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Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
175
   |
Posted - 2011.09.29 02:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
We all are aware that rmt and bots are in Eve to stay. CCP is unable to get 'em all away from the game even their security team has been gaining some ground. For this reason I throw the forbidden toy to the sandbox and let you guys start chewing...
If player is willing to trust CCP with his creditcard details and let EvE client run on his computer, he should be able to trust CCP enough to let 'em run limited spyware in his computer also. This is my personal opinion and it doesn't weight much, but there goes it anyways...
Would you be ready to run anti-botware to get botless eve? Would it work? Would it fail? Would it be the end of RMT or kill the economy? How do you think the game would change? Is there any alternative solution? What could go wrong? What would be awesome?
Your turn - flood away :)
Forum fix for firefox and chrome
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Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
Coalition of the Unfortunate
25
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 02:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
Over my dead body and / or unsubscribed accounts.
I want bots gone as much as the next guy - but like most people I have a large amount of personal content on my computer, plus a lot of work stuff too.
I would never knowingly allow a third party to monitor the goings-on of my personal hardware in any way, shape or form. |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
59
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 03:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
I think we should implement a final solution for bad posters with bad ideas.
Notify: You are eaten by the Whumpus
http://goo.gl/uX5vk |
Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
3
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 03:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Only if CCP promises not to steal the logins to all my p0rn sites and mess up my "fav" playlist. |
The Apostle
The Black Priests
117
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 03:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Stormshadow. Admirable suggestion but no. Yes I can trust the company but as we all know, companies are a collection of inidividuals and any individual can go rogue. Our credit card details are protected by international law, our personal information is not covered by all countries equally.
What might be legal (**** sites as the example - lol) in my country would not be legal in say, yours. Where does the law lay? In the land of fhe server or the client?
I have always liked the suggestion of Captcha or similar client checking. A flash in your Neocom says you've got 10 minutes to respond - but only if you're ratting or mining. Punch in the code and you're good to go.
How many people would accept this to help eliminate bots?
Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest.
WTB: An Austrian kangaroo! |
luZk
Jaegerkorpset
2
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 03:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
If CCP wanted to get rid of the botters i would be easy. But they wont.
I suggest.
Make a "I am human" test appear at every bounty payout with a simple math problem. Something like 3+5+2+7 = (?) and a 10 min. timer to give an answer.
If you fail the test your client logs off auto. If you keep logging in and failing the test a GM gets a message about it. |
Mara Tessidar
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
60
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 03:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
Captchas. Captchas.
Not sure if trolling, or just really stupid.
Notify: You are eaten by the Whumpus
http://goo.gl/uX5vk |
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 03:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
actually a captcha cleverly implemented at ANY docking phase of the game would be a great way to kill botting
click on doc stupid lil block comes up confirming docking coordinates human has to type in the correct answer to the captcha puzzle.
|
Alpheias
Euphoria Released
HYDRA RELOADED
71
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 03:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sri Nova wrote:actually a captcha cleverly implemented at ANY docking phase of the game would be a great way to kill botting
click on doc stupid lil block comes up confirming docking coordinates human has to type in the correct answer to the captcha puzzle.
Speaking of stupid, that is some extraordinary stupid suggestion.
GÖ½ When your ship gets blown to bits
GÖ½ And you lose your Faction fits
\Gÿ+/ Don't worry GÖ¬ GÖ½ GÖ¬ GÖ½
GÖ½ GÖ¬ GÖ½ GÖ¬ Be Happy \Gÿ+/ |
luZk
Jaegerkorpset
2
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 04:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:Captchas. Captchas.
Not sure if trolling, or just really stupid.
I guess im really stupid then. 
Well the problem with todays test its based on 1 picture, if its Captchas or reCaptchas or "re-re-re-re-re-reCaptchas", i dont really care.
Say it was a 10-20 sec. randomized .gif with numbers appearing and disappearing or numbers moving from visible to invisible on ponies riding across your screen. Perhaps a colour code could define the order, if blue then, if red then, if yellow ect.
Can we at least agree it would be harder to bot than it is today right?
Its a ungoing fight no matter what, what works tomorrow will not work in 3-6 months. But its still better than giving up on fixing the problem. |
suki cox
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 04:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mara Tessidar wrote:Captchas. Captchas.
Not sure if trolling, or just really stupid.
Not sure if bot farmer, who hasnt cracked captchas |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone
Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 04:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
luZk wrote:If CCP wanted to get rid of the botters i would be easy. But they wont.
This x100000
CCP permits botting for a reason.
Any claims and so-called efforts to the contrary are to keep the greater player-base collective panties unbunched.
RMT controls most of 0.0. CCP not only knows this, they factor it into their business model. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex
Cosmic Consortium
97
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 04:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
Grey Stormshadow wrote:Would you be ready to run anti-botware to get botless eve? Would it work? Would it fail? Would it be the end of RMT or kill the economy? How do you think the game would change? Is there any alternative solution? What could go wrong? What would be awesome?
Software security 101:
Do not trust the client. This means that regardless of how careful you are with writing your software, do not expect it to work as you designed it when it runs on hardware that you do not have in your physical possession.
Software like Punkbuster only works as long as the potential offenders aren't smart enough to use a fake Punkbuster to send fake "client is clean" messages back to the server. Any encryption performed by software on the client means that by definition the encryption keys must be on the client, which means they can be copied and used to encrypt fake "client is clean" messages.
You cannot trust the client.
So certainly, all the innocent players will happily run your Punkbuster and put up with the errors that it introduces. In the meantime the bot users will install the fake Punkbuster which reports the "good" values, even though there are a dozen bots running on that computer.
If the problem of reliably detecting bots was really as easy as you believe it is, there would be no bots.
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex
Cosmic Consortium
97
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 04:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
luZk wrote:Can we at least agree it would be harder to bot than it is today right?
Sure. It would also be harder to play legitimately.
Any mechanism to "fight bots" that causes difficulty for legitimate players is not acceptable. If I'm trying to jump through a gate to escape pursuers, why should I be forced to respond to a CAPTCHA?
Then there's the issue of outsourcing CAPTCHA solving to Mechanical Turk or hordes of $1/week Chinese prisoners.
To which point, is there a game-ethics difference between running a bot versus having a dozen Chinese prisoners playing your character for you 23x7?
|
luZk
Jaegerkorpset
2
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 05:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
Good point Mara Rinn. |
The Apostle
The Black Priests
119
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 05:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
Quote:This x100000
CCP permits botting for a reason.
Any claims and so-called efforts to the contrary are to keep the greater player-base collective panties unbunched.
RMT controls most of 0.0. CCP not only knows this, they factor it into their business model.
Forgive my ignorance, can you please explain to me how you would stop such actions if you were CCP?
Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest.
WTB: An Austrian kangaroo! |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
345
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 05:09:00 -
[17] - Quote
Embarrased laughter : Final solution ? Snerk...
Authoritative statement : Every anti-bot measure that requires user interaction will end up causing more trouble than it's worth for legitimate users compared to the effectiveness against actual bots.
Mild sarcasm : As for anti-bot software addons... yes, great idea, have people responsible for boot.ini and several other lesser incidents gain access to code closer to the core of your OS, that will end well.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributor_name:Akita_T#Contributions_link_collection |
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
66
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 05:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
Players run bots and buy ISK illegally.
The final fix is to remove the players, but the result is well no game.
But you know, CCP finds Bots as they can and that time and work cost money that could go into game development.
Everyone says it is CCP job to police their game.
Well they do, but if the player base wasn't filled with so many ......... then CCP would have more money and time to spend on other projects.
So kick your botting friend in the head, and tell him/her to knock it off.
Capitals (Balancing and Roles) |
luZk
Jaegerkorpset
2
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 05:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Akita T wrote:Embarrased laughter : Final solution ? Snerk...
Authoritative statement : Every anti-bot measure that requires user interaction will end up causing more trouble than it's worth for legitimate users compared to the effectiveness against actual bots.
Mild sarcasm : As for anti-bot software addons... yes, great idea, have people responsible for boot.ini and several other lesser incidents gain access to code closer to the core of your OS, that will end well.
Stop talking like HK-47.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg1gTas7OAA
|
Kimli
The Directive
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 05:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:Players run bots and buy ISK illegally.
The final fix is to remove the players, but the result is well no game.
But you know, CCP finds Bots as they can and that time and work cost money that could go into game development.
Everyone says it is CCP job to police their game.
Well they do, but if the player base wasn't filled with so many ......... then CCP would have more money and time to spend on other projects.
So kick your botting friend in the head, and tell him/her to knock it off.
this ^^ |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
346
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 05:23:00 -
[21] - Quote
luZk wrote:Stop talking like HK-47.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=15557&find=unread
Excited commentary : An ELCOR HK-47 !
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributor_name:Akita_T#Contributions_link_collection |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone
Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 05:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
The Apostle wrote:Quote:This x100000
CCP permits botting for a reason.
Any claims and so-called efforts to the contrary are to keep the greater player-base collective panties unbunched.
RMT controls most of 0.0. CCP not only knows this, they factor it into their business model. Forgive my ignorance, can you please explain to me how you would stop such actions if you were CCP?
Your ignorance is not my problem.
This is internets forumz and no one is paying me to educate you.
Imagination is the only limitation to the amount of information and statistics available to them. If you can't figure out how the one group who owns and controls the server-side coding/operation of the game might be able to identify systematic botting, there is no hope for you.... and there will most certainly be no forgiveness for your idiocy.
This doesn't even mention the gains to be made with a small amount of resources dedicated to sting operations they could set up to nail popular sellers. The very idea you could hide/launder money through however many characters/actions from the one group of persons which no action is ultimately hidden from is an exercise in stupidity.
Forgive my brutal logic. Can you please explain to me how you are so dumb? |
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
86
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 05:42:00 -
[23] - Quote
WOW has a piece of software that runs in the background, starts and stops randomly while ur running the wow client, if it detects bot software GM's are notified.
guess what, i played wow for 6 months with 3 friends. together we saw 3 bots in total.
i approve of anti bot software. as long as it only runs while client is active and doesnt take the resources of incarna because i would hate for my PC to catch fire while on login screen
|
The Apostle
The Black Priests
119
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 05:57:00 -
[24] - Quote
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:The Apostle wrote:Quote:This x100000
CCP permits botting for a reason.
Any claims and so-called efforts to the contrary are to keep the greater player-base collective panties unbunched.
RMT controls most of 0.0. CCP not only knows this, they factor it into their business model. Forgive my ignorance, can you please explain to me how you would stop such actions if you were CCP? Your ignorance is not my problem. This is internets forumz and no one is paying me to educate you. Imagination is the only limitation to the amount of information and statistics available to them. If you can't figure out how the one group who owns and controls the server-side coding/operation of the game might be able to identify systematic botting, there is no hope for you.... and there will most certainly be no forgiveness for your idiocy. Forgive my brutal logic. Can you please explain to me how you are so dumb?
Lolz. man, you're a card.
So I can run 3 Tengu accounts. I run each for 4 or 5 hours at a time. If a neut comes into system I safe up. I do this 7 days a week.
Am I a bot or a human?
I run 3 Hulks on 3 screens. I mine 5 hours a day and I do it 7 days straight. After 5 hours, I log my other 3 Hulks and mine the same. While all my Hulks are mining away I'm doing my work at my desk.
Am I a bot or human?
I run a Domi and I do L4's all day every day. After 5 hours, I log my other Domi char and do the same.
Am I a bot or human?
Don't bother answering. You can't tell can you? If you think patterns are a way to detect botting. Well. Cough......
Only way I have EVER seen bots identified beyond doubt is by interacting with them. Their response is the giveaway, not the botting patterns themselves.
Oh and RMT. As fast as a sting nailed an RMT'er, he's moved, shut down his accounts and started somewhere else. And apart from a breach of EULA, what law has he broken? You cannot enlist the help of the RMT ISP's/law enforcment or any such agency. So how do you stop them?
To declare that CCP could "easily" stop RMT/Botting is about.... well..... as dumb as it can get. Sorry man.
Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest.
WTB: An Austrian kangaroo! |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone
Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 06:11:00 -
[25] - Quote
The Apostle wrote:Pr1ncess Alia wrote:The Apostle wrote:Quote:This x100000
CCP permits botting for a reason.
Any claims and so-called efforts to the contrary are to keep the greater player-base collective panties unbunched.
RMT controls most of 0.0. CCP not only knows this, they factor it into their business model. Forgive my ignorance, can you please explain to me how you would stop such actions if you were CCP? Your ignorance is not my problem. This is internets forumz and no one is paying me to educate you. Imagination is the only limitation to the amount of information and statistics available to them. If you can't figure out how the one group who owns and controls the server-side coding/operation of the game might be able to identify systematic botting, there is no hope for you.... and there will most certainly be no forgiveness for your idiocy. Forgive my brutal logic. Can you please explain to me how you are so dumb? Lolz. man, you're a card. So I can run 3 Tengu accounts. I run each for 4 or 5 hours at a time. If a neut comes into system I safe up. I do this 7 days a week. Am I a bot or a human? I run 3 Hulks on 3 screens. I mine 5 hours a day and I do it 7 days straight. After 5 hours, I log my other 3 Hulks and mine the same. While all my Hulks are mining away I'm doing my work at my desk. Am I a bot or human? I run a Domi and I do L4's all day every day. After 5 hours, I log my other Domi char and do the same. Am I a bot or human? Don't bother answering. You can't tell can you? If you think patterns are a way to detect botting. Well. Cough...... Only way I have EVER seen bots identified beyond doubt is by interacting with them. Their response is the giveaway, not the botting patterns themselves. Oh and RMT. As fast as a sting nailed an RMT'er, he's moved, shut down his accounts and started somewhere else. And apart from a breach of EULA, what law has he broken? You cannot enlist the help of the RMT ISP's/law enforcment or any such agency. So how do you stop them? To declare that CCP could "easily" stop RMT/Botting is about.... well..... as dumb as it can get. Sorry man.
It's not what you are flying and your behaviors as viewed by a human observer, it's the statistics of those behaviors as viewed by a machine that will give away a human vs a machine. Human interaction ala conversation or otherwise is not only unneeded, it's not nearly as efficient or accurate. Reaction times, statistics of those across multiple encounters, things like that. Cold hard numbers separate machines from humans, nothing else is needed or even wanted.(I want them to KNOW I'm a bot when they ban me, not *think* I'm a bot)
Not to mention the false/bogus information that could be fed to a client to illicit reactions of a bot where a human might only perceive a glitch.
The fact that you cannot think of ways CCP could easily attack RMT only proves the limitation of your imagination, nothing more. Another display of the ignorance you asked forgiveness for earlier.
and wtf law enforcement? What are you on about?
edit: but again this is all an exercise in futility. as I've already explained CCP doesn't want to eliminate RMT in Eve. It would be suicide, especially at a time when they need every subscription they can get. |
The Apostle
The Black Priests
119
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 06:31:00 -
[26] - Quote
Quote:The fact that you cannot think of ways CCP could easily attack RMT only proves the limitation of your imagination, nothing more. Another display of the ignorance you asked forgiveness for earlier.
and wtf law enforcement? What are you on about?
You are the one telling me how easy it is. So say so instead of beating the bushes with such belligerent nonsense!
As for law enforcement, CCP cannot use law enforcement/such agencies to shut down RMT. (right, got that bit?)
So CCP has to do the job - alone. (got that bit?)
This is just one scenario.
Set up sting. Catch character X. He gets banned. But not before he accidently got "blowed up" by character Y with 200 plex in his hold. Character Y is also character X etc... Rince and repeat.
Second Scenario
The RMT transaction is setup outside of any Eve jurisiction. Easily done, can't be traced to any account (ebay, direct debit, paypal etc.) You can then rinse ISK through Eve with BPO/C scams, "buy 1 trit" scams etc. etc.... You simply cannot monitor the millions of transactions that occur everyday and deduce that transaction 432,564 is an RMT transfer.
Third Scenario
Go to System Y, Moon 9 - warp to 70. I forgot to put my shuttle away with that 1.6b ISK BPO inside it. Gosh darn.....
There ya go. Imaginitive ways to avoid RMT. Is that what you asked for?
Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest.
WTB: An Austrian kangaroo! |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
1
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 06:37:00 -
[27] - Quote
luZk wrote:If CCP wanted to get rid of the botters i would be easy. But they wont.
I suggest.
Make a "I am human" test appear at every bounty payout with a simple math problem. Something like 3+5+2+7 = (?) and a 10 min. timer to give an answer.
If you fail the test your client logs off auto. If you keep logging in and failing the test a GM gets a message about it.
BECAUSE IT'S AN IMPOSSIBLE FOR A COMPUTER TO DO MATH |
Prince Kobol
47
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 06:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
The problem in detecting bots is that every players is different.
We each have our own way of playing.
You can not tell 100% whether somebody is a bot or not just by watching them play.
The only 100% method I know of detecting a bot is if you destroy the ship but the pod carries on regardless.
Getting rid of bots is not easy because if it was there would be no bots.. duh.
What makes life difficult for CCP is PLEX and the ability to purchase characters.
It allows a person to create account after account without having to submit any personal information and then to purchase a character capable of ratting / botting immediately.
I am unaware of any other MMO where this is true.
A quick example.
RMT sites purchases Eve time codes using stolen credit details.
RMT agents creates a new account and uses those eve time codes to active account and redeem PLEX.
Multiple Players purchase PLEX from RMT site.
RMT agent gives those PLEX (at below the market rate) instead of isk to those players in game
Players think they are getting a good deal as they actually get more isk when selling those PLEX's then they would of taking the isk.
Once Agent has sold all the PLEX he can then ditch the account and start again.
|
mechtech
SRS Industries
SRS.
26
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 07:53:00 -
[29] - Quote
I'd love a 3rd party "warden" type program.
I already being data mined by Gmail, Google, and Skype, and the NSA already has backdoors into my isp. Would I also allow some video game vikings to look for eve botting tools loaded into my memory? Sure :P
You can't ever kill botting, but you can make it harder, and increase the barrier of entry. I'd absolutely love to see an anti-bot module as a core component of the CARBON toolbox. |
Qupid Stunt
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2011.09.29 07:55:00 -
[30] - Quote
The last time someone came up with
The Final Solution...
It also turned out to be a bad idea |
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