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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.17 20:35:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Cearain on 17/08/2011 20:40:22
Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 17/08/2011 20:28:48
Originally by: Barakkus You do realize most MMOs have almost the exact same setup with a player focus group that CCP does with the CSM right? Except usually they don't make it a public thing and it's rather informal, but still covered by an NDA.
Think his rose-tinted glasses are interfering with his ability to realize almost every game developer has closed beta testing or interaction with past, present, or future subscribers in order to get player feedback on game content prior to it being released and certainly with the notion that said content may be altered based on feedback, all which is covered by an NDA that may or may not ever get lifted.
But, I am sure he will argue this is not the case somehow. He seems bent on purporting that the CSM is an impossibly corrupt enterprise that cannot ever have redeeming value unless they use a system he personally finds legitimate and which guarantees corruption is impossible. I would like to have a system like this in real life, so if someone ever comes up with one, please let me know.
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Ryhss
Originally by: Empy Ralt
Since CCP's plans are vague and unlikely to happen anytime soon, and they will put out a blog long before anything actually happens, it's not much of an advantage.
Sounds about right.
Yeah except read Trebor's post that proves there are indeed opportunities for abuse.
You are an exceptionally paranoid individual it seems. There are always to abuse the system, every system, every minute, of every day. Asking for a hundred percent guarantee that this will not happen is... uhm, rather naive. No offense intended, it just is.
There is a difference between *asking* a set of players what they think about this or that idea, and *telling* them what will or won't be included in the next expansion. The difference is one is asking questions the other is giving information.
CCP can *ask* players about all sorts of things. I don't have any issue with that. There is no need for a nda.
And as far as my asking for 100% guarantee you keep ignoring my point.
I am just suggesting that the advantages of giving csm nda type information (which no one has yet offered something csm accomplished thanks to getting nda info) do not outweigh the many negatives I list. E.g., likelyhood that that information will be abused, make the communication between csm and players more opaque etc.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Takita Yukida
Quo Vadis Domine
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Posted - 2011.08.17 20:50:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Cearain There is a difference between *asking* a set of players what they think about this or that idea, and *telling* them what will or won't be included in the next expansion. The difference is one is asking questions the other is giving information.
CCP can *ask* players about all sorts of things. I don't have any issue with that. There is no need for a nda.
I think you are just infected with a bitter outsider syndrome. Run up for elections if you want to be 'in'.
In reference to the 'asking': The CSM is asked to present a players view on the upcoming eve features and the general direction more often than on past features. Of course you would have to tell them something about said future before getting an opinion, right?
Originally by: Cearain Yeah except read Trebor's post that proves there are indeed opportunities for abuse.
And yet they allow players to post on the forums, even though a small percentage of them will still abuse their posting rights despite the publically available forum rules. Does this mean noone should be allowed to post at all, just to prevent any possible abuse?
Does a potential abuse, which is covered by RL binding NDA's immediately call for discontinuation of a program which otherwise produces valuable results? I guess you can and should agree on both!
Being too afraid often makes the difference between implementing a good idea and missing the opportunity; being too pessimistic about something is never going to win you something.
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.08.17 20:50:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Cearain There is a difference between *asking* a set of players what they think about this or that idea, and *telling* them what will or won't be included in the next expansion. The difference is one is asking questions the other is giving information.
CCP can *ask* players about all sorts of things. I don't have any issue with that. There is no need for a nda.
And as far as my asking for 100% guarantee you keep ignoring my point.
I am just suggesting that the advantages of giving csm nda type information (which no one has yet offered something csm accomplished thanks to getting nda info) do not outweigh the many negatives I list. E.g., likelyhood that that information will be abused, make the communication between csm and players more opaque etc.
I assume you've never been in a closed beta before for an MMO. There's a buttload you get to find out well in advance of even the regular beta testers that come in later on. I ended up getting in on every EverQuest 2 expansion up until the last two they put out, well before the regular beta test crowd gets in. Lots of NDA stuff to deal with, and usually 6 or 7 months in advance of release date. It's common practice...CCP probably keep a better eye on their NDA people than most companies do. There is very little to be concerned with about the CSM or whatever as a player honestly. It's not like this is secret stuff that will never hit the game like some secret government weapon or whatever... - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations
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Posted - 2011.08.17 20:54:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Aemmaria
Originally by: Cearain
What you say proves that CSM receives information that can greatly benefit them in game. You of course, claim that you have been honest and never abused that information. Whether or not I accept your claim is really irrelevant. I don't trust all the csm members as much as you.
If I would you, I wouldn't feel nor bad nor exceptional.
Paranoia is widespread enough disease.
Anyone who is well read in world history knows that paranoia is the real killer. Need not go far to find evidence of people(s) who spread fear and misinformation for personal gain.
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2011.08.17 21:24:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Cearain Yeah except read Trebor's post that proves there are indeed opportunities for abuse.
Trust me, if I find out Mittens has broken the NDA, first I'll blackmail him, and then I'll rat him out. And I know he'd do the same to me. This is EVE, after all.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.17 21:24:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Barakkus
Originally by: Cearain There is a difference between *asking* a set of players what they think about this or that idea, and *telling* them what will or won't be included in the next expansion. The difference is one is asking questions the other is giving information.
CCP can *ask* players about all sorts of things. I don't have any issue with that. There is no need for a nda.
And as far as my asking for 100% guarantee you keep ignoring my point.
I am just suggesting that the advantages of giving csm nda type information (which no one has yet offered something csm accomplished thanks to getting nda info) do not outweigh the many negatives I list. E.g., likelyhood that that information will be abused, make the communication between csm and players more opaque etc.
I assume you've never been in a closed beta before for an MMO. There's a buttload you get to find out well in advance of even the regular beta testers that come in later on. I ended up getting in on every EverQuest 2 expansion up until the last two they put out, well before the regular beta test crowd gets in. Lots of NDA stuff to deal with, and usually 6 or 7 months in advance of release date. It's common practice...CCP probably keep a better eye on their NDA people than most companies do. There is very little to be concerned with about the CSM or whatever as a player honestly. It's not like this is secret stuff that will never hit the game like some secret government weapon or whatever...
You probably do not know that most "NDA stuff" is not there to protect other players but to protect the game designers from having their game ripped off.
It is these different purposes of the "NDA stuff" that you seem not to fully grasp.
But anyway no one has taken issue with any of the actual points I raised. Just replies claiming its just my opinion and I must be paranoid because I don't trust certain people on csm. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.17 21:33:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Cearain Yeah except read Trebor's post that proves there are indeed opportunities for abuse.
Trust me, if I find out Mittens has broken the NDA, first I'll blackmail him, and then I'll rat him out. And I know he'd do the same to me. This is EVE, after all.
Trust me if I find out I will report it too.
Of course, we have no chance of finding that out. So our assurances are meaningless. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Yseri
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Posted - 2011.08.17 22:05:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Speaking from personal experience, being on CSM often constrains your freedom to exploit public information, out of concern that it might appear you are acting on inside information.
In other words, CCP has publicly said X, and CSM knows X+Y. Just knowing X, a smart person could deduce that stockpiling A would be a good idea. Knowing X+Y makes it even more likely it's a smart move. So now I can't buy A, because that might be perceived as insider trading.
Being on CSM has certainly cost me a billion here and a billion there... feel free to send me some ISK ingame to make it up to me.
That's fine, but nothing stops you from having dozens of alts earning much more on insider info. While I couldn't care less about all this, since I'm a solo player with no interest in nullsec and alliances, from my perspective the CSM doesn't bring anything to the table. They act on behalf of alliances that elected them, which is obviously to be expected, and normal players don't benefit from CSM at all - actually alliances acting on insider knowledge can only affect normal players negatively, for example by manipulating the market. Believing that people with knowledge worth a lot wouldn't use that knowledge is just childish naivity, and in my eyes having CSM as a risk factor outweighs positive sides (of which I personally see none). But of course the ones benefiting, like alliance leaders and members, would strongly disagree.
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Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
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Posted - 2011.08.17 22:19:00 -
[69]
Even if your premise were true, (and I don't believe it is), EVE is all about inequality and it's design has always attempted to give players choices in what they can do, give low tier , low skill ship/players meaningfull roles they can play in struggles against players who've have far more skills and game wealth etc.
"meaningful" not equal.
The goal here is to have fun. You need a challenge to have fun, not equal odds in carefully designed fights.
Fun.. its a sandbox, the struggle is going to be what you look back on.
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Schani Kratnorr
x13 Raiden.
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Posted - 2011.08.17 22:20:00 -
[70]
The current CSM is invalid as the election result was heavily influenced by allowing trials and re-activation accounts vote. Once CCP buckles and nerf end-game PvP people will finally realize it is time to move on... then I will be all alone in my spaceship and declare myself winner of EVE before moving on to Chess or Tennis.
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Seatec Astronomy
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Posted - 2011.08.17 23:05:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Cearain
But anyway no one has taken issue with any of the actual points I raised. Just replies claiming its just my opinion and I must be paranoid because I don't trust certain people on csm.
Just because everyone thinks you're paranoid, doesn't mean you're not.
.
He who breaks the law shall be punished back to the House of Pain. -- Sayer of the Law |
Zirise
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.08.18 01:02:00 -
[72]
OP is jealous of the current CSM c/d?
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Dub Step
Minmatar Death To Everyone But Us
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Posted - 2011.08.18 01:06:00 -
[73]
I am an ex-CSM member, alt posting obviously.
I would like to point out I profited by at least 1.4 trillion isk from insider information thanks to my involvement with the CSM.
Cry more noobs, what else would you expect.
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Zirise
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.08.18 01:14:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Dub Step I am an ex-CSM member, alt posting obviously.
I would like to point out I profited by at least 1.4 trillion isk from insider information thanks to my involvement with the CSM.
Cry more noobs, what else would you expect.
I too like to make unprovable claims to validate arguments.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations
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Posted - 2011.08.18 01:36:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Zirise
Originally by: Dub Step I am an ex-CSM member, alt posting obviously.
I would like to point out I profited by at least 1.4 trillion isk from insider information thanks to my involvement with the CSM.
Cry more noobs, what else would you expect.
I too like to make unprovable claims to validate arguments.
This.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.18 03:52:00 -
[76]
Originally by: KaarBaak
Originally by: Cearain
But anyway no one has taken issue with any of the actual points I raised. Just replies claiming its just my opinion and I must be paranoid because I don't trust certain people on csm.
Just because everyone thinks you're paranoid, doesn't mean you're not.
Most people posting are not claiming I am paranoid. Of the posters who do not share my concern the views seem to be:
Some say I'm jealous that others get to do insider trading.
Others say I should run so I can do the insider trading myself.
Others say thats life - lots of things are unfair.
But very few are saying they have faith that all the csm members aren't abusing this information and calling me paranoid for thinking it may be happening. In fact when xhaggen took that line many posters thought he was a bit nanve.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Judge Ment
BOOM BOOM POW
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Posted - 2011.08.18 03:54:00 -
[77]
I dislike what I can not understand... why doesnt CCP understand me? CSM ------------------------------------- We judge others by actions We judge ourselves by intentions. |
Dub Step
Minmatar Death To Everyone But Us
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Posted - 2011.08.18 08:41:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Zirise
Originally by: Dub Step I am an ex-CSM member, alt posting obviously.
I would like to point out I profited by at least 1.4 trillion isk from insider information thanks to my involvement with the CSM.
Cry more noobs, what else would you expect.
I too like to make unprovable claims to validate arguments.
Where in my post was I trying to validate an argument? I was just providing information.
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CCP Xhagen
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Posted - 2011.08.18 09:11:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Dub Step While we have someone from CCP's attention
I would like to know why ankesentapemkahwhatshername was kicked from the CSM. Information was given about Adam Ridgway / Larkonis and it would be interesting to know. I appreciate Larkonis was open about this himself while we have heard nothing from Ankesenta... although I assume she quit.
I cannot give out any information about Ankhesentapemkah. ____________________________ CSM Project Manager
EVE Online CCP Games |
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Dub Step
Minmatar Death To Everyone But Us
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Posted - 2011.08.18 09:21:00 -
[80]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Dub Step While we have someone from CCP's attention
I would like to know why ankesentapemkahwhatshername was kicked from the CSM. Information was given about Adam Ridgway / Larkonis and it would be interesting to know. I appreciate Larkonis was open about this himself while we have heard nothing from Ankesenta... although I assume she quit.
I cannot give out any information about Ankhesentapemkah.
BOO! Actually, I suspected this would be the case. Thanks for the reply anyway.
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CCP Xhagen
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Posted - 2011.08.18 09:53:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Cearain You make it sound like CCP is completely immune to logic.
What I want is for CCP to consider what benefit they receive from csm by giving them an unfair advantage.
You can still have a csm that would recomend fixing rockets and adding the training q without giving them the unfair advantage of nda information over other players.
You are correct here. We very well could have a CSM without giving them any information. But their abilities to convey appropriate suggestions at the appropriate time is severely diminished if they don't have a context to work in. The CSM you are suggesting here was how were things from CSM1 to CSM4. The CSM has now moved to being a proactive body rather than a reactive body. They are a stakeholder in the development process - and although they do reviews after the fact as well, their strengths are better utilized to prevent issues rather than pointing them out afterwards (I hope this makes sense).
Originally by: Cearain The points I have made remain undisputed:
1)CSM can't possibly know what players think about nda material because the players haven't even heard of it let alone commented on it. So csm won't represent players with respect to that anyway.
2)Players can't make educated choices about who will be on csm because so much of the discussion lately seems to be over nda material. So the elections which are already a joke are even more problematic.
3) The chair of the csm has said the exact opposite of what CCP Xhaggen claimed for a reason people run for csm. So CCP is obviously unable to correctly guage what is going on.
4) In all the time that csm has had access to this nda material not one example of a benefit to the game has been raised. The claims to fame as to what csm has accomplished have almost always been things that players knew about and wanted changed. Training q. Rockets etc.
5) It would be very very hard to detect if nda information is being abused by the players on the csm.
6) I and several others think CCP Xhaggen is crazy to claim they don't think anyone is on csm for personal gain. Since the NDA is almost impossible to police its all just scouts honor. My hunch would be nda info is being abused which is a real detriment to the game.
I agree that you have made these points but it appears to me that you are both underestimating and overestimating both the general player (yourself included) and the CSM. You overestimate the CSM in their intention to gain from being on the CSM (I'll come to the quote you reference from the Mittani) and you underestimate the cleverness of the general player. CCP is often reminded of just how clever EVE players can be and their abilities to anticipate changes and game the system is often wonderful to see.
I fully realize that the above clause, i.e. gaming the system, has to be applied to the CSM as well - that is why we have the NDA. Furthermore, the trust I mentioned earlier is something that the CSM and CCP respect which further enforces the honesty of the CSM members. If the CSM wants NDA information they have to uphold the NDA. If they release NDA information or abuse it, they stop receiving it. So it is in their interest to uphold the NDA and not abusing information.
The Mittani won't be gagged or prevented from stating what he wants (barring NDA material) just because he is on the CSM. Of course he will focus on 0.0 gameplay as that is the game he plays. But being in 0.0 does not mean that you can ignore new players or mission runners - judging from what he has said in the meetings he fully realizes that.
Originally by: Cearain In the end there is no reason to take risks with the integrity of the game by giving certain players advantageous information that the others do not have.
I think this is a case of "we have to agree on disagreeing". We are running the CSM as we see it as beneficial to EVE. It is perfectly alright to disagree with that.
P.S. Are you intentionally misspelling my name? ____________________________ CSM Project Manager
EVE Online CCP Games |
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CCP Xhagen
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Posted - 2011.08.18 09:55:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Dub Step Edited by: Dub Step on 18/08/2011 09:23:24
Originally by: Zirise
Originally by: Dub Step I am an ex-CSM member, alt posting obviously.
I would like to point out I profited by at least 1.4 trillion isk from insider information thanks to my involvement with the CSM.
Cry more noobs, what else would you expect.
I too like to make unprovable claims to validate arguments.
Where in my post was I trying to validate an argument? I was just providing information trolling.
EDIT: Apologies for being an idiot. I hate trolls with a passion so it's a bit hypocritical of me to be lying and winding people up.
Heh, I was going to reply to your first post with "Cool story bro". I'll rate your trolling at 1/10 - practice and you'll get better ____________________________ CSM Project Manager
EVE Online CCP Games |
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Dub Step
Minmatar Death To Everyone But Us
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Posted - 2011.08.18 10:21:00 -
[83]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen Heh, I was going to reply to your first post with "Cool story bro". I'll rate your trolling at 1/10 - practice and you'll get better
Ahaha, cool story bro
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Cortante
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Posted - 2011.08.18 13:39:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Cortante on 18/08/2011 13:40:41 Why do you think CSM members are almost always from large null-sec alliances? And why do you think alliances try to get multiple people on the CSM?
1. Get on CSM 2. Find out what ships are getting buffed, nerfed, and to what extent. What moon mining materials are going to be made more rare. 3. Get on instant messenger with a throw-away IM name, message friend in your alliance the details. Knowing what ships and materials are going to gain and lose value is used by the alliance to create an advantage for themselves. 4. There is zero chance of you being caught.
NDA's are unenforceable, a meaningless piece of paper developed to assuage the fears of the common EVE player. CCP knows they have no ability to police CSM members using information to the advantage of their goals in EVE. CCP does not care that having the CSM creates an uneven playing field. It's too useful as cheap PR, after all.
If you think this isn't the sole reason most of the CSM want to be on the CSM, then I've got a Megathron Navy Issue to sell you for cheap. The CSM does not represent the players, it represents the interests of large alliances who want an unfair advantage by receiving peeks into future game development.
EVE players will always cheat when you give them the opportunity. CSM is a joke.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations
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Posted - 2011.08.18 14:33:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Cortante Edited by: Cortante on 18/08/2011 13:40:41 Why do you think CSM members are almost always from large null-sec alliances? And why do you think alliances try to get multiple people on the CSM?
1. Get on CSM 2. Find out what ships are getting buffed, nerfed, and to what extent. What moon mining materials are going to be made more rare. 3. Get on instant messenger with a throw-away IM name, message friend in your alliance the details. Knowing what ships and materials are going to gain and lose value is used by the alliance to create an advantage for themselves. 4. There is zero chance of you being caught.
NDA's are unenforceable, a meaningless piece of paper developed to assuage the fears of the common EVE player. CCP knows they have no ability to police CSM members using information to the advantage of their goals in EVE. CCP does not care that having the CSM creates an uneven playing field. It's too useful as cheap PR, after all.
If you think this isn't the sole reason most of the CSM want to be on the CSM, then I've got a Megathron Navy Issue to sell you for cheap. The CSM does not represent the players, it represents the interests of large alliances who want an unfair advantage by receiving peeks into future game development.
EVE players will always cheat when you give them the opportunity. CSM is a joke.
How sad your world must be, what a shame,
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.18 14:45:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Barakkus You do realize most MMOs have almost the exact same setup with a player focus group that CCP does with the CSM right? Except usually they don't make it a public thing and it's rather informal, but still covered by an NDA.
Those are the people that killed Guild Wars. I see EvE moving in the exact same direction.
Anet is over 3 years late on GW2 and PvP is a ghost town.
You would think people would learn from history. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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