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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Sandrestal
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Posted - 2011.08.04 17:18:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Mendolus
Edited by: Mendolus on 04/08/2011 17:06:38
Originally by: Ranger 1
If somebody steals from me and I decide for whatever reason not to press charges, that does not mean that theft is no longer a crime.
Other than that, refer to the post above this one.
Exactly, ISK sellers are committing crimes sure, but the laws to prosecute them either do not exist, or are impossible to enforce across international borders.
@Sandrestal, all you have to do is look at landmark cases in just the past few years to know this.
If you care to link some rl case where a seller of ingame currancy for rl money was prosecuted I'd certainly read it with interest. Just what crime are isk sellers committing? Not trying to be obtuse or dense.
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Ranger 1
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2011.08.04 17:20:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 04/08/2011 17:22:14
Originally by: Sandrestal
Originally by: Mendolus
Edited by: Mendolus on 04/08/2011 17:06:38
Originally by: Ranger 1
If somebody steals from me and I decide for whatever reason not to press charges, that does not mean that theft is no longer a crime.
Other than that, refer to the post above this one.
Exactly, ISK sellers are committing crimes sure, but the laws to prosecute them either do not exist, or are impossible to enforce across international borders.
@Sandrestal, all you have to do is look at landmark cases in just the past few years to know this.
If you care to link some rl case where a seller of ingame currancy for rl money was prosecuted I'd certainly read it with interest. Just what crime are isk sellers committing? Not trying to be obtuse or dense.
As has been pointed out, it is impractical and certainly not cost effective to prosecute.
Answer me this, in what country is it legal to sell something for your personal profit that is not in fact your property. Particularly when the people that own that item expressly forbid reselling of that item in any way.
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The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Eternal Evocations
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Posted - 2011.08.04 17:30:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Sandrestal
Originally by: Mendolus
Edited by: Mendolus on 04/08/2011 17:06:38
Originally by: Ranger 1
If somebody steals from me and I decide for whatever reason not to press charges, that does not mean that theft is no longer a crime.
Other than that, refer to the post above this one.
Exactly, ISK sellers are committing crimes sure, but the laws to prosecute them either do not exist, or are impossible to enforce across international borders.
@Sandrestal, all you have to do is look at landmark cases in just the past few years to know this.
If you care to link some rl case where a seller of ingame currancy for rl money was prosecuted I'd certainly read it with interest. Just what crime are isk sellers committing? Not trying to be obtuse or dense.
Not sure I understand your confusion, do you not understand intellectual property rights and how they are or are not able to be applied internationally? Not all countries even have intellectual property rights in their legal verbatim yet, let alone active cases working their way through the system.
I am not getting paid to look up legal documents and records for an anonymous poster on the internet. Please do your own research.
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Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2011.08.04 17:48:00 -
[64]
Could argue it either way, but prolly most courts at the moment would dismiss any attempts to claim that virtual goods sold for an in-game currency, derived from a game time code which cannot be converted into cash [and thereby no longer has cash value], are the equivalent to real goods. Furthermore, I'm fairly sure that in the EULA there is a provision which makes CCP the owner of all EVE accounts, and all items stored on those accounts, and if that's the case a player wouldn't have standing to sue since the pirate/ganker/scammer stole from CCP and not the player. Besides which, as the good GM pointed out, we as a society condone behavior in certain restricted settings that would otherwise constitute a criminal act.
*This post does not constitute legal advice.
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John Caesse
Caldari
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.04 18:07:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Sandrestal
Just what crime are isk sellers committing? Not trying to be obtuse or dense.
They are selling something they do not own or have the right to sell. Depending on where you are in the world that can be referred to in several different ways. In the US, depending on how you want to go about proving it, you could go with a theft or fencing charge (larceny, sale under false pretenses, various stolen property charges) or if you wanted to go federal you could probably prove some form of fraud, maybe 18 U.S.C. º1341.
The problem you run into is laws don't specifically cover the stuff in question, meaning you'd be asking the courts to set a precedent.
All in all, by seeking out/banning offenders and enforcing the EULA, CCP demonstrates that they do not condone the activity and are not responsible those who engage in the activity anyways. Holding CCP responsible for those engaging in the illicit sale of ISK would be like holding a government responsible for the actions of its citizens (excluding those acting in agency, of course).
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2011.08.04 18:12:00 -
[66]
Originally by: John Caesse
Originally by: Sandrestal
Just what crime are isk sellers committing? Not trying to be obtuse or dense.
They are selling something they do not own or have the right to sell. Depending on where you are in the world that can be referred to in several different ways. In the US, depending on how you want to go about proving it, you could go with a theft or fencing charge (larceny, sale under false pretenses, various stolen property charges) or if you wanted to go federal you could probably prove some form of fraud, maybe 18 U.S.C. º1341.
The problem you run into is laws don't specifically cover the stuff in question, meaning you'd be asking the courts to set a precedent.
All in all, by seeking out/banning offenders and enforcing the EULA, CCP demonstrates that they do not condone the activity and are not responsible those who engage in the activity anyways. Holding CCP responsible for those engaging in the illicit sale of ISK would be like holding a government responsible for the actions of its citizens (excluding those acting in agency, of course).
RMTers can always claim they are merely providing a service, being paid for the time and effort expended to acquire the game items, and not selling those items directly.
If it were obviously illegal, someone somewhere would have already filed a suit or a dozen against RMT companies.
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Marchocias
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Posted - 2011.08.04 18:15:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Marchocias on 04/08/2011 18:15:27
I think this discussion needs some sense of perspective.
Edit: I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.
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Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died? |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.08.04 18:24:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Mendolus
Not sure I understand your confusion, do you not understand intellectual property rights and how they are or are not able to be applied internationally? Not all countries even have intellectual property rights in their legal verbatim yet, let alone active cases working their way through the system.
I am not getting paid to look up legal documents and records for an anonymous poster on the internet. Please do your own research.
There is however the question of how the login details have been acquired to enable someone to sell these assets in the first place.
Gaining unauthorized access to a computer system is considered a felony in many jurisdictions, and that typically includes using valid login credentials not intended for use by the attacker.
Prosecution is on another page however, and often difficult due to the attacker possibly being located in a different country than the victim.
In the case of EVE account details, not knowing icelandic law I'd guess it would be CCP that actually had to try for prosecution as they'd be the 'victim', and not the customer himself.
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John Caesse
Caldari
Navy of Xoc
The Remnant Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.04 19:22:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Abrazzar
RMTers can always claim they are merely providing a service, being paid for the time and effort expended to acquire the game items, and not selling those items directly.
If it were obviously illegal, someone somewhere would have already filed a suit or a dozen against RMT companies.
That was kind of my point, its not obviously illegal - you would be looking to set a precedent. I actually think it would be detrimental to games and the at-large gaming community to prosecute these kinds of offenses; the types of things that would have to be established in court regarding the status of virtual items and in-game currency would probably cause myriad problems for the industry, while only gaining the right to prosecute a specific set of EULA violators.
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Sandrestal
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Posted - 2011.08.04 22:55:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: Mendolus
Not sure I understand your confusion, do you not understand intellectual property rights and how they are or are not able to be applied internationally? Not all countries even have intellectual property rights in their legal verbatim yet, let alone active cases working their way through the system.
I am not getting paid to look up legal documents and records for an anonymous poster on the internet. Please do your own research.
There is however the question of how the login details have been acquired to enable someone to sell these assets in the first place.
Gaining unauthorized access to a computer system is considered a felony in many jurisdictions, and that typically includes using valid login credentials not intended for use by the attacker.
Prosecution is on another page however, and often difficult due to the attacker possibly being located in a different country than the victim.
In the case of EVE account details, not knowing icelandic law I'd guess it would be CCP that actually had to try for prosecution as they'd be the 'victim', and not the customer himself.
Why would you need login details? I give you real life money and my in game character name. You then transfer isk to my character acct in game. How the transfer is done is up to both parties involved.
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Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
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Posted - 2011.08.04 23:28:00 -
[71]
law isn't about what you feel is right.
It is about what is on the books and what rulings have been in the past that can in tiny increments be applied to different areas. Well I'm not qualified to write an essay on precedence etc.
You can't have a very good conversation with some people talking about law and other's talking about what they think right and wrong is .
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.08.04 23:29:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 04/08/2011 23:29:41
Originally by: Sandrestal
Why would you need login details? I give you real life money and my in game character name. You then transfer isk to my character acct in game. How the transfer is done is up to both parties involved.
I think you missed the context there, I was talking about the common practice of illegally accessing accounts and selling the assets for RL money. There is currently a rather prominent large-scale incident in south korea.
As far as you buying ingame currency farmed by legal (ingame) methods for RL money, that is obviously fine as long as you dont have a problem with buying essentially nothing when the game company takes it away as per their EULA, and possibly terminates your account.
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