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Virtual Items for real Money = real theft? in real courts?

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Abrazzar	Posted - 2011.08.04 09:55:00 - [31] There is no reverse convertibility supported by CCP for Aurum and its items. There is no transfer of ownership of said items, too. Effectively, it is a service agreement to rent a certain exclusive toy to play with in the playground. One you cannot take home or get refunded should you happen to lose it while playing (unless foul play was at hand). So, no, destroying/stealing/scamming NeX related items cannot be legal theft, even when game rules were broken to accomplish it. --------
KaarBaak Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe	Posted - 2011.08.04 10:13:00 - [32] As explained, the one-way exchange is how CCP protects itself from such action. It's also why they are so diligent pursuing RMT type exchanges on eBay and the like. If they become aware of such transactions and decline to take action, it could be seen as consent for RMT of virtual goods and land them in exactly the kind of hot water described. Same reason why they, and most other companies are so diligent about protecting IP. It's why you see cases of companies like Disney shutting down little kids' lemonade stands that use Mickey Mouse on their posters. Circumstances rule men; men do not rule circumstances. --Herodotus, Histories
Phelan Votronski	Posted - 2011.08.04 10:27:00 - [33] Originally by: KaarBaak It's why you see cases of companies like Disney shutting down little kids' lemonade stands that use Mickey Mouse on their posters. Uhhm no... That's because lawyers are ****s.
Agent 42 Gallente RADIO RAMPAGE	Posted - 2011.08.04 10:47:00 - [34] OP made me realize exactly why it's so distasteful for an MMO to have MT. At first I thought it was the fact that content should be free if we pay a monthly fee for added content. However, if the content is truly derived from a third party as CCP claims than I can see it semi justified as CCP isn't diverting in-house resources for **** we don't want. In this scenario assuming it's accurate NEX is a way to expand the game rather than dilute the game. The fact that a company collecting millions each year from subs then asking their loyal player base to shell out more for digital trash isn't the most insulting aspect of this. What really grinds my nerves are the stupidly high cost and the fact that itmes in MMO's are temporary. EVE requires CCP to keep the servers active. If someone buys horse armor for Oblivion, while it may be a completely shallow waste of money, but at least you own the horse armor. In an MMO you don't own the MT items, you own the right to use the item for as long as CCP decides to keep the servers running. LOL people who bought a monocle paid 70$ to rent a digital accessory. But hey maybe monocle owners will get an early beta to the Vampire MMO seeing as how EVE is reaching EOL.
Alissa Solette	Posted - 2011.08.04 11:45:00 - [35] Edited by: Alissa Solette on 04/08/2011 11:45:43 Originally by: Monstress Nothing has changed. NeX items are available on the ISK market so people who really want them and don't have the ISK will buy a PLEX and spend it but the smarter people will spend ISK. It makes no difference if you personally paid RL money or ISK. The fact of the matter is that the item has a real life price tag attached to it. Think of it like this: Scenario 1: We go into a store together and you buy a T-shirt. As soon as we're outside of the store I steal your T-shirt and run away. That is a crime. Scenario 2: We go into a store together and you notice that you've not got enough money to buy the T-shirt. I buy the T-shirt for you and "trade" it to you against a date with your attractive sister. A day later I come along and steal your T-shirt. That's still a crime. It's irrelevant who spent the money on the product initially and how many times it was traded and for what. The product still has an "owner" and stealing it from that owner is forbidden, no matter what kind of currency or barter system was used to previously transfer ownership.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2011.08.04 12:07:00 - [36] Originally by: Alissa Solette Edited by: Alissa Solette on 04/08/2011 11:45:43 Originally by: Monstress Nothing has changed. NeX items are available on the ISK market so people who really want them and don't have the ISK will buy a PLEX and spend it but the smarter people will spend ISK. It makes no difference if you personally paid RL money or ISK. The fact of the matter is that the item has a real life price tag attached to it. Think of it like this: Scenario 1: We go into a store together and you buy a T-shirt. As soon as we're outside of the store I steal your T-shirt and run away. That is a crime. Scenario 2: We go into a store together and you notice that you've not got enough money to buy the T-shirt. I buy the T-shirt for you and "trade" it to you against a date with your attractive sister. A day later I come along and steal your T-shirt. That's still a crime. It's irrelevant who spent the money on the product initially and how many times it was traded and for what. The product still has an "owner" and stealing it from that owner is forbidden, no matter what kind of currency or barter system was used to previously transfer ownership. You don't buy a t-shirt. You don't buy anything. It's a service agreement, not a purchase. You are renting virtual assets for playing in the game and in the game only. Taking it outside is neither possible nor allowed. Taking RL money for renting it to another player is a violation of the service agreement and will get you thrown out of the playground with no refunds. Theft requires ownership. You don't own NeX items No theft is legally possible. (at least not from the side of CCP and within the boundaries of the game environment) It is always the same flawed reasoning coming up in threads like this, just to keep a inane discussion going.... --------
Tippia Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.08.04 12:38:00 - [37] Originally by: Tron Flux How often do you see eula's challenged in court? Almost never. They are notoriously difficult to enforce. àbut at the same time, a EULA is not much different than the rules of a sports event: it prescribes rules that everyone engaging in that activity agree on, so anything that doesn't break the EULA will be pretty hard to go after. Originally by: Alissa Solette It makes no difference if you personally paid RL money or ISK. The fact of the matter is that the item has a real life price tag attached to it. But that's just it: the NeX items do not have a real-life price tag in the proper sense. They have an AUR tag or, should someone want to make a loss, an ISK tag. What has a real-life price tag is the GTC/PLEX, and once you have that, the real-life connection ends. You have gotten exactly what you pay for and the obligation is fulfilled. What you choose to do with that is up to you, and blowing it up (by choice or because you gambled and lost) is a completely valid option that does not change the fact that you already got what you paid for. It is now an in-game item subject to those in-game rules you have accepted to follow ù losing stuff is not a loss of RL money because you have already gotten your money's worth. The transaction is completed in full. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.08.04 13:16:00 - [38] Originally by: Tron Flux It gets back to the GMs post above. CCP sells you something totally protected: gtc, after that it's your choice to bring those protected gtc into the magic boxing ring. Why is it called a "magic circle" and a "boxing ring" when it's square? There is no monocle.
Not-Apsalar	Posted - 2011.08.04 13:18:00 - [39] Originally by: mkint 100 AUR = $0.43. That's is a fixed number, not affected by the game economy. The exchange rate of $ -> AUR is set by CCP. It is a real world currency (the fact that they refuse to exchange the other direction shows exactly how worthless this scam currency really is.) CCP is breaking the law buy not registering as a bank. Anyone who scams for AUR items (boots are worth exactly $4.29) is scamming for a real world currency. CCP not enforcing real world anti-scam laws with AUR items is obstruction. 1 Big Mac = $3.57. That is a fixed number, not affected by the game economy. Doesn't make it a currency, though.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.04 13:50:00 - [40] Originally by: GM Homonoia DISCLAMER: The following is my personal opinion and does not necessarily constitute the official position of CCP. Until a court of law decides otherwise, the principle of the "magic circle" applies. Is it allowed to hit someone in the face and break his nose? No, this is forbidden by law. However, in the magic circle of a boxing match this is allowed; those are part of the rules of the game and everyone stepping into the ring should have familiarized themselves with those rules. Nail meet head, +1

Goldman Suchs	Posted - 2011.08.04 13:52:00 - [41] Quote: Why is it called a "magic circle" and a "boxing ring" when it's square? Why do cars have shampoo when they don't have any hair?
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.04 13:54:00 - [42] Originally by: Ingvar Angst Originally by: Tron Flux It gets back to the GMs post above. CCP sells you something totally protected: gtc, after that it's your choice to bring those protected gtc into the magic boxing ring. Why is it called a "magic circle" and a "boxing ring" when it's square? It's an atavism.
Sandrestal	Posted - 2011.08.04 14:06:00 - [43] There is one tenuous aspect here that trouble me. All that is said about CCP owning everything may be true and if there was no sanctioned connection between rl money and isk, all would be good. The problem we have are plex cards. Plex establishes a link between isk and cash and is sanctioned by CCP. So you can use rl money to buy isk and just the opposite is true also....that you can use isk as rl money to pay for your acct. I suspect a smart lawyer could use this idea as the foundation for a clever lawsuit. If plex buyer has no isk and sells a card for 600 million isk and then buys and loses a spaceship, there stands the possibility of bringing suit for not the loss of the tangible object i.e spaceship, but for the pain and suffering endured. The lost ship was purchased using rl money and not from the effort of working in game to earn the isk. While the "magic circle" may cover most cases, if a boxer used something like brass knuckles hidden inside his gloves or it was found out that someone paid the ref to not step in quick enough to end a fight and a boxer died...then a crime was committed. If you rent a apartment, the building may belong to the landlord but the possessions you buy and move into the apartment are yours. So CCP has to be very careful as to how they manage the rl money and game connections or someone really well off may decide to test CCP on who really owns what in the game. As a aside, has there ever been a case where game items ownership was challenged in a court of law?
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.04 14:13:00 - [44] Edited by: Mendolus on 04/08/2011 14:14:29 Originally by: Sandrestal There is one tenuous aspect here that trouble me. All that is said about CCP owning everything may be true and if there was no sanctioned connection between rl money and isk, all would be good. The problem we have are plex cards. Plex establishes a link between isk and cash and is sanctioned by CCP. So you can use rl money to buy isk and just the opposite is true also....that you can use isk as rl money to pay for your acct. I suspect a smart lawyer could use this idea as the foundation for a clever lawsuit. If plex buyer has no isk and sells a card for 600 million isk and then buys and loses a spaceship, there stands the possibility of bringing suit for not the loss of the tangible object i.e spaceship, but for the pain and suffering endured. The lost ship was purchased using rl money and not from the effort of working in game to earn the isk. While the "magic circle" may cover most cases, if a boxer used something like brass knuckles hidden inside his gloves or it was found out that someone paid the ref to not step in quick enough to end a fight and a boxer died...then a crime was committed. If you rent a apartment, the building may belong to the landlord but the possessions you buy and move into the apartment are yours. So CCP has to be very careful as to how they manage the rl money and game connections or someone really well off may decide to test CCP on who really owns what in the game. As a aside, has there ever been a case where game items ownership was challenged in a court of law? Not trying to be facetious or bother you honestly, but you seem to be missing that many new games these days have all manner of DLC or various perks that can be purchased to enhance one's gaming experience. Of special note are the numerous P2P games that have content and equipment that you literally have to purchase with real life transactions in order to gain access to or acquire.
Tippia Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.08.04 14:23:00 - [45] Originally by: Sandrestal If plex buyer has no isk and sells a card for 600 million isk and then buys and loses a spaceship, there stands the possibility of bringing suit for not the loss of the tangible object i.e spaceship, but for the pain and suffering endured. The lost ship was purchased using rl money and not from the effort of working in game to earn the isk. But again: the ship wasn't bought using RL money. What RL money bought you was a GTC/PLEX, and once you got your hands on that, the connection to real life was cut. The transaction is complete, and you have what you wanted. From that point onwards, all you have is an in-game object that works like all in-game objects. Losing those items are not different in any way to losing any other kind of in-game object, regardless of how you came into possession of them. If you sell that PLEX for ISK, you now have nothing that ties you back to RL, not even the tenuous one the PLEX represents. The problem with the PLEX-ISK link is that it doesn't actually link back to real money ù it's a one way street. It is 100% your choice if you don't want the one real-life service the PLEX provides. It is 100% your choice if you want to gamble it in-game. If you give it away for something else, then there is no longer even a shred of a real-life connection left. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.08.04 15:02:00 - [46] I think that if you live in a country with hordes of venal lawyers who indulge in this nonsense CCP ought to just block the IP addresses based on country (and yes its utterly trivial to do). Problem solved.
Sandrestal	Posted - 2011.08.04 15:09:00 - [47] Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 04/08/2011 14:14:29 Originally by: Sandrestal There is one tenuous aspect here that trouble me. All that is said about CCP owning everything may be true and if there was no sanctioned connection between rl money and isk, all would be good. The problem we have are plex cards. Plex establishes a link between isk and cash and is sanctioned by CCP. So you can use rl money to buy isk and just the opposite is true also....that you can use isk as rl money to pay for your acct. I suspect a smart lawyer could use this idea as the foundation for a clever lawsuit. If plex buyer has no isk and sells a card for 600 million isk and then buys and loses a spaceship, there stands the possibility of bringing suit for not the loss of the tangible object i.e spaceship, but for the pain and suffering endured. The lost ship was purchased using rl money and not from the effort of working in game to earn the isk. While the "magic circle" may cover most cases, if a boxer used something like brass knuckles hidden inside his gloves or it was found out that someone paid the ref to not step in quick enough to end a fight and a boxer died...then a crime was committed. If you rent a apartment, the building may belong to the landlord but the possessions you buy and move into the apartment are yours. So CCP has to be very careful as to how they manage the rl money and game connections or someone really well off may decide to test CCP on who really owns what in the game. As a aside, has there ever been a case where game items ownership was challenged in a court of law? Not trying to be facetious or bother you honestly, but you seem to be missing that many new games these days have all manner of DLC or various perks that can be purchased to enhance one's gaming experience. Of special note are the numerous P2P games that have content and equipment that you literally have to purchase with real life transactions in order to gain access to or acquire. Gaining access is something that can't be destroyed. Since I don't play other mmo's, do the others items get destroyed if you get killed or do they respawn with the character?
Sandrestal	Posted - 2011.08.04 15:16:00 - [48] Originally by: Tippia But again: the ship wasn't bought using RL money. What RL money bought you was a GTC/PLEX, and once you got your hands on that, the connection to real life was cut. The transaction is complete, and you have what you wanted. Not neccessarily. If you buy in r/l a item that was stolen by somebody else, the item is not yours to keep if the real owner finds out the item is in your possession. As long as there is a connection of r/l money to isk, the link is not broken and a good lawyer may find some law on the books that upholds that. Stretching it a bit perhaps, but such cases crop up in r/l so don't discount the possibility it might happen.
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises	Posted - 2011.08.04 15:18:00 - [49] No. In game theft is not RL theft because there is not a sanctioned way to convert anything in game to RL currency. There is an exception to this rule, this case, as far as I am aware. Basically, it requires an excessive amount of meta gaming to be considered a RL crime. This signature is useless, but it is red.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.04 15:26:00 - [50] Originally by: Sandrestal Originally by: Tippia But again: the ship wasn't bought using RL money. What RL money bought you was a GTC/PLEX, and once you got your hands on that, the connection to real life was cut. The transaction is complete, and you have what you wanted. Not neccessarily. If you buy in r/l a item that was stolen by somebody else, the item is not yours to keep if the real owner finds out the item is in your possession. As long as there is a connection of r/l money to isk, the link is not broken and a good lawyer may find some law on the books that upholds that. Stretching it a bit perhaps, but such cases crop up in r/l so don't discount the possibility it might happen. Sorry friend, this is a slippery slope that few dare tread, as most people have at least enough common sense to realize where things like this lead. Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc.	Posted - 2011.08.04 15:29:00 - [51] My view is in line with a few previous posters. CCP owns all the content. Even if you buy some surperfluous or game effecting item with real money you are unable to then reconvert said item back into real cash. The claim of theft would only, and I mean only, be able to stand up in a pre-trial if, and only if, said item could then be 'legally' sold for real life cash. Even then it is unlikely as the EULA states clearly that CCP retain rights to all pixils displayed when the client is activated. Slade :Signature Temporarily Disabled:
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises	Posted - 2011.08.04 15:40:00 - [52] Originally by: Slade Trillgon My view is in line with a few previous posters. CCP owns all the content. Even if you buy some surperfluous or game effecting item with real money you are unable to then reconvert said item back into real cash. The claim of theft would only, and I mean only, be able to stand up in a pre-trial if, and only if, said item could then be 'legally' sold for real life cash. Even then it is unlikely as the EULA states clearly that CCP retain rights to all pixils displayed when the client is activated. Slade Or, as in the case I linked, be something a person can reasonably assume to be their own, because no other person is able to take it from them using game mechanics. Absolutely nothing in Eve fits this bill. The NeX goods definitely slide closer down that slippery slope though. I'm curious to see how the first "clothing lost due to weird lag situation while being worn" followed by "the logs don't show anything" situation turns out. This signature is useless, but it is red.
John Caesse Caldari Navy of Xoc The Remnant Legion	Posted - 2011.08.04 15:55:00 - [53] No, you're totally right. The little bit of knowledge you picked up from reading the transcript of a speech given by a lawyer makes you an expert on the subject and vastly more experience and informed than the legal teams of CCP and countless other game developers. Or you're a moron. Its one of the two, I'm going with the latter.
Tippia Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.08.04 16:02:00 - [54] Originally by: Sandrestal As long as there is a connection of r/l money to isk But that's just it: there isn't. You can't buy ISK for money. Well, unless you break the EULA and go to an RMTer, which establishes a trade that could probably be challenged if you don't get the goods you've paid for (but then again, why bother ù you'll both just get banned). The fact remains: as soon as you get that PLEX, you have gotten exactly what you paid for, and everything beyond that is just you acting within the rules of the game. The game rules let you be as careless as you like with that stuff, up to and including trashing it, blowing it up, letting others blow it up, giving it away (willingly or otherwise), trading it, etc etc etc. It is no different than playing Monopoly and landing on a square where someone put up a hotel ù you lost a crapton of in-game money. You can't really sue them for that, even if you did buy both the Monopoly game itself and the cakes you've all been eating during the game session. Cases have popped up IRL when none of that was allowed ù here, it is, and you and everyone else involved agreed that it is. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP
Sandrestal	Posted - 2011.08.04 16:16:00 - [55] Originally by: Slade Trillgon My view is in line with a few previous posters. CCP owns all the content. Even if you buy some surperfluous or game effecting item with real money you are unable to then reconvert said item back into real cash. The claim of theft would only, and I mean only, be able to stand up in a pre-trial if, and only if, said item could then be 'legally' sold for real life cash. Even then it is unlikely as the EULA states clearly that CCP retain rights to all pixils displayed when the client is activated. Slade Yet, other than the EULA, buying and selling isk for r/l money occurs all the time and is not illegal.
Ranger 1 Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2011.08.04 16:35:00 - [56] Originally by: Sandrestal Originally by: Slade Trillgon My view is in line with a few previous posters. CCP owns all the content. Even if you buy some surperfluous or game effecting item with real money you are unable to then reconvert said item back into real cash. The claim of theft would only, and I mean only, be able to stand up in a pre-trial if, and only if, said item could then be 'legally' sold for real life cash. Even then it is unlikely as the EULA states clearly that CCP retain rights to all pixils displayed when the client is activated. Slade Yet, other than the EULA, buying and selling isk for r/l money occurs all the time and is not illegal. Actually the people selling that ISK do not own it, nor do they have a legal right to sell it. They are selling something that belongs to CCP. Questions of legality vary all the time from country to country, but as a general rule it is illegal to sell things that you do not own. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Sandrestal	Posted - 2011.08.04 16:43:00 - [57] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Sandrestal Originally by: Slade Trillgon My view is in line with a few previous posters. CCP owns all the content. Even if you buy some surperfluous or game effecting item with real money you are unable to then reconvert said item back into real cash. The claim of theft would only, and I mean only, be able to stand up in a pre-trial if, and only if, said item could then be 'legally' sold for real life cash. Even then it is unlikely as the EULA states clearly that CCP retain rights to all pixils displayed when the client is activated. Slade Yet, other than the EULA, buying and selling isk for r/l money occurs all the time and is not illegal. Actually the people selling that ISK do not own it, nor do they have a legal right to sell it. They are selling something that belongs to CCP. Questions of legality vary all the time from country to country, but as a general rule it is illegal to sell things that you do not own. Other than bans, has any isk seller been prosecuted? Been sued by CCP? By doing nothing of real consequence, CCP is saying it is OK to sell isk.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.04 16:56:00 - [58] Edited by: Mendolus on 04/08/2011 16:57:59 Originally by: Sandrestal Other than bans, has any isk seller been prosecuted? Been sued by CCP? By doing nothing of real consequence, CCP is saying it is OK to sell isk. What, you mean entering into diplomatic talks with countries such as China to extradite their nationals to Iceland for prosecution? Good luck with that. This is the real world, not the world of sugar plum fairies. International crime is just as hard to prosecute in real life, let alone crime concerning virtual goods, and even more remotely so with profiteering on closed circuit intellectual property in online entertainment venues. Most industrialized countries in the world are not even equipped to handle their own internal crime to begin with. This discussion is an exercise in frivolity at best, as others have so kindly explained without explicitly saying it. Edit: CCP bans the offenders as best as possible, just like the majority of online game developers have for a decade or so now. Beyond that, good luck buddy, good luck.
Ranger 1 Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2011.08.04 17:03:00 - [59] Originally by: Sandrestal Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Sandrestal Originally by: Slade Trillgon My view is in line with a few previous posters. CCP owns all the content. Even if you buy some surperfluous or game effecting item with real money you are unable to then reconvert said item back into real cash. The claim of theft would only, and I mean only, be able to stand up in a pre-trial if, and only if, said item could then be 'legally' sold for real life cash. Even then it is unlikely as the EULA states clearly that CCP retain rights to all pixils displayed when the client is activated. Slade Yet, other than the EULA, buying and selling isk for r/l money occurs all the time and is not illegal. Actually the people selling that ISK do not own it, nor do they have a legal right to sell it. They are selling something that belongs to CCP. Questions of legality vary all the time from country to country, but as a general rule it is illegal to sell things that you do not own. Other than bans, has any isk seller been prosecuted? Been sued by CCP? By doing nothing of real consequence, CCP is saying it is OK to sell isk. If somebody steals from me and I decide for whatever reason not to press charges, that does not mean that theft is no longer a crime. Other than that, refer to the post above this one. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.04 17:06:00 - [60] Edited by: Mendolus on 04/08/2011 17:06:38 Originally by: Ranger 1 If somebody steals from me and I decide for whatever reason not to press charges, that does not mean that theft is no longer a crime. Other than that, refer to the post above this one. Exactly, ISK sellers are committing crimes sure, but the laws to prosecute them either do not exist, or are impossible to enforce across international borders. @Sandrestal, all you have to do is look at landmark cases in just the past few years to know this.



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