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Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
Darkmatter Initiative
4
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Posted - 2012.09.20 20:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
This (somewhat ridiculous) mini-threadnought eventually raised a good question (somewhere around page 8 if you're interested)
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155027&find=unread
And that is, is there a valid reason to have ship bumping in the game?
My concern/issue/problem is that it is an absolutely riskless activity with no consequences and no correspondingly cheap counter. Sure, I can shoot the guy, but in hi-sec that incurs a lost ship and a security status penalty (not to mention, if I can kill him inside 20 seconds I almost certainly lost a lot more valuable ship than he had). As a result, it strikes me as very nearly the definition of griefing. Leaving aside the issue of ganking, it's just someone causing problems for which there's no rational, reasonable solution.
There was a time when titan bumping was the only form of tackling with subcaps. With heavy interdictors, that's not the case any more.
So does this relic have a place any longer? |
Christy D Floyd
Astra Research
60
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 20:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
This is not going to end well trust me......
Money is better than poverty, if only for financial reasons. |
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
Darkmatter Initiative
4
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Posted - 2012.09.20 21:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
Christy D Floyd wrote:This is not going to end well trust me......
Am I just going to get flamed to hell and back? |
kraiklyn Asatru
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
12
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Posted - 2012.09.20 21:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
Yes, dont afk mine or just wardec. |
Rezig Huruta
Autocannons Anonymous
Late Night Alliance
47
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Posted - 2012.09.20 21:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Pretty much anything that interferes with Hi-sec shenanigans of any sort, expect to be flamed out from the sun to Hell and back to the heart of the galaxy.
Even if what you're asking is a valid question. |
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
Darkmatter Initiative
4
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Posted - 2012.09.20 21:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:Yes, dont afk mine or just wardec.
I appreciate the snark... really, I do... But not mining seems like a suboptimal solution given the way the game is constructed. Wardeccing doesn't work if they're just a single person in an NPC corp.
Rezig wrote:
Even if what you're asking is a valid question.
I'll take cold comfort in the implication that it's a valid question ;) |
Mallak Azaria
616
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 22:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
I can think of more that a few instances where bumping is extremely useful that doesn't involve afk miners. Simply put, bumping is a valid tactic.
Mining Barge buff: CCP-áhas acknowledged that miners in general-áare too stupid to make the correct fitting choices to make ganking them unprofitable. |
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
Darkmatter Initiative
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 22:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:I can think of more that a few instances where bumping is extremely useful that doesn't involve afk miners. Simply put, bumping is a valid tactic.
Are these null-sec uses where it's far from a riskless activity or are they hi-sec uses where the risk is damn near zero? |
CorInaXeraL
Order of the Silver Dragons
Silver Dragonz
204
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 22:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
Where did James 315 bump you? 
That much aside...yes. It is a valid tactic. Until such a day as ships can collide with one another for damage...totally valid. What if I see a freighter in hi-sec being a buffoon and carrying 10b isk in goodies, why should he have 0 risk for being a moron and me not be able to bump him away from the gates until a gank-squad arrives?
There are many uses beyond just this, and not simply limited to hi-sec.
Think you're just a victim of someone's bumpage and lashing out because you lost something. So...I go back to the original question. |
Mallak Azaria
616
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 23:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Seminole Sun wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:I can think of more that a few instances where bumping is extremely useful that doesn't involve afk miners. Simply put, bumping is a valid tactic. Are these null-sec uses where it's far from a riskless activity or are they hi-sec uses where the risk is damn near zero?
Does it matter? Bumping is a valid tactic in a lot of circumstances.
Mining Barge buff: CCP-áhas acknowledged that miners in general-áare too stupid to make the correct fitting choices to make ganking them unprofitable. |
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
204
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 23:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
I use it in lowsec a fair amount - tackle and double web a ship, and then try to bump it so it can't reapproach gate. |
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
Darkmatter Initiative
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 23:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
CorInaXeraL wrote:Where did James 315 bump you? That much aside...yes. It is a valid tactic. Until such a day as ships can collide with one another for damage...totally valid. What if I see a freighter in hi-sec being a buffoon and carrying 10b isk in goodies, why should he have 0 risk for being a moron and me not be able to bump him away from the gates until a gank-squad arrives? There are many uses beyond just this, and not simply limited to hi-sec. Think you're just a victim of someone's bumpage and lashing out because you lost something. So...I go back to the original question.
You'll not find a kill-mail of me anywhere in EVE that resulted from bumping. Never owned a freighter. Have very little interest in that particularly boring past time. My "problem" with the bumping is that it's completely riskless. I don't mind there being a mechanic that allows you to hold a freighter down. I just think you shouldn't be able to do it with impunity? I'd turn your question around though. If I see some ass-hat bouncing people near a gate just for fun, why shouldn't I be able to do something about it?
My choices are
1) War dec him. Hope he comes back after 24 hours in the same corp.
2) Employ the bounty system which no one actually uses
3) Gather five of my friends and alpha him, thereby losing 5 times his ship's value in our own ships while also taking a security status hit.
none of those solutions is a good solution for anyone |
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
Darkmatter Initiative
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 23:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Seminole Sun wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:I can think of more that a few instances where bumping is extremely useful that doesn't involve afk miners. Simply put, bumping is a valid tactic. Are these null-sec uses where it's far from a riskless activity or are they hi-sec uses where the risk is damn near zero? Does it matter? Bumping is a valid tactic in a lot of circumstances.
riskless tactics are not a good thing for EVE (at least IMO). That goes for hi-sec carebears like myself as well. NOTHING we do should be riskless (I LIKED Hulkageddon... mostly because I tanked my Hulk ;) |
AFKish
URBAN CHA0S
WE FORM VOLTRON
4
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Posted - 2012.09.20 23:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
I've always been a big fan of bumping, I like to think I am quiet good at it. I believe its still need as a game mechanic even if its not practical on stations like it used to be. A prime example for me of why bumping is still needed came a few months ago in the form of a maelstrom. This maelstrom was travelling through empire no "Fs" given full rack of stabs. I must have chased him 6 jumps before i finally managed to get a good line and hit him. without that single bump my gang wold never have managed to catch up and apply more pts and there never would have been a kill.
So yes I think bumping is needed like a lot of mechanics it will get abused to great effect such as mas tempests bumping titans out of shields or bumping orcas for an hr to get a ransom. In a game where scams are legit I see no reason why bumping should be outlawed. |
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
Darkmatter Initiative
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 23:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
AFKish wrote:I've always been a big fan of bumping, I like to think I am quiet good at it. I believe its still need as a game mechanic even if its not practical on stations like it used to be. A prime example for me of why bumping is still needed came a few months ago in the form of a maelstrom. This maelstrom was travelling through empire no "Fs" given full rack of stabs. I must have chased him 6 jumps before i finally managed to get a good line and hit him. without that single bump my gang wold never have managed to catch up and apply more pts and there never would have been a kill.
So yes I think bumping is needed like a lot of mechanics it will get abused to great effect such as mas tempests bumping titans out of shields or bumping orcas for an hr to get a ransom. In a game where scams are legit I see no reason why bumping should be outlawed.
I'm assuming in your example the target was already a war target of some flavor. So what you were doing was not "riskless" because he could have turned around and shot you (or called for help to shoot you or whatever). A random person just being a jerk doesn't have that particular sword of Damocles hanging over their head. |
AFKish
URBAN CHA0S
WE FORM VOLTRON
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 23:50:00 -
[16] - Quote
Seminole Sun wrote:
I'm assuming in your example the target was already a war target of some flavor. So what you were doing was not "riskless" because he could have turned around and shot you (or called for help to shoot you or whatever). A random person just being a jerk doesn't have that particular sword of Damocles hanging over their head.
Ok my next example is using a neutral alt to bump a WT off station as he undocks or when he agresses. This is riskless yet I think its fair. Another example is bumping a miner thats dieing to rats, this is also riskless and has the byproduct of being funny as hell.
As to what goons are doing bumping a freighter to hault I believe it serves a duel perpose neither of which I am against. true it stops them from warping but this happens all over eve every day whether its a gank or not, and second bumping can be used to slow a targets movement so you can apply more dps or a bigger volley. Are you proposing that we do away with ship collision all together and make ships just fly through eachother because that is a total immersion buzzkill for me.
ps. did goons gank you or somthing to make you make this post? |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Caldari State Capturing
52
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Posted - 2012.09.20 23:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
Seminole Sun wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:I can think of more that a few instances where bumping is extremely useful that doesn't involve afk miners. Simply put, bumping is a valid tactic. Are these null-sec uses where it's far from a riskless activity or are they hi-sec uses where the risk is damn near zero?
Bumping is needed. For knocking people off undock or from jump range on gates + many more uses.
I have had bumping used against me very effectively in the past. It is a useful pvp tactic and should stay.
Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
177
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 05:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Bumping is a pilot skill. It's as important to a gate camp as any other skill a pilot has. |
Martin0
Maximum-Overload
67
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 06:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
You can remove bumping IF:
-Repping people gives aggro so you can't dock/jump as soon as someone shoots your neutral alt
-Aggression timer extended to 2 minutes of more
-You can't jump anymore trough WH while aggressed |
Echo Belly
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2012.09.21 08:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
Usefulness and pilot skill matters aside, it still feels awefully goofy to witness ship bumping as it turns supposedly epic space battles into bumper cars or pogostick races... sure it's "fun" but personally i don't think it would hurt to replace it by something less *boing*boing* cartooney x: |
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Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
284
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 09:28:00 -
[21] - Quote
Biff, from Back to the Future, standing naked at the precipice of this thread.
Don't change bumping 
"For example, if you are thinking about selling a Republic Fleet Firetail as a regular Firetail, be sure that the market volume is high on regular Firetails and that there are plenty of buy/sell contracts for Republic Fleet Firetails. [...] The players most interested in Republic Fleet Firetails are going to be players flying regular ones."-á -- PB |
Dread Pirate Pete
Tribal Core
Defiant Legacy
40
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Posted - 2012.09.21 10:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
I think the problem with hisec bumping is that the bumpee is without option to respond or retaliate in kind. (no, bumping people back with a freighter does not count :p )
If you are shot at you can shoot back without hindrance.
If you are stolen from you can shoot back without hindrance.
If you are harassed by a bumper (who is in a cheap insured ship in a undecable npc corp) you can't do nothing of real value to defend yourself. Neither can your friends. All you can do is hope you have more patience than he does, which is not the best game mechanic.
Thus there needs to be a solution to allow active at the keyboard players to do something about getting harrased by a bumper. Something similar to the current theft mechanics.
(I live in lowsec and have no industrial/trader alts, at best I do ammo runs to the local hub)
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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
504
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 11:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
interfering with wars by bumping who ever you choose in high sec is far from a valid tactic.
bumping to stop warp of a freighter so it can be ganked by suicide ships is also not a valid tactic.
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
61
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 11:16:00 -
[24] - Quote
Take a VW Bug and bump it into a Tractor truck and see what happens. Odds are the truck won't move a millimeter and your VW bug will get kinda smushy in the front. Why such basic physics eludes CCP is beyond me.
Translation: If a a ship with 1/10000th the mass of a freighter hits a freighter, then it's not the freighter that should have it's speed or course changed.
EvE Forum Bingo |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2012.09.21 11:39:00 -
[25] - Quote
The question is, if bumping is removed, what should happen when ships get too close, pass through each other? |
feihcsiM
Last Exit For The Lost
Dark Therapy
53
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 11:48:00 -
[26] - Quote
You think bumping is bad now? In the old days you could nano fit a BS to the point where you could bump a miner 150km+ out of a belt.
OK, in no particular order,
Bumping is an essential tool in pvp.
Real physics do not exist in EVE.
Pinata frieghters dying in hisec is generally their own fault.
If you're getting bumped while mining then orbit the damn rock.
Thats about it.
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine. |
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
Amarr 7th Fleet
67
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 12:20:00 -
[27] - Quote
AFKish wrote:Seminole Sun wrote:
I'm assuming in your example the target was already a war target of some flavor. So what you were doing was not "riskless" because he could have turned around and shot you (or called for help to shoot you or whatever). A random person just being a jerk doesn't have that particular sword of Damocles hanging over their head.
Ok my next example is using a neutral alt to bump a WT off station as he undocks or when he agresses. This is riskless yet I think its fair. Another example is bumping a miner thats dieing to rats, this is also riskless and has the byproduct of being funny as hell. As to what goons are doing bumping a freighter to hault I believe it serves a duel perpose...
AFKish wrote:it serves a duel perpose
Funny how the worst kind of uneducated idiots are always the ones trying to become the most bad ass "griefers".  |
AFKish
URBAN CHA0S
WE FORM VOLTRON
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 12:27:00 -
[28] - Quote
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:AFKish wrote:it serves a duel perpose Funny how the worst kind of uneducated idiots are always the ones trying to become the most bad ass "griefers".
Project Nemesis, Moar Tears look us up some time. |
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 12:55:00 -
[29] - Quote
AFKish wrote:Seminole Sun wrote:
I'm assuming in your example the target was already a war target of some flavor. So what you were doing was not "riskless" because he could have turned around and shot you (or called for help to shoot you or whatever). A random person just being a jerk doesn't have that particular sword of Damocles hanging over their head.
Ok my next example is using a neutral alt to bump a WT off station as he undocks or when he agresses. This is riskless yet I think its fair. Another example is bumping a miner thats dieing to rats, this is also riskless and has the byproduct of being funny as hell. As to what goons are doing bumping a freighter to hault I believe it serves a duel perpose neither of which I am against. true it stops them from warping but this happens all over eve every day whether its a gank or not, and second bumping can be used to slow a targets movement so you can apply more dps or a bigger volley. Are you proposing that we do away with ship collision all together and make ships just fly through eachother because that is a total immersion buzzkill for me.
Surely you're not defending the collision system at present. It's a mess... How many times have you gotten randomly stuck near an asteroid or, worse, the giant reindeer antler looking thing in some missions.
Docking games need to be fixed. The fact that you have to do bumping to counter it is evidence that the docking situation is broken (both the "unseeable" undock... speaking of immersion buzzkill and the too easy redock). That's not evidence of good design or intent on bumping
AFKish wrote:
ps. did goons gank you or somthing to make you make this post?
Nope (I think I already answered this). Never been ganked. Nor have I been a victim of the Halaima ice miner bumping epidemic (those posts are hilarious btw). It just bothers me that there's a riskless griefing mechanic in game (I'd be complaining about the mechanic even if it was completely unconnected to tackling, ganking or anything else).
For the record, I'd like it REPLACED not just removed. I'm not sure with what, however. |
Praxis Ginimic
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
37
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Posted - 2012.09.21 14:49:00 -
[30] - Quote
I would LOVE to see a collision mechanic in place. If a heavy armored cruiser bumps a mining rig at top speed then mass amounts of damage to miner. If a nano frig bumps a freighter the frig just pops. Im not gonna pretend to have thought through this at all but it would be cool. Maybe a ramming speed mod...reinforced prow for tearing through enemy hulls. And 'cause it causes damage you can shoot back. It could still effect speed and trajectory to continue to be used as it is now |
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