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Automated arena, tournaments and the low-ship-consumption-issue

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Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army B A N E	Posted - 2011.07.05 23:49:00 - [61] Originally by: Taipion Anyone DARE to say, that Arena PvP would kill open world PvP is a WoW-Kiddy! Frankly, anyone proposing Arena pvp for EVE is a horrible WoW-Kiddy. Different game, different pvp. Deal with it.
Ghoest	Posted - 2011.07.05 23:52:00 - [62] I say this as someone who spends about 99% of my time flying the most gank proof possible ship - much of it in 0.0. And I almost never die. Theres a reason not enough ships are dying to PVP. PVP is suicide for most players - so they dont do it. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Alara IonStorm Caldari	Posted - 2011.07.05 23:53:00 - [63] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Frankly, anyone proposing Arena pvp for EVE is a horrible WoW-Kiddy. Different game, different pvp. Deal with it. Anyone who disagree's with anyone is a WoW Kiddy whatever your opinion may be. [Citation Needed] I like the idea of the mechanic cause I would have fun with it simple as that. Besides the Low Sec is now Completely Safe and everyone is holding hands in Null Sec Arguement I see no issue with this. If more people find it fun then hell throw it in if you want Devs. I would try it. -- EVE Online is commited to $$Excellence$$
Taipion Caldari Operations Control United Pod Service	Posted - 2011.07.05 23:55:00 - [64] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Originally by: Taipion Anyone DARE to say, that Arena PvP would kill open world PvP is a WoW-Kiddy! Frankly, anyone proposing Arena pvp for EVE is a horrible WoW-Kiddy. Different game, different pvp. Deal with it. Thats why we got the alliance tournament, right? Thats why everyone (well, a lot of people) loves the tournament, and would kill for playing that 10 on 10 like the big boys do? Think again!
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army B A N E	Posted - 2011.07.06 00:09:00 - [65] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 06/07/2011 00:11:08 Originally by: Taipion Thats why we got the alliance tournament, right? Thats why everyone (well, a lot of people) loves the tournament, and would kill for playing that 10 on 10 like the big boys do? Think again! Have you fought in the alliance tournament, or did you just watch it? I am asking because I fought in the last three tournaments, and while it is fun in no way does it compare to the excitement of a proper no-limits fight in the 'open world'. Rules make for mostly predictable fight dynamics and limit viable tactics too much. Honestly, what got me excited the most everytime was hoping I'd not mess up and start moving before the countdown. The actual outcome, apart from maybe two fights, was already decided by the time the fleets warped into the arena.
Mister Smithington	Posted - 2011.07.06 00:10:00 - [66] Originally by: Taipion . . . That wooshing noise you hear? That's my point going right over your head. I'll lay it out as clearly as I can. You are welcome to have your arena. But you must build it yourself. Eve is a sandbox, not a themepark. If you want something done, you have to do it. That's what makes it a sandbox and not a theme park. What is an arena? Organized PvP. CCP has provided you with the mechanics you need for PvP. It's up to you to provide the organization. I contend that those who cry for Arenas the loudest are those who are most afraid to risk what it would take to make it happen. Lazy. Pussies. Please prove me wrong. Please get your buckets and shovels and build the arena.
Alara IonStorm Caldari	Posted - 2011.07.06 00:24:00 - [67] Originally by: Mister Smithington I'll lay it out as clearly as I can. You are welcome to have your arena. But you must build it yourself. Naw I would really rather have the Devs Build it. Originally by: Mister Smithington Eve is a sandbox, not a themepark. If you want something done, you have to do it. That's what makes it a sandbox and not a theme park. Really, Devs added: Alliances Raid Content Missions Exploration Sites Wormholes Anomolies DED Complexes Concord Gateguns Faction Warfare Plexes Seems they add a lot of rides into the sandbox. Originally by: Mister Smithington What is an arena? Organized PvP. CCP has provided you with the mechanics you need for PvP. It's up to you to provide the organization. To much organization is a bad thing, that is why Game Mechanics can be added to help the process along like Faction Warfare. You didn't need it but they added it for you. Originally by: Mister Smithington I contend that those who cry for Arenas the loudest are those who are most afraid to risk what it would take to make it happen. Lazy. Pussies. Not really afraid to risk anything, I get invited to a gang or see one in the finder I come running. I often take my Cane or other small ships around as well. Originally by: Mister Smithington Please prove me wrong. Please get your buckets and shovels and build the arena. With aggro mechanics, GCC, the need to be in the same corp for a War to work then it lasts a whole week. Sure could use a game mechanic to focus the efforts of players even if it is an aggro Change only. I don't care who you think should build it, I got other stuff to do then to run around and handel this. If the Devs put it in I will not complain and will enjoy the Content. -- EVE Online is commited to $$Excellence$$
Taipion Caldari Operations Control United Pod Service	Posted - 2011.07.06 00:31:00 - [68] Originally by: Mister Smithington Originally by: Taipion . . . ... What is an arena? Organized PvP. CCP has provided you with the mechanics you need for PvP. ... Well, either you try to prove that you can post on a topic without understanding it, or you are a troll, either way, I¦d say nice try, but it wasn¦t Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 06/07/2011 00:11:08 Originally by: Taipion Thats why we got the alliance tournament, right? Thats why everyone (well, a lot of people) loves the tournament, and would kill for playing that 10 on 10 like the big boys do? Think again! Have you fought in the alliance tournament, or did you just watch it? I am asking because I fought in the last three tournaments, and while it is fun in no way does it compare to the excitement of a proper no-limits fight in the 'open world'. Rules make for mostly predictable fight dynamics and limit viable tactics too much. Honestly, what got me excited the most everytime was hoping I'd not mess up and start moving before the countdown. The actual outcome, apart from maybe two fights, was already decided by the time the fleets warped into the arena. So you like the open world fight more? Good for you, many will say the same, but why shouldnt we have a Arena or a Tournament because of that?
Mister Smithington	Posted - 2011.07.06 00:31:00 - [69] Originally by: Alara IonStorm Originally by: Mister Smithington I'll lay it out as clearly as I can. You are welcome to have your arena. But you must build it yourself. Naw I would really rather have the Devs Build it. Case in point. Lazy. Pussies.
Taipion Caldari Operations Control United Pod Service	Posted - 2011.07.06 00:36:00 - [70] Originally by: Mister Smithington Originally by: Alara IonStorm Originally by: Mister Smithington I'll lay it out as clearly as I can. You are welcome to have your arena. But you must build it yourself. Naw I would really rather have the Devs Build it. Case in point. Lazy. Pussies. First: We can¦t build it, even if we wanted to, because we don¦t have the 99$ CCP would charge us for doing their work... Second: I really appreciate your free bumps, but if you really insist on writing stuff in your bumps, think, then write, not other way round.

Portmanteau Gallente CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.07.06 00:36:00 - [71] Originally by: baltec1 Every single MMO that has added arenas has seen a fall in other pvp. Why hunt when you can get on demand fights and more importantly fair fights. fair fights sux
Olleybear Minmatar I R' Carebear	Posted - 2011.07.06 00:38:00 - [72] Originally by: Mister Smithington Pussies. Stop. Your turning me on and I'm at work for christs sake!
Mister Smithington	Posted - 2011.07.06 00:38:00 - [73] Originally by: Taipion Originally by: Mister Smithington Originally by: Alara IonStorm Originally by: Mister Smithington I'll lay it out as clearly as I can. You are welcome to have your arena. But you must build it yourself. Naw I would really rather have the Devs Build it. Case in point. Lazy. Pussies. First: We can¦t build it, even if we wanted to, because we don¦t have the 99$ CCP would charge us for doing their work... Second: I really appreciate your free bumps, but if you really insist on writing stuff in your bumps, think, then write, not other way round. I love how you get all bent out of shape when I call you out for being bad at sandbox play.
Taipion Caldari Operations Control United Pod Service	Posted - 2011.07.06 00:48:00 - [74] Originally by: Mister Smithington ... Hey Darth-Swab, I love how you try to imagine to be good at trolling, but really, as you don¦t have a point, and proved you are just facerolling to get the text into your posts... Well, I won¦t destroy your illusions as long as you bump this thread and help it grow.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army B A N E	Posted - 2011.07.06 00:51:00 - [75] Originally by: Taipion So you like the open world fight more? Good for you, many will say the same, but why shouldnt we have a Arena or a Tournament because of that? Let me ask the other way around, why waste Dev resources on essentially breaking the sandbox when you can already have your tournaments? Just organize them yourself, we have them in our alliance regularly with prizes, rules and all that stuff. The point is, it is still happening inside the sandbox. If you really dont like that, maybe give the test server a spin. Losing stuff is of no consequence there, you can have all the fair fights you ever wanted. Be aware though, they are boring.
Mister Smithington	Posted - 2011.07.06 00:55:00 - [76] Originally by: Taipion Originally by: Mister Smithington ... Hey Darth-Swab, I love how you try to imagine to be good at trolling, but really, as you don¦t have a point, and proved you are just facerolling to get the text into your posts... Well, I won¦t destroy your illusions as long as you bump this thread and help it grow. My point, sir, was that you need to stop asking the devs to circumvent the sandbox. I realize that's hard for you to process. After all, you're a lazy *****.
Alara IonStorm Caldari	Posted - 2011.07.06 00:57:00 - [77] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Let me ask the other way around, why waste Dev resources Cause I would enjoy it and feel that it is worth the time to consider it. One could ask why waste Dev Resources with anything,because people want them in game. I want this in the game, if the Devs like the idea then they can add it, if they don't they will not. -- EVE Online is commited to $$Excellence$$
Taipion Caldari Operations Control United Pod Service	Posted - 2011.07.06 00:58:00 - [78] Edited by: Taipion on 06/07/2011 01:00:59 Originally by: Mister Smithington Originally by: Taipion Originally by: Mister Smithington ... Hey Darth-Swab, I love how you try to imagine to be good at trolling, but really, as you don¦t have a point, and proved you are just facerolling to get the text into your posts... Well, I won¦t destroy your illusions as long as you bump this thread and help it grow. My point, sir, was that you need to stop asking the devs to circumvent the sandbox. I realize that's hard for you to process. After all, you're a lazy ***. No one is circumventing the sandbox, there would be just more possibilities. But, again, thx for free bumps! (are you posting here just to insult people, because you don¦t dare to do in RL?!) Originally by:** Lilith Velkor Originally by: Taipion So you like the open world fight more? Good for you, many will say the same, but why shouldnt we have a Arena or a Tournament because of that? Let me ask the other way around, why waste Dev resources on essentially breaking the sandbox when you can already have your tournaments? Just organize them yourself, we have them in our alliance regularly with prizes, rules and all that stuff. The point is, it is still happening inside the sandbox. If you really dont like that, maybe give the test server a spin. Losing stuff is of no consequence there, you can have all the fair fights you ever wanted. Be aware though, they are boring. I thought you figured it out allready, but ok, let me explain: This is EVE, if you try to have a player-made-tournament, you will have more people trying to disturb (and preferrably kill/loot the teams ships) than people participating (off those participating, there will still be a lot who won¦t play by the rules or worse...). Why? Because this is EVE! Sure you can do that on the testserver, but then, where is the thrill? Two Flagships in each fight are lame. You get the point? And still this thread was about how to burn more ships to help EVEs economy!
Olleybear Minmatar I R' Carebear	Posted - 2011.07.06 00:59:00 - [79] Originally by: Alara IonStorm Originally by: Lilith Velkor Let me ask the other way around, why waste Dev resources Cause I would enjoy it and feel that it is worth the time to consider it. One could ask why waste Dev Resources with anything,because people want them in game. I want this in the game, if the Devs like the idea then they can add it, if they don't they will not. This.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar Heretic Army B A N E	Posted - 2011.07.06 00:59:00 - [80] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 06/07/2011 01:03:37 Originally by: Alara IonStorm Originally by: Lilith Velkor Let me ask the other way around, why waste Dev resources Cause I would enjoy it and feel that it is worth the time to consider it. Please dont cut quotes trying to twist them around. Why waste Dev resources on breaking the sandbox, if you can already have tournaments within said sandbox anyway? Originally by: Taipion This is EVE, if you try to have a player-made-tournament, you will have more people trying to disturb (and preferrably kill/loot the teams ships) than people participating (off those participating, there will still be a lot who won¦t play by the rules or worse...). Thats funny, have you actually tried it? I've had tournaments without disruption in lowsec plenty of times, and some I didnt participate in personally but went down in nullsec went equally well. Originally by: Taipion Why? Because this is EVE! Exactly, and you are trying to take the EVE out of EVE.

Alara IonStorm Caldari	Posted - 2011.07.06 01:02:00 - [81] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Why waste Dev resources on breaking the sandbox, if you can already have tournaments within said sandbox anyway? Because Aggro Mechanics, GCC and Wardecs are not conducive to this style of play and don't provide enough options. The statement that this breaks the Sandbox is also a mistake. It would not break the Sandbox to provide a bookmark and gate pass to an area with Aggro turned off. -- EVE Online is commited to $$Excellence$$
Taipion Caldari Operations Control United Pod Service	Posted - 2011.07.06 01:03:00 - [82] Originally by: Lilith Velkor Exactly, and you are trying to take the EVE out of EVE. How could I? Tell me how this would affect EVE in any negative way!
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2011.07.06 01:04:00 - [83] Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o How can it be fixed ? It's a question of mentality. Talking to old friends that I flew with 5-10 years ago and neither of us remember players being 'scared' to fight when we started this game. There was a time where everyone fitted stabs, but we used them for range control (warp out- and in) mainly. We'd just take the ships we have and go out and look for fights. Even if we faced a bigger group we'd still take them on, and give a gf in local afterwards, being happy for getting to shoot stuff.. as well as that kick of putting stuff at risk. I remember purely flying Executioners for well over a year (I had BS 5 several months but still flew frigs) since I couldn't afford otherwise. But I did fight. Industrialists fought. Highsec dwellers fought. In fact, the only entity I remember facing that didn't fight, they used log-on traps to fight on their own terms.. still better than today. TL;DR Something changed, 2007 we still had decent roams. I'd say 2008'ish, around that time, suddenly people got scared about losing stuff. Suddenly kill/death efficiency was something they talked about as well. I.e. I doubt we can "fix" this now. The mentality is deeply rooted. Killboards is an integrated part of EVE. We have industrialists who don't want to PvP. We have people who want to live in null but rather pay than fight for space. That right there, is the reason we don't lose ships at the amounts we used, could, should. -
MeBiatch	Posted - 2011.07.06 01:07:00 - [84] if you want more ships to die its simple NERF! Logistics!!!!
0oO0oOoOo0o	Posted - 2011.07.06 01:12:00 - [85] Originally by: Mister Smithington I'll lay it out as clearly as I can. You are welcome to have your arena. But you must build it yourself. Eve is a sandbox, not a themepark. If you want something done, you have to do it. That's what makes it a sandbox and not a theme park. What is an arena? Organized PvP. CCP has provided you with the mechanics you need for PvP. It's up to you to provide the organization. ... An arena doesn't make it a themepark or less sandbox, maybe you should learn the difference between the two and why MMOs are classed as one of the two. It requires additional coding, and therefore it can only be done by CCP. For example the ranking is an important aspect of that and it must be done by the system, can't be done by a player. Think about the arena as e-sports, tournaments/fighting as sports is even part of the Caldari background, so it perfectly fits into this game. And ranking develops it's own dynamics, you can find it in many games, I mentioned the FIDE world ranking for chess above, there are some for other sports as well, for example tennis. If you participate in sports with rating, you know what I mean, the competitive part of it can be extremely addictive and fun.
Taipion Caldari Operations Control United Pod Service	Posted - 2011.07.06 01:13:00 - [86] Originally by: MeBiatch if you want more ships to die its simple NERF! Logistics!!!! That would just result in even bigger blobs.
Mister Smithington	Posted - 2011.07.06 01:14:00 - [87] Originally by: Taipion No one is circumventing the sandbox, there would be just more possibilities. Removing the ability for others to interfere breaks the sandbox. Forcing systems where there is room for player creation breaks the sandbox. Quote: (are you posting here just to insult people, because you don¦t dare to do in RL?!) Surprisingly enough my language is comparatively tame on the forums. Quote: This is EVE, if you try to have a player-made-tournament, you will have more people trying to disturb (and preferrably kill/loot the teams ships) than people participating (off those participating, there will still be a lot who won¦t play by the rules or worse...). Why? Because this is EVE! We've already seen the pro-arena lazyness, and here, ladies and gentlemen, is the fear. Fear of risk. Fear of the unknown. Fear of the sandbox. We get it, you're afraid to give it a shot. Others aren't. We have testimony that BANE hold their own tourneys. RvB may not be exactly what you're shooting for, but they're another fine example of a group of players who Hardened The **** Up and used the sandbox the way it was intended.
MeBiatch	Posted - 2011.07.06 01:17:00 - [88] Originally by: Taipion Originally by: MeBiatch if you want more ships to die its simple NERF! Logistics!!!! That would just result in even bigger blobs. no that would result in more ship deaths and ipso facto more industry...
0oO0oOoOo0o	Posted - 2011.07.06 01:27:00 - [89] Originally by: Misanth I.e. I doubt we can "fix" this now. The mentality is deeply rooted. Killboards is an integrated part of EVE. We have industrialists who don't want to PvP. We have people who want to live in null but rather pay than fight for space. That right there, is the reason we don't lose ships at the amounts we used, could, should. Yes I know what you mean, that was one of the reasons for me to quit my last alliance. We regularly had nice BS/BC-sized fleets, usually 30-40. But we hardly had any fights, we either met smaller fleets who ran from us or we ran because the others had bigger numbers. The FCs preferred to play it safe, not to get a bad reputation by dumping fleets to bigger blobs. Sometimes we had 5-6 hour trips without a single fight - some people like that, but it won't disappear with things like the arena, since space still has to be defended / conquered by fleets. It's just additional PVP for people who want to log in for a limited time, not the whole evening, and still have some halfway fair PVP experience.
Olleybear Minmatar I R' Carebear	Posted - 2011.07.06 01:29:00 - [90] Edited by: Olleybear on 06/07/2011 01:36:59 Hmmm, breaking the sandbox = others cant interfere? Sounds like the Alliance Tourney to me. Devs move the praticipants to a Jove system noone else has access to. The tourney is popular enough they stream it over the net and call it Eve TV. From what I understand, people like it more than a little. I havnt heard any people complaining about the Alliance Tourney and how it sucks because the crowd cant jump into the middle of the fight. Shrug Originally by: 0oO0oOoOo0o It's just additional PVP for people who want to log in for a limited time, not the whole evening, and still have some halfway fair PVP experience. Yup. Agreed. There are tons of people who complain all the time about how long it takes to find a fight, myself included. Not everyone has 5 hours to play a night in hopes that a fight may come.



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