by: Miilla PLEX is an ingame item, GTC is a purchase with promise to get game time. Once a GTC is converted to a ingame item (or game time) it is no longer a liability, except the unfullfilled gametime which is a deferred income. I said that in other threads i was in but oh no Akita T said adamintly it is a liability. I got bashed from page to page over it lol. It still is a liability to the company. But, I don't think it's an accounting liability. The end effect of using plex as game time eventually appears as a lower subscriber rate and less revenue on the back end. This is why we have plex for <the flavor of the month>. CCP needs to get rid of Plex. That much is obvious. I don't think they realized that they would have people hording them in the amounts and for the length of time they have. Now, it's a looming problem. It's not an accounting liability no, it is a bottleneck to getting new revenue which is a business liability. But that is a different thing. Once is a financial tool, the other is common business sense lol.
Darik Jita	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:37:00 - [249] Originally by: BlondieBC Originally by: Kurfin Originally by: larry hotter bigpants What I find shocking is that they consider their goodwill to be worth 4.2 million dollars. I can't wait t see what that number is in the 2011 report. Not because I think we all are complianing too much, but because of all the negative press they have received. Goodwill in accounting term has nothing to customer relations, it to do with dividing ownership of the business between investors. It's a number largely plucked our of thin air (or rather arranged by the directors according to who has comprising pictures of who) that in no way contributes to the companies financial security. Someone who has done their accountancy qualification more recently than me could probably explain it better. It does look like they have spread themselves a little too thin. They could try partnering up with another company to help fund WoD, Dust is probably to much of a shot in the dark to get much outside investment in. Goodwill is the difference between the amount paid for the assets of a company over the sum of the value of the identifiable assets. It is not amortized, and is only written off if impaired. Example. Microsoft buys a small tech company for 100 million dollars. A complete list of assets is made, and valued at today market value. Assets would include things like land, buildings, equipment, inventory, patents, office equipment, etc. The sum of these items is say 75 million dollars, then good will is $25 million. Good will is only a plug used to make debts equal credits on an asset, not stock, purchase of an company. Why am I not surprised that so many accountants play this game?
Neom Disaki	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:38:00 - [250] Where is a good link to the financial document, megaupload seems to have deleted it.

Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:38:00 - [251] Originally by: BlondieBC Originally by: Kurfin Originally by: larry hotter bigpants What I find shocking is that they consider their goodwill to be worth 4.2 million dollars. I can't wait t see what that number is in the 2011 report. Not because I think we all are complianing too much, but because of all the negative press they have received. Goodwill in accounting term has nothing to customer relations, it to do with dividing ownership of the business between investors. It's a number largely plucked our of thin air (or rather arranged by the directors according to who has comprising pictures of who) that in no way contributes to the companies financial security. Someone who has done their accountancy qualification more recently than me could probably explain it better. It does look like they have spread themselves a little too thin. They could try partnering up with another company to help fund WoD, Dust is probably to much of a shot in the dark to get much outside investment in. Goodwill is the difference between the amount paid for the assets of a company over the sum of the value of the identifiable assets. It is not amortized, and is only written off if impaired. Example. Microsoft buys a small tech company for 100 million dollars. A complete list of assets is made, and valued at today market value. Assets would include things like land, buildings, equipment, inventory, patents, office equipment, etc. The sum of these items is say 75 million dollars, then good will is $25 million. Good will is only a plug used to make debts equal credits on an asset, not stock, purchase of an company. Employees at Microsoft are VERY CLEARLY instructed ( POSTERS ON ALL THE DAMN WINDOWS INSTRUCTED ) that the ONLY thing they ever put as an ASSET is their PC hardware, NOTHING ELSE. Just a little factoid about MSFT :) Ofcourse they have their IP. But no other hardware the employees uses is an ASSET.
Maul555 Amarr Reliables Inc BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:43:00 - [252] Edited by: Maul555 on 28/06/2011 00:43:42 CCP; "There's thieves among us, they've taken the walls, with all kinds of lies and lies that I never told at all"... "and I know, and you know it too. That a love like ours, is terrible news. But that wont stop me cryin, no that wont stop me cryin over you"... /please get your **** together The EVE Personality Test
kestrael nanahara Caldari Wrecking Shots Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:44:00 - [253] Originally by: Miilla Employees at Microsoft are VERY CLEARLY instructed ( POSTERS ON ALL THE DAMN WINDOWS INSTRUCTED ) that the ONLY thing they ever put as an ASSET is their PC hardware, NOTHING ELSE. Just a little factoid about MSFT :) Ofcourse they have their IP. But no other hardware the employees uses is an ASSET.[/quote Whats that microsoft employees dont buy and operate their own nuclear power plants and what not :P
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:44:00 - [254] Short story of this, CCP are operating on too thin a cash liquidity, their loans (issued bonds) are maturing and have to be repaid back on the end of October this year. They need to BOOST revenues GREATLY to fund WoD and Dust and Microtransations are here agressively and with an agressive timetable.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:47:00 - [255] With all this news comming out... I better get more posters going :) http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/CCPRoyalsLaugh.jpg http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/StarWarsHelloKittyDarthVaderVanityItemsAlterPlan.jpg http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/CCPMMOofTheYearAward.jpg http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/EveFarmville.jpg http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/IncarnaWarping.jpg http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/CCPGag.jpg http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/CCPHilmarStayTheCourse.jpg http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1106/CCPPublicRelations.jpg
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:49:00 - [256] It takes a good person to run a successful business, it takes a very special person to ruin one :)
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:53:00 - [257] CCP Business As Usual
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:54:00 - [258] They can get the cash easily if they needed it, because their presentation will show off future projections on the future game properties. With a slick presentation and the thought of having multiple, profitable games running at once will convince banks to loan them the money. You are mad at them for doing MT or whatever, and you want it to be a situation worse than it is. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
Terminal Insanity Minmatar Convex Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:55:00 - [259] Originally by: Doav Inarvo Originally by: Terminal Insanity I just bought a 70 dollar monocle, so their new features definatly seem to be selling ^_^ now what to do with my leftover 2k aur... I think CCP have actualy sold more monacles through people just wanting to troll the forums than through vanity. If there hadnt been such an upoar I don;t think anyone would have brought one, now owning a monocle is the equivalent of sticking 2 fingers up to the EVE community. A valid point. I initially was wary of the NeX Store, but after listening to the mindless drivel coming from this lot on the forum, i realized i am indeed above all of you silly fools, and bought myself a monocle to secure my place among the elite.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:56:00 - [260] Originally by: Patient 2428190 They can get the cash easily if they needed it, because their presentation will show off future projections on the future game properties. With a slick presentation and the thought of having multiple, profitable games running at once will convince banks to loan them the money. You are mad at them for doing MT or whatever, and you want it to be a situation worse than it is. CCP will just reissue bonds to get loans from creditors. They don't give out loans for a presentation lol, they want bonds in the company.

Josh Bolder	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:56:00 - [261] I am a producer and very often sort out money for new films and completion of budgets in excess of 20 million pounds. I have not seen this supposed annual report, but you all seem to be speculating on a cash flow forecast. Which may have many varying aspects, not to forget that the engines (Carbon) and code, itself will be sold to other markets e.g. the quake engine or the Unreal Engine and many more. Also the company most likely have A class Shares and B class Shares for investors in each project, with each project also being supported by other projects and products. Plus the projects will also have completion bonds. The loan itself will already have a refinancing option built in. In other words none of you know what the F your talking about so for gods sake move on and concentrate on other issues.
Maul555 Amarr Reliables Inc BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:58:00 - [262] Edited by: Maul555 on 28/06/2011 00:59:36 Edited by: Maul555 on 28/06/2011 00:58:38 You really know a thread has gone to hell when Miilla shows up... This thread is over guys... I am really starting to hate that biatch. The EVE Personality Test
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:59:00 - [263] Originally by: Josh Bolder I am a producer and very often sort out money for new films and completion of budgets in excess of 20 million pounds. I have not seen this supposed annual report, but you all seem to be speculating on a cash flow forecast. Which may have many varying aspects, not to forget that the engines (Carbon) and code, itself will be sold to other markets e.g. the quake engine or the Unreal Engine and many more. Also the company most likely have A class Shares and B class Shares for investors in each project, with each project also being supported by other projects and products. Plus the projects will also have completion bonds. The loan itself will already have a refinancing option built in. In other words none of you know what the F your talking about so for gods sake move on and concentrate on other issues. Show where CCP is planning to license the Carbon engine, licensing it to your competitors is not really a good idea, unless you expect them to bail you out, but that could back fire. They however will use it in their other projects. Licensing Carbon I don't see (yet).
Neom Disaki	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:59:00 - [264] Originally by: Maul555 You really know a thread has gone to hell when Miilla shows up... This thread is over guys... I am really starting to hate that *****. Too true. I feel the same. Now if we could be done with yellow text Miilla posts, and someone could post a new link the the financial statement, since megaupload deleted theirs?
Fire Watch	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:00:00 - [265] Originally by: Miilla This just in.... Iceland has a new flag to fit its new constitution... Here it is... bwhahaha
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:01:00 - [266] Originally by: Miilla Once you start taking loans, you are handing over your business. "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender." ~Proverbs 22:7 My faith in CCP will return SoonÖ We'll watch what you do not what you say.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:01:00 - [267] Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:02:19 Originally by: Josh Bolder I am a producer and very often sort out money for new films and completion of budgets in excess of 20 million pounds. I have not seen this supposed annual report, but you all seem to be speculating on a cash flow forecast. Which may have many varying aspects, not to forget that the engines (Carbon) and code, itself will be sold to other markets e.g. the quake engine or the Unreal Engine and many more. Also the company most likely have A class Shares and B class Shares for investors in each project, with each project also being supported by other projects and products. Plus the projects will also have completion bonds. The loan itself will already have a refinancing option built in. In other words none of you know what the F your talking about so for gods sake move on and concentrate on other issues. ok. so you on the internet sort out 20 million deals, ok.. but you cant be a rsed to read the actual report, but you claim expertese on the report and to know their bond details. Ok, Im in.
Caladan Broood	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:03:00 - [268] You know I've been to this dance before. Game company doing something well, Game company has possible money issues, Game company gets in bed with Sony. Suddenly later when new game supposed to come out it is utter crap and Game company fails. Sony acquires new IP title and adds it to their station account. Did they hire Brad McQuaid as a consultant?
Terminal Insanity Minmatar Convex Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:04:00 - [269] Originally by: Josh Bolder I am a producer and very often sort out money for new films and completion of budgets in excess of 20 million pounds. I have not seen this supposed annual report, but you all seem to be speculating on a cash flow forecast. Which may have many varying aspects, not to forget that the engines (Carbon) and code, itself will be sold to other markets e.g. the quake engine or the Unreal Engine and many more. Also the company most likely have A class Shares and B class Shares for investors in each project, with each project also being supported by other projects and products. Plus the projects will also have completion bonds. The loan itself will already have a refinancing option built in. In other words none of you know what the F your talking about so for gods sake move on and concentrate on other issues. the 'terrible financial situation' is the context chosen by a bunch of kids who are on summer break from highschool. We're dealing with people here who cant stand the idea that someone else might be wearing a monocle that does absolutly nothing. This group saw one word about loans and automatically thought CCP was going under. Infact, many businesses take out loans. It happens thousands of times each day. Welcome to the real world kids.
Ein Spiegel Minmatar Fly-by-Night Industries LLC PTY LTD	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:05:00 - [270] Something to keep in mind, to all of the people that are "lol, dumb kids giving great CEO of CCP advice on how to run a corp... idiots!": Well, yes. A fair amount of the user population probably might fall into that category. But some of them? Some of them actually are quite intelligent, successful individuals who have made themselves a boatload of money doing things that most of us (including CCP employees) have never thought of doing. No, I'm not one of them. But there are lawyers, accountants, successful businesspeople, politicians, ranking military, etc, that play Eve Online. Hell, there's more than one Fortune 500 CEO/CFO that plays the game, rumor goes. (As the rumor came from Wired, I tend to think there's SOME weight to it.) Face it, Eve (even where it's broken) is a different game, and draws a generally different demographic, than many other games. When BoB collapsed, people flew across the country overnight to figure out what the hell happened. (Or so we're told.) There ARE people that know ** about , and can (and likely will) tell CCP to pull up their damn pants. That said, most of them probably aren't rage posting. And some people are just pulling ** out of their ass. But it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility to learn from the social interactions and organizational tactics used in Eve online and apply them to the real world. Go hang out in some of the deep think tank threads in MD - you can learn basic principles that (of course) require some tweaking but apply to most business endeavors. Some people can do that. Not all (again, not me either) but some people can.

Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:05:00 - [271] Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:09:19 Originally by: Terminal Insanity Originally by: Josh Bolder I am a producer and very often sort out money for new films and completion of budgets in excess of 20 million pounds. I have not seen this supposed annual report, but you all seem to be speculating on a cash flow forecast. Which may have many varying aspects, not to forget that the engines (Carbon) and code, itself will be sold to other markets e.g. the quake engine or the Unreal Engine and many more. Also the company most likely have A class Shares and B class Shares for investors in each project, with each project also being supported by other projects and products. Plus the projects will also have completion bonds. The loan itself will already have a refinancing option built in. In other words none of you know what the F your talking about so for gods sake move on and concentrate on other issues. the 'terrible financial situation' is the context chosen by a bunch of kids who are on summer break from highschool. We're dealing with people here who cant stand the idea that someone else might be wearing a monocle that does absolutly nothing. This group saw one word about loans and automatically thought CCP was going under. Infact, many businesses take out loans. It happens thousands of times each day. Welcome to the real world kids. Thats funny, lots of companies I know never took out loans and even refused to do so. They where operating at a loss during RnD stage, until break even, if they really needed more money, they would have bought a profitable company and used that to fund their RnD. Plenty of successful companies never get loans and grow.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:05:00 - [272] Originally by: Terminal Insanity Originally by: Josh Bolder I am a producer and very often sort out money for new films and completion of budgets in excess of 20 million pounds. I have not seen this supposed annual report, but you all seem to be speculating on a cash flow forecast. Which may have many varying aspects, not to forget that the engines (Carbon) and code, itself will be sold to other markets e.g. the quake engine or the Unreal Engine and many more. Also the company most likely have A class Shares and B class Shares for investors in each project, with each project also being supported by other projects and products. Plus the projects will also have completion bonds. The loan itself will already have a refinancing option built in. In other words none of you know what the F your talking about so for gods sake move on and concentrate on other issues. the 'terrible financial situation' is the context chosen by a bunch of kids who are on summer break from highschool. We're dealing with people here who cant stand the idea that someone else might be wearing a monocle that does absolutly nothing. This group saw one word about loans and automatically thought CCP was going under. Infact, many businesses take out loans. It happens thousands of times each day. Welcome to the real world kids. So that's just a haters gonna hate rant? Thanks. My faith in CCP will return SoonÖ We'll watch what you do not what you say.
Josh Bolder	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:09:00 - [273] Edited by: Josh Bolder on 28/06/2011 01:10:40 Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:02:19 Originally by: Josh Bolder I am a producer and very often sort out money for new films and completion of budgets in excess of 20 million pounds. I have not seen this supposed annual report, but you all seem to be speculating on a cash flow forecast. Which may have many varying aspects, not to forget that the engines (Carbon) and code, itself will be sold to other markets e.g. the quake engine or the Unreal Engine and many more. Also the company most likely have A class Shares and B class Shares for investors in each project, with each project also being supported by other projects and products. Plus the projects will also have completion bonds. The loan itself will already have a refinancing option built in. In other words none of you know what the F your talking about so for gods sake move on and concentrate on other issues. ok. so you on the internet sort out 20 million deals, ok.. but you cant be a rsed to read the actual report, but you claim expertese on the report and to know their bond details. Ok, Im in. It is basic business structure you know business and accounting 101, you don't get large loans or investments with out bonds or evidence of growth, it is not their current state that you are all talking about it is their CASH FLOW FORECAST so I couldn't give a flying duck about a supposed report which would only have the previous companies 'tax year' stats on. I am commenting on the current chatter in the forum. LOL
alexreborn Invicta. Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:10:00 - [274] Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Josh Bolder I am a producer and very often sort out money for new films and completion of budgets in excess of 20 million pounds. I have not seen this supposed annual report, but you all seem to be speculating on a cash flow forecast. Which may have many varying aspects, not to forget that the engines (Carbon) and code, itself will be sold to other markets e.g. the quake engine or the Unreal Engine and many more. Also the company most likely have A class Shares and B class Shares for investors in each project, with each project also being supported by other projects and products. Plus the projects will also have completion bonds. The loan itself will already have a refinancing option built in. In other words none of you know what the F your talking about so for gods sake move on and concentrate on other issues. Show where CCP is planning to license the Carbon engine, licensing it to your competitors is not really a good idea, unless you expect them to bail you out, but that could back fire. They however will use it in their other projects. Licensing Carbon I don't see (yet). LOL liscence the carbon endgine? SOLD TO OTHER MARKETS>>>??? Lol.... LOLOL seriously, you lost any credibility about your 20 million account that u manage when you said that. have u seen incarna CQ???? Thats the best they could do after how long??? Dude original counter strike beta looks better then that.
Terminal Insanity Minmatar Convex Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:11:00 - [275] Originally by: Miilla Show where CCP is planning to license the Carbon engine, licensing it to your competitors is not really a good idea, unless you expect them to bail you out, but that could back fire. Huh, i guess ID Software, Valve Software, Epic Games, Turbine, etc, etc, never got that memo. Good thing we've got these brilliant eve players here to show these industry fools how to run a corp! I'll bet they'll be glad to know they need to stop selling game engines.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:11:00 - [276] Originally by: Josh Bolder Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:02:19 Originally by: Josh Bolder I am a producer and very often sort out money for new films and completion of budgets in excess of 20 million pounds. I have not seen this supposed annual report, but you all seem to be speculating on a cash flow forecast. Which may have many varying aspects, not to forget that the engines (Carbon) and code, itself will be sold to other markets e.g. the quake engine or the Unreal Engine and many more. Also the company most likely have A class Shares and B class Shares for investors in each project, with each project also being supported by other projects and products. Plus the projects will also have completion bonds. The loan itself will already have a refinancing option built in. In other words none of you know what the F your talking about so for gods sake move on and concentrate on other issues. It is basic business structure you know business and accounting 101, you don't get large loans or investments with out bonds or evidence of growth, it is not their current state that you are all talking about it is their CASH FLOW FORECAST so I couldn't give a flying duck about a supposed report which would only have the previous companies 'tax year' stats on. I am commenting on the current chatter in the forum. LOL ok. so you on the internet sort out 20 million deals, ok.. but you cant be a rsed to read the actual report, but you claim expertese on the report and to know their bond details. Ok, Im in. And they need to get that growth in there, hence the agressive Microtransactions.
Mister Dreyfus	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:12:00 - [277] Edited by: Mister Dreyfus on 28/06/2011 01:12:19 I'm going to doublepost my reply to the other thread. A 12m dollar loan on 57M/yr revenue is not that big a deal. They can probably roll the entire thing over anyway. CCP also has other ways to raise cash if they need to. One of those ways might be boosting the revenue of their flagship product, but it's certainly not the only way.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:13:00 - [278] Originally by: Terminal Insanity Originally by: Miilla Show where CCP is planning to license the Carbon engine, licensing it to your competitors is not really a good idea, unless you expect them to bail you out, but that could back fire. Huh, i guess ID Software, Valve Software, Epic Games, Turbine, etc, etc, never got that memo. Good thing we've got these brilliant eve players here to show these industry fools how to run a corp! I'll bet they'll be glad to know they need to stop selling game engines. Yeah CCP is right up there with Valve, ID, Epic and turbine lol
Sylthi Minmatar Coreward Pan-Galactic Holy Empire of The Unshaven	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:13:00 - [279] Here is an idea CCP: Keep the customers you already HAVE happy rather than fishing for new ones that might pay you more money! Do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING you have to do to keep the PAYING CUSTOMERS you have WALKING OUT THE DOOR from leaving, and you MIGHT make it through this financial MESS you have gotten yourself into with p iss-poor management and completely incompetent leadership. I personally don't believe in the CSM as anything more than a PR gimmick on the part of CCP. But, promising them EVERY LITTLE THING that your CURRENT paying customers want to hear MIGHT help. As for me, this just proves it. I can't believe ANYTHING that comes out of CCPs mouth. Their DESPERATE. And, desperate people will say and do ANYTHING to save themselves from the abyss. My advise CCP? Doesn't matter. You won't listen. But I can predict what you are GOING to do in the end to save yourself. The same thing every company does when faced with a financial disaster of this magnitude. Layoffs. And, hence, my prediction of some of the devs finding out things the hard way in the unemployment line, comes true. Cheers, for what it's worth. * *
Realdoll1	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:14:00 - [280] If microtransactions fail CCP will be sold. Simple as that. MT, really? You bet the farm on friggin microtransactions,,,,,, SJ

Josh Bolder	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:15:00 - [281] Originally by: alexreborn Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Josh Bolder I am a producer and very often sort out money for new films and completion of budgets in excess of 20 million pounds. I have not seen this supposed annual report, but you all seem to be speculating on a cash flow forecast. Which may have many varying aspects, not to forget that the engines (Carbon) and code, itself will be sold to other markets e.g. the quake engine or the Unreal Engine and many more. Also the company most likely have A class Shares and B class Shares for investors in each project, with each project also being supported by other projects and products. Plus the projects will also have completion bonds. The loan itself will already have a refinancing option built in. In other words none of you know what the F your talking about so for gods sake move on and concentrate on other issues. Show where CCP is planning to license the Carbon engine, licensing it to your competitors is not really a good idea, unless you expect them to bail you out, but that could back fire. They however will use it in their other projects. Licensing Carbon I don't see (yet). LOL liscence the carbon endgine? SOLD TO OTHER MARKETS>>>??? Lol.... LOLOL seriously, you lost any credibility about your 20 million account that u manage when you said that. have u seen incarna CQ???? Thats the best they could do after how long??? Dude original counter strike beta looks better then that. LOL Carbon is more than the CQ check out the link to see more http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qi75CTrYzk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qi75CTrYzk[/url]
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:17:00 - [282] Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:19:01 Yeah I hear CCP's main investors are in good standing with the Icelandic people. I think they are rated at about -10.0 :) Maybe they can buy back some standings with them for AUR
Josh Bolder	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:19:00 - [283] Originally by: Terminal Insanity Originally by: Miilla Show where CCP is planning to license the Carbon engine, licensing it to your competitors is not really a good idea, unless you expect them to bail you out, but that could back fire. Huh, i guess ID Software, Valve Software, Epic Games, Turbine, etc, etc, never got that memo. Good thing we've got these brilliant eve players here to show these industry fools how to run a corp! I'll bet they'll be glad to know they need to stop selling game engines. Thanks for the support, but really a monocle? lol saying that if they brought out a Penguin toy for my cabin I would buy it, MT sure fine a business got to grow, PtW no way. Even though I am inching for more SP
Josh Bolder	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:21:00 - [284] Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:19:01 Yeah I hear CCP's main investors are in good standing with the Icelandic people. I think they are rated at about -10.0 :) Maybe they can buy back some standings with them for AUR Just to be clear they are an international company with international investors. their base of opp really has no bearing on anything
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:22:00 - [285] Originally by: Josh Bolder Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:19:01 Yeah I hear CCP's main investors are in good standing with the Icelandic people. I think they are rated at about -10.0 :) Maybe they can buy back some standings with them for AUR Just to be clear they are an international company with international investors. their base of opp really has no bearing on anything Investors are in Iceland, with shell companies in London.
Terminal Insanity Minmatar Convex Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:23:00 - [286] Originally by: Misanth Originally by: Yarrrrrhh A personal note to CCP: One way out of this mess would be to just be honest about all of this and let us buy those idiotic scorpion skins to solve your darn cash flow problem in the short term. Granted, the words 'Sorry, we ****ed up, please help us keep this sandbox alive. We'll do vanity items only, forever - ok?" would have to be spoken. Just my 2 cents. That's: a) sensible, and b) honest Neither of em seem to be part of Hilmars world. Unfortunately. Funny, im pretty sure that all the devblogs and ccp forum posts have been saying they'll sell vanity-only items in NeX and specifically stated that there will be no non-vanity items. But hey lets act like they didnt, and keep throwing the question up!
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:24:00 - [287] Originally by: Terminal Insanity Originally by: Misanth Originally by: Yarrrrrhh A personal note to CCP: One way out of this mess would be to just be honest about all of this and let us buy those idiotic scorpion skins to solve your darn cash flow problem in the short term. Granted, the words 'Sorry, we ****ed up, please help us keep this sandbox alive. We'll do vanity items only, forever - ok?" would have to be spoken. Just my 2 cents. That's: a) sensible, and b) honest Neither of em seem to be part of Hilmars world. Unfortunately. Funny, im pretty sure that all the devblogs and ccp forum posts have been saying they'll sell vanity-only items in NeX and specifically stated that there will be no non-vanity items. But hey lets act like they didnt, and keep throwing the question up! Prepare to be boarded
Josh Bolder	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:24:00 - [288] LOL ok I am now assuming your like some 14 year old and you really have no understanding so i will no longer answer your post, rofl,
Caladan Broood	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:25:00 - [289] So CCP's carbon engine that renders as if it was 2007 again will be licensed and bought up like the quake engine. I guess the developers over at Bioware, Crysis, Bethseda and others are quaking in their boots over the massive engine that is Carbon and how it will crush their decades of engine development and optimization. It isn't every day you can create an engine that will burnout all older system, who wouldn't scramble to use that piece of ****!
Duran Sarn	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:25:00 - [290] Originally by: Terminal Insanity Originally by: Misanth Originally by: Yarrrrrhh A personal note to CCP: One way out of this mess would be to just be honest about all of this and let us buy those idiotic scorpion skins to solve your darn cash flow problem in the short term. Granted, the words 'Sorry, we ****ed up, please help us keep this sandbox alive. We'll do vanity items only, forever - ok?" would have to be spoken. Just my 2 cents. That's: a) sensible, and b) honest Neither of em seem to be part of Hilmars world. Unfortunately. Funny, im pretty sure that all the devblogs and ccp forum posts have been saying they'll sell vanity-only items in NeX and specifically stated that there will be no non-vanity items. But hey lets act like they didnt, and keep throwing the question up! You didn't even read the devblogs, right?

Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:27:00 - [291] I guess this is why we cannot get GOLD AMMO :( They cannot afford GOLD.
Terminal Insanity Minmatar Convex Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:28:00 - [292] Originally by: Josh Bolder Thanks for the support, but really a monocle? lol saying that if they brought out a Penguin toy for my cabin I would buy it, MT sure fine a business got to grow, PtW no way. Even though I am inching for more SP You're goddamn right a monocle! lol I agree though, as long as theres no special extra-damage ammo, or faster ROF guns or something. I'm completely ok with vanity-only items or repainted equivelents in the NeX store, i don't care if they make a top hat that costs 50 plex. Go for it! It doesn't effect the game world, and doesnt give anyone an advantage. It puts cash in CCP's pocket. and it puts more monocles and content in my game, that tbh needs it after all these years =P
Josh Bolder	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:29:00 - [293] Originally by: Terminal Insanity Originally by: Misanth Originally by: Yarrrrrhh A personal note to CCP: One way out of this mess would be to just be honest about all of this and let us buy those idiotic scorpion skins to solve your darn cash flow problem in the short term. Granted, the words 'Sorry, we ****ed up, please help us keep this sandbox alive. We'll do vanity items only, forever - ok?" would have to be spoken. Just my 2 cents. That's: a) sensible, and b) honest Neither of em seem to be part of Hilmars world. Unfortunately. Funny, im pretty sure that all the devblogs and ccp forum posts have been saying they'll sell vanity-only items in NeX and specifically stated that there will be no non-vanity items. But hey lets act like they didnt, and keep throwing the question up! To be fair if it was so clear cut all the Devs would of just said no when it all blew up, I think that they suffer from a slow start rate for noobs which they tried to fix with the officers adds and it must be in their mind to use on nex, I know it would be mine if my chief complaint on unsub was it takes to long to lvl (or equivalent) but their fearless mag was pretty daming.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:30:00 - [294] STAY THE COURSE! hahahaha
Terminal Insanity Minmatar Convex Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:32:00 - [295] Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:28:03 I guess this is why we cannot get GOLD AMMO :( They cannot afford GOLD. How about BRASS? Can we have BRASS instead? It looks almost like GOLD. I heard if you talk in really large colorful letters, you make your point more valid. So im here to tell you all that CCP has officially stated several times on the devblog and in forums, that they will only carry vanity items in the NeX store. I also think Pink is a more valid color, and therefore your yellow arguments are now void.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:33:00 - [296] Originally by: Terminal Insanity Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:28:03 I guess this is why we cannot get GOLD AMMO :( They cannot afford GOLD. How about BRASS? Can we have BRASS instead? It looks almost like GOLD. I heard if you talk in really large colorful letters, you make your point more valid. So im here to tell you all that CCP has officially stated several times on the devblog and in forums, that they will only carry vanity items in the NeX store. I also think Pink is a more valid color, and therefore your yellow arguments are now void. I have to type large, it's so they can see my text on my monitor from all the way up there in Iceland.
Duran Sarn	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:35:00 - [297] Originally by: Terminal Insanity Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:28:03 I guess this is why we cannot get GOLD AMMO :( They cannot afford GOLD. How about BRASS? Can we have BRASS instead? It looks almost like GOLD. I heard if you talk in really large colorful letters, you make your point more valid. So im here to tell you all that CCP has officially stated several times on the devblog and in forums, that they will only carry vanity items in the NeX store. I also think Pink is a more valid color, and therefore your yellow arguments are now void. Would you be so kind and show me where they denied non-vanity items in the devblog?
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:40:00 - [298] Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:40:28 $8m in 4 months. That's a lot of monocles. 114285.7142857143 to be exact. I don't think there is that many customers to buy monocles.
PepperPotts	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:41:00 - [299] The link in the OP to the fiscals is no longer valid, anybody got a better - working - link ?
Duran Sarn	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:42:00 - [300] Originally by: PepperPotts The link in the OP to the fiscals is no longer valid, anybody got a better - working - link ? Deliverers gonna deliver

Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:44:00 - [301] But nothing to worry about, CCP have a SOLID REPUTATION and their investors are well liked in Iceland.
Indy Rider Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:44:00 - [302] Edited by: Indy Rider on 28/06/2011 01:44:23 Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:40:28 $8m in 4 months. That's a lot of monocles. 114285.7142857143 to be exact. I don't think there is that many customers to buy monocles. Oh god, please stop posting. They won't have a reputation if they can't pay the loan. Remember the bank problem in Iceland? Whos going to give money to an Icelandic company who can't fund their own ****.
Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:44:00 - [303] Originally by: SciWolf JUST RAISE THE SUB. THAT IS ALL. OR A DONATE BUTTON FFS. What on earth is wrong with you? If you want to give CCP money then buy another year of account time. Or, start a second account or something. That's fine. But donating? This is a business not a charity. - "When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed." - CCP Big Dumb Object
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:44:00 - [304] Originally by: PepperPotts The link in the OP to the fiscals is no longer valid, anybody got a better - working - link ? Linkage
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:46:00 - [305] Originally by: Andrea Griffin Originally by: SciWolf JUST RAISE THE SUB. THAT IS ALL. OR A DONATE BUTTON FFS. What on earth is wrong with you? If you want to give CCP money then buy another year of account time. Or, start a second account or something. That's fine. But donating? This is a business not a charity. They can issue us Bonds as security for the loan, then it matures, they pay us back. Safer than JUNK BONDS (just about). Then they can keep doing whatever they do and keep issuing bonds that mature each year. No sense in fixing the actual problem, just dig your way out.
Kilmiester	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:48:00 - [306] Originally by: The PDF The terms of such bank loan provide that the Company will not secure its property with respect to additional financial debt, other than permitted exceptions outlined in the agreement. Not a financial wizard, so probably wrong. But it seems to me that there are limitations on their ability to just roll over the loan as it stands right now. So as someone said earlier in this thread. CCP needs to inflate their numbers a little so they can show off prettier charts and spreadsheets. Working money store(at least on paper) adds a lot of value to borrow against. Very Predictable Feedback.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:49:00 - [307] Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:50:32 Originally by: Kilmiester Originally by: The PDF The terms of such bank loan provide that the Company will not secure its property with respect to additional financial debt, other than permitted exceptions outlined in the agreement. Not a financial wizard, so probably wrong. But it seems to me that there are limitations on their ability to just roll over the loan as it stands right now. So as someone said earlier in this thread. CCP needs to inflate their numbers a little so they can show off prettier charts and spreadsheets. Working money store(at least on paper) adds a lot of value to borrow against. And those creditors can see through that smoke and mirrors, it is their job. What they want to see is the actual store MAKING MONEY and CCP have to have it up and profiting NOW.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:53:00 - [308] Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:54:46 Originally by: Indy Rider Edited by: Indy Rider on 28/06/2011 01:44:23 Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:40:28 $8m in 4 months. That's a lot of monocles. 114285.7142857143 to be exact. I don't think there is that many customers to buy monocles. Oh god, please stop posting. They won't have a reputation if they can't pay the loan. Remember the bank problem in Iceland? Whos going to give money to an Icelandic company who can't fund their own ****. Somebody should make a webpage with a counter that keeps a tally of monocles sold :) (or not) I can see the situation room in CCP HQ now, A huge screen with a Monocle Counter and a Doomsday clock beside it.
kari bourza	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:58:00 - [309] Big lol at the people giving suggestions and feeling sorry for CCP, isn't it already obvious that they dont give a flying **** about us ? it was already obvious when they started this DUST crap, so they decide without asking our opinion to go and create a new game for console and when they fail we're supposed to pay ? never gonna happen CCP not even in your wildest Dreams
Tobias Sjodin Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:05:00 - [310] Forum hobby economists at work. Surely they know best! Back in 2006 it used to be: "I work as an IT-Professional and I think what CCP are doing wrong in fixing the lag is connecting their cables wrong" Now it's "I'm in law-school, this shows that CCP are bankrupt in a few months!" And these are the people who want to have open doors access to the CSM-meeting, oh boy! I can't wait to have Mr. "I got an MIT-graduation in my e-mail" influence the future of EVE. HABIT

Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:05:00 - [311] Originally by: Headerman Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 01:56:19 Originally by: Headerman I for one get alot of enjoyment out of Eve and i am happy to pay to keep them going and expanding. The whole 'Greed is good' email made CCP look like they wanted a pay rise. But it not, and they really do need the money, i am fine with it. $8m in 4 months. That's 114285.7142857143 Monocles to be exact. Better start shopping rich boy. Hmmm i have 17 chars, so thats 17 monacles... 3 plex each... should be easily do-able. You want one too Hobo? Definition of SAD.
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:06:00 - [312] Originally by: Terminal Insanity Originally by: Miilla Show where CCP is planning to license the Carbon engine, licensing it to your competitors is not really a good idea, unless you expect them to bail you out, but that could back fire. Huh, i guess ID Software, Valve Software, Epic Games, Turbine, etc, etc, never got that memo. Good thing we've got these brilliant eve players here to show these industry fools how to run a corp! I'll bet they'll be glad to know they need to stop selling game engines. License Carbon? Really? If this was brought to my desk for evaluation I'd laugh. It has no documentation, it's not been ported any place except Eve, there's no community of independent developers around it, no one to consult much less hire. They don't even have documentation for the API at $99 a year. No one would buy it when there are other proven platforms with tons of support. My faith in CCP will return SoonÖ We'll watch what you do not what you say.
Josh Bolder	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:10:00 - [313] LMAO guys i seriously doubt this is real the audit goes from january 1st to dec 31 companies year end usually crosses over e.g. 2010/11. they had 300,000 accounts (which they had more of last year) at $20 a pop = 72 million dollars, not 50 million. I only skim read it so I am not sure, but It is an audit so could have a lot of other paper work we cant see. But i do no wages are a cost of sale and seemed to be missing from the gross profit
Neira Momaki	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:10:00 - [314] Originally by: kari bourza Big lol at the people giving suggestions and feeling sorry for CCP, isn't it already obvious that they dont give a flying ** about us ? it was already obvious when they started this DUST crap, so they decide without asking our opinion to go and create a new game for console and when they fail we're supposed to pay ? never gonna happen CCP not even in your wildest Dreams Think abut it dofus, why would they risk angering the whole population of EVE if they didn't absolutely have to? How long do you think a company can innovate and progress with a platform that doesn't appeal to a large group, so out comes Dust which must have envelopment costs in the millions. now you are between a rock and a hard place, you are too far down the path of PS3 game development to pull out and the EVE subscriptions might not have been enough to cover the costs of EVE alone by its self with constant hardware upgrades an the such. The millions of dollars have to come from somewhere o MT and the EVE community suffers. But if you ask me I'd rather have EVE suffer a little than CCP closes or gets gobbled up by EA who would want a WOW competitor. I wish CCP would have just been honest with the player base instead of trying to slid it in on us. If they had pleaded with the player base every ne of the EVE players would have chipped in. and before you say ' you ccp, you get what you deserved". what good do you honestly think would come of CCP failing? YEA YOU CCP TAKE THAT, NOW LET ME LOG INTO EV... oh ** ball...
4IN1	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:11:00 - [315] Well having 3 game in line is not all that insane afterall, just take a look at BIS(many people who are in mil sim gaming should know who they are, no?)They have 3 game in developement cycle, 2 of them use already exsisted engine, one use new engine and had been under long development time, and their pass game all have bugs problem but you don't hear their CEO crying about and their patch do fix some bugs, what they have, it seems, is good management. CCP: Ambition, but rubbish.
Benri Konpaku	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:12:00 - [316] Originally by: Miilla But nothing to worry about, CCP have a SOLID REPUTATION and their investors are well liked in Iceland. LOLOLOLOLOL
Machete Visor	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:18:00 - [317] i dont see an bankruptcy potential here. i see $11M in the bank in cash at 12/31. $11M due in October $17M in operating free cash flow. they will have no problem rolling that $11M over the only trouble spot I see: $30M in salaries. That is more than 50% of all revenues. So basically, what i see is a business that has a nice little annuity (eve) and is developing... it may be sold if its development efforts fail, but bankruptcy is not on the doorstep ... nothing like that. Frankly i expected more debt. Ignore the deferred income, development costs, capitalized items etc etc. Bankers (lenders) look for free cash and debt ratio + any valuable assets for a company like this. equity holders (including CCP employees) would care about the other stuff, but equity holders aren't gonna send the company under. They may, however, buy out the company if return targets aren't being met. That is far more likely, imho, than a bankruptcy.
Obviously Confidential	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:19:00 - [318] Seems the CSM is already making progress with CCP and communication is flowing - this is the right thing to happen. These things we have identified, vented and protested about, will not get solved in 1-2 days. CCP seems to be doing the right thing and we should give them a chance to sort it out. The possibility that a game company will change it's ways after the community speaks and that this is achieved through an elected body of player representatives is pretty awesome in itself, we can set a standard for EVE and other games. This is a good thing for "us": EVE, community, CCP. Not to mention my favorite game get's to write another page on the annals of the gaming industry
kari bourza	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:28:00 - [319] I still didn't see a single proof that a company absolutely need to grow to survive, i know a lot of companies that didn't grow an inch since 1970 but instead focused on what they already have or do, and tried to make it better, and they're still around, and they don't owe money to banks, because simply they don't try to play with heavy weights when they cant afford it and keep their ambitions in check, either way they didn't ask our opinion and if they ****ed up , they shouldn't afterward expect us to bail them out, and believe me i don't want to see EVE dying, but like the old saying goes : you make your own bed, and you lie in it
Selinate Amarr Mocking Birds	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:30:00 - [320] bad link for the annual report.

Machete Visor	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:31:00 - [321] Originally by: kari bourza I still didn't see a single proof that a company absolutely need to grow to survive, i know a lot of companies that didn't grow an inch since 1970 but instead focused on what they already have or do, and tried to make it better, and they're still around, and they don't owe money to banks, because simply they don't try to play with heavy weights when they cant afford it and keep their ambitions in check, either way they didn't ask our opinion and if they ****ed up , they shouldn't afterward expect us to bail them out, and believe me i don't want to see EVE dying, but like the old saying goes : you make your own bed, and you lie in it companies must grow, period. if you don't, your equity holders will sell. they sell, company folds. you can't sit without growth unless you are owned by a single person who will keep their money in. anyone with economically rationale investors must grow
Linar Mardolak Minmatar Phlogiston Absorption	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:53:00 - [322] Originally by: Obviously Confidential Seems the CSM is already making progress with CCP and communication is flowing - this is the right thing to happen. These things we have identified, vented and protested about, will not get solved in 1-2 days. This didn't come from the CSM, it came from finding the public financial records that CCP is required to file as an Icelandic corporation.
Bklyn 1	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:57:00 - [323] Originally by: Machete Visor Originally by: kari bourza I still didn't see a single proof that a company absolutely need to grow to survive, i know a lot of companies that didn't grow an inch since 1970 but instead focused on what they already have or do, and tried to make it better, and they're still around, and they don't owe money to banks, because simply they don't try to play with heavy weights when they cant afford it and keep their ambitions in check, either way they didn't ask our opinion and if they ****ed up , they shouldn't afterward expect us to bail them out, and believe me i don't want to see EVE dying, but like the old saying goes : you make your own bed, and you lie in it companies must grow, period. if you don't, your equity holders will sell. they sell, company folds. you can't sit without growth unless you are owned by a single person who will keep their money in. anyone with economically rationale investors must grow but CCP is privately owned, isn't it?
Linar Mardolak Minmatar Phlogiston Absorption	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:57:00 - [324] Originally by: kari bourza I still didn't see a single proof that a company absolutely need to grow to survive, i know a lot of companies that didn't grow an inch since 1970 but instead focused on what they already have or do, and tried to make it better, and they're still around, and they don't owe money to banks, because simply they don't try to play with heavy weights when they cant afford it and keep their ambitions in check, either way they didn't ask our opinion and if they ****ed up , they shouldn't afterward expect us to bail them out, and believe me i don't want to see EVE dying, but like the old saying goes : you make your own bed, and you lie in it Yes, plenty of companies - Joe's Drycleaning, Fred G. Sanford and Son Salvage....
Grog Barrel	Posted - 2011.06.28 03:00:00 - [325] Originally by: Xinxua Originally by: Yarrrrrhh Originally by: Lug Thorne So really their short term financial future depends on keeping Eve going? After jeopardizing it with WoD and Dust. That's how it looks to me. Yes sticking to one product line and not expanding into new markets is the best way to expand your company. why would you expand your company if you are doing well to begin with.
Linar Mardolak Minmatar Phlogiston Absorption	Posted - 2011.06.28 03:01:00 - [326] Originally by: Bklyn 1 Originally by: Machete Visor Originally by: kari bourza I still didn't see a single proof that a company absolutely need to grow to survive, i know a lot of companies that didn't grow an inch since 1970 but instead focused on what they already have or do, and tried to make it better, and they're still around, and they don't owe money to banks, because simply they don't try to play with heavy weights when they cant afford it and keep their ambitions in check, either way they didn't ask our opinion and if they ****ed up , they shouldn't afterward expect us to bail them out, and believe me i don't want to see EVE dying, but like the old saying goes : you make your own bed, and you lie in it companies must grow, period. if you don't, your equity holders will sell. they sell, company folds. you can't sit without growth unless you are owned by a single person who will keep their money in. anyone with economically rationale investors must grow but CCP is privately owned, isn't it? Privately owned, but mostly held by VCs. (hint: The VCs don't just let you do whatever you want with their company.)
Velvet Dream	Posted - 2011.06.28 03:07:00 - [327] Edited by: Velvet Dream on 28/06/2011 03:09:39 I frankly don't understand what all the rage is about. You can already buy SP for USD (USD->PLEX->ISK->character bazaar), uber weapons and modules that are enormously more powerful than anything 99.999% of population can reasonably afford or risk (USD->PLEX->ISK->estamel's invulneravility field). So why don't you just let CCP have this and people who either don't care about the cash or are stupid enough to blow the money on an advantage that simply exposes them to a higher monetary risk? Nubs in EVE can already buy a 75b nightmare (equivalent to 200 plex or about $3400 USD in CCP PLEX sale price), which sure is much more powerful than many other ships. I think the foundation of EVE is power/ISK and risk management, not absolute power. The uber nubs will be outnumbered and slaughtered and will lose their precious AUR. Better kill board mail for you, more money for CCP, Nothing to cry about. As long as CCP doesn't start selling uber ammo for super cheap in AUR... who cares? Nothing new. PvP outcome is still mainly going to be based on skill and numbers. If you want to feel powerful based on your time investment into the game and you feel like your hard work and advantage is being taken away by introduction of potential time shortcuts, EVE is not a game for you and has never been. WoW is. Also nothing will substitute for actual play experience. PvP in EVE is often not about absolute power but better intel, fitting and fleet command. I do find the fact that AUR prices are not aligned to an even number of PLEX a super cheap move on CCP part. It forces you to spend double in AUR on some items. Cheap and rather disgusting marketing trick. I also think selling SP is not in CCP's interest as people will get bored of the game quicker if they can get all the uber power fast. Also, AUR items can be sold on contracts, so the USD->PLEX->ISK->AUR->ISK->whatever is a closed loop and doesn't really change anything except providing opportunities for profit for AUR item resellers. The PLEX->ISK->AUR loop is closed even though AUR can't be directly traded back for PLEX or ISK. Nothing new here, move on.
Linar Mardolak Minmatar Phlogiston Absorption	Posted - 2011.06.28 03:16:00 - [328] Originally by: Velvet Dream hurf blurf PLEX is exactly the same as AUR Yeah, try starting another worthless General thread for that, like the other 433987 identical ones that are shot down every couple of minutes. The topic here is "CCP's Financial Situation". Do you have some insight into their burn rate, or whether PLEX are deferred income in the financial documents?
Rainer Unsinn	Posted - 2011.06.28 03:42:00 - [329] Originally by: Slymah I would support a "donate" button over MT's There is one: buy PLEX, trash it.
Rowbin Hod InterSun Freelance The Forsaken.	Posted - 2011.06.28 05:11:00 - [330] Originally by: Josh Bolder LMAO guys i seriously doubt this is real the audit goes from january 1st to dec 31 companies year end usually crosses over e.g. 2010/11. they had 300,000 accounts (which they had more of last year) at $20 a pop = 72 million dollars, not 50 million. I only skim read it so I am not sure, but It is an audit so could have a lot of other paper work we cant see. But i do no wages are a cost of sale and seemed to be missing from the gross profit Companies often align their year end with tax years in their country (eg in UK a disproportionate number of companies have YE of march 31st as the tax year ends on April 5th). But it's by no means a requirement, and you can make your company year end whenever you want.

Yarrrrrhh	Posted - 2011.06.28 05:14:00 - [331] Originally by: Asmodeus Et'Mort So one question to all you accounting boffins out there, Isnt plex a liability to the company that should be included in these figures? Apparently they are. Read the FHC thread at page 9 or so.
Benri Konpaku	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:19:00 - [332] Originally by: Grog Barrel Originally by: Xinxua Originally by: Yarrrrrhh Originally by: Lug Thorne So really their short term financial future depends on keeping Eve going? After jeopardizing it with WoD and Dust. That's how it looks to me. Yes sticking to one product line and not expanding into new markets is the best way to expand your company. why would you expand your company if you are doing well to begin with. Same reason stupid people buy cars they can't afford even if their "old" car is working perfectly fine and saving them money after it's already been paid for I guess. In businesses some people seems to think if a company isn't growing in size and market share it's stalling. When ironically the pursuit of unrealistic growth is what kills so many companies with promising futures. Greed is Good! (Even if it leaves you broke and with a huge debt.)
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:30:00 - [333] The report says they recognize subscription revenue on a straight line basis over the time the subscription is paid for. This means PLEXes that are not yet redeemed should fall under unrecognized revenue as they can't have started recognizing it yet per these rules. This puts an upper limit on PLEX liability at around $3 million. This is not really a problem. They already have the money. A PLEX credited to an account will make the balance sheet look about $15 prettier because the PLEX would be moved from liabilities to equity. It robs them of another opportunity to get money from you for that month but the reduction in income is still capped by the $3 million above. If you buy a PLEX now, their liabilities go up by one PLEX. However they also get a cash infusion of one PLEX at a time where they are burning cash, which is a good thing. You don't even have to trash the PLEXes or spend them on monocles. You're effectively giving them a loan.
Whyther	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:41:00 - [334] I'm also a bit concerned about the $4M+ in goodwill that hasn't been impaired in the last two fiscal cycles. Honestly, that's one of the first red flags we look for during an audit. It doesn't necessarily mean something is wrong, but lack of impairemens on assets is a good indicator that a company is buffering its numbers for end-of-year reports. Also, IFRS is a lot more forgiving than GAAP when it comes to allowing companies to make "judgement" calls on how to report certain items.
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:51:00 - [335] Originally by: Whyther I'm also a bit concerned about the $4M+ in goodwill that hasn't been impaired in the last two fiscal cycles. I don't know if we have any indication that it would actually be reduced. They acquired White Wolf and their IP before the current emovampire rage.
Whyther	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:58:00 - [336] Aye, didn't say it was impossible, just unusual, and a red flag. Impairments are tricky, and can never be reversed. Most corps wait until they absolutely have to recognize them, to do so. And as I said IFRS is a lot more lenient than GAAP.
Ryea Eripmav Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.06.28 07:01:00 - [337] I've read a few of the responses on the first page and all I have to say is I love that I was right about the EVE community. I wrote the following letter as a comment to one of EVE-Online posts on Facebook. It reads as follows: Originally by: My Facebook Comment on June 25 Dear CCP, Here's an idea. Try and make good use of another growing business trend/model: Social responsibility. The way I try to put this into play as a consumer is by paying a fair price for the goods and services provided and repeating my business. I will ♦ willingly pay more ♦ if it means that 1) I get more of your quality goods and services and 2) your reputation and business model/culture is sustained and propagated as "good business." My experience with EVE Online, thus partly why I enjoy it so much, has been that the player-base is [caring and] mature. Test and see if the players don't latch onto the idea of taking care of you as you take care of us, preserving the integrity of and sustaining the existence of your company. Set the tone, tell us your hopes for and expectations of the players and we can help you to blaze trails with our MMORPG player culture, conduct and attitude. From where I sit, that's a powerful thing! CCP -if you really want to grow and expand, look to the player-base you have nurtured. We fight so vehemently because we ♥ LOVE ♥ this game and what you have given us so very much. I'm sure I'm not the only one that adores the CCP culture and innovations we read about in the dev blogs and gaming magazines: Some of them compel me to feel ♦ PROUD ♦ to be part of that as a patron of your offerings. I would be more than happy to combine my EVE subscription with a DUST514 subscription, say for $3-5 more a month or something. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Regarding micro-Transactions, my personal stance is this: So long as micro-transaction inventory is limited to "fluff", as one person in the Fearless newsletter puts it, I take no issue with the system. When players can outright pay for an advantage, that's where I draw the line. I haveadored EVE (got that CCP? EVE is my first, one and only MMORPG love) because it doesn't have a micro-transaction system that allows whiny, impatient, intellectually-challenged people to pay for big guns, big advantages and the ability to grief others through their monetary might. I can't turn a blind-eye toward which has paved the way for micro- transactions: PLEX. From where I sit, PLEX has been a testbed for micro-transactions, and thus far, I'm sure it has proven to be quite successful. But it is nonetheless an essentially roundabout way of legally purchasing ISK, and thus an advantage, but what's done is done. It cannot be undone. But I cannot advocate taking it further than what already exists, so please don't press the matter. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ♥, A Smitten CCP patron ----------------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) The Bunny strikes again, on his way to world domination. "...The bunny, the bunny Oh! I love the bunny..."
Zeta Kalin Large Rodent Hunters	Posted - 2011.06.28 07:02:00 - [338] Originally by: Saving Face Originally by: Whyther I'm also a bit concerned about the $4M+ in goodwill that hasn't been impaired in the last two fiscal cycles. I don't know if we have any indication that it would actually be reduced. They acquired White Wolf and their IP before the current emovampire rage. WoD Vampires are more Ann Rice's than Stephenie Meyer's. Not the same crowd at all. -- I do have a few expensive suits. However I'm pretty sure none is more expensive than an aircraft carrier.
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.28 07:07:00 - [339] Yeah I just think they will want to wait with the impairment of White Wolf goodwill until they know how profitable WoD is. Since that gives them a benchmark for the value of their IP.
kari bourza	Posted - 2011.06.28 07:08:00 - [340] They sure as hell not going to make as much money from selling indestructible fluff items, how many monocles can one buy or want to own ? and even the increase of subscriptions from incarna hype is gone with the wind, no body is going to join a game with such a poisonous atmosphere, so what do we have left ? non fluffy items ! which mean either way EVE is ****ed, i do hope i'm wrong

Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.28 07:17:00 - [341] Oh they don't need to make much money. They only need to show that they can milk us for more cash. It doesn't actually have to be a lot since they are just starting. So if all goes well, they will straight out tell the CSM they are desperate for cash. The CSM will help them find ways to milk us in a way that will not pee all over those customers who don't want to be milked. A realistic guess I think would be cheaper clothes appearing in the NEX. If they can see profit in that sort of thing then the CSM might be able to extract a promise about non-vanity MT, which would cause the rage to subside. With no rage and very little profits from MT they would still have shown a potential to increase profits so I don't quite understand why they didn't do that in the first place. Also you know how it is with predictions that start out with "if all goes well". If CCP decides on being :ccp: they will flat out refuse everything the CSM could possibly ask for and go full MT. They may even be able to show a profit from that - I don't know how forum rage translates to lost subscription income. EVE might no longer be the game we're playing right now (or not). But it might well become another game that is more profitable than EVE is right now. The sad part is that EVE on its own is profitable. They overestimated their strength with regard to Dust and WoD and now have to milk EVE to fix it, or sell some of their assets. Since their assets are mostly code they wrote, that can't mean anything good either.
Aelius Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2011.06.28 07:20:00 - [342] Seriously... hire me. -I know the game from the start -I know exactly why players care so much about EVE. -I know for a fact that cheap vanity items means more people buying them (10000@2Ç =20000Ç > 42@60Ç =2520Ç) Example "League of Legends" -Don't ever sell game advantage items in MT. It's against why players care so much about EVE. -Reinforce bot and RMT fight. -Empower the players by letting them invest in EVE by buying CCP stocks. (you never know which of us are RL millionaires, remember that Samuel L. Jackson plays EVE) -But most important don't lie to us, don't use cloak device T3 to hide stupid plans to MT game advantage items. Be honest, and if in trouble simply ask for our help and we won't refuse to give it. -Again... BE HONEST WITH US. ___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood
Lemmy Kravitz Minmatar Rebirth.	Posted - 2011.06.28 07:47:00 - [343] Dust is going to fail miserably as a title too much competition between monster titles like HALO, COD, MOH, BF ------------------------------------------------- "Vae Victis" -Brennus
Tippia Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.28 08:05:00 - [344] Originally by: Velvet Dream I frankly don't understand what all the rage is about. You can already buy SP for USD (USD->PLEX->ISK->character bazaar), uber weapons and modules that are enormously more powerful than anything 99.999% of population can reasonably afford or risk (USD->PLEX->ISK->estamel's invulneravility field). So why don't you just let CCP have this and people who either don't care about the cash or are stupid enough to blow the money on an advantage that simply exposes them to a higher monetary risk? Because there are fundamental differences between PLEX and MT. All the things you've mentioned are subject to in-game limitations when it comes to supply, and they are all part of the in-game economy. MT bypasses all of that and injects value into the economy in a way PLEX does not. So yes, it's very new and not comparable to what PLEX lets you do. Originally by: Josh Bolder I have not seen this supposed annual report, but you all seem to be speculating on a cash flow forecast. Which may have many varying aspects, not to forget that the engines (Carbon) and code, itself will be sold to other markets e.g. the quake engine or the Unreal Engine and many more. Originally by: Terminal Insanity Huh, i guess ID Software, Valve Software, Epic Games, Turbine, etc, etc, never got that memo. Good thing we've got these brilliant eve players here to show these industry fools how to run a corp! I'll bet they'll be glad to know they need to stop selling game engines. àand again, no, it will not be sold to other markets. ôThe Carbon Framework is used by CCP to create virtual worlds, and not intended or available for licensing.ö They have decided (and clearly communicated) that Carbon is their magic sauce that gives them a competitive edge. Reversing that decision and starting to license it to third-party developers would be a huge step. At best, you can become (essentially) a local-market CCP game franchise, buy you can't get the engine to build your own game. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP
Andrei Vassaliev Cursed Inc. Not Found.	Posted - 2011.06.28 09:12:00 - [345] Edited by: Andrei Vassaliev on 28/06/2011 09:12:47 Originally by: Yarrrrrhh They will have to repay a large loan later this year which will require most of their cash assets therefore they'd have to take another loan or sell parts of their company. For that to be feasible though CCP has to show that it's making a profit and apparently they're trying to use MT to make their cash flow problem look less serious. Which explains pretty much everything that CCP has done, said and hinted at so far. TL;DR Dust and WoD are burning too much cash and therefore CCP needs to show that microtransactions can work in EVE so they can convince banks/investors to give them a cash injection. Ideally yesterday. So, CCP is burning the money we give them monthly, not to work on EVE Online, but to develop a FPS game on PS3 and a Vampire MMO? If only we had some good expansions on EVE Online, it could be ok. But this last 2 years we got unfinished and/or useless expansions. I don't pay 26Ç/month to subsidize the development of Dust 514, nor World of Darkness, but to play a MMO spaceship game. I don't care about these other games, nor about the financial issues due to a questionable strategy of CCP. Focus on EVE Online, that's what we pay for
edith prickley	Posted - 2011.06.28 09:27:00 - [346] Originally by: Grog Barrel Originally by: Xinxua Originally by: Yarrrrrhh Originally by: Lug Thorne So really their short term financial future depends on keeping Eve going? After jeopardizing it with WoD and Dust. That's how it looks to me. Yes sticking to one product line and not expanding into new markets is the best way to expand your company. why would you expand your company if you are doing well to begin with. Probably safety from having all their eggs in one basket. Right now, CCP enjoys a monopoly in a niche market. But that could change quickly. If another developer steps in with a single-sharded economic sandbox and provides a bit of extra polish over what CCP is offering (which wouldn't be hard), they could pull a large fraction of EVE users who are perpetually on the verge of quitting but just have nowhere else to go for a similar experience at the moment. So once they were on solid economic footing and had good cash flow coming in, it made sense to try to look for alternative money-makers -- not necessarily out of greed, but to give their company a more secure footing in case the golden goose stops laying eggs. But at that point, a number of decisions stop making sense to me. An FPS doesn't play to any of CCP's strengths, unless they have some hidden talents we're not aware of. The WoD IP seems of questionable value, and I just don't see that CCP's the company who can make something work in that genre. Vampires are supposed to be cool, and sorry CCP, but "a man's gotta know his limitations." In any case, while you're looking for new ventures, unless you are very sure of their success and want to do acrobatics without a safety net, your first priority still has to be to maintain the customers who have been paying the bills all along. CCP looks to be playing on riskier side of this line. Anyhow, I think you can't blame them for looking into other investments, every company does it. But it's hard to understand, for me at least, many of the investment choices they've made.
Liam Snow	Posted - 2011.06.28 09:35:00 - [347] Does ANYONE know what the source of these documents are? I have looked everywhere and all I can find are documents from 2008... While these documents are available to the public there are other documents released yearly in conjunction to this. If anyone could find the origin of this, and thus the location of the other documents.
Kristina Vanszar Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.28 09:39:00 - [348] FFS i'd **ing donate 500 Ç for eve if needed, why not just ask, stay clear "hey guys we in trouble, need help" Sell **ing share to your customers -> problem solved.
Zombatar	Posted - 2011.06.28 09:44:00 - [349] Originally by: Liam Snow Does ANYONE know what the source of these documents are? I have looked everywhere and all I can find are documents from 2008... While these documents are available to the public there are other documents released yearly in conjunction to this. If anyone could find the origin of this, and thus the location of the other documents. See this thread, you got the report from end of 2010. Click on start reading.
Kuronaga Kantian Principle	Posted - 2011.06.28 09:54:00 - [350] They could just stop production of WoD (which everyone knows is going to fail) and focus purely on eve/dust. I suppose thats making too much sense though.

edith prickley	Posted - 2011.06.28 09:55:00 - [351] Edited by: edith prickley on 28/06/2011 10:00:29 Originally by: Kristina Vanszar FFS i'd **ing donate 500 Ç for eve if needed, why not just ask, stay clear "hey guys we in trouble, need help" Sell **ing share to your customers -> problem solved. Does this look like a good investment to you? What fundamental problems does it solve which will not recur six months from now? You are currently paying $180/year for EVE. Are you getting your money's worth? Regardless of whether you can afford it, is $180+$500 really a fair price for this game? What has CCP done to earn their bonus? When someone in Jita-local says "hey guys we in trouble, need help," how do you respond?
Artemidoros Dark Crystal Research	Posted - 2011.06.28 09:58:00 - [352] Not sure if its been brought up before, but would commercial endorsements work? I wouldn't mind wearing a "Nike" or "Adidas" shirt if it meant that CCP would get more monies for new/more content designers. Surely there would be money to be made if possible that way? Hell even seeing a blimp flying around the hanger spamming Subway/McDonald's or Coke/Pepsi insignia wouldn't hurt.
Takseen	Posted - 2011.06.28 10:04:00 - [353] Originally by: Josh Bolder LMAO guys i seriously doubt this is real the audit goes from january 1st to dec 31 companies year end usually crosses over e.g. 2010/11. they had 300,000 accounts (which they had more of last year) at $20 a pop = 72 million dollars, not 50 million. I only skim read it so I am not sure, but It is an audit so could have a lot of other paper work we cant see. But i do no wages are a cost of sale and seemed to be missing from the gross profit This is a shopped audit, I can tell from some of the numbers and because I no wages.
Katra Novac	Posted - 2011.06.28 10:06:00 - [354] Originally by: Takseen Originally by: Josh Bolder LMAO guys i seriously doubt this is real the audit goes from january 1st to dec 31 companies year end usually crosses over e.g. 2010/11. they had 300,000 accounts (which they had more of last year) at $20 a pop = 72 million dollars, not 50 million. I only skim read it so I am not sure, but It is an audit so could have a lot of other paper work we cant see. But i do no wages are a cost of sale and seemed to be missing from the gross profit This is a shopped audit, I can tell from some of the numbers and because I no wages. You 'no wages' are you saying you don't have an income?
Kuronaga Kantian Principle	Posted - 2011.06.28 10:07:00 - [355] Not sure why some of you are encouraging the idea of appealing to CCP and helping them out. They have made it clear that they wish to over extend the expansion of the company foolishly and without longterm foresight. They have made it doubly clear that the answer for their mistake is to sacrifice the game that got them to where they are. Why should any of you want to help them? They made a long series of mistakes -- let them pay for it. Doing anything else just encourages them to continue abusing their fanbase.
RaTTuS BIG Gentlemen's Agreement	Posted - 2011.06.28 10:08:00 - [356] Jeeze, I thought rumour threads where banned anyway, people in this thread are pulling figures out of dark places for FUD reasons - OP and failblog are just mentally wrong on so many fronts [and no I dont work for ccp] Join BIG
Katra Novac	Posted - 2011.06.28 10:09:00 - [357] Originally by: Kuronaga Not sure why some of you are encouraging the idea of appealing to CCP and helping them out. They have made it clear that they wish to over extend the expansion of the company foolishly and without longterm foresight. They have made it doubly clear that the answer for their mistake is to sacrifice the game that got them to where they are. Why should any of you want to help them? They made a long series of mistakes -- let them pay for it. Doing anything else just encourages them to continue abusing their fanbase. Yeah, they have to take the responsibility for their actions, just like anyone else.
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.28 10:20:00 - [358] Originally by: Katra Novac Yeah, they have to take the responsibility for their actions, just like anyone else. Sure, but that doesn't mean we want EVE to stop if we can help it.
Cataca	Posted - 2011.06.28 10:23:00 - [359] Im not exactly qualified but tbh, i dont see the issue here. They are relatively debt light and just have an issue with cashflow. Assuming that DUST will stop eating funds and generate some kind of profit they should easily be in the green again. That said, they will have to find a new investor before october.
edith prickley	Posted - 2011.06.28 10:31:00 - [360] Originally by: Saving Face Originally by: Katra Novac Yeah, they have to take the responsibility for their actions, just like anyone else. Sure, but that doesn't mean we want EVE to stop if we can help it. Are you paying for your subscription? Then you are doing all that is required of you. If CCP can't manage your subscription money, throwing more money at them won't solve that problem.

Takseen	Posted - 2011.06.28 10:44:00 - [361] Originally by: edith prickley Originally by: Saving Face Originally by: Katra Novac Yeah, they have to take the responsibility for their actions, just like anyone else. Sure, but that doesn't mean we want EVE to stop if we can help it. Are you paying for your subscription? Then you are doing all that is required of you. If CCP can't manage your subscription money, throwing more money at them won't solve that problem. If you really wanted to show support for CCP, you could just buy a bunch of timecodes and convert them to PLEX, switch to a longer term subscription plan, or buy another account. A donation button isn't necessary anyway.
Vincentus	Posted - 2011.06.28 10:47:00 - [362] Originally by: Saving Face Originally by: Katra Novac Yeah, they have to take the responsibility for their actions, just like anyone else. Sure, but that doesn't mean we want EVE to stop if we can help it. Well, EVE itself is a profitable venture, so if CCP fails to get some investors crazy enough to start the cash pump or if this doesn't happen, fails to put WoD in Captain's Closet (including all the employees that are working on that, which is not an easy decision to make) to get their cashflow to make sense again and all this fail does lead to bankruptcy, it is very likely that another game company will buy EVE and continue the franchise. How this would work out for the game itself and the community is a big unknown of course. In theory, you could also get a group of eve fans together to get the money together,and have them buy EVE if CCP goes out the window. Eve being taken over by players would be pretty awesome in my own humble opinion (but 100M plus is big moniez...)
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.28 10:47:00 - [363] I have no doubt they can manage their subscription income. EVE itself is profitable and Dust will no doubt* be profitable when it comes out. No problem at all. *you can read that in whichever way you want
Lederstrumpf	Posted - 2011.06.28 10:58:00 - [364] Originally by: Yarrrrrhh They will have to repay a large loan later this year which will require most of their cash assets therefore they'd have to take another loan or sell parts of their company. They could always start selling company shares to players for AURUM.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 11:23:00 - [365] Originally by: Saving Face I have no doubt they can manage their subscription income. EVE itself is profitable and Dust will no doubt* be profitable when it comes out. No problem at all. *you can read that in whichever way you want You can dress it up all you want, fact is they are operating on too thin a cash liquidity, depending on bonds issued to creditors for 11 million dollars for cash liquidity is NOT a good IDEA either way you put the lipstick on the pig. Dust is a year away, WoD is 2 or 3 years out. Expansions suffer and thus the customers suffer. They NEED Microtransations to AGRESSIVELY BOOST REVENUE and FAST. There is no hiding that fact. What they should have done with that bond issuance is to use that money to BUY A PROFITABLE COMPANY and USE THE PROFITS OFF THAT to payback the bond on maturity and then use the rest to boost cash liquidy and for their RnD investments. Only an idiot that lives on the edge wrecklessly depends on loans.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 11:37:00 - [366] Even with VANITY ONLY items, no way can CCP make up the revenue at their current rate, priced too high they flop, priced to low, they wont sell enough volume. Sub increases wont cover it either. BUY A PROFITABLE SMALL COMPANY CCP USE THEIR PROFITS TO BAIL YOU OUT. You know its the STABLE thing to do.
Boaz Hedion Merkava	Posted - 2011.06.28 11:47:00 - [367] Originally by: Miilla Even with VANITY ONLY items, no way can CCP make up the revenue at their current rate, priced too high they flop, priced to low, they wont sell enough volume. Sub increases wont cover it either. BUY A PROFITABLE SMALL COMPANY CCP USE THEIR PROFITS TO BAIL YOU OUT. You know its the STABLE thing to do. yeah, uhm hi. could you please stop using yellow for everything? it's really lame and stuff. Thanks.
Arm Smith	Posted - 2011.06.28 11:53:00 - [368] Seems like even if ccp survives the october date, it will still only be a mater of time till thins go totaly pete tong. This is prob a slightly WOW there cowboy sugestion. But should dust be cancelled? as a game, is it gonna be a big earner? personaly, i don't see it. FPS is a mega competative market with COD and MW dominating it. What does dust bring to the market that isn't there aleady? What steps it away from anything else? a link to another game while great for marketing wont make any difference if the game doesn't grab you by the ankles, throw you round the room then headshot you for good measure. Is it time that Dust gets the put on the 'on hold for a rainy day' shelf, and the cost savings made. I'm sure alot of the staff could transfer over to eve delopment which will help improve eve.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 11:53:00 - [369] Originally by: Boaz Hedion Merkava Originally by: Miilla Even with VANITY ONLY items, no way can CCP make up the revenue at their current rate, priced too high they flop, priced to low, they wont sell enough volume. Sub increases wont cover it either. BUY A PROFITABLE SMALL COMPANY CCP USE THEIR PROFITS TO BAIL YOU OUT. You know its the STABLE thing to do. yeah, uhm hi. could you please stop using yellow for everything? it's really lame and stuff. Thanks. Sure, how much AUR you willing to PAY?
Uncle KiddyFiddler	Posted - 2011.06.28 11:54:00 - [370] Surely the icelandic banks will bail them out.No wait....

Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:01:00 - [371] Originally by: Arm Smith Seems like even if ccp survives the october date, it will still only be a mater of time till thins go totaly pete tong. Okay, first, it will only be a matter of time if you assume that Dust isn't profitable. We don't know that yet. CCP will be running their business based on the assumption that Dust will be profitable, otherwise it would make no sense to develop it. Assuming nothing else changes, to survive until Dust launches, they need to raise around $20 million more this year than last year. The $12 million loan needs to be refinanced, cash burn of $8.5 in 2011 needs to be absorbed and there needs to be a buffer of unknown size for the part of next year before Dust turns profitable and potential cost to releasing a new game on the PS3 via retail. This is not that bad. Quote: This is prob a slightly WOW there cowboy sugestion. But should dust be cancelled? Financially, this would have a big impact on the balance sheet because the code they wrote for Dust is currently an asset. If it turns out it has no value after all, they'd have to write it down resulting in a huge paper deficit (but not actually in losing hard cash). Kind of like "oops, that $30 million worth of code we thought we had? Turns out it's worth less than a shuttle." The other side of it is that they would have to downsize considerably and it's hard to predict how that will work out even for EVE, knowing how little we've been getting in the way of fixes and new content recently. If Dust fails they will have to do this anyway, but if you are concerned about EVE, what you would hope for is that it doesn't so that CCP doesn't fall apart.
Arm Smith	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:10:00 - [372] Originally by: Saving Face Originally by: Arm Smith Seems like even if ccp survives the october date, it will still only be a mater of time till thins go totaly pete tong. Okay, first, it will only be a matter of time if you assume that Dust isn't profitable. We don't know that yet. CCP will be running their business based on the assumption that Dust will be profitable, otherwise it would make no sense to develop it. Assuming nothing else changes, to survive until Dust launches, they need to raise around $20 million more this year than last year. The $12 million loan needs to be refinanced, cash burn of $8.5 in 2011 needs to be absorbed and there needs to be a buffer of unknown size for the part of next year before Dust turns profitable and potential cost to releasing a new game on the PS3 via retail. This is not that bad. Quote: This is prob a slightly WOW there cowboy sugestion. But should dust be cancelled? Financially, this would have a big impact on the balance sheet because the code they wrote for Dust is currently an asset. If it turns out it has no value after all, they'd have to write it down resulting in a huge paper deficit (but not actually in losing hard cash). Kind of like "oops, that $30 million worth of code we thought we had? Turns out it's worth less than a shuttle." The other side of it is that they would have to downsize considerably and it's hard to predict how that will work out even for EVE, knowing how little we've been getting in the way of fixes and new content recently. If Dust fails they will have to do this anyway, but if you are concerned about EVE, what you would hope for is that it doesn't so that CCP doesn't fall apart. Putting the project on hold, won't alter the asset value of the code, just freeze it and stop the cost of ongoing development. Thats the saving. As far as downsizing, afraid in the current economy it might have to go that way, if the money made by eve are being chanelled else where then it will return that development costs back into eve to bring that back, the affects of that remain to be seen. Alot of companies have had to pull development funding on projects (programs or real world projects) in order to stabalise the books. Taking out a loan in a hope that something will take off is not a good business model with such a risky venture.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:10:00 - [373] Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 12:12:49 Originally by: Saving Face Originally by: Arm Smith Seems like even if ccp survives the october date, it will still only be a mater of time till thins go totaly pete tong. Okay, first, it will only be a matter of time if you assume that Dust isn't profitable. We don't know that yet. CCP will be running their business based on the assumption that Dust will be profitable, otherwise it would make no sense to develop it. Assuming nothing else changes, to survive until Dust launches, they need to raise around $20 million more this year than last year. The $12 million loan needs to be refinanced, cash burn of $8.5 in 2011 needs to be absorbed and there needs to be a buffer of unknown size for the part of next year before Dust turns profitable and potential cost to releasing a new game on the PS3 via retail. This is not that bad. Quote: This is prob a slightly WOW there cowboy sugestion. But should dust be cancelled? Financially, this would have a big impact on the balance sheet because the code they wrote for Dust is currently an asset. If it turns out it has no value after all, they'd have to write it down resulting in a huge paper deficit (but not actually in losing hard cash). Kind of like "oops, that $30 million worth of code we thought we had? Turns out it's worth less than a shuttle." The other side of it is that they would have to downsize considerably and it's hard to predict how that will work out even for EVE, knowing how little we've been getting in the way of fixes and new content recently. If Dust fails they will have to do this anyway, but if you are concerned about EVE, what you would hope for is that it doesn't so that CCP doesn't fall apart. An asset that is making no money currently , infact an asset that is COSTING money. They got a loan based on their bond issuance. Again I think they should have used that money to buy a PROFITABLE company and use that for their projects, not living on bond issuances. That is the stable and smart way to do it for the long term, start buying profitable companies into the CCP group and then they would have a better position totally for all this RnD instead they took the HIGH RISK path of loans and bleed with MONEY OUT = MONEY IN. I think they also made a mistake of trying to grow too fast in headcount. Very foolish
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:16:00 - [374] Originally by: Miilla Again I think they should have used that money to buy a PROFITABLE company and use that for their projects, not living on bond issuances. I don't know, that's pretty much standard practice. You take out a loan in order to work on a product that will then generate income above what you need to repay the loan. Most businesses do this because bootstrapping from a garage only works rarely. Quote: I think they also made a mistake of trying to grow too fast in headcount. They aren't growing organically, at least.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:18:00 - [375] Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 12:20:53 Originally by: Saving Face Originally by: Miilla Again I think they should have used that money to buy a PROFITABLE company and use that for their projects, not living on bond issuances. I don't know, that's pretty much standard practice. You take out a loan in order to work on a product that will then generate income above what you need to repay the loan. Most businesses do this because bootstrapping from a garage only works rarely. Quote: I think they also made a mistake of trying to grow too fast in headcount. They aren't growing organically, at least. Its not standard in the companies I know lol Then again they had very smart business people running them, not foolish living on the edge people which seems to be prevelant in the games industry. PS: These companies where not garrage companies either, sure operating at a loss yearly during RnD but not in debt and they even sub letted their offices to make them cost NOTHING to rent.
Shanti Dupriez Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:20:00 - [376] Originally by: Uncle KiddyFiddler Surely the icelandic banks will bail them out.No wait.... Does seem to be the way to do business in Iceland doesn't it..
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:22:00 - [377] Spin White Wolf off and sell it. They took on to much and have overextended. What I see of the NEX so far will never produce revenue sufficient to guarantee any loan. Poorly thought out really. Low cost destructible items was the way to go. Instead of 60 monocles you might of sold 10000 1$ dresses/pants. I know many folks were willing to spend money on these items until they saw what are ridiculous prices. I'm very serious about this it was a horrible roll out and really whoever did the market research and set the prices for this fiasco should be fired, they couldn't possibly have a business degree from any reputable university. To work in MT you have to have many low cost items that can appeal to a significant portion of your player base. In EVE keeping with the harsh reality making them destructible but low cost would be in keeping with the game and ensures they have to buy new ones. There are two ways to solve a spending problem. 1. You increase revenue. Ever the popular measure of politicians at least til they can't print anymore money.....CCP not being a government can't print its own money so. 2. You decrease spending. What's working you keep, what's not you put on the short list of things that could be cut until you reduce spending sufficiently to enter the black. A small increase in revenue might be tolerated by the majority of players, thus helping to cut down on cuts needed. But ultimately CCP higher management has stretched themselves to far and are almost to the point they can't fix it in time.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:29:00 - [378] Originally by: El'Niaga Spin White Wolf off and sell it. They took on to much and have overextended. What I see of the NEX so far will never produce revenue sufficient to guarantee any loan. Poorly thought out really. Low cost destructible items was the way to go. Instead of 60 monocles you might of sold 10000 1$ dresses/pants. I know many folks were willing to spend money on these items until they saw what are ridiculous prices. I'm very serious about this it was a horrible roll out and really whoever did the market research and set the prices for this fiasco should be fired, they couldn't possibly have a business degree from any reputable university. To work in MT you have to have many low cost items that can appeal to a significant portion of your player base. In EVE keeping with the harsh reality making them destructible but low cost would be in keeping with the game and ensures they have to buy new ones. There are two ways to solve a spending problem. 1. You increase revenue. Ever the popular measure of politicians at least til they can't print anymore money.....CCP not being a government can't print its own money so. 2. You decrease spending. What's working you keep, what's not you put on the short list of things that could be cut until you reduce spending sufficiently to enter the black. A small increase in revenue might be tolerated by the majority of players, thus helping to cut down on cuts needed. But ultimately CCP higher management has stretched themselves to far and are almost to the point they can't fix it in time. Or buy some profitable companies that make profit AND LEAVE THEM ALONE TO CONTINUE TO MAKE PROFIT dont feck them up too lol Sublet your Office space, then you have basically nullified your rent expenditure. DO NOT GO PUBLIC, YOU WILL DIE to SHORTS ( I certinally would short CCP heavy lol ) Change all your energy usage to low power, change your energy provider, hell same power cables, lower bills. Many many ways to reduce costs and boost revenue.
Markus Vasquez	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:35:00 - [379] The current subscription fee is what, $20 a month? Raise it by five dollars, a twenty-five percent increase in profits. I wouldn't mind paying a few dollars more if it means the devs won't go out of business.
LottoFreek Freeky Lottos	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:35:00 - [380] Originally by: Slymah I would support a "donate" button over MT's This actually... Join my in game mailing list - Freeky Lottos

Portmanteau Gallente CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:36:00 - [381] Meh I've decided not to get involved with those financial threads (after a few initial trollpoast) as 1. everyone seems to be an expert and yet has wildly differing opinions 2. going on and on about how forked CCP's finances are on a public website runs the (albeit slight) risk of becoming a self fulfilling prophecy if the story starts to run away with itself. No matter how much "burn CCP ! burn them with fire!!!" rage I may have, making them fail (or at least tipping over the edge of the precipice they created) is not something I would be proud of, esp since there are a lot of innocent members of staff who would be forked if CCP go ** up. If they go ** up thru persisting with this arrogant stance and lose subs then fair enough, but ... well you get my drift.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:42:00 - [382] Originally by: Markus Vasquez The current subscription fee is what, $20 a month? Raise it by five dollars, a twenty-five percent increase in profits. I wouldn't mind paying a few dollars more if it means the devs won't go out of business. Eve is overpriced on subs already. Compared to competitors (Perpetuum). They raise it, they lose subs too. Have fun in your smaller universe.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:45:00 - [383] Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 12:45:15 CSM is already AGREEING TO NON VANITY ITEMS
EL TITAN Caldari Red Sky Morning BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:46:00 - [384] well, they are not getting another dime from me.. knowing now that the protest could actually cause them to hurt financially as well as publicly only gives me more insensitive to continue............... UNTIL WE GET THE MAGIC WORDS... THERE WILL NEVER EVER 10000% CAST IRON PROMISE AND WARRANTY THERE WILL NOT BE MICRO TRANSACTIONS... only three days left on my account.
Shintai Gallente Arx Io Orbital Factories Arx Io	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:51:00 - [385] Good luck for the CCP employees. Since most of you will need to find new jobs. Perhaps change what you work with completely. Best wishes. -------------------------------------- Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Ford Mersombre	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:58:00 - [386] I'd happily kick in an extra couple bucks a month to keep all the BS micro-transactions out of the game completely. Perhaps they could just sell off WoD and focus on EVE? :)
Ulmega	Posted - 2011.06.28 13:02:00 - [387] If I would win the lottery I would invest in CCP on the condition hey drop WOD, CCP has no place in fantasy games beside it is not part of the EVE universe which is where the focus should be.
Lyrrashae Minmatar Crushed Ambitions	Posted - 2011.06.28 14:43:00 - [388] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny And to think of how they could have had help digging themselves out of the hole they dug by just coming forward about it This, and post # 7. Further evidence that Hilmar at the very least needs to be sacked. The sheer, arrogant, deliberate myopia, combined with monumental incompetence--and overall grotesque mis-management in general, if GlassDoor is to be believed, deserve no less. How does one sack a CEO, though? One thing I'm curious about: Since when are we obligated to be milked so CCP can try and undo their self-inflicted financial troubles? If only they'd been honest, none of this would be happening, and I, for one, would quite happily pay CAD 25-30.00 (from CAD 20.00)/mo., plus donate a PLEX or three when I could afford to, to help 'em out, and it seems I'm not the only one so willing. These condescending, craven, lying sacks of ****e, on the other hand, can go eat a handful of live maggots and die.
Mak Gruber Lone Star Privateers Drop the Hammer	Posted - 2011.06.28 14:44:00 - [389] Originally by: Ulmega If I would win the lottery I would invest in CCP on the condition hey drop WOD, CCP has no place in fantasy games beside it is not part of the EVE universe which is where the focus should be. EvE is a fantasy game, sorry to break it to you.
Boaz Hedion Merkava	Posted - 2011.06.28 14:55:00 - [390] Originally by: Portmanteau Meh I've decided not to get involved with those financial threads (after a few initial trollpoast) as 1. everyone seems to be an expert and yet has wildly differing opinions 2. going on and on about how forked CCP's finances are on a public website runs the (albeit slight) risk of becoming a self fulfilling prophecy if the story starts to run away with itself. No matter how much "burn CCP ! burn them with fire!!!" rage I may have, making them fail (or at least tipping over the edge of the precipice they created) is not something I would be proud of, esp since there are a lot of innocent members of staff who would be forked if CCP go ** up. If they go ** up thru persisting with this arrogant stance and lose subs then fair enough, but ... well you get my drift. Not only do I get what you're saying, I fully agree with it too. And to add to what you've said: this thread is ruined and well off track (well done miila!) and it is no longer in my interest to keep on reading.

Klokwerks	Posted - 2011.06.28 14:56:00 - [391] I guess CCP forgot the first rule of EVE - don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Almost, anyways. Those shiny new ships they're getting seem to make their Flagship sink.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 15:03:00 - [392] I'm voting YES on every game changing NEX item there is :) Hope you enjoy your paywall. I love surveys, glad the CSM chose to do one, I can keep making accounts to skew them in the PAYWALL favour :)
Viking Sven	Posted - 2011.06.28 15:07:00 - [393] Yeah this peeves me something fierce. If the ** from zulu didnt do it, and the ** from fuhrer hilmar didnt do it, then this is it. I am not paying for Dust. FCK THAT. Even though I own a PS3, I have zero intention of buying a MT FPS on the PS3, and I definitely have no intention of paying for the development of it out of my pocket. It's obvious CCP stole the devs/artists/etc. from Eve to cover Dust/WoD... severe lack of content and polish in the past few expansions shows that. Eve players have been paying for a half-assed job for too long. I'm sick of this ***. I've unsubbed 2 of my 3 accounts already, and am seriously considering unsubbing the third. CCP, give us what we pay for.
larry hotter bigpants	Posted - 2011.06.28 15:08:00 - [394] Edited by: larry hotter bigpants on 28/06/2011 15:10:52 Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 12:47:57 CSM is already AGREEING TO NON VANITY ITEMS I'm going to click YES to all NON VANITY items. Hope you enjoy the ride. Well it doesn't say that. I'm not disagreeing that they already know they will make conceissions, but where does it say that NON VANITY items WILL be sold on that forum? Frankly, if CCP want non vanity items, let them. Let the people left with that mess deal with it. All the sane people will have left and CCP will have less subscribers anyway. Really its their fault for not listening to us and doing dumb things with their money., I will NOT support them if they go MT Pay to Win. No one should. The game is no longer EVE, and if you want to be social have your friends find new games to play with them.
Wolf Kruol Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.28 15:09:00 - [395] What I love about this whole scandal is that we have to pay for there mistakes? They're dumbass decisions put them here. Why are loyal players have to pay more? Let it come out of there own pockets. We are all paying already. There are choices to pay more if players are wanting to pay by plex. Why is there a need to add a 3rd currency? Its not my responsibility to fix there ****ups. That's there problem and if they can't fix this issue. Those people responsible need to be removed so someone else can do the job correctly. I'm not going to pay more. My SUB closed and my term ends oct 11 good luck ccp with your dream. Charging there clients for there mistakes.. Its madness I say... In life I'm staring you. In death there I sent you.
Ra Vhim Black Bag Ops	Posted - 2011.06.28 15:10:00 - [396] I don't think we need to worry about CCP's economy. They will be fine. Many just want to really, really believe that they only take this MT path because they otherwise face doom, not that they do it because they want to milk us. People are just grasping for the last straw in our hopes that CCP still is the lovable company we have been so fond of all these years.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 15:30:00 - [397] Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 15:30:17 Originally by: Ra Vhim I don't think we need to worry about CCP's economy. They will be fine. Many just want to really, really believe that they only take this MT path because they otherwise face doom, not that they do it because they want to milk us. People are just grasping for the last straw in our hopes that CCP still is the lovable company we have been so fond of all these years. Im continuing to make accounts on failheap so I can skew the vote, keep voting FOR game change items YAY! Surveys are really accurate :)
Electra GaafCramo	Posted - 2011.06.28 15:34:00 - [398] Edited by: Electra GaafCramo on 28/06/2011 15:34:24 CCP's main problem atm is the lack of transparency. It would be smart of them to change to a new level of transparency, which is more suitable to their image. They create a believable transparent image of themselves. But when people find out that they have been sold this image on false premises, they get angry. CCP should become more transparent. It's human to have flaws. If you hide these flaws, we get ****ed when we find them ourselves. Whenever you a get touchy issue, throw it out in the open. Don't be shy of conflicts, postponing/ignoring conflicts is seemingly not working/backfiring.
Reiisha Splint Eye Probabilities Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.28 15:43:00 - [399] One solution would be to release Dust on PC. This should solve their monetary problems if they manage to release it early next year at the latest, and if they can get Sony to back off from any exclusivity deal they might have made with CCP. Making EVE more expensive will only result, ultimately, in a loss, since i'm 100% sure that they will not recoup Dust's development costs with a PS3 release only. WoD will have to be released next year aswell, depending on results with Dust. The only other option is to sell the Atlanta or Shanghai studios, though i doubt anyone will want to touch Dust at all at this point. I kind of feared this might be happening. Trying to fund 2 more games on the revenue of just one, coupled with the now legendary Icelandic indecisiveness (drawing development out far too long) is a recipe for disaster, but as has been mentioned before, the hubris from EVE's "success" may have blinded CCP. "If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
Grey Griff	Posted - 2011.06.28 15:53:00 - [400] I whould donate some money for example, but only if ccp will firmly say that there in eve will be no mt for game changing items, to be sure that with eve ewerything will be ok,i think that i not only one who would do this

Garreth Vlox Minmatar Obsidian Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.28 15:55:00 - [401] Originally by: Goauld Baal In other words some one at CCP left the check book open and out on the table and now they want there player base to make up what there lacking HAHAHAH yeah thats not going to happen THIS^^, now if this had been zulu's response dev blog instead of that bull**ting you post he put up we wouldn't have called for him to be burned at the stake, tho we probly still would have to you to get **ed because your inability to fiscally manage a company while sad and slightly pathetic is not our problem.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 16:13:00 - [402] Edited by: Miilla on 28/06/2011 16:13:05 Petition billing and accounting if you want your credit card details removed I got mine removed.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.28 16:46:00 - [403] Originally by: Tethys Atreides Ahem... COOs statement. They refuse still to change their statemetn to the effect you cannot BUY AN ADVANTAGE. He only says you cannot buy VICTORY, but does not rule out buying an ADVANTAGE. He also states, he belives not many people will leave over this. Still pompous. No change. In other words, it is game changing but not game dominating Microtransactions.
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.28 18:09:00 - [404] Edited by: Saving Face on 28/06/2011 18:08:59 Miilla, you missed the really interesting part. Quote: CCP has called for their democratically elected expect players from all over the world this week which will be discussed ways of how the introduction of products for sale in EVE will be presented. They are not there to parley, they are there to help CCP with presentation.
Zozefin	Posted - 2011.06.28 19:33:00 - [405] So ppl if u experience lag... its because CCP wasting 10m $ per year in the development of Dust and WoD. If u cant make isk in 0.0 its because CCP needs to reduce the expenses for new servers by reducing the population of 0.0. If u r one of the poor guys that his gfx can bbq hotdogs etc its because 2/3 of the devs hired by CCP ARE NOT WORKING FOR EVE THOU PAID BY EVE.
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2011.06.29 03:14:00 - [406] Jesus christ, this is a bad thread. Other than the posts consisting solely of quoting people on Failheap, I'd be hard-pressed to find more than a couple comments where my first reaction wasn't some combination of derp, psyduck, and facepalm. Yes, that's right General Discussion, you're making Failheap look good. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
Frodrich Adoudel	Posted - 2011.07.01 19:28:00 - [407] I read one of the linked accounting chats posted on page one. It has some very good points.


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October 28th is going to be an interesting date. :)

So, basically, CCP is a JUNK BOND :)

So, I guess I won't be getting that Titan then?

Yeah I hear CCP's main investors are in good standing with the Icelandic people.I think they are rated at about -10.0 :) Maybe they can buy back some standings with them for AUR

Yeah I hear CCP's main investors are in good standing with the Icelandic people.I think they are rated at about -10.0 :) Maybe they can buy back some standings with them for AUR

Yeah I hear CCP's main investors are in good standing with the Icelandic people.I think they are rated at about -10.0 :) Maybe they can buy back some standings with them for AUR

I guess this is why we cannot get GOLD AMMO :( They cannot afford GOLD.

STAY THE COURSE! hahahaha

I guess this is why we cannot get GOLD AMMO :( They cannot afford GOLD.How about BRASS? Can we have BRASS instead? It looks almost like GOLD.

I guess this is why we cannot get GOLD AMMO :( They cannot afford GOLD.How about BRASS? Can we have BRASS instead? It looks almost like GOLD.

I have to type large, it's so they can see my text on my monitor from all the way up there in Iceland.

I guess this is why we cannot get GOLD AMMO :( They cannot afford GOLD.How about BRASS? Can we have BRASS instead? It looks almost like GOLD.

$8m in 4 months. That's a lot of monocles. 114285.7142857143 to be exact. I don't think there is that many customers to buy monocles.

But nothing to worry about, CCP have a SOLID REPUTATION and their investors are well liked in Iceland.

$8m in 4 months. That's a lot of monocles. 114285.7142857143 to be exact. I don't think there is that many customers to buy monocles.

$8m in 4 months. That's a lot of monocles. 114285.7142857143 to be exact. I don't think there is that many customers to buy monocles.

Somebody should make a webpage with a counter that keeps a tally of monocles sold :) (or not)I can see the situation room in CCP HQ now, A huge screen with a Monocle Counter and a Doomsday clock beside it.

But nothing to worry about, CCP have a SOLID REPUTATION and their investors are well liked in Iceland.

CSM is already AGREEING TO NON VANITY ITEMS

CSM is already AGREEING TO NON VANITY ITEMSI'm going to click YES to all NON VANITY items. Hope you enjoy the ride.

Yeah I hear CCP's main investors are in good standing with the Icelandic people.

I think they are rated at about -10.0 :)

Maybe they can buy back some standings with them for AUR

Yeah I hear CCP's main investors are in good standing with the Icelandic people.

I think they are rated at about -10.0 :)

Maybe they can buy back some standings with them for AUR

Yeah I hear CCP's main investors are in good standing with the Icelandic people.

I think they are rated at about -10.0 :)

Maybe they can buy back some standings with them for AUR

I guess this is why we cannot get GOLD AMMO :( They cannot afford GOLD.

How about BRASS? Can we have BRASS instead? It looks almost like GOLD.

I guess this is why we cannot get GOLD AMMO :( They cannot afford GOLD.

How about BRASS? Can we have BRASS instead? It looks almost like GOLD.

I guess this is why we cannot get GOLD AMMO :( They cannot afford GOLD.

How about BRASS? Can we have BRASS instead? It looks almost like GOLD.

Somebody should make a webpage with a counter that keeps a tally of monocles sold :) (or not)

I can see the situation room in CCP HQ now, A huge screen with a Monocle Counter and a Doomsday clock beside it.

CSM is already AGREEING TO NON VANITY ITEMS

I'm going to click YES to all NON VANITY items. Hope you enjoy the ride.