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Instajump Bookmarks: Time for a difficult choice?

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Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2005.02.26 11:08:00 - [61] Instas are nice, travelling takes to long without em --------------------------- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Skillshot	Posted - 2005.02.26 11:28:00 - [62] its a simple soultion actully, allow insta;s in empire and not in 0.0.. probelm solved for both sides
Darken Two	Posted - 2005.02.26 11:37:00 - [63] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 26/02/2005 09:57:38 Originally by: Harry Voyager Building a single battleship takes on averate 8 million units of tritanium. That's 80,000 m^3 of tritanium, or roughly eight industrial full of trit. Note, that's just the Tritanium, most BS take another 30,000 m^3 of minerals to build. Shipping that volume of minerals a mere 10 jumps with instajumps can take a full working day of play time. Shipping that volume of minerals 10 jumps without instajumps can easily take a full week of gametime. In 0.0 space, it is routine for factory stations to be 10+ jumps from the nearest refinery. You want to define game-breaking not fun? Try hauling rock through unsafe space in a tin can for 40 *ffing hours. Harry Voyager Well thats a problem not with travel time but rather with CCP's lack of realism. Any intelligent station owners would build a factory along with a refinery - think how much easier it would be to transport a built ship, rather then the minerals to build the ship. And again the realism relating to alliance / empire interaction is foolish as well. A production alliance would be happy to have nuetrals come to their space and purchase ships, minerals and import empire based products etc but currently thats not a reality and alliance people are forced (by an unrealistic militant leadership) to transport their products out of alliance space causing more unneccesary travel. Infinity Ziona What the hell is a "production alliance". There are no alliances that are purely based on production. Every alliance that hopes to survive is heavily based on PvP thgo they may berate each other for their fighting skills, anyone form empire would be no match for them. Also most of them dont need to import anything that they cant bring in themselves. So stop derailing the thread and let everyone discuss their instajump problem. Why dont you just DIE DIE DIE !!!!
Lygos	Posted - 2005.02.26 11:38:00 - [64] The idea that pvp can and ought to only occur around gates is inane and uncreative. The End.
Harry Wenger	Posted - 2005.02.26 11:49:00 - [65] Just read through this tread again. Some good points, some not so good . In the end bookmarks represent a band-aid solution to a travel system which was broken from the start. I don't think gates were planned on being "killing fields", but instead were meant to be "battle fields". But we all know how that turned out... As for myself, who by all right qualifies as a (living in empire, modest wallet, and only having roughed up my opponents in combat), I will continue working on my PvP combat skills, fit my fleet for PvP and hope that by the time I reach a competative level things will have changed for the better. That said, EVE is a great game, flaws and all. I'll continue to play by the rules as they are, but that wont stop me from wanting something better than what we have now Cheers
Sheial Tarlien	Posted - 2005.02.26 11:53:00 - [66] Originally by: Infinity Ziona Well thats a problem not with travel time but rather with CCP's lack of realism. You seem to like smacking everyone elses intelligence, but this comment of yours takes the cake. The flight engine alone should be enough to show you the game isnt based around being realistic, but around its gameplay.
Hukka	Posted - 2005.02.26 11:57:00 - [67] Originally by: Avon Insta's are not the problem. Insta's being tradeable is the problem. If the balance is that using them is fine because of the effort creating them, only let the people who create them use them. Seems obvious TBH. People trading in eve?! Gasp Hope dev get this fixed soon. Just like there is problem people producing ships and then trading these with others. Instead it should be so that only who made the ship/module should be able to use it as he spend time to build it.
Skillshot	Posted - 2005.02.26 11:57:00 - [68] lol ****** based his economy on war and look what happend to him, alliances where formed and we took him out.. eve is not all that diferant in concept but making it so easy for every person that got bullied as a kid to get to be the bullie in eve is not what i pay for.. if i had a choice i would not fight at all I am a True Carebear and i dont like confrintation of anykind save a good conversation in or out of the game. I run into the bullie corps like solstace who come into a .5 system order people around and if ( like me ) dont take well to being bullied and god forbid say i dont like it thier 46 member corp declares war on my 4 person ( family ) corp, insults my mom and sister and dad as well not to mention me.. and they blew up my ship in .5.... and instas are going to have an affect on this why.. couse with out them i would have no chance nore would my corp to escape players and coproratins like ( ticker name is soinc ) that.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.02.26 12:12:00 - [69] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 26/02/2005 12:14:19 Some of my PvP-liking brethren aren't gonna look favourably on me for saying this, but I considee insta's perfectly fine. They are far from a immunity ticket and are actually the one single thing that make travelling in 0.0 doable to single players and those not as experienced as most of us that have been living out there for a year already. Insta's are fine. I say we keep them. If you call yourself a fighter and cannot stop someone that uses instajumps, that is YOUR lack of ability, not some supposed untouchability of anyone using instajumps. Of course, instajumps do promote ganking. But tbh, remove the map and things might sort themsleves abit in that area as well. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Darken Two	Posted - 2005.02.26 12:20:00 - [70] Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 26/02/2005 12:14:19 Some of my PvP-liking brethren aren't gonna look favourably on me for saying this, but I considee insta's perfectly fine. They are far from a immunity ticket and are actually the one single thing that make travelling in 0.0 doable to single players and those not as experienced as most of us that have been living out there for a year already. Insta's are fine. I say we keep them. If you call yourself a fighter and cannot stop someone that uses instajumps, that is YOUR lack of ability, not some supposed untouchability of anyone using instajumps. Of course, instajumps do promote ganking. But tbh, remove the map and things might sort themsleves abit in that area as well. For the first time in a long time, I agree with Rod. Why dont you just DIE DIE DIE !!!!
Grim Vandal	Posted - 2005.02.26 12:52:00 - [71] Originally by: Rod Blaine Edited by: Rod Blaine on 26/02/2005 12:14:19 Some of my PvP-liking brethren aren't gonna look favourably on me for saying this, but I considee insta's perfectly fine. They are far from a immunity ticket and are actually the one single thing that make travelling in 0.0 doable to single players and those not as experienced as most of us that have been living out there for a year already. Insta's are fine. I say we keep them. If you call yourself a fighter and cannot stop someone that uses instajumps, that is YOUR lack of ability, not some supposed untouchability of anyone using instajumps. Of course, instajumps do promote ganking. But tbh, remove the map and things might sort themsleves abit in that area as well. I dont care if you are immune due to insta's or not but the fact below is just too huge to be ignored... the point is you dont need a fast ship to travel fast and this is the big flaw... and the point of using mobile warp disruptors as a counter is just lame... eg. how the hell can I chase or follow someone in my cruiser if the target BS uses instant jumps... ya fine I can make/copy my own instant jumps but this just negates the "bonus" of having them... AND in the end EVERYONE will have them but the fact below wont vanish... a fleet of BS can move just as fast as a fleet of cruisers or frigs... it just favors the larger ships... Parallax Error already put some nice sentences together: quote from Parallax Error: The other thing this also touches upon is the mobility of the large ships. Insta's are making a huge difference in PvP because they vastly increase the mobility of battleships in particular. If you want a fast, mobile strike group a battleship will no longer slow you down much because it moves almost as quickly as a Cruiser can whilst travelling distances. Infact..... having thought about this whilst typing it, this is reason enough on its own to get rid of instas. for gods sake this is a PVP game, isnt it Greetings Grim
Levin Cavil	Posted - 2005.02.26 14:01:00 - [72] Edited by: Levin Cavil on 26/02/2005 14:09:05 Edited by: Levin Cavil on 26/02/2005 14:02:13 Why not remove all BMs in the game that are in the same grid as a stargate (or make them otherwise useless) and then remove the ability to trade bookmarks. This way each person has to make their own set. I tend to agree with Rod however, seems to me that instas are fine. Nerfing the map and removing chokepoints might be a better solution ------------------------------ <Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
Chade Malloy	Posted - 2005.02.26 14:16:00 - [73] I¦ve been in eve for a long time now. I¦ve been here since even gate to gate jumps where a mere dream, after jump you appeared just SOMEWHERE in a solar system, and no sentries at gates. (you could consider every sytem below 0.5 pirates dreamland) I have seen multiple approaches with different warpin ranges to gates, different jump ranges and so on, but i think the current system that has some random chance to miss your once carefully made insta-BM is he best of all. Face the truth, far too many ppl depend on instas for their daily work in eve, mostly haulers and such. And don¦t gimme this "use an escort when hauling valuable goods" ***, since ANY half-baked raven wannabe pirate commander is able to launch a volley of torps/cruises on a helpless indie, and NO escort ships could do anything to stop them. Maybe the new t2 heavy transports could have a chance of surviving chain spammed torps, but short of that escorts for indies are USELESS! I would never EVER fly valuable goods around in them when i would have no instas that raise my chances to reach my destination considerably, even it they are no longer failsafe. And if it comes to transport ore in 0.0 well, then let me say without instas i wouldnt be profitable anymore (unless you have a POS, but without instas it would be a HELL of a timesink to even supply one with isotopes/empire goods) cause in the time you need to go travelling 10+ jumps from mining place to refining station if you have even access to one) without bms, you would make more money in the same time constantly mining scord in a beld and simply refining+selling at a station in system. Not to mention that noone of us wants to spent even MORE hours in front of the screen, staring numb on the screen and watching your ship reaching its destination. If there could be a change, then the "randomisation" factor could be increased to about +/- 3 km. Patience wins.*
Panzer	Posted - 2005.02.26 14:49:00 - [74] Edited by: Panzer on 26/02/2005 14:50:45 I agree with removing instant jumps as long as something is done to make traveling less harsh like a 7.5 km warp in point at gates. For harry, have you heard of the freighters, Indies with huge cargo holds that can only transport inbetween stations. With these instead of making 10-20 jumps per trip just to move a lot of minerals around, you only have to make one trip of those 10-20 jumps. Removing instants jumps will also help create regional markets along with removing highways. People aren't going to want to make 6 jumps to yulai in indies without instant jumps from nonni just to buy some stuff 5% cheaper.(that is with highways still intact)
Grim Vandal	Posted - 2005.02.26 14:50:00 - [75] Originally by: Chade Malloy I¦ve been in eve for a long time now. I¦ve been here since even gate to gate jumps where a mere dream, after jump you appeared just SOMEWHERE in a solar system, and no sentries at gates. (you could consider every sytem below 0.5 pirates dreamland) I have seen multiple approaches with different warpin ranges to gates, different jump ranges and so on, but i think the current system that has some random chance to miss your once carefully made insta-BM is he best of all. Face the truth, far too many ppl depend on instas for their daily work in eve, mostly haulers and such. And don¦t gimme this "use an escort when hauling valuable goods" **, since ANY half-baked raven wannabe pirate commander is able to launch a volley of torps/cruises on a helpless indie, and NO escort ships could do anything to stop them. Maybe the new t2 heavy transports could have a chance of surviving chain spammed torps, but short of that escorts for indies are USELESS! I would never EVER fly valuable goods around in them when i would have no instas that raise my chances to reach my destination considerably, even it they are no longer failsafe. And if it comes to transport ore in 0.0 well, then let me say without instas i wouldnt be profitable anymore (unless you have a POS, but without instas it would be a HELL of a timesink to even supply one with isotopes/empire goods) cause in the time you need to go travelling 10+ jumps from mining place to refining station if you have even access to one) without bms, you would make more money in the same time constantly mining scord in a beld and simply refining+selling at a station in system. If there could be a change, then the "randomisation" factor could be increased to about +/- 3 km. well true... its an ISK sink... AND exactly what eve needs... and even more we have pos for a reason... i know its not working as efficient and it still has bugs... but god damn look at all the changes which are to come... look at the bigger picture... you always have to watch the "whole" if you post about balance... more 0.0 chokepoints consider 0.0 map as vanished or vastly delayed no more 0.0 local chat pvp suitable safespot scanning consider the ability to shoot down missiles which arent locked on yourself... point defence cruiser anyone??? consider player build stations consider cloaking and now consider insta's to be removed Originally by:** Chade Malloy Not to mention that noone of us wants to spent even MORE hours in front of the screen, staring numb on the screen and watching your ship reaching its destination. thats your only valid reason but again a BS should be slow as well as this one Freighter which you should consider as well These are the new ultra-haul class of ships in EVE, with 100K M3+ specialized cargo holds. They are howerver only station to station and of course veeery slow. Make that veeeeeeeery slow. look at the bigger picture... this is going to be a god damn 1337 game... Greetings Grim
Grim Vandal	Posted - 2005.02.26 14:54:00 - [76] Edited by: Grim Vandal on 26/02/2005 14:54:05 Originally by: Parallax Error The other thing this also touches upon is the mobility of the large ships. Insta's are making a huge difference in PvP because they vastly increase the mobility of battleships in particular. If you want a fast, mobile strike group a battleship will no longer slow you down much because it moves almost as quickly as a Cruiser can whilst travelling distances. Infact..... having thought about this whilst typing it, this is reason enough on its own to get rid of instas. cant quote that often enough Greetings Grim
Chade Malloy	Posted - 2005.02.26 17:03:00 - [77] Originally by: Grim Vandal Edited by: Grim Vandal on 26/02/2005 14:54:05 Originally by: Parallax Error The other thing this also touches upon is the mobility of the large ships. Insta's are making a huge difference in PvP because they vastly increase the mobility of battleships in particular. If you want a fast, mobile strike group a battleship will no longer slow you down much because it moves almost as quickly as a Cruiser can whilst travelling distances. Infact..... having thought about this whilst typing it, this is reason enough on its own to get rid of instas. cant quote that often enough Uhm, sorry, but thats just wrong. You don¦t need instas to move a fleet of 20+ BS around, one single inty (two are better) does the trick, if you don¦t mess the timing you can "slingshot" whole fleets around in "uncharted" territory. However it maybe true for the lone single BS, but when you take the alignment/acceleration time for slow BS into account, then you are nearly as fast as an instajump apoc when you fly in AB/mwd typhoon for example. Patience wins.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.02.26 17:16:00 - [78] Everyone who wants instas removed are just people who are too lazy to fit more sensor boosters. Instas simply speed up travel time--they don't make it particularly hard to kill people. -- The best description of alliances, ever:
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2005.02.26 17:40:00 - [79] Having flown in both Ghost Fleets and Battle Fleets, Ghost Fleets, even without instajumps are still considerably faster than Battle Fleets with insta-jumps. This just means that Battle Fleets are mobile enough to actually be used on offensive operations for those mere mortals who happen to do other things than Eve for a living. Harry Voyager
Selim	Posted - 2005.02.26 17:51:00 - [80] Originally by: Jakk Graiseach Originally by: Parallax Error Seeing as the devs are currently having a session of re-balancing and looking at things that aren't quite working right, isn't it time for the existance of instjump bookmarks to be re-examined? From the devchat thread: Originally by: Oveur - Instajumps weren't asked about, and are still not slated for change Your being unable to shoot properly is no reason for the devs to slow your targets down. Others in this thread have pointed out that they can still get plenty of kills. Talk to them, take lessons, don't whine - adapt or quit. I'm by no means a gatecamper, I use instajumps quite religiously - I still think they are wrong.
Sergeant Spot	Posted - 2005.02.26 18:09:00 - [81] To anyone who thinks Instas prevent a ship that is using them from getting ganked: Take a hauler, load the WCS up, and go through the infested choak points of 0.0 when you know they are loaded with the most dangerous gate gankers. Be sure to load the expensive modules in your other slots, and load the hold with good stuff too.
AvanCade	Posted - 2005.02.26 18:12:00 - [82] With the latest AB and MWD nerves, the instant bookmark policy should not change. If they are changed, then AB and MWD need to be better to catch up with the 15km.
Droidster	Posted - 2005.02.26 19:54:00 - [83] All I know is that I have made over 600 bookmarks. If CCP somehow makes them useless I will be seriously ****ed off. _____________________________________________ I am motivated by various things, mostly ISK.
Demian Sky	Posted - 2005.02.26 20:05:00 - [84] Edited by: Demian Sky on 26/02/2005 20:08:16 I agree that instas should be abolished (even though I use them profusely) but the time is not right. When the Devs open up numerous more choke points to 0.0, then the abolition of instas will be viable. Once this is done, players will be able to "chart their course" and escorts will be more practical because pirates and campers will be spread out over a wider area. Nullifying instas now, however, would be a ludicrous favor to griefers and gate campers. At the moment, I live in Period Basis, and for all practical purposes, there is only one way to empire and back: A2 (I can't fly through Fountain or Stain.) A2 is, literally, blocaded at least 21 hours out of the day by hostile forces and even with insta jumps, the chances of getting caught (as one comes out of cloak) is still quite high. So probably is it that I might get destroyed, I ship my minerals back to empire in three separate battleships at the same time (even then, I've lost billions of isk to log-on log-off gank tactics.) Getting rid of instas now would cause shippers to have to do one of two things every time they have to skip back to empire because they forgot an important component: 1. Assemble a massive fleet to defeat the blocaders in at the chokepoints; 2. Sit around and pick their nose until downtime, at which point they might be able to squeeze through. Unless you are a pea-brained griefer that's thinks what is in his own interest is in the best interest of the game, this cannot be done.
Zane Broohn	Posted - 2005.02.26 21:25:00 - [85] Happy with instas ZB "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees"
James Lyrus	Posted - 2005.02.26 21:47:00 - [86] Why not just make the 15km jump in in a random direction? So you can be 15km in front, behind, or to the side. Oh, and add as 'jump accuracy' skill that cuts down the min distance. I'm unconvinced about instas - they prove very useful for mining etc. However this has it's pros and cons. shrug they reduce the gap between frigate and freighter in terms of 'time to travel 8 jumps'. I'm unconvinced that this is either good or bad, just 'is'.
Tobiaz	Posted - 2005.02.26 22:03:00 - [87] - If you remove the instas the traveltimes will increase. Possible solution: place all gates in a 1AU radius around the sun. Increase the acceleration and deceleration for all ships. That would seriously take a big chunk out of traveltimes. - If you remove the instas the pirates will have it to easy ganking people Possible solution: Make gates warpable to 5 km. Enough time to do something, but with the Propulsion Scrambling nerf and the T2 Indies 5km should be possible to bridge. Maybe adding a module that gives a moderate chance to counter webbers. - If the instas are removed the whiners will have no 99% chance to run a blockade with double MWD nerfed as well. Possible solution: Ignore them. Risk vs. reward. Also I think bubbles should be possible to be placed up to 0.4 empire.
Tauvo Crais	Posted - 2005.02.26 22:15:00 - [88] Since the devs made the default warp in distance at 15k and the majority of the players (who pay to play this game) want to have instabookmarks then that tells you that the players (not the devs) want to have it set this way. Any time the devs say that you have to play a certain way and the player base wants to play it another way should be both a clue to the devs and to the naysayers that this will never change. Instabookmarks do not need to be nerfed.
Bozl1n	Posted - 2005.02.26 22:40:00 - [89] Originally by: Jakk Graiseach Originally by: Parallax Error Seeing as the devs are currently having a session of re-balancing and looking at things that aren't quite working right, isn't it time for the existance of instjump bookmarks to be re-examined? From the devchat thread: Originally by: Oveur - Instajumps weren't asked about, and are still not slated for change Your being unable to shoot properly is no reason for the devs to slow your targets down. Others in this thread have pointed out that they can still get plenty of kills. Talk to them, take lessons, don't whine - adapt or quit. What he said http:/eve-coldfusion.com
Jumpp	Posted - 2005.02.26 22:41:00 - [90] Players can be attacked on either side of a gate, the approach end or the departure end. Instajumps are useless as a countermeasure on the departure end, so at best they offer 50% protection against gate gankers. For all the whining about how instajumps ate your homework, the inconvenient fact remains that an awful lot of shipping gets blow'd up. Your deseperate pleas for hobbled targets will find more sympathetic ears when a glance at the galactic map shows a steep decline in ships lost. Until that dark day, expect few to take any of you seriously.

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