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Virtual Items for real Money = real theft? in real courts?

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Valentina Valentia Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2011.08.03 23:34:00 - [1] Just an interesting thought - since at EVE Vegas the legal guy presented the reason that CCP doesnt want to become a bank because if it started to issue currency in game that has a RL value exchange it would become a bank in some countries legal systems. Then you have the whole EVe bank and other things being commented on in various RL money magazines - IS ingame currency theft REAL crime or not? Now we have RM virtual items, but we now that until now at least anything you stold in EVE was "make believe" in most peoples eyes and certainly was under the legal system. Now... we have these RM ingame items... doesn' this open up for RL issues of exchange and legal actions over ingame crimes? it would seem to do so... Commentary requested, lets play HARDBALL!... get Funkybacon in here he sounds just like Chris Mathews ______________ Effete Noir - a wonderful virtual cologne for the discerning Pod-Pilot - 4500 Aur - BUY.
Alpheias Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2011.08.03 23:38:00 - [2] What? ♫ When your ship gets blown to bits ♫ And you lose your Faction fits \☻/ Don't worry ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ Be Happy \☻/
Meryl SinGarda Caldari Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team	Posted - 2011.08.03 23:38:00 - [3] It's a game. Fly safe, Die hard
Monstress	Posted - 2011.08.03 23:39:00 - [4] Nothing has changed. NeX items are available on the ISK market so people who really want them and don't have the ISK will buy a PLEX and spend it but the smarter people will spend ISK. Just like people who buy PLEXes to support their PVP habits, nothing has changed.
0oO0oOoOo0o	Posted - 2011.08.03 23:39:00 - [5] Edited by: 0oO0oOoOo0o on 03/08/2011 23:40:23 Originally by: Valentina Valentia Then you have the whole EVe bank and other things being commented on in various RL money magazines - IS ingame currency theft REAL crime or not? Yes it is. If you gank my hulk again, I'm going to sue you for robbery and criminal mischief so that you end up many years in prison.
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2011.08.03 23:42:00 - [6] what _____________________ Look down. Back up. Where are you? You're on a forum, with the alt your alt could post like.
Alpheias Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2011.08.03 23:43:00 - [7] in the butt ♫ When your ship gets blown to bits ♫ And you lose your Faction fits \☻/ Don't worry ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ Be Happy \☻/
Meryl SinGarda Caldari Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team	Posted - 2011.08.03 23:45:00 - [8] in the what what Fly safe, Die hard
Grey Stormshadow Starwreck Industries	Posted - 2011.08.03 23:48:00 - [9] I need less funky and more bacon to explain what op just said.
Monstress	Posted - 2011.08.03 23:54:00 - [10] Originally by: Grey Stormshadow I need less funky and more bacon to explain what op just said. OP is probably on drugs. I don't think bacon will help.

Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.08.03 23:57:00 - [11] Originally by: Valentina Valentia Now... we have these RM ingame items... doesn' this open up for RL issues of exchange and legal actions over ingame crimes? it would seem to do so... There are no RM ingame items, so this isnt a problem.
Olleybear Minmatar I R' Carebear	Posted - 2011.08.03 23:58:00 - [12] Explosion Local Chatter: Pirate: Haha! We violence your boat! Kid: !&%^$@#&^#&^#&@ and (&#(&#(* not to mention your moms (&$(&$#(%&$#(&% Pirate: BAHAHAHAHA!!! Kid 5 minutes later: Hello? 911? Someone just blew up my boat! 911 Operator: Terror! Fire and Brimestone! We shall bring in the FBI, NSA, DHS! Kid: Yay! 1 month later on the local news seeing 23 year old dragged away in chains: Reporter: Is it true Mr Pirate that you said, and I quote, "We violence your boat", after blowing up kids boats in a video game, after he used his moms crdit card without here knowledge, and utterly destroyed this young genius's business opportunity to "Bring home the bacon" for his family as it were? Pirate: WTF? Its a game! I blew up internet space pixels you (&$(&#!!! Cop: We now have a confession on tape. Lock him up! Kid: Yay! 1 month later in Eve local: Crickets.... Lots of crickets.... Crickets multiplying like crazy... Eve server crashes as everyone at CCP in jail for making international terrorism on various countries child populations. Lawyers: Bahahaha!!!
Sweet Jane Liche	Posted - 2011.08.03 23:59:00 - [13] OP cannot afford a monocle and is looking for ANYTHING that he can blame his feelings of inadequacy on
Valentina Valentia Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2011.08.04 00:03:00 - [14] Originally by: Sweet Jane Liche OP cannot afford a monocle and is looking for ANYTHING that he can blame his feelings of inadequacy on I am waiting for Aur fake boob implants with size of deathstars... and then I will use monocles as pasties!!!... LOL ______________ Effete Noir - a wonderful virtual cologne for the discerning Pod-Pilot - 4500 Aur - BUY.
Diomedes Calypso Aetolian Armada	Posted - 2011.08.04 00:06:00 - [15] Edited by: Diomedes Calypso on 04/08/2011 00:06:15 There can always be some state attorney somewhere that would give it a shot and always a chance a jury would buy it if it got there. But I'm pretty sure as laws stand most in the US it would get dismissed before it got to trial, even if it involved a local game company and local residents. It is an evolving area of law and often referenced on this game site here is one particular instance : http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2011/07/zynga-v-williams.html other' http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2011/07/join-me-and-ieee-in-la-.html?cid=6a00d8341c022953ef0153905df460970b#comment-6a00d8341c022953ef0153905df460970b http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2011/07/insurance-for-virtual-goods.html http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2006/07/id_theft_rmt_nc.html many others But this from blizzard raises my eyebrows http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/faster-forward/post/diablo-3-auction-house-to-charge-real-money-for-in-game-goods/2011/08/01/gIQAllZTnI_blog.html (Terra Nova is the type of game site I like.. big picture dynamics of virtual worlds... not like guides and reviews etc.) The tldr point is that the game item to $ direction is not sanctioned by the entertainment company creating the games. We know that game assets including the right to play an additional 3 characters for another month.. like a credit for another game on a pinball machine, are subject to entirely subjective and arbitrary rules by developers that relate to their conception of what creates the most entertaining product. The value of any item is subject to its scarcity and difficulty to aquire, in addition to its game utility. Clearly for purposes of creating evolving entertainment product, things like weapon nerfs, increased drop-rates, creation of better replacements making the orginal practially worthless to use, giving a dozen of the item to every player as a christmas gift etc. are absolutely within the creative venue of a game company. As such, the notion of 'property' law applying will probably not become the standard. I'm not so sure though that a law couldn't be written though that does make the stealing of virtual items a crime but still a black market value is unlikely to be used as an open advertisement of the item to willing buyers would give the game company every right to confiscate the item for breaking rules of play important to maintaining their creative license BUT, their are other sorts of things that might stand up related Even if property theft isn't a criminal offense, harrassment laws could concievably apply. Where the line there is drawn there may be a much more subjective decision by a court or Jury. There is no question that an adult making sexual advances to minor in a game could be prosecuted in the locality he sat when making the advances. Cyber-bullying laws are making types of stalking and or directed harrasment based on religion etc against local laws. Stealing the items could concieveably be seen as bullying but, it would be a pretty strong defense to say blowing up ships and taking peoples stuff was part of the game and the prosecutor would need to prove that the motive was to focus grief based on some protected area.
Postrem Inkunen	Posted - 2011.08.04 00:08:00 - [16] Originally by: Olleybear Explosion Local Chatter: Pirate: Haha! We violence your boat! Kid: !&%^$@#&^#&^#&@ and (&#(&#(* not to mention your moms (&$(&$#(%&$#(&% Pirate: BAHAHAHAHA!!! Kid 5 minutes later: Hello? 911? Someone just blew up my boat! 911 Operator: Terror! Fire and Brimestone! We shall bring in the FBI, NSA, DHS! Kid: Yay! 1 month later on the local news seeing 23 year old dragged away in chains: Reporter: Is it true Mr Pirate that you said, and I quote, "We violence your boat", after blowing up kids boats in a video game, after he used his moms crdit card without here knowledge, and utterly destroyed this young genius's business opportunity to "Bring home the bacon" for his family as it were? Pirate: WTF? Its a game! I blew up internet space pixels you (&$(&#!!! Cop: We now have a confession on tape. Lock him up! Kid: Yay! 1 month later in Eve local: Crickets.... Lots of crickets.... Crickets multiplying like crazy... Eve server crashes as everyone at CCP in jail for making international terrorism on various countries child populations. Lawyers: Bahahaha!!! This post amuses me regardless of its validity.
Diomedes Calypso Aetolian Armada	Posted - 2011.08.04 00:12:00 - [17] Edited by: Diomedes Calypso on 04/08/2011 00:12:17 a tldr comment: the "black market" value of a good which can be confiscated and destroyed at will by the entertainment company that created is only that.... the illegal value (illegal due to copyright infringement probably btw..not property laws) The value of the property on any open market transaction advertised to potential buyers is zero if it will be destroyed for making that very transaction.
Cors It's A Trap It's A Trap Alliance	Posted - 2011.08.04 02:28:00 - [18] CCP owns everything in game. So folks can't "Steal" from you in the eyes of the law. You have to have ownership for someone to steal from you. You never own anything in EVE, so people can't steal from you. --- microtransaction Noun (economics) A transaction for a very small amount of money. -- I will NOT buy items for real life cash. I pay for 5 accounts. Thats enough.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.08.04 02:33:00 - [19] order post out of can make I to said monocle did +1 you 10/2 . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
Diomedes Calypso Aetolian Armada	Posted - 2011.08.04 02:47:00 - [20] Originally by: Cors CCP owns everything in game. So folks can't "Steal" from you in the eyes of the law. You have to have ownership for someone to steal from you. You never own anything in EVE, so people can't steal from you. I agree with the word "steal" . I'm pretty sure though that the "virtual property" could be considered Valuable even if it were not considered real property under the law. If there were an illegal real world act, such as hacking into a private account (and there are laws that recognize that i'm pretty certain) AND while illegally acessing your private account they deleted all your stuff, you could probably sue via a tort action for harm done to you. I would think though, that they wouldn't recognize the illegal black market value BUT you could make a case for some portion of the time you spent aquiring the virtual goods or the time it might take to regain them. Property in one sense, no, but a tort can recognize all sorts of values.. like right to consortium with your character Conjugal Rights refer to the mutual rights and privileges between two individuals arising from the state of being married. These rights include mutual rights of companionship, support, sexual relations, affection, joint property rights and the like. Loss of conjugal rights will also amount to loss of consortium. Loss of consortium can refer to decreased or limited sexual activity, diminished care, companionship and / or affection between spouses as the result of a personal injury. Damages can be claimed for loss of consortium. The act of a husband or wife staying separately from the other without any lawful cause is refereed to as


GM Homonoia	Posted - 2011.08.04 04:28:00 - [21] DISCLAMER: The following is my personal opinion and does not necessarily constitute the official position of CCP. Until a court of law decides otherwise, the principle of the "magic circle" applies. Is it allowed to hit someone in the face and break his nose? No, this is forbidden by law. However, in the magic circle of a boxing match this is allowed; those are part of the rules of the game and everyone stepping into the ring should have familiarized themselves with those rules.

Simetraz	Posted - 2011.08.04 04:37:00 - [22] Edited by: Simetraz on 04/08/2011 04:37:50 LOL as long as you can't legally convert in game money or items to RL cash, you don't have any RL legal recourse for any action allowed per game rules. And all items created by the game are the property of CCP. The only thing you have is a rental agreement for game time and that is it. And even that is has several conditions under it.
Tron Flux Caldari Midnite Madness	Posted - 2011.08.04 04:44:00 - [23] The OP's scenario seems pretty farfetched, but I gues a lot of lawsuits seem pretty farfetched. I'd say that the intervening Plex between the spending of RL money and the conversion to Aur probably prevents this from becoming an issue. You didn't buy an item directly from CCP. You bought a gtc with your money, or more likely bought plex with isk. What happens after that in the transaction probably mitigates even a really bizarre legal stance. The immediate question might be, "what about stealing people's plex?" could that be construed as a real life crime. Again, I doubt it. CCP never sold you a plex. You bought a game time code. After that it was your choice to convert it into a transactable item. It gets back to the GMs post above. CCP sells you something totally protected: gtc, after that it's your choice to bring those protected gtc into the magic boxing ring. Just a guess though. You all know I'm not an attorney.
Valentina Valentia Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2011.08.04 04:51:00 - [24] sounds like some intelligent answers came in at the end - hope that works then, my though was some countries may have in place laws that protect "virtual renters" for lack of a better term from being pirated by other person if RM was involved in the transaction of the item above the already stated subscription - because it would be a seperate transaction outside of game time renting... a buff if you would to that cost and for a specific item that was only accessable to that person - constituting "private" property, just as no one else can use your apartment even if it is not yours by ownership and if someone else uses it in some manner they are subject to legal actions. since the NeX is RM - Aur - to item for a particular account, it may fall into the area of someone illegally using your account if they use that said item w/o permission... not sure how that would work in RW courts but it does seem to have some merit in a complaint should someone make it - or a group of people say with a substantial investment of several hundred or thousand dollars, that could be of interest to someone to pursue. Gosh law is interesting... ______________ Effete Noir - a wonderful virtual cologne for the discerning Pod-Pilot - 4500 Aur - BUY.
The Offerer Minmatar	Posted - 2011.08.04 05:37:00 - [25] Originally by: GM Homonoia DISCLAMER: The following is my personal opinion and does not necessarily constitute the official position of CCP. Until a court of law decides otherwise, the principle of the "magic circle" applies. Is it allowed to hit someone in the face and break his nose? No, this is forbidden by law. However, in the magic circle of a boxing match this is allowed; those are part of the rules of the game and everyone stepping into the ring should have familiarized themselves with those rules. That, or you could quote the EULA : http://www.eveonline.com/pnp/eula.asp Quote: B. Rights to Certain Content You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved.
Tron Flux Caldari Midnite Madness	Posted - 2011.08.04 05:56:00 - [26] Originally by: Valentina Valentia since the NeX is RM - Aur - to item for a particular account, it may fall into the area of someone illegally using your account if they use that said item w/o permission... not sure how that would work in RW courts but it does seem to have some merit in a complaint should someone make it - or a group of people say with a substantial investment of several hundred or thousand dollars, that could be of interest to someone to pursue. Gosh law is interesting... If a court in the U.S. is willing to buy the argument that rm=aur=item, you can kiss the game goodbye in this country. The court would have to accept the argument that time=isk=item; therefore it's a crime to blow up your ship. Like I said, we've all seen or read about some very bizarre torts. But in this case, I can't think of a court nutty enough to go for that line of reasoning. Even if a court were so inclined, every maker of every video game in the world would put money behind the opposition of this precedent. It's a non-starter. In any case it's irrelevant because the formula you put forth is invalid. Rm=aur=item isn't necessarily true. It may be that rm can be converted to plex converted to aur converted to item, but these are not true equalities. They are 1-way transactions dependent on a conscious act of the gamer who is aware of the potential consequences and losses and the explicit lack of warranty against those losses. If you take a hundred dollar bill and burn it down to ashes, you can't expect anyone to value the ashes at 100 dollars. It's monetary value has been consumed. You can keep the ashes if you can think of something useful to do with them, but you can't go to the bank and say, "hey. This used to be a hundred bucks. Give me a hundred bucks for these ashes." That's essentially what happens when you convert real money to plex. The money is consumed and the resulting ashes are only worth anything in the context of, say, a game that revolves around stealing your ashes. If someone steals your ashes, it's going to be a very short day in court if you're going to try and prove that the thief stole 100 dollars from you, especially if you agreed to a game of stealing ashes from each other . . . which you did when you signed up to play eve.
Tron Flux Caldari Midnite Madness	Posted - 2011.08.04 06:03:00 - [27] Originally by: The Offerer Originally by: GM Homonoia DISCLAMER: The following is my personal opinion and does not necessarily constitute the official position of CCP. Until a court of law decides otherwise, the principle of the "magic circle" applies. Is it allowed to hit someone in the face and break his nose? No, this is forbidden by law. However, in the magic circle of a boxing match this is allowed; those are part of the rules of the game and everyone stepping into the ring should have familiarized themselves with those rules. That, or you could quote the EULA : http://www.eveonline.com/pnp/eula.asp Quote: B. Rights to Certain Content You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved. How often do you see eula's challenged in court? Almost never. They are notoriously difficult to enforce. Most software makers don't ever want them to see the light of a courtroom because vast portions of "standard" text would be invalidated in a serious challenge. Just saying that something is your property and saying that you don't have certain rights is a meaningless scare tactic. One that almost every company on the planet uses to generally good effect.
mkint	Posted - 2011.08.04 08:11:00 - [28] 100 AUR = $0.43. That's is a fixed number, not affected by the game economy. The exchange rate of $ -> AUR is set by CCP. It is a real world currency (the fact that they refuse to exchange the other direction shows exactly how worthless this scam currency really is.) CCP is breaking the law buy not registering as a bank. Anyone who scams for AUR items (boots are worth exactly $4.29) is scamming for a real world currency. CCP not enforcing real world anti-scam laws with AUR items is obstruction.
Diomedes Calypso Aetolian Armada	Posted - 2011.08.04 08:18:00 - [29] Originally by: mkint 100 AUR = $0.43. That's is a fixed number, not affected by the game economy. The exchange rate of $ -> AUR is set by CCP. It is a real world currency (the fact that they refuse to exchange the other direction shows exactly how worthless this scam currency really is.) CCP is breaking the law buy not registering as a bank. Anyone who scams for AUR items (boots are worth exactly $4.29) is scamming for a real world currency. CCP not enforcing real world anti-scam laws with AUR items is obstruction. Is an itunes gift certificate real money? nope.. just a right to buy limited licenses to listen to music files on a certain devices of Apples discretion ..
malaire	Posted - 2011.08.04 08:38:00 - [30] Originally by: mkint 100 AUR = $0.43. That's is a fixed number, not affected by the game economy. The exchange rate of $ -> AUR is set by CCP. It is a real world currency (the fact that they refuse to exchange the other direction shows exactly how worthless this scam currency really is.) CCP is breaking the law buy not registering as a bank. Anyone who scams for AUR items (boots are worth exactly $4.29) is scamming for a real world currency. CCP not enforcing real world anti-scam laws with AUR items is obstruction. This would only be true if it would be possible to sell ISK/AUR for real cash. In that case CCP would need to be registered as bank and all kinds of problems would arrise. (If I've understood correctly)

Abrazzar	Posted - 2011.08.04 09:55:00 - [31] There is no reverse convertibility supported by CCP for Aurum and its items. There is no transfer of ownership of said items, too. Effectively, it is a service agreement to rent a certain exclusive toy to play with in the playground. One you cannot take home or get refunded should you happen to lose it while playing (unless foul play was at hand). So, no, destroying/stealing/scamming NeX related items cannot be legal theft, even when game rules were broken to accomplish it. --------
KaarBaak Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe	Posted - 2011.08.04 10:13:00 - [32] As explained, the one-way exchange is how CCP protects itself from such action. It's also why they are so diligent pursuing RMT type exchanges on eBay and the like. If they become aware of such transactions and decline to take action, it could be seen as consent for RMT of virtual goods and land them in exactly the kind of hot water described. Same reason why they, and most other companies are so diligent about protecting IP. It's why you see cases of companies like Disney shutting down little kids' lemonade stands that use Mickey Mouse on their posters. Circumstances rule men; men do not rule circumstances. --Herodotus, Histories
Phelan Votronski	Posted - 2011.08.04 10:27:00 - [33] Originally by: KaarBaak It's why you see cases of companies like Disney shutting down little kids' lemonade stands that use Mickey Mouse on their posters. Uhhm no... That's because lawyers are ****s.
Agent 42 Gallente RADIO RAMPAGE	Posted - 2011.08.04 10:47:00 - [34] OP made me realize exactly why it's so distasteful for an MMO to have MT. At first I thought it was the fact that content should be free if we pay a monthly fee for added content. However, if the content is truly derived from a third party as CCP claims than I can see it semi justified as CCP isn't diverting in-house resources for **** we don't want. In this scenario assuming it's accurate NEX is a way to expand the game rather than dilute the game. The fact that a company collecting millions each year from subs then asking their loyal player base to shell out more for digital trash isn't the most insulting aspect of this. What really grinds my nerves are the stupidly high cost and the fact that itmes in MMO's are temporary. EVE requires CCP to keep the servers active. If someone buys horse armor for Oblivion, while it may be a completely shallow waste of money, but at least you own the horse armor. In an MMO you don't own the MT items, you own the right to use the item for as long as CCP decides to keep the servers running. LOL people who bought a monocle paid 70$ to rent a digital accessory. But hey maybe monocle owners will get an early beta to the Vampire MMO seeing as how EVE is reaching EOL.
Alissa Solette	Posted - 2011.08.04 11:45:00 - [35] Edited by: Alissa Solette on 04/08/2011 11:45:43 Originally by: Monstress Nothing has changed. NeX items are available on the ISK market so people who really want them and don't have the ISK will buy a PLEX and spend it but the smarter people will spend ISK. It makes no difference if you personally paid RL money or ISK. The fact of the matter is that the item has a real life price tag attached to it. Think of it like this: Scenario 1: We go into a store together and you buy a T-shirt. As soon as we're outside of the store I steal your T-shirt and run away. That is a crime. Scenario 2: We go into a store together and you notice that you've not got enough money to buy the T-shirt. I buy the T-shirt for you and "trade" it to you against a date with your attractive sister. A day later I come along and steal your T-shirt. That's still a crime. It's irrelevant who spent the money on the product initially and how many times it was traded and for what. The product still has an "owner" and stealing it from that owner is forbidden, no matter what kind of currency or barter system was used to previously transfer ownership.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2011.08.04 12:07:00 - [36] Originally by: Alissa Solette Edited by: Alissa Solette on 04/08/2011 11:45:43 Originally by: Monstress Nothing has changed. NeX items are available on the ISK market so people who really want them and don't have the ISK will buy a PLEX and spend it but the smarter people will spend ISK. It makes no difference if you personally paid RL money or ISK. The fact of the matter is that the item has a real life price tag attached to it. Think of it like this: Scenario 1: We go into a store together and you buy a T-shirt. As soon as we're outside of the store I steal your T-shirt and run away. That is a crime. Scenario 2: We go into a store together and you notice that you've not got enough money to buy the T-shirt. I buy the T-shirt for you and "trade" it to you against a date with your attractive sister. A day later I come along and steal your T-shirt. That's still a crime. It's irrelevant who spent the money on the product initially and how many times it was traded and for what. The product still has an "owner" and stealing it from that owner is forbidden, no matter what kind of currency or barter system was used to previously transfer ownership. You don't buy a t-shirt. You don't buy anything. It's a service agreement, not a purchase. You are renting virtual assets for playing in the game and in the game only. Taking it outside is neither possible nor allowed. Taking RL money for renting it to another player is a violation of the service agreement and will get you thrown out of the playground with no refunds. Theft requires ownership. You don't own NeX items No theft is legally possible. (at least not from the side of CCP and within the boundaries of the game environment) It is always the same flawed reasoning coming up in threads like this, just to keep a inane discussion going.... --------
Tippia Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.08.04 12:38:00 - [37] Originally by: Tron Flux How often do you see eula's challenged in court? Almost never. They are notoriously difficult to enforce. àbut at the same time, a EULA is not much different than the rules of a sports event: it prescribes rules that everyone engaging in that activity agree on, so anything that doesn't break the EULA will be pretty hard to go after. Originally by: Alissa Solette It makes no difference if you personally paid RL money or ISK. The fact of the matter is that the item has a real life price tag attached to it. But that's just it: the NeX items do not have a real-life price tag in the proper sense. They have an AUR tag or, should someone want to make a loss, an ISK tag. What has a real-life price tag is the GTC/PLEX, and once you have that, the real-life connection ends. You have gotten exactly what you pay for and the obligation is fulfilled. What you choose to do with that is up to you, and blowing it up (by choice or because you gambled and lost) is a completely valid option that does not change the fact that you already got what you paid for. It is now an in-game item subject to those in-game rules you have accepted to follow ù losing stuff is not a loss of RL money because you have already gotten your money's worth. The transaction is completed in full. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.08.04 13:16:00 - [38] Originally by: Tron Flux It gets back to the GMs post above. CCP sells you something totally protected: gtc, after that it's your choice to bring those protected gtc into the magic boxing ring. Why is it called a "magic circle" and a "boxing ring" when it's square? There is no monocle.
Not-Apsalar	Posted - 2011.08.04 13:18:00 - [39] Originally by: mkint 100 AUR = $0.43. That's is a fixed number, not affected by the game economy. The exchange rate of $ -> AUR is set by CCP. It is a real world currency (the fact that they refuse to exchange the other direction shows exactly how worthless this scam currency really is.) CCP is breaking the law buy not registering as a bank. Anyone who scams for AUR items (boots are worth exactly $4.29) is scamming for a real world currency. CCP not enforcing real world anti-scam laws with AUR items is obstruction. 1 Big Mac = $3.57. That is a fixed number, not affected by the game economy. Doesn't make it a currency, though.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.04 13:50:00 - [40] Originally by: GM Homonoia DISCLAMER: The following is my personal opinion and does not necessarily constitute the official position of CCP. Until a court of law decides otherwise, the principle of the "magic circle" applies. Is it allowed to hit someone in the face and break his nose? No, this is forbidden by law. However, in the magic circle of a boxing match this is allowed; those are part of the rules of the game and everyone stepping into the ring should have familiarized themselves with those rules. Nail meet head, +1

Goldman Suchs	Posted - 2011.08.04 13:52:00 - [41] Quote: Why is it called a "magic circle" and a "boxing ring" when it's square? Why do cars have shampoo when they don't have any hair?
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.04 13:54:00 - [42] Originally by: Ingvar Angst Originally by: Tron Flux It gets back to the GMs post above. CCP sells you something totally protected: gtc, after that it's your choice to bring those protected gtc into the magic boxing ring. Why is it called a "magic circle" and a "boxing ring" when it's square? It's an atavism.
Sandrestal	Posted - 2011.08.04 14:06:00 - [43] There is one tenuous aspect here that trouble me. All that is said about CCP owning everything may be true and if there was no sanctioned connection between rl money and isk, all would be good. The problem we have are plex cards. Plex establishes a link between isk and cash and is sanctioned by CCP. So you can use rl money to buy isk and just the opposite is true also....that you can use isk as rl money to pay for your acct. I suspect a smart lawyer could use this idea as the foundation for a clever lawsuit. If plex buyer has no isk and sells a card for 600 million isk and then buys and loses a spaceship, there stands the possibility of bringing suit for not the loss of the tangible object i.e spaceship, but for the pain and suffering endured. The lost ship was purchased using rl money and not from the effort of working in game to earn the isk. While the "magic circle" may cover most cases, if a boxer used something like brass knuckles hidden inside his gloves or it was found out that someone paid the ref to not step in quick enough to end a fight and a boxer died...then a crime was committed. If you rent a apartment, the building may belong to the landlord but the possessions you buy and move into the apartment are yours. So CCP has to be very careful as to how they manage the rl money and game connections or someone really well off may decide to test CCP on who really owns what in the game. As a aside, has there ever been a case where game items ownership was challenged in a court of law?
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.04 14:13:00 - [44] Edited by: Mendolus on 04/08/2011 14:14:29 Originally by: Sandrestal There is one tenuous aspect here that trouble me. All that is said about CCP owning everything may be true and if there was no sanctioned connection between rl money and isk, all would be good. The problem we have are plex cards. Plex establishes a link between isk and cash and is sanctioned by CCP. So you can use rl money to buy isk and just the opposite is true also....that you can use isk as rl money to pay for your acct. I suspect a smart lawyer could use this idea as the foundation for a clever lawsuit. If plex buyer has no isk and sells a card for 600 million isk and then buys and loses a spaceship, there stands the possibility of bringing suit for not the loss of the tangible object i.e spaceship, but for the pain and suffering endured. The lost ship was purchased using rl money and not from the effort of working in game to earn the isk. While the "magic circle" may cover most cases, if a boxer used something like brass knuckles hidden inside his gloves or it was found out that someone paid the ref to not step in quick enough to end a fight and a boxer died...then a crime was committed. If you rent a apartment, the building may belong to the landlord but the possessions you buy and move into the apartment are yours. So CCP has to be very careful as to how they manage the rl money and game connections or someone really well off may decide to test CCP on who really owns what in the game. As a aside, has there ever been a case where game items ownership was challenged in a court of law? Not trying to be facetious or bother you honestly, but you seem to be missing that many new games these days have all manner of DLC or various perks that can be purchased to enhance one's gaming experience. Of special note are the numerous P2P games that have content and equipment that you literally have to purchase with real life transactions in order to gain access to or acquire.
Tippia Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.08.04 14:23:00 - [45] Originally by: Sandrestal If plex buyer has no isk and sells a card for 600 million isk and then buys and loses a spaceship, there stands the possibility of bringing suit for not the loss of the tangible object i.e spaceship, but for the pain and suffering endured. The lost ship was purchased using rl money and not from the effort of working in game to earn the isk. But again: the ship wasn't bought using RL money. What RL money bought you was a GTC/PLEX, and once you got your hands on that, the connection to real life was cut. The transaction is complete, and you have what you wanted. From that point onwards, all you have is an in-game object that works like all in-game objects. Losing those items are not different in any way to losing any other kind of in-game object, regardless of how you came into possession of them. If you sell that PLEX for ISK, you now have nothing that ties you back to RL, not even the tenuous one the PLEX represents. The problem with the PLEX-ISK link is that it doesn't actually link back to real money ù it's a one way street. It is 100% your choice if you don't want the one real-life service the PLEX provides. It is 100% your choice if you want to gamble it in-game. If you give it away for something else, then there is no longer even a shred of a real-life connection left. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.08.04 15:02:00 - [46] I think that if you live in a country with hordes of venal lawyers who indulge in this nonsense CCP ought to just block the IP addresses based on country (and yes its utterly trivial to do). Problem solved.
Sandrestal	Posted - 2011.08.04 15:09:00 - [47] Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 04/08/2011 14:14:29 Originally by: Sandrestal There is one tenuous aspect here that trouble me. All that is said about CCP owning everything may be true and if there was no sanctioned connection between rl money and isk, all would be good. The problem we have are plex cards. Plex establishes a link between isk and cash and is sanctioned by CCP. So you can use rl money to buy isk and just the opposite is true also....that you can use isk as rl money to pay for your acct. I suspect a smart lawyer could use this idea as the foundation for a clever lawsuit. If plex buyer has no isk and sells a card for 600 million isk and then buys and loses a spaceship, there stands the possibility of bringing suit for not the loss of the tangible object i.e spaceship, but for the pain and suffering endured. The lost ship was purchased using rl money and not from the effort of working in game to earn the isk. While the "magic circle" may cover most cases, if a boxer used something like brass knuckles hidden inside his gloves or it was found out that someone paid the ref to not step in quick enough to end a fight and a boxer died...then a crime was committed. If you rent a apartment, the building may belong to the landlord but the possessions you buy and move into the apartment are yours. So CCP has to be very careful as to how they manage the rl money and game connections or someone really well off may decide to test CCP on who really owns what in the game. As a aside, has there ever been a case where game items ownership was challenged in a court of law? Not trying to be facetious or bother you honestly, but you seem to be missing that many new games these days have all manner of DLC or various perks that can be purchased to enhance one's gaming experience. Of special note are the numerous P2P games that have content and equipment that you literally have to purchase with real life transactions in order to gain access to or acquire. Gaining access is something that can't be destroyed. Since I don't play other mmo's, do the others items get destroyed if you get killed or do they respawn with the character?
Sandrestal	Posted - 2011.08.04 15:16:00 - [48] Originally by: Tippia But again: the ship wasn't bought using RL money. What RL money bought you was a GTC/PLEX, and once you got your hands on that, the connection to real life was cut. The transaction is complete, and you have what you wanted. Not neccessarily. If you buy in r/l a item that was stolen by somebody else, the item is not yours to keep if the real owner finds out the item is in your possession. As long as there is a connection of r/l money to isk, the link is not broken and a good lawyer may find some law on the books that upholds that. Stretching it a bit perhaps, but such cases crop up in r/l so don't discount the possibility it might happen.
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises	Posted - 2011.08.04 15:18:00 - [49] No. In game theft is not RL theft because there is not a sanctioned way to convert anything in game to RL currency. There is an exception to this rule, this case, as far as I am aware. Basically, it requires an excessive amount of meta gaming to be considered a RL crime. This signature is useless, but it is red.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.04 15:26:00 - [50] Originally by: Sandrestal Originally by: Tippia But again: the ship wasn't bought using RL money. What RL money bought you was a GTC/PLEX, and once you got your hands on that, the connection to real life was cut. The transaction is complete, and you have what you wanted. Not neccessarily. If you buy in r/l a item that was stolen by somebody else, the item is not yours to keep if the real owner finds out the item is in your possession. As long as there is a connection of r/l money to isk, the link is not broken and a good lawyer may find some law on the books that upholds that. Stretching it a bit perhaps, but such cases crop up in r/l so don't discount the possibility it might happen. Sorry friend, this is a slippery slope that few dare tread, as most people have at least enough common sense to realize where things like this lead. Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

Slade Trillgon Endless Possibilities Inc.	Posted - 2011.08.04 15:29:00 - [51] My view is in line with a few previous posters. CCP owns all the content. Even if you buy some surperfluous or game effecting item with real money you are unable to then reconvert said item back into real cash. The claim of theft would only, and I mean only, be able to stand up in a pre-trial if, and only if, said item could then be 'legally' sold for real life cash. Even then it is unlikely as the EULA states clearly that CCP retain rights to all pixils displayed when the client is activated. Slade :Signature Temporarily Disabled:
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises	Posted - 2011.08.04 15:40:00 - [52] Originally by: Slade Trillgon My view is in line with a few previous posters. CCP owns all the content. Even if you buy some surperfluous or game effecting item with real money you are unable to then reconvert said item back into real cash. The claim of theft would only, and I mean only, be able to stand up in a pre-trial if, and only if, said item could then be 'legally' sold for real life cash. Even then it is unlikely as the EULA states clearly that CCP retain rights to all pixils displayed when the client is activated. Slade Or, as in the case I linked, be something a person can reasonably assume to be their own, because no other person is able to take it from them using game mechanics. Absolutely nothing in Eve fits this bill. The NeX goods definitely slide closer down that slippery slope though. I'm curious to see how the first "clothing lost due to weird lag situation while being worn" followed by "the logs don't show anything" situation turns out. This signature is useless, but it is red.
John Caesse Caldari Navy of Xoc The Remnant Legion	Posted - 2011.08.04 15:55:00 - [53] No, you're totally right. The little bit of knowledge you picked up from reading the transcript of a speech given by a lawyer makes you an expert on the subject and vastly more experience and informed than the legal teams of CCP and countless other game developers. Or you're a moron. Its one of the two, I'm going with the latter.
Tippia Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.08.04 16:02:00 - [54] Originally by: Sandrestal As long as there is a connection of r/l money to isk But that's just it: there isn't. You can't buy ISK for money. Well, unless you break the EULA and go to an RMTer, which establishes a trade that could probably be challenged if you don't get the goods you've paid for (but then again, why bother ù you'll both just get banned). The fact remains: as soon as you get that PLEX, you have gotten exactly what you paid for, and everything beyond that is just you acting within the rules of the game. The game rules let you be as careless as you like with that stuff, up to and including trashing it, blowing it up, letting others blow it up, giving it away (willingly or otherwise), trading it, etc etc etc. It is no different than playing Monopoly and landing on a square where someone put up a hotel ù you lost a crapton of in-game money. You can't really sue them for that, even if you did buy both the Monopoly game itself and the cakes you've all been eating during the game session. Cases have popped up IRL when none of that was allowed ù here, it is, and you and everyone else involved agreed that it is. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP
Sandrestal	Posted - 2011.08.04 16:16:00 - [55] Originally by: Slade Trillgon My view is in line with a few previous posters. CCP owns all the content. Even if you buy some surperfluous or game effecting item with real money you are unable to then reconvert said item back into real cash. The claim of theft would only, and I mean only, be able to stand up in a pre-trial if, and only if, said item could then be 'legally' sold for real life cash. Even then it is unlikely as the EULA states clearly that CCP retain rights to all pixils displayed when the client is activated. Slade Yet, other than the EULA, buying and selling isk for r/l money occurs all the time and is not illegal.
Ranger 1 Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2011.08.04 16:35:00 - [56] Originally by: Sandrestal Originally by: Slade Trillgon My view is in line with a few previous posters. CCP owns all the content. Even if you buy some surperfluous or game effecting item with real money you are unable to then reconvert said item back into real cash. The claim of theft would only, and I mean only, be able to stand up in a pre-trial if, and only if, said item could then be 'legally' sold for real life cash. Even then it is unlikely as the EULA states clearly that CCP retain rights to all pixils displayed when the client is activated. Slade Yet, other than the EULA, buying and selling isk for r/l money occurs all the time and is not illegal. Actually the people selling that ISK do not own it, nor do they have a legal right to sell it. They are selling something that belongs to CCP. Questions of legality vary all the time from country to country, but as a general rule it is illegal to sell things that you do not own. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Sandrestal	Posted - 2011.08.04 16:43:00 - [57] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Sandrestal Originally by: Slade Trillgon My view is in line with a few previous posters. CCP owns all the content. Even if you buy some surperfluous or game effecting item with real money you are unable to then reconvert said item back into real cash. The claim of theft would only, and I mean only, be able to stand up in a pre-trial if, and only if, said item could then be 'legally' sold for real life cash. Even then it is unlikely as the EULA states clearly that CCP retain rights to all pixils displayed when the client is activated. Slade Yet, other than the EULA, buying and selling isk for r/l money occurs all the time and is not illegal. Actually the people selling that ISK do not own it, nor do they have a legal right to sell it. They are selling something that belongs to CCP. Questions of legality vary all the time from country to country, but as a general rule it is illegal to sell things that you do not own. Other than bans, has any isk seller been prosecuted? Been sued by CCP? By doing nothing of real consequence, CCP is saying it is OK to sell isk.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.04 16:56:00 - [58] Edited by: Mendolus on 04/08/2011 16:57:59 Originally by: Sandrestal Other than bans, has any isk seller been prosecuted? Been sued by CCP? By doing nothing of real consequence, CCP is saying it is OK to sell isk. What, you mean entering into diplomatic talks with countries such as China to extradite their nationals to Iceland for prosecution? Good luck with that. This is the real world, not the world of sugar plum fairies. International crime is just as hard to prosecute in real life, let alone crime concerning virtual goods, and even more remotely so with profiteering on closed circuit intellectual property in online entertainment venues. Most industrialized countries in the world are not even equipped to handle their own internal crime to begin with. This discussion is an exercise in frivolity at best, as others have so kindly explained without explicitly saying it. Edit: CCP bans the offenders as best as possible, just like the majority of online game developers have for a decade or so now. Beyond that, good luck buddy, good luck.
Ranger 1 Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2011.08.04 17:03:00 - [59] Originally by: Sandrestal Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Sandrestal Originally by: Slade Trillgon My view is in line with a few previous posters. CCP owns all the content. Even if you buy some surperfluous or game effecting item with real money you are unable to then reconvert said item back into real cash. The claim of theft would only, and I mean only, be able to stand up in a pre-trial if, and only if, said item could then be 'legally' sold for real life cash. Even then it is unlikely as the EULA states clearly that CCP retain rights to all pixils displayed when the client is activated. Slade Yet, other than the EULA, buying and selling isk for r/l money occurs all the time and is not illegal. Actually the people selling that ISK do not own it, nor do they have a legal right to sell it. They are selling something that belongs to CCP. Questions of legality vary all the time from country to country, but as a general rule it is illegal to sell things that you do not own. Other than bans, has any isk seller been prosecuted? Been sued by CCP? By doing nothing of real consequence, CCP is saying it is OK to sell isk. If somebody steals from me and I decide for whatever reason not to press charges, that does not mean that theft is no longer a crime. Other than that, refer to the post above this one. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.04 17:06:00 - [60] Edited by: Mendolus on 04/08/2011 17:06:38 Originally by: Ranger 1 If somebody steals from me and I decide for whatever reason not to press charges, that does not mean that theft is no longer a crime. Other than that, refer to the post above this one. Exactly, ISK sellers are committing crimes sure, but the laws to prosecute them either do not exist, or are impossible to enforce across international borders. @Sandrestal, all you have to do is look at landmark cases in just the past few years to know this.

Sandrestal	Posted - 2011.08.04 17:18:00 - [61] Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 04/08/2011 17:06:38 Originally by: Ranger 1 If somebody steals from me and I decide for whatever reason not to press charges, that does not mean that theft is no longer a crime. Other than that, refer to the post above this one. Exactly, ISK sellers are committing crimes sure, but the laws to prosecute them either do not exist, or are impossible to enforce across international borders. @Sandrestal, all you have to do is look at landmark cases in just the past few years to know this. If you care to link some rl case where a seller of ingame currancy for rl money was prosecuted I'd certainly read it with interest. Just what crime are isk sellers committing? Not trying to be obtuse or dense.
Ranger 1 Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2011.08.04 17:20:00 - [62] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 04/08/2011 17:22:14 Originally by: Sandrestal Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 04/08/2011 17:06:38 Originally by: Ranger 1 If somebody steals from me and I decide for whatever reason not to press charges, that does not mean that theft is no longer a crime. Other than that, refer to the post above this one. Exactly, ISK sellers are committing crimes sure, but the laws to prosecute them either do not exist, or are impossible to enforce across international borders. @Sandrestal, all you have to do is look at landmark cases in just the past few years to know this. If you care to link some rl case where a seller of ingame currancy for rl money was prosecuted I'd certainly read it with interest. Just what crime are isk sellers committing? Not trying to be obtuse or dense. As has been pointed out, it is impractical and certainly not cost effective to prosecute. Answer me this, in what country is it legal to sell something for your personal profit that is not in fact your property. Particularly when the people that own that item expressly forbid reselling of that item in any way. ===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.04 17:30:00 - [63] Originally by: Sandrestal Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 04/08/2011 17:06:38 Originally by: Ranger 1 If somebody steals from me and I decide for whatever reason not to press charges, that does not mean that theft is no longer a crime. Other than that, refer to the post above this one. Exactly, ISK sellers are committing crimes sure, but the laws to prosecute them either do not exist, or are impossible to enforce across international borders. @Sandrestal, all you have to do is look at landmark cases in just the past few years to know this. If you care to link some rl case where a seller of ingame currancy for rl money was prosecuted I'd certainly read it with interest. Just what crime are isk sellers committing? Not trying to be obtuse or dense. Not sure I understand your confusion, do you not understand intellectual property rights and how they are or are not able to be applied internationally? Not all countries even have intellectual property rights in their legal verbatim yet, let alone active cases working their way through the system. I am not getting paid to look up legal documents and records for an anonymous poster on the internet. Please do your own research.
Alice Katsuko Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2011.08.04 17:48:00 - [64] Could argue it either way, but prolly most courts at the moment would dismiss any attempts to claim that virtual goods sold for an in-game currency, derived from a game time code which cannot be converted into cash [and thereby no longer has cash value], are the equivalent to real goods. Furthermore, I'm fairly sure that in the EULA there is a provision which makes CCP the owner of all EVE accounts, and all items stored on those accounts, and if that's the case a player wouldn't have standing to sue since the pirate/ganker/scammer stole from CCP and not the player. Besides which, as the good GM pointed out, we as a society condone behavior in certain restricted settings that would otherwise constitute a criminal act. *This post does not constitute legal advice.
John Caesse Caldari Navy of Xoc The Remnant Legion	Posted - 2011.08.04 18:07:00 - [65] Originally by: Sandrestal Just what crime are isk sellers committing? Not trying to be obtuse or dense. They are selling something they do not own or have the right to sell. Depending on where you are in the world that can be referred to in several different ways. In the US, depending on how you want to go about proving it, you could go with a theft or fencing charge (larceny, sale under false pretenses, various stolen property charges) or if you wanted to go federal you could probably prove some form of fraud, maybe 18 U.S.C. º1341. The problem you run into is laws don't specifically cover the stuff in question, meaning you'd be asking the courts to set a precedent. All in all, by seeking out/banning offenders and enforcing the EULA, CCP demonstrates that they do not condone the activity and are not responsible those who engage in the activity anyways. Holding CCP responsible for those engaging in the illicit sale of ISK would be like holding a government responsible for the actions of its citizens (excluding those acting in agency, of course).
Abrazzar	Posted - 2011.08.04 18:12:00 - [66] Originally by: John Caesse Originally by: Sandrestal Just what crime are isk sellers committing? Not trying to be obtuse or dense. They are selling something they do not own or have the right to sell. Depending on where you are in the world that can be referred to in several different ways. In the US, depending on how you want to go about proving it, you could go with a theft or fencing charge (larceny, sale under false pretenses, various stolen property charges) or if you wanted to go federal you could probably prove some form of fraud, maybe 18 U.S.C. º1341. The problem you run into is laws don't specifically cover the stuff in question, meaning you'd be asking the courts to set a precedent. All in all, by seeking out/banning offenders and enforcing the EULA, CCP demonstrates that they do not condone the activity and are not responsible those who engage in the activity anyways. Holding CCP responsible for those engaging in the illicit sale of ISK would be like holding a government responsible for the actions of its citizens (excluding those acting in agency, of course). RMTers can always claim they are merely providing a service, being paid for the time and effort expended to acquire the game items, and not selling those items directly. If it were obviously illegal, someone somewhere would have already filed a suit or a dozen against RMT companies. --------
Marchocias	Posted - 2011.08.04 18:15:00 - [67] Edited by: Marchocias on 04/08/2011 18:15:27 I think this discussion needs some sense of perspective. Edit: I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died?
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.08.04 18:24:00 - [68] Originally by: Mendolus Not sure I understand your confusion, do you not understand intellectual property rights and how they are or are not able to be applied internationally? Not all countries even have intellectual property rights in their legal verbatim yet, let alone active cases working their way through the system. I am not getting paid to look up legal documents and records for an anonymous poster on the internet. Please do your own research. There is however the question of how the login details have been acquired to enable someone to sell these assets in the first place. Gaining unauthorized access to a computer system is considered a felony in many jurisdictions, and that typically includes using valid login credentials not intended for use by the attacker. Prosecution is on another page however, and often difficult due to the attacker possibly being located in a different country than the victim. In the case of EVE account details, not knowing icelandic law I'd guess it would be CCP that actually had to try for prosecution as they'd be the 'victim', and not the customer himself.
John Caesse Caldari Navy of Xoc The Remnant Legion	Posted - 2011.08.04 19:22:00 - [69] Originally by: Abrazzar RMTers can always claim they are merely providing a service, being paid for the time and effort expended to acquire the game items, and not selling those items directly. If it were obviously illegal, someone somewhere would have already filed a suit or a dozen against RMT companies. That was kind of my point, its not obviously illegal - you would be looking to set a precedent. I actually think it would be detrimental to games and the at-large gaming community to prosecute these kinds of offenses; the types of things that would have to be established in court regarding the status of virtual items and in-game currency would probably cause myriad problems for the industry, while only gaining the right to prosecute a specific set of EULA violators.
Sandrestal	Posted - 2011.08.04 22:55:00 - [70] Originally by: Omara Otawan Originally by: Mendolus Not sure I understand your confusion, do you not understand intellectual property rights and how they are or are not able to be applied internationally? Not all countries even have intellectual property rights in their legal verbatim yet, let alone active cases working their way through the system. I am not getting paid to look up legal documents and records for an anonymous poster on the internet. Please do your own research. There is however the question of how the login details have been acquired to enable someone to sell these assets in the first place. Gaining unauthorized access to a computer system is considered a felony in many jurisdictions, and that typically includes using valid login credentials not intended for use by the attacker. Prosecution is on another page however, and often difficult due to the attacker possibly being located in a different country than the victim. In the case of EVE account details, not knowing icelandic law I'd guess it would be CCP that actually had to try for prosecution as they'd be the 'victim', and not the customer himself. Why would you need login details? I give you real life money and my in game character name. You then transfer isk to my character acct in game. How the transfer is done is up to both parties involved.

Diomedes Calypso Aetolian Armada	Posted - 2011.08.04 23:28:00 - [71] law isn't about what you feel is right. It is about what is on the books and what rulings have been in the past that can in tiny increments be applied to different areas. Well I'm not qualified to write an essay on precedence etc. You can't have a very good conversation with some people talking about law and other's talking about what they think right and wrong is .
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.08.04 23:29:00 - [72] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 04/08/2011 23:29:41 Originally by: Sandrestal Why would you need login details? I give you real life money and my in game character name. You then transfer isk to my character acct in game. How the transfer is done is up to both parties involved. I think you missed the context there, I was talking about the common practice of illegally accessing accounts and selling the assets for RL money. There is currently a rather prominent large-scale incident in south korea. As far as you buying ingame currency farmed by legal (ingame) methods for RL money, that is obviously fine as long as you dont have a problem with buying essentially nothing when the game company takes it away as per their EULA, and possibly terminates your account.


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