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How can being on csm *not* give an in game advantage?

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Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 01:35:00 - [1] The minutes from the last csm summit took a very long time to get published because they had to double check for nda stuff. How is it even possible that certain null sec alliance know more about the upcoming changes than everyone else, yet this isn't an advantage? I mean sure the csm may not know with certainty what ccp is going to do, but they know allot better than everyone else. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Sader Rykane Amarr The Dark Space Initiative Revival Of The Talocan Empire	Posted - 2011.08.17 01:39:00 - [2] Run for CSM or stop whining.
Tippia Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.08.17 01:48:00 - [3] Because the last guy who tried to take advantage of his NDA knowledge was thrown out, banned, roflstomped, and got his balls put in a viceà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Empy Ralt	Posted - 2011.08.17 01:49:00 - [4] Since CCP's plans are vague and unlikely to happen anytime soon, and they will put out a blog long before anything actually happens, it's not much of an advantage.
Fix Lag	Posted - 2011.08.17 01:50:00 - [5] Originally by: Tippia Because the last guy who tried to take advantage of his NDA knowledge was thrown out, banned, roflstomped, and got his balls put in a viceà Gal, actually. Fix Lag!
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 02:30:00 - [6] Originally by: Tippia Because the last guy who tried to take advantage of his NDA knowledge was thrown out, banned, roflstomped, and got his balls put in a viceà Well 1) he did the action directly not have an alliance mate do it for him or even just give instuctions to his alliance. 2) he was at least honest enough to admit it. Lets say they would have another anomoly nerf. Certain alliances just didn't upgrade them. Well what could possibly happen? The alliances that are upgrading are not acting optimally. Those with the inside scoop are acting optimally. What is going to possibly get nerfed and what definitely won't get nerfed. Of the players the csm knows best. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2011.08.17 02:40:00 - [7] Originally by: Cearain What is going to possibly get nerfed and what definitely won't get nerfed. Of the players the csm knows best. Actually, the CCP developers themselves know best. Newsflash, they play EVE too. ---
Judge Ment BOOM BOOM POW	Posted - 2011.08.17 02:55:00 - [8] Most the people in BOB were CCP ------------------------------------- We judge others by actions We judge ourselves by intentions.
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 03:35:00 - [9] Originally by: Abdiel Kavash Originally by: Cearain What is going to possibly get nerfed and what definitely won't get nerfed. Of the players the csm knows best. Actually, the CCP developers themselves know best. Newsflash, they play EVE too. Ok so they know best but csm still has and advantage over every other alliance leader. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Nezumiiro Noneko	Posted - 2011.08.17 03:48:00 - [10] don't worry...even with advanced knowledge, things still get messed up lol. The csm that got sneak peak into the dominion sov changes had PL members on it as I recall. PL allianced with SOT...called splot by many after. The pl reps did not bring back very good info. IT's foothold a ways back in 0.0 started with PL's BFF's SOT messing up sov mechanics. Quite funny that...thye had info from the devs mouths...and didn't pass it to their boys, or pass it very well. Now markets and such....yeah you have some justified fears. It wouldn't be a csm if one of them didn;t come back and speculate on the markets. Been away for a bit...not sure how this one faired. Most prior csm's....yeah, alwasy one member kicked for insider trading or something along those lines.

Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 04:10:00 - [11] Well they are doing more of a balance release in winter than with dominion. But here is the thing: Would you rather A) Run an alliance with all the information in the nda about the null sec winter release or B) Run an alliance without all the information in the nda about null sec winter release? Not a very hard question to answer is it? -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Naradius DEATHFUNK	Posted - 2011.08.17 05:21:00 - [12] To the OP - Your assumption is flawed, in that, CCP have yet to fulfill any plans...ever. You also assume that CCP actually know what they are doing!!
Stitcher Caldari	Posted - 2011.08.17 07:05:00 - [13] Edited by: Stitcher on 17/08/2011 07:06:15 Originally by: Naradius To the OP - Your assumption is flawed, in that, CCP have yet to fulfill any plans...ever. They released the game didn't they? And we've got updated graphics and walking in stations (technically. In that we have characters who can walk, while in stations). - - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Kogh Ayon	Posted - 2011.08.17 07:13:00 - [14] Edited by: Kogh Ayon on 17/08/2011 07:18:10 Originally by: Sader Rykane Run for CSM or stop whining. This Originally by: Judge Ment Most the people in BOB were CCP I can still remember this guy since he's keep showing the bottom line of human being's intelligence so well throughout the forum.... Originally by: Cearain Well they are doing more of a balance release in winter than with dominion. But here is the thing: Would you rather A) Run an alliance with all the information in the nda about the null sec winter release or B) Run an alliance without all the information in the nda about null sec winter release? Not a very hard question to answer is it? Obviously, as far as being a CSM could get access to the information which is not available to ordinary players, then there will have these advantages. Solution? No information being hided from CCP or CSM. or No CSM. or Let's find out that people whining about this are just minimum that we do not really have to care
Aelius Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2011.08.17 08:19:00 - [15] Originally by: Tippia Because the last guy who tried to take advantage of his NDA knowledge was thrown out, banned, roflstomped, and got his balls put in a viceà WOW... the things CCP are able to do... trans-gender genetics FTW ___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator
Digital Messiah Gallente Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.08.17 09:24:00 - [16] I think it is good to have that inside scoop running around. Most of the time it only effects a small minority and later allows a majority to specialize. Though I doubt to much info is getting leaked. Plus it grants insight to ccp from the player base on which changes will be most popular. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Dub Step Minmatar Death To Everyone But Us	Posted - 2011.08.17 09:31:00 - [17] Adam Ridgway
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc.	Posted - 2011.08.17 09:32:00 - [18] Imagine being CSM with prior knowledge about what CCP was planning on doing NPC sold consumer products around the Tyrannis expansion. Please point out how that knowledge would be an advantage, not a disadvantage. Basically everyone with a brain got stinking rich, and if the CSM had known more (such as to fall under NDA) they wouldn't personally have been able to profit from it despite how obvious the ramifications were of PI.
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 13:14:00 - [19] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Imagine being CSM with prior knowledge about what CCP was planning on doing NPC sold consumer products around the Tyrannis expansion. Please point out how that knowledge would be an advantage, not a disadvantage. Basically everyone with a brain got stinking rich, and if the CSM had known more (such as to fall under NDA) they wouldn't personally have been able to profit from it despite how obvious the ramifications were of PI. Once its public knowledge then csm can act on it like every other player. So being on csm and knowing the nda material is never a disadvantage. But your point is a good one because they will likely have knowledge like this that players don't have. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 13:19:00 - [20] Originally by: Kogh Ayon Originally by: Cearain Well they are doing more of a balance release in winter than with dominion. But here is the thing: Would you rather A) Run an alliance with all the information in the nda about the null sec winter release or B) Run an alliance without all the information in the nda about null sec winter release? Not a very hard question to answer is it? Obviously, as far as being a CSM could get access to the information which is not available to ordinary players, then there will have these advantages. Solution? No information being hided from CCP or CSM. or No CSM. or Let's find out that people whining about this are just minimum that we do not really have to care IMO CSM seems to have very little good impact on the game to warrant any unfair treatment to certain players. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1

Cashcow Golden Goose	Posted - 2011.08.17 14:07:00 - [21] Giving a person a heads up on how to make a guaranteed fortune makes no sense. On CCP it does. CCP: Not even once.
E man Industries	Posted - 2011.08.17 14:07:00 - [22] Well goons are shifting away from a dependency on moon goo to fund there ship replacment program... Make of that what you will. ______ Hello WoW players. Look at your toon, now back to me. Sadly it isn't me, but if it wasn't simplistic pre scripted linear mono dimensional game you could look like me. I'm in a Paladin

CCP Xhagen	Posted - 2011.08.17 14:15:00 - [23] Originally by: Cearain The minutes from the last csm summit took a very long time to get published because they had to double check for nda stuff. How is it even possible that certain null sec alliance know more about the upcoming changes than everyone else, yet this isn't an advantage? I mean sure the csm may not know with certainty what ccp is going to do, but they know allot better than everyone else. This question falls under my purview. The answer is that all CSM members do sign an NDA (with their real names) - which is a certain deterrent when it comes to disclosure of and/or acting on information the normal player doesn't have. Furthermore, we (CCP) monitor what the CSM is up to, so they under more scrutiny than the normal player. And the CSM is adamant on upholding the NDA - on numerous occasions they contact us before posting just to make sure that they are not revealing anything. But I think you perhaps misunderstand why people run for the CSM. It is not to get information on what is coming to EVE and potentially gain from it, it is to make EVE better for all parties. We have a very good working relationship with the CSM and we trust that they don't abuse it. That is the core of the CSM. I hope this addresses your concerns. ____________________________ CSM Project Manager EVE Online CCP Games

Gripen	Posted - 2011.08.17 14:35:00 - [24] Originally by: CCP Xhagen But I think you perhaps misunderstand why people run for the CSM. It is not to get information on what is coming to EVE and potentially gain from it, it is to make EVE better for all parties. We have a very good working relationship with the CSM and we trust that they don't abuse it. That is the core of the CSM. Cool story, bro.
Lilith Ishanoya Lai Dai Shipments	Posted - 2011.08.17 14:39:00 - [25] Originally by: CCP Xhagen Originally by: Cearain The minutes from the last csm summit took a very long time to get published because they had to double check for nda stuff. How is it even possible that certain null sec alliance know more about the upcoming changes than everyone else, yet this isn't an advantage? I mean sure the csm may not know with certainty what ccp is going to do, but they know allot better than everyone else. This question falls under my purview. The answer is that all CSM members do sign an NDA (with their real names) - which is a certain deterrent when it comes to disclosure of and/or acting on information the normal player doesn't have. Furthermore, we (CCP) monitor what the CSM is up to, so they under more scrutiny than the normal player. And the CSM is adamant on upholding the NDA - on numerous occasions they contact us before posting just to make sure that they are not revealing anything. But I think you perhaps misunderstand why people run for the CSM. It is not to get information on what is coming to EVE and potentially gain from it, it is to make EVE better for all parties. We have a very good working relationship with the CSM and we trust that they don't abuse it. That is the core of the CSM. I hope this addresses your concerns. That is a very optimistic and quite possibly unrealistic view. __ Friendliness goes a long way
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.08.17 14:41:00 - [26] Originally by: CCP Xhagen But I think you perhaps misunderstand why people run for the CSM. It is not to get information on what is coming to EVE and potentially gain from it, it is to make EVE better for all parties. We have a very good working relationship with the CSM and we trust that they don't abuse it. That is the core of the CSM. Did you keep a straight face when you typed that? Originally by: CCP Zulu Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Norse'Storm Battle Group Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2011.08.17 14:51:00 - [27] Originally by: CCP Xhagen But I think you perhaps misunderstand why people run for the CSM. It is not to get information on what is coming to EVE and potentially gain from it, it is to get a free trip to Iceland and play golf under the midnight sun. And drink beer. I hope this addresses your concerns. I fixed your post for you. Seems your keyboard rearranged some of the letters spontaneously into nonsense while you were typing. --Vel Originally by: Blacksquirrel This is EVE. PVE can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.08.17 14:56:00 - [28] CCP plants spais in corps/alliances to watch people privy to sensitive information. - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Killer Gandry Caldari Shadow of the Pain	Posted - 2011.08.17 15:00:00 - [29] Edited by: Killer Gandry on 17/08/2011 15:00:31 Originally by: CCP Xhagen This question falls under my purview. The answer is that all CSM members do sign an NDA (with their real names) - which is a certain deterrent when it comes to disclosure of and/or acting on information the normal player doesn't have. Furthermore, we (CCP) monitor what the CSM is up to, so they under more scrutiny than the normal player. And the CSM is adamant on upholding the NDA - on numerous occasions they contact us before posting just to make sure that they are not revealing anything. But I think you perhaps misunderstand why people run for the CSM. It is not to get information on what is coming to EVE and potentially gain from it, it is to make EVE better for all parties. We have a very good working relationship with the CSM and we trust that they don't abuse it. That is the core of the CSM. I hope this addresses your concerns. And we have a winner for the EVE Fiction writing contest. Do not fear death so much but rather the inadequate life.
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 15:05:00 - [30] Originally by: CCP Xhagen .... And the CSM is adamant on upholding the NDA - on numerous occasions they contact us before posting just to make sure that they are not revealing anything.... ...But I think you perhaps misunderstand why people run for the CSM. It is not to get information on what is coming to EVE and potentially gain from it, it is to make EVE better for all parties. .... Thanks for the response. But this is very little help. You say you monitor them, but they can talk out of game. Plus many things would be very hard to identify as a specific fraud. I realize one csm in the past got drunk and purchased billions of isk worth of something. That was a pretty blatant misuse of information. But not everyone will be so obvious. @ the first quoted sentence: The fact that CSM is adamant in keeping what they know from the rest of the players is actually not helpful to this particular concern. Sure they want to be the only ones with information. That is how they get the advantage. If they publicly released what they knew they would blow any advantage they had. @ the second quoted sentence: You know mittani explicitly said he isn't there to make the game better for all players, just those who elected him. Goons. Although I will agree Mittani is generally not to be trusted, I think I believe him on this. He has said numerous times he doesn't care about many different groups opinions. So I think you may misunderstand why people are running for csm. I am not reassured that you get along so well with certain people who I don't trust a bit. And it seems ccp is specifically marketing eve to people who would like to put up false pretenses in order to cheat others. So I'm not sure csm is a good match for the game. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1

Barakkus	Posted - 2011.08.17 15:08:00 - [31] Originally by: Cearain Originally by: CCP Xhagen .... And the CSM is adamant on upholding the NDA - on numerous occasions they contact us before posting just to make sure that they are not revealing anything.... ...But I think you perhaps misunderstand why people run for the CSM. It is not to get information on what is coming to EVE and potentially gain from it, it is to make EVE better for all parties. .... Thanks for the response. But this is very little help. You say you monitor them, but they can talk out of game. Plus many things would be very hard to identify as a specific fraud. I realize one csm in the past got drunk and purchased billions of isk worth of something. That was a pretty blatant misuse of information. But not everyone will be so obvious. @ the first quoted sentence: The fact that CSM is adamant in keeping what they know from the rest of the players is actually not helpful to this particular concern. Sure they want to be the only ones with information. That is how they get the advantage. If they publicly released what they knew they would blow any advantage they had. @ the second quoted sentence: You know mittani explicitly said he isn't there to make the game better for all players, just those who elected him. Goons. Although I will agree Mittani is generally not to be trusted, I think I believe him on this. He has said numerous times he doesn't care about many different groups opinions. So I think you may misunderstand why people are running for csm. I am not reassured that you get along so well with certain people who I don't trust a bit. And it seems ccp is specifically marketing eve to people who would like to put up false pretenses in order to cheat others. So I'm not sure csm is a good match for the game. The csm has very little influence on what ccp ultimately decides to do, it's just a pr thing, really nothing more than a way to shut the whiners up when things get too loud. - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 15:12:00 - [32] BTW I don't think the only alternative is to scrap the csm. (Although that would be the better alternative than the current situation) I think you can have the csm but just don't give nda information to them. After all how can the csm represent players views on things that the players don't even know about anyway? This would also have the advantage of making the dialogues between csm and ccp transparent to the players. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 15:15:00 - [33] Originally by: Barakkus The csm has very little influence on what ccp ultimately decides to do, it's just a pr thing, really nothing more than a way to shut the whiners up when things get too loud. The issue is not that csm can sway ccp. (although since csm has such a limitted effect there isn't much to counterbalance giving certain players better information about future game mechanics) The problem is that they know more about what ccp is going to do and can plan accordingly. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.08.17 15:43:00 - [34] Edited by: Cipher Jones on 17/08/2011 15:46:54 Originally by: Cearain Originally by: Barakkus The csm has very little influence on what ccp ultimately decides to do, it's just a pr thing, really nothing more than a way to shut the whiners up when things get too loud. The issue is not that csm can sway ccp. (although since csm has such a limitted effect there isn't much to counterbalance giving certain players better information about future game mechanics) The problem is that they know more about what ccp is going to do and can plan accordingly. For example there is current speculation about moving Ice belts. Whatever the outcome is, the CSM can use the information to make money. Same with ABC's. Same with hybrid buff. I'm not saying they do, Im just saying that its plausible, possible, and probable. Quote: on numerous occasions they contact us before posting just to make sure that they are not revealing anything. If I had the information I wouldn't have to reveal it to anyone in a post to make billions from it. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.17 15:58:00 - [35] Edited by: Mendolus on 17/08/2011 15:58:59 Hate to burst your bubble Cearain, but nothing is ever absolutely fair or balanced, and all these issues you are bringing up are mostly hypothetical. Fact is, some people are just going to have it better than you do, that's life. Are the CSM somehow monopolizing the entire game for their own benefit? Highly unlikely. Did they seek their seat in the CSM for absolutely pure and unerringly altruistic reasons? No, everyone does things for their own benefit even when they are trying to benefit another. There are few truly altruistic acts, most of which involve saving another's life at the expense or at great detriment to your own. Even if I join the CSM and convince myself wholeheartedly that every action I take is for the benefit of another, I still get a good feeling from that belief, do I not? So I benefit, and I have an advantage over others who cannot claim those same feelings of accomplishment and goodiness. The plain truth is everyone involved in the CSM on either side of the fence has a vested interest in the game, and their enjoyment or support of it, so whatever it is they are doing, is with the goal that the game keeps going strong, and they are able to profit from the experiences they have in both present and future events. That is an advantage you can never take away from the CSM no matter the lack of NDAs or full disclosure or anything of the like. The CSM have the clear and present advantage of being able to physically meet with, discuss, and parlay with CCP representatives. You can continue to split hairs on this issue until the point of nausea and still never actually come to a solid position where CSM is not an advantage over others. You yourself have an advantage of your own, along with a few hundred or maybe thousand other browsers of this forum, that you have read and been a part of a direct dialog between yourself and a CCP representative. Not everyone in EVE is going to have knowledge of this exchange, so do you not have your own advantages over others? You do, no sense in arguing you do not.
Brooks Puuntai Minmatar Nomadic Asylum	Posted - 2011.08.17 16:05:00 - [36] People don't seem to realize that CSM have very little effect on CCPs overall direction. So throwing a hissy fit over a 0.0 CSM or Mittani is really pointless. The CSM can really only give their advice on what CCP is doing. In the end CCP makes the final call. So saying that Mittani is going to **** Eve over for his benefit is comical. Also of course Mittani is going to favor 0.0 and look out whats best for Goons, its kind of how a democratic system works. You look out for those who voted for you. As for the NDA stuff, like the Dev already said CSM members are monitored very heavily to insure they don't use that info to their own benefit or anyone they know personally. If anything CSM might be hindered on what they can do since some might not want to risk abusing the system even after the changes are released.

CCP Xhagen	Posted - 2011.08.17 16:40:00 - [37] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: CCP Xhagen But I think you perhaps misunderstand why people run for the CSM. It is not to get information on what is coming to EVE and potentially gain from it, it is to make EVE better for all parties. We have a very good working relationship with the CSM and we trust that they don't abuse it. That is the core of the CSM. Did you keep a straight face when you typed that? Sure did. Ask anyone, I'm the straight-face type. As I see it, the general assumption being made in this thread is that 'people will take advantage of information they are given, even when they are not supposed to' and then the argument is made. And while I share this assumption when nothing like either the NDA is in place nor the history of the CSM, I don't share this assumption when it comes to the CSM. Believe it or not, the past and present CSM members have taken the trust between the CSM and CCP very seriously and both parties have done their best to maintain it and develop it. And while I could wake up every morning and say 'oh boy the CSM is going to screw us now' but I choose not to. Instead we instituted the NDA, we made processes to deal with it if the CSM should break the NDA and we trust the CSM not to reveal or abuse information they have that the general player does not have. We choose to run the CSM like this. Some people tell us we are crazy, others tell us we are brave. I personally don't think we are either, we are doing everything we can think of to keep the EVE community healthy and growing and we see the CSM as a part of that. And (starting yet another sentence with an 'and') until I'm proven wrong I will continue to manage and run the CSM the best I can, in the manner described above. When I'm proven wrong, I will have to readjust my stance. ____________________________ CSM Project Manager EVE Online CCP Games

Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.17 17:03:00 - [38] Originally by: CCP Xhagen ... Agreed, nothing is ever certain, and if we were to always simply spend our time imagining ways things could go wrong, we would never get out of our chairs and do anything at all. The NDA was signed, it is a legal document, the CSM understood that when they committed, and beyond that well, what else can anyone really do? CSM is brought in to represent players behind the curtains, and that is just what they do. Removing the curtain removes the CSM. I for one appreciate the fact that there is even a CSM to begin with, regardless of their efficacy or impact on the grand scheme of things, it is at the very least a warm gesture by CCP and always has been. I think part of the problem is tunnel vision, a lot of people take the game at face value, without realizing that the game is taken as a whole a lot of the time when development issues arise, especially between CSM and CCP representatives. Regardless of whether a CSM member vouches for a change in favor of or at the detriment of any person(s) in the game, CCP is tasked with the goal of determining whether said changes are better for the game as whole and not as any of its constituent parts. This is how the company I work at develops products, and frankly I see no reason why this is not a generally universal, accepted, and understand paradigm of the gaming community. The idea that CCP will not get it right simply because the CSM sway them is erroneous. CCP developers, writers, and staff work to make a single vision of a sci-fi universe for us to all use as our personal playgrounds. If we misinterpret that vision, so be it, but I highly doubt that CCP developers released such features as Faction Warfare with the intent that it would fall flat after the first few months. On the contrary, Faction Warfare would be glorious if no one exploited it, would it not? But there's the rub. Player exploitation is the most predominant issue I have seen in numerous MMOs and directly influences design decisions, and the efficacy and end result of player interactions with new content as it is released. CCP may not get it right all the time, maybe they get it wrong lately more often than we would like, but I guarantee you the players cause a vast majority of these problems themselves, things CCP could never have anticipated in a million man hours of think tanking their way through possible scenarios. I release a version of the software I am in charge of at my company, and weeks later we get a call from a client that says they hopped on one foot and hit the monitor with their right pinky finger, and the unit crashed, and what the hell are we doing over here that we cannot anticipate their actions and prevent a crash? Do not sweat the CSM, CCP still makes the last call, CSM does not gain incredible insider information that suddenly makes them rich beyond compare, nor allows their coalition to conquer all of known space in a heartbeat. Do they have an intimate and somewhat unfair knowledge of how CCP expects things to work when they release new content? Probably. Does that mean they can stream roll the rest of us? Not really.
Dub Step Minmatar Death To Everyone But Us	Posted - 2011.08.17 17:46:00 - [39] While we have someone from CCP's attention I would like to know why ankesentapemkahwhatshername was kicked from the CSM. Information was given about Adam Ridgway / Larkonis and it would be interesting to know. I appreciate Larkonis was open about this himself while we have heard nothing from Ankesenta... although I assume she quit.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.17 17:49:00 - [40] Originally by: Dub Step While we have someone from CCP's attention I would like to know why ankesentapemkahwhatshername was kicked from the CSM. Information was given about Adam Ridgway / Larkonis and it would be interesting to know. I appreciate Larkonis was open about this himself while we have heard nothing from Ankesenta... although I assume she quit. Uhhhhh isn't this old old old news? I thought she got bumped for throwing cutlery and a hissy fit during one of the meetings or something, i.e. inappropriate behavior? Ahhhhh I can just barely remember what reason was, but I can't place it. She did something tho... nuts maybe I'll recall or someone else will know.

Dub Step Minmatar Death To Everyone But Us	Posted - 2011.08.17 17:53:00 - [41] Thank you for replying to me to point out that you don't know. The reason you don't know is because it wasn't officially announced. I am asking for an official comment, not some vague guess from one of the worst posters on the forums
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 18:17:00 - [42] Originally by: CCP Xhagen Originally by: Mag's Originally by: CCP Xhagen But I think you perhaps misunderstand why people run for the CSM. It is not to get information on what is coming to EVE and potentially gain from it, it is to make EVE better for all parties. We have a very good working relationship with the CSM and we trust that they don't abuse it. That is the core of the CSM. Did you keep a straight face when you typed that? Sure did. Ask anyone, I'm the straight-face type. ..... When I'm proven wrong, I will have to readjust my stance. You claimed that CSM members ran to make EVE better for all parties. If I showed you a quote from Mittani where he specifically says he is not there for all players just those who elected him, would you admit you were proven wrong and readjust your stance? Abuse of NDA material is almost impossible to prove. (note: I said "abuse of nda material" not "release of that material" proving they released the nda material can be fairly easy to prove, but that has nothing to do with the concern I mention) Unless the person is very blatant and admits it like Larkonis, you are going to have a very hard time proving someone abused nda material. Lets say a CSM alliance leader was planning on upgrading all his sov systems to do X. Many other alliances are doing this because it seems to make the most sense. Then he meets with CCP and finds out that X is going to get nerfed and it would clearly be optimal not to take that course of action. Now do you think the CSM alliance leader will continue with his plans to upgrade the soon to be nerfed aspect? If he decides not to upgrade based on his new information how are you going to catch him and prove it? These sorts of advantages can't really be caught. To be honest as a player it would be hard to separate out what you learn ccp will do and pretend you never heard it. I really doubt all of the csm members do that. I mean he won't announce to his alliance ûô based on what I learned and was covered by the nda we are no longer going to upgrade x. ô He will just say I want to upgrade these other options. How would you be able to prove any sort of breach of the nda? I'm glad you believe no one on the current csm would ever be dishonest or abuse information. But I am not likeminded. CCP explicitly advertises for people who want to screw others over based false pretenses. And I think they are somewhat successful at getting those sorts of people. (Of course, the next ad tells everyone they should be social and make friends through eve which is somewhat contradictory.) As for me I think CSM can do their job representing players without gaining information about future changes that no other player receives. The argument that they are some sort of focus group for new Ideas is a poor one. Whatever csm is, they are not typical eve players û so they would make for a poor focus group. @ Mendolus: you don't get it. Its not about CSM persuading CCP about anything. Its the fact that they know inside information about what is going ot happen in the future in a game where economic predictions are important. The NDA is all but impossible to enforce in any but the most obvious cases of abuse. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.17 18:26:00 - [43] Edited by: Mendolus on 17/08/2011 18:28:26 Originally by: Cearain ... That's a part of life Cearain, you have people sign on the dotted line to loan a car to them, and you never know if they are going to mail a check the next month or disappear into thin air leaving you with no recourse but to contact the authorities. What do you want? There are no assurances in real life, CCP does what it can, the only way for the CSM to function for the intended purpose of allowing player representatives behind the scenes to speak on the behalf of the subscriber base is to... allow them behind the scenes. Numerous people have pointed this out to you, but you continue to claim that there are better ways, like letting EVERYONE behind the scenes? Or not allowing ANYONE behind the scenes? What point does it serve? Either you have mass panic with the former or less symbiosis with the latter. Right now CCP is straddling the fence trying to have the best of both worlds. No one is saying this is a guarantee, not CCP Xhagen, not I, not you. But what else is there in life but having to take risks to seize opportunities? CCP views the CSM as an acceptable risk, nothing you say, think, or do is going to change this. Mittani can talk all he wants, but CCP developers take it upon themselves what risks and disclosures they are willing to give to the CSM itself, so just like any virtual corporation in the game, only trust people with something you are already willing to lose in the worst case scenario, that they turn out to be a spook. It's real life, you're unfortunately going to have to deal with it like everyone else, or spend all your time worrying over things you have no control over.
Ryhss Caldari The Excecutorans	Posted - 2011.08.17 18:49:00 - [44] Originally by: Empy Ralt Since CCP's plans are vague and unlikely to happen anytime soon, and they will put out a blog long before anything actually happens, it's not much of an advantage. Sounds about right. Originally by: Kaethe Kollwitz null sec sucks dongs.
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 18:54:00 - [45] Originally by: Mendolus ....What do you want? .... CCP views the CSM as an acceptable risk, nothing you say, think, or do is going to change this..... You make it sound like CCP is completely immune to logic. What I want is for CCP to consider what benefit they receive from csm by giving them an unfair advantage. You can still have a csm that would recomend fixing rockets and adding the training q without giving them the unfair advantage of nda information over other players. The points I have made remain undisputed: 1)CSM can't possibly know what players think about nda material because the players haven't even heard of it let alone commented on it. So csm won't represent players with respect to that anyway. 2)Players can't make educated choices about who will be on csm because so much of the discussion lately seems to be over nda material. So the elections which are already a joke are even more problematic. 3) The chair of the csm has said the exact opposite of what CCP Xhaggen claimed for a reason people run for csm. So CCP is obviously unable to correctly guage what is going on. 4) In all the time that csm has had access to this nda material not one example of a benefit to the game has been raised. The claims to fame as to what csm has accomplished have almost always been things that players knew about and wanted changed. Training q. Rockets etc. 5) It would be very very hard to detect if nda information is being abused by the players on the csm. 6) I and several others think CCP Xhaggen is crazy to claim they don't think anyone is on csm for personal gain. Since the NDA is almost impossible to police its all just scouts honor. My hunch would be nda info is being abused which is a real detriment to the game. In the end there is no reason to take risks with the integrity of the game by giving certain players advantageous information that the others do not have. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.08.17 18:59:00 - [46] Did the CSM only have to sign an NDA for the emergency meeting to verify that CCP has no plans for non cosmetic MT, or did they have to sign it prior the the incident? . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
Feligast Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.08.17 19:02:00 - [47] Points 1 and 4 are completely contradictory, therefore I can obviously safely ignore you.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.17 19:03:00 - [48] Originally by: Cearain ... These are your opinions, not facts. Until you have factual evidence and proof to support these claims, you are simply arguing from a pulpit. I can sit and sling hash at anyone in the room claiming they are out to get me, but that does not make it true until I have evidence within a reasonable doubt to prove it. Bring us some tangible evidence, then we will all eat our words, myself included. I admit I have no idea what the laws are like in Iceland, but here in the states, you're not guilty of anything at all until it is proven in a court of law. So saying that the CSM could be corrupt, is not the same as it actually being corrupt, and no amount of slackjawing by Mittani is going to hold up as factual evidence more than him simply aggrandizing and embellishing his position politically. Politics, is nasty business, but it is business nonetheless.
Feligast Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.08.17 19:04:00 - [49] Originally by: Cipher Jones Did the CSM only have to sign an NDA for the emergency meeting to verify that CCP has no plans for non cosmetic MT, or did they have to sign it prior the the incident? They sign it at the beginning of their term for everything they hear and do that relates to eve and CCP.
Issler Dainze Minmatar Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2011.08.17 19:41:00 - [50] So as someone that was in the CSM twice I think I can provide some useful information. A lot of what you learn in the CSM is about changes in the Eve that "might happen someday" but even if they do they will be far off and quite difference once they are implemented. Once in a while there is notice of a more immediate change like the one that got a CSM booted for "inside trading" but taking advantage of those sorts of things would be short term at best and risk ejection from the CSM. Where in theory you might have an advantage is shaping CCP's thinking in the long term to fit your play style, but even that is a long shot. There might actually be a disadvantage to being a CSM, that is that you are under constant scrutiny by CCP to make sure you aren't involved in using your information to gain an advantage or that you aren't involved in activities that would embarass CCP if they were discovered (BOTing/RMT for example). The CSM is also very time consuming so you definitely earn those trips to Iceland and those Nonni subs! If you believe there is an advantage then I suggest you run and see for yourself! Issler

Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 19:59:00 - [51] Originally by: Feligast Points 1 and 4 are completely contradictory, therefore I can obviously safely ignore you. You don't know what a contradiction is, so I can safely ignore you. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Trebor Daehdoow	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:03:00 - [52] Speaking from personal experience, being on CSM often constrains your freedom to exploit public information, out of concern that it might appear you are acting on inside information. In other words, CCP has publicly said X, and CSM knows X+Y. Just knowing X, a smart person could deduce that stockpiling A would be a good idea. Knowing X+Y makes it even more likely it's a smart move. So now I can't buy A, because that might be perceived as insider trading. Being on CSM has certainly cost me a billion here and a billion there... feel free to send me some ISK ingame to make it up to me.
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:08:00 - [53] Originally by: Issler Dainze So as someone that was in the CSM twice I think I can provide some useful information. A lot of what you learn in the CSM is about changes in the Eve that "might happen someday" but even if they do they will be far off and quite difference once they are implemented. Once in a while there is notice of a more immediate change like the one that got a CSM booted for "inside trading" but taking advantage of those sorts of things would be short term at best and risk ejection from the CSM..... I think this seems to be somewhat true. I mean for example with the release of dominion the ideas would have been large scale changes and it would be hard to anticipate what this would mean in a concrete way even if it were explained in detail. (which it probably wasn't) However the next expansion doesn't seem like one that will change the overall sov system, but instead just sort of balance and tweak it. The core system is in place and won't change. They will just nerf or buff or eliminate certain things within a known system. That is the sort of information that can give an advantage. Its unclear to me how much the devs have been communicating with csm about these changes. But I think the less the better and not at all is best. My view is let csm represent the players. Not have the csm be a select group of players that are given advantageous in game information with a scouts honor not to abuse it. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:11:00 - [54] Originally by: Cearain Originally by: Barakkus The csm has very little influence on what ccp ultimately decides to do, it's just a pr thing, really nothing more than a way to shut the whiners up when things get too loud. The issue is not that csm can sway ccp. (although since csm has such a limitted effect there isn't much to counterbalance giving certain players better information about future game mechanics) The problem is that they know more about what ccp is going to do and can plan accordingly. I was commenting on this part: Quote: @ the second quoted sentence: You know mittani explicitly said he isn't there to make the game better for all players, just those who elected him. Goons. Although I will agree Mittani is generally not to be trusted, I think I believe him on this. He has said numerous times he doesn't care about many different groups opinions. So I think you may misunderstand why people are running for csm. Mittani is about as useful for making eve better for goons as a wet paper bag would be. - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:12:00 - [55] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Speaking from personal experience, being on CSM often constrains your freedom to exploit public information, out of concern that it might appear you are acting on inside information. In other words, CCP has publicly said X, and CSM knows X+Y. Just knowing X, a smart person could deduce that stockpiling A would be a good idea. Knowing X+Y makes it even more likely it's a smart move. So now I can't buy A, because that might be perceived as insider trading. Being on CSM has certainly cost me a billion here and a billion there... feel free to send me some ISK ingame to make it up to me. What you say proves that CSM receives information that can greatly benefit them in game. You of course, claim that you have been honest and never abused that information. Whether or not I accept your claim is really irrelevant. I don't trust all the csm members as much as you. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:15:00 - [56] You do realize most MMOs have almost the exact same setup with a player focus group that CCP does with the CSM right? Except usually they don't make it a public thing and it's rather informal, but still covered by an NDA. - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:16:00 - [57] Originally by: Barakkus Originally by: Cearain Originally by: Barakkus The csm has very little influence on what ccp ultimately decides to do, it's just a pr thing, really nothing more than a way to shut the whiners up when things get too loud. The issue is not that csm can sway ccp. (although since csm has such a limitted effect there isn't much to counterbalance giving certain players better information about future game mechanics) The problem is that they know more about what ccp is going to do and can plan accordingly. I was commenting on this part: Quote: @ the second quoted sentence: You know mittani explicitly said he isn't there to make the game better for all players, just those who elected him. Goons. Although I will agree Mittani is generally not to be trusted, I think I believe him on this. He has said numerous times he doesn't care about many different groups opinions. So I think you may misunderstand why people are running for csm. Mittani is about as useful for making eve better for goons as a wet paper bag would be. Well if he knows what sorts of changes will happen in the winter null sec expansion, I would say he would be pretty valuable to any alliance. But I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:20:00 - [58] Originally by: Ryhss Originally by: Empy Ralt Since CCP's plans are vague and unlikely to happen anytime soon, and they will put out a blog long before anything actually happens, it's not much of an advantage. Sounds about right. Yeah except read Trebor's post that proves there are indeed opportunities for abuse. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:25:00 - [59] Edited by: Mendolus on 17/08/2011 20:28:48 Originally by: Barakkus You do realize most MMOs have almost the exact same setup with a player focus group that CCP does with the CSM right? Except usually they don't make it a public thing and it's rather informal, but still covered by an NDA. Think his rose-tinted glasses are interfering with his ability to realize almost every game developer has closed beta testing or interaction with past, present, or future subscribers in order to get player feedback on game content prior to it being released and certainly with the notion that said content may be altered based on feedback, all which is covered by an NDA that may or may not ever get lifted. But, I am sure he will argue this is not the case somehow. He seems bent on purporting that the CSM is an impossibly corrupt enterprise that cannot ever have redeeming value unless they use a system he personally finds legitimate and which guarantees corruption is impossible. I would like to have a system like this in real life, so if someone ever comes up with one, please let me know. Originally by: Cearain Originally by: Ryhss Originally by: Empy Ralt Since CCP's plans are vague and unlikely to happen anytime soon, and they will put out a blog long before anything actually happens, it's not much of an advantage. Sounds about right. Yeah except read Trebor's post that proves there are indeed opportunities for abuse. You are an exceptionally paranoid individual it seems. There are always to abuse the system, every system, every minute, of every day. Asking for a hundred percent guarantee that this will not happen is... uhm, rather naive. No offense intended, it just is.
Aemmaria	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:35:00 - [60] Originally by: Cearain What you say proves that CSM receives information that can greatly benefit them in game. You of course, claim that you have been honest and never abused that information. Whether or not I accept your claim is really irrelevant. I don't trust all the csm members as much as you. If I would you, I wouldn't feel nor bad nor exceptional. Paranoia is widespread enough disease.

Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:35:00 - [61] Edited by: Cearain on 17/08/2011 20:40:22 Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 17/08/2011 20:28:48 Originally by: Barakkus You do realize most MMOs have almost the exact same setup with a player focus group that CCP does with the CSM right? Except usually they don't make it a public thing and it's rather informal, but still covered by an NDA. Think his rose-tinted glasses are interfering with his ability to realize almost every game developer has closed beta testing or interaction with past, present, or future subscribers in order to get player feedback on game content prior to it being released and certainly with the notion that said content may be altered based on feedback, all which is covered by an NDA that may or may not ever get lifted. But, I am sure he will argue this is not the case somehow. He seems bent on purporting that the CSM is an impossibly corrupt enterprise that cannot ever have redeeming value unless they use a system he personally finds legitimate and which guarantees corruption is impossible. I would like to have a system like this in real life, so if someone ever comes up with one, please let me know. Originally by: Cearain Originally by: Ryhss Originally by: Empy Ralt Since CCP's plans are vague and unlikely to happen anytime soon, and they will put out a blog long before anything actually happens, it's not much of an advantage. Sounds about right. Yeah except read Trebor's post that proves there are indeed opportunities for abuse. You are an exceptionally paranoid individual it seems. There are always to abuse the system, every system, every minute, of every day. Asking for a hundred percent guarantee that this will not happen is... uhm, rather naive. No offense intended, it just is. There is a difference between asking a set of players what they think about this or that idea, and telling them what will or won't be included in the next expansion. The difference is one is asking questions the other is giving information. CCP can ask players about all sorts of things. I don't have any issue with that. There is no need for a nda. And as far as my asking for 100% guarantee you keep ignoring my point. I am just suggesting that the advantages of giving csm nda type information (which no one has yet offered something csm accomplished thanks to getting nda info) do not outweigh the many negatives I list. E.g., likelyhood that that information will be abused, make the communication between csm and players more opaque etc. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Takita Yukida Quo Vadis Domine	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:50:00 - [62] Originally by: Cearain There is a difference between asking a set of players what they think about this or that idea, and telling them what will or won't be included in the next expansion. The difference is one is asking questions the other is giving information. CCP can ask players about all sorts of things. I don't have any issue with that. There is no need for a nda. I think you are just infected with a bitter outsider syndrome. Run up for elections if you want to be 'in'. In reference to the 'asking': The CSM is asked to present a players view on the upcoming eve features and the general direction more often than on past features. Of course you would have to tell them something about said future before getting an opinion, right? Originally by: Cearain Yeah except read Trebor's post that proves there are indeed opportunities for abuse. And yet they allow players to post on the forums, even though a small percentage of them will still abuse their posting rights despite the publically available forum rules. Does this mean noone should be allowed to post at all, just to prevent any possible abuse? Does a potential abuse, which is covered by RL binding NDA's immediately call for discontinuation of a program which otherwise produces valuable results? I guess you can and should agree on both! Being too afraid often makes the difference between implementing a good idea and missing the opportunity; being too pessimistic about something is never going to win you something.
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:50:00 - [63] Originally by: Cearain There is a difference between asking a set of players what they think about this or that idea, and telling them what will or won't be included in the next expansion. The difference is one is asking questions the other is giving information. CCP can ask players about all sorts of things. I don't have any issue with that. There is no need for a nda. And as far as my asking for 100% guarantee you keep ignoring my point. I am just suggesting that the advantages of giving csm nda type information (which no one has yet offered something csm accomplished thanks to getting nda info) do not outweigh the many negatives I list. E.g., likelyhood that that information will be abused, make the communication between csm and players more opaque etc. I assume you've never been in a closed beta before for an MMO. There's a buttload you get to find out well in advance of even the regular beta testers that come in later on. I ended up getting in on every EverQuest 2 expansion up until the last two they put out, well before the regular beta test crowd gets in. Lots of NDA stuff to deal with, and usually 6 or 7 months in advance of release date. It's common practice...CCP probably keep a better eye on their NDA people than most companies do. There is very little to be concerned with about the CSM or whatever as a player honestly. It's not like this is secret stuff that will never hit the game like some secret government weapon or whatever... - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.17 20:54:00 - [64] Originally by: Aemmaria Originally by: Cearain What you say proves that CSM receives information that can greatly benefit them in game. You of course, claim that you have been honest and never abused that information. Whether or not I accept your claim is really irrelevant. I don't trust all the csm members as much as you. If I would you, I wouldn't feel nor bad nor exceptional. Paranoia is widespread enough disease. Anyone who is well read in world history knows that paranoia is the real killer. Need not go far to find evidence of people(s) who spread fear and misinformation for personal gain.
Trebor Daehdoow	Posted - 2011.08.17 21:24:00 - [65] Originally by: Cearain Yeah except read Trebor's post that proves there are indeed opportunities for abuse. Trust me, if I find out Mittens has broken the NDA, first I'll blackmail him, and then I'll rat him out. And I know he'd do the same to me. This is EVE, after all.
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 21:24:00 - [66] Originally by: Barakkus Originally by: Cearain There is a difference between asking a set of players what they think about this or that idea, and telling them what will or won't be included in the next expansion. The difference is one is asking questions the other is giving information. CCP can ask players about all sorts of things. I don't have any issue with that. There is no need for a nda. And as far as my asking for 100% guarantee you keep ignoring my point. I am just suggesting that the advantages of giving csm nda type information (which no one has yet offered something csm accomplished thanks to getting nda info) do not outweigh the many negatives I list. E.g., likelyhood that that information will be abused, make the communication between csm and players more opaque etc. I assume you've never been in a closed beta before for an MMO. There's a buttload you get to find out well in advance of even the regular beta testers that come in later on. I ended up getting in on every EverQuest 2 expansion up until the last two they put out, well before the regular beta test crowd gets in. Lots of NDA stuff to deal with, and usually 6 or 7 months in advance of release date. It's common practice...CCP probably keep a better eye on their NDA people than most companies do. There is very little to be concerned with about the CSM or whatever as a player honestly. It's not like this is secret stuff that will never hit the game like some secret government weapon or whatever... You probably do not know that most "NDA stuff" is not there to protect other players but to protect the game designers from having their game ripped off. It is these different purposes of the "NDA stuff" that you seem not to fully grasp. But anyway no one has taken issue with any of the actual points I raised. Just replies claiming its just my opinion and I must be paranoid because I don't trust certain people on csm. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.17 21:33:00 - [67] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Originally by: Cearain Yeah except read Trebor's post that proves there are indeed opportunities for abuse. Trust me, if I find out Mittens has broken the NDA, first I'll blackmail him, and then I'll rat him out. And I know he'd do the same to me. This is EVE, after all. Trust me if I find out I will report it too. Of course, we have no chance of finding that out. So our assurances are meaningless. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Yseri	Posted - 2011.08.17 22:05:00 - [68] Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Speaking from personal experience, being on CSM often constrains your freedom to exploit public information, out of concern that it might appear you are acting on inside information. In other words, CCP has publicly said X, and CSM knows X+Y. Just knowing X, a smart person could deduce that stockpiling A would be a good idea. Knowing X+Y makes it even more likely it's a smart move. So now I can't buy A, because that might be perceived as insider trading. Being on CSM has certainly cost me a billion here and a billion there... feel free to send me some ISK ingame to make it up to me. That's fine, but nothing stops you from having dozens of alts earning much more on insider info. While I couldn't care less about all this, since I'm a solo player with no interest in nullsec and alliances, from my perspective the CSM doesn't bring anything to the table. They act on behalf of alliances that elected them, which is obviously to be expected, and normal players don't benefit from CSM at all - actually alliances acting on insider knowledge can only affect normal players negatively, for example by manipulating the market. Believing that people with knowledge worth a lot wouldn't use that knowledge is just childish naivity, and in my eyes having CSM as a risk factor outweighs positive sides (of which I personally see none). But of course the ones benefiting, like alliance leaders and members, would strongly disagree.
Diomedes Calypso Aetolian Armada	Posted - 2011.08.17 22:19:00 - [69] Even if your premise were true, (and I don't believe it is), EVE is all about inequality and it's design has always attempted to give players choices in what they can do, give low tier , low skill ship/players meaningfull roles they can play in struggles against players who've have far more skills and game wealth etc. "meaningful" not equal. The goal here is to have fun. You need a challenge to have fun, not equal odds in carefully designed fights. Fun.. its a sandbox, the struggle is going to be what you look back on.
Schani Kratnorr x13 Raiden.	Posted - 2011.08.17 22:20:00 - [70] The current CSM is invalid as the election result was heavily influenced by allowing trials and re-activation accounts vote. Once CCP buckles and nerf end-game PvP people will finally realize it is time to move on... then I will be all alone in my spaceship and declare myself winner of EVE before moving on to Chess or Tennis.

KaarBaak Minmatar Seatec Astronomy	Posted - 2011.08.17 23:05:00 - [71] Originally by: Cearain But anyway no one has taken issue with any of the actual points I raised. Just replies claiming its just my opinion and I must be paranoid because I don't trust certain people on csm. Just because everyone thinks you're paranoid, doesn't mean you're not. . He who breaks the law shall be punished back to the House of Pain. -- Sayer of the Law
Zirise Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.08.18 01:02:00 - [72] OP is jealous of the current CSM c/d?
Dub Step Minmatar Death To Everyone But Us	Posted - 2011.08.18 01:06:00 - [73] I am an ex-CSM member, alt posting obviously. I would like to point out I profited by at least 1.4 trillion isk from insider information thanks to my involvement with the CSM. Cry more noobs, what else would you expect.
Zirise Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.08.18 01:14:00 - [74] Originally by: Dub Step I am an ex-CSM member, alt posting obviously. I would like to point out I profited by at least 1.4 trillion isk from insider information thanks to my involvement with the CSM. Cry more noobs, what else would you expect. I too like to make unprovable claims to validate arguments.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.18 01:36:00 - [75] Originally by: Zirise Originally by: Dub Step I am an ex-CSM member, alt posting obviously. I would like to point out I profited by at least 1.4 trillion isk from insider information thanks to my involvement with the CSM. Cry more noobs, what else would you expect. I too like to make unprovable claims to validate arguments. This.
Cearain Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION	Posted - 2011.08.18 03:52:00 - [76] Originally by: KaarBaak Originally by: Cearain But anyway no one has taken issue with any of the actual points I raised. Just replies claiming its just my opinion and I must be paranoid because I don't trust certain people on csm. Just because everyone thinks you're paranoid, doesn't mean you're not. Most people posting are not claiming I am paranoid. Of the posters who do not share my concern the views seem to be: Some say I'm jealous that others get to do insider trading. Others say I should run so I can do the insider trading myself. Others say thats life - lots of things are unfair. But very few are saying they have faith that all the csm members aren't abusing this information and calling me paranoid for thinking it may be happening. In fact when xhaggen took that line many posters thought he was a bit nanve. -Cearain Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1
Judge Ment BOOM BOOM POW	Posted - 2011.08.18 03:54:00 - [77] I dislike what I can not understand... why doesnt CCP understand me? CSM ------------------------------------- We judge others by actions We judge ourselves by intentions.
Dub Step Minmatar Death To Everyone But Us	Posted - 2011.08.18 08:41:00 - [78] Originally by: Zirise Originally by: Dub Step I am an ex-CSM member, alt posting obviously. I would like to point out I profited by at least 1.4 trillion isk from insider information thanks to my involvement with the CSM. Cry more noobs, what else would you expect. I too like to make unprovable claims to validate arguments. Where in my post was I trying to validate an argument? I was just providing information.

CCP Xhagen	Posted - 2011.08.18 09:11:00 - [79] Originally by: Dub Step While we have someone from CCP's attention I would like to know why ankesentapemkahwhatshername was kicked from the CSM. Information was given about Adam Ridgway / Larkonis and it would be interesting to know. I appreciate Larkonis was open about this himself while we have heard nothing from Ankesenta... although I assume she quit. I cannot give out any information about Ankhesentapemkah. ____________________________ CSM Project Manager EVE Online CCP Games

Dub Step Minmatar Death To Everyone But Us	Posted - 2011.08.18 09:21:00 - [80] Originally by: CCP Xhagen Originally by: Dub Step While we have someone from CCP's attention I would like to know why ankesentapemkahwhatshername was kicked from the CSM. Information was given about Adam Ridgway / Larkonis and it would be interesting to know. I appreciate Larkonis was open about this himself while we have heard nothing from Ankesenta... although I assume she quit. I cannot give out any information about Ankhesentapemkah. BOO! Actually, I suspected this would be the case. Thanks for the reply anyway.


CCP Xhagen	Posted - 2011.08.18 09:53:00 - [81] Originally by: Cearain You make it sound like CCP is completely immune to logic. What I want is for CCP to consider what benefit they receive from csm by giving them an unfair advantage. You can still have a csm that would recomend fixing rockets and adding the training q without giving them the unfair advantage of nda information over other players. You are correct here. We very well could have a CSM without giving them any information. But their abilities to convey appropriate suggestions at the appropriate time is severely diminished if they don't have a context to work in. The CSM you are suggesting here was how were things from CSM1 to CSM4. The CSM has now moved to being a proactive body rather than a reactive body. They are a stakeholder in the development process - and although they do reviews after the fact as well, their strengths are better utilized to prevent issues rather than pointing them out afterwards (I hope this makes sense). Originally by: Cearain The points I have made remain undisputed: 1)CSM can't possibly know what players think about nda material because the players haven't even heard of it let alone commented on it. So csm won't represent players with respect to that anyway. 2)Players can't make educated choices about who will be on csm because so much of the discussion lately seems to be over nda material. So the elections which are already a joke are even more problematic. 3) The chair of the csm has said the exact opposite of what CCP Xhaggen claimed for a reason people run for csm. So CCP is obviously unable to correctly guage what is going on. 4) In all the time that csm has had access to this nda material not one example of a benefit to the game has been raised. The claims to fame as to what csm has accomplished have almost always been things that players knew about and wanted changed. Training q. Rockets etc. 5) It would be very very hard to detect if nda information is being abused by the players on the csm. 6) I and several others think CCP Xhaggen is crazy to claim they don't think anyone is on csm for personal gain. Since the NDA is almost impossible to police its all just scouts honor. My hunch would be nda info is being abused which is a real detriment to the game. I agree that you have made these points but it appears to me that you are both underestimating and overestimating both the general player (yourself included) and the CSM. You overestimate the CSM in their intention to gain from being on the CSM (I'll come to the quote you reference from the Mittani) and you underestimate the cleverness of the general player. CCP is often reminded of just how clever EVE players can be and their abilities to anticipate changes and game the system is often wonderful to see. I fully realize that the above clause, i.e. gaming the system, has to be applied to the CSM as well - that is why we have the NDA. Furthermore, the trust I mentioned earlier is something that the CSM and CCP respect which further enforces the honesty of the CSM members. If the CSM wants NDA information they have to uphold the NDA. If they release NDA information or abuse it, they stop receiving it. So it is in their interest to uphold the NDA and not abusing information. The Mittani won't be gagged or prevented from stating what he wants (barring NDA material) just because he is on the CSM. Of course he will focus on 0.0 gameplay as that is the game he plays. But being in 0.0 does not mean that you can ignore new players or mission runners - judging from what he has said in the meetings he fully realizes that. Originally by: Cearain In the end there is no reason to take risks with the integrity of the game by giving certain players advantageous information that the others do not have. I think this is a case of "we have to agree on disagreeing". We are running the CSM as we see it as beneficial to EVE. It is perfectly alright to disagree with that. P.S. Are you intentionally misspelling my name? ____________________________ CSM Project Manager EVE Online CCP Games


CCP Xhagen	Posted - 2011.08.18 09:55:00 - [82] Originally by: Dub Step Edited by: Dub Step on 18/08/2011 09:23:24 Originally by: Zirise Originally by: Dub Step I am an ex-CSM member, alt posting obviously. I would like to point out I profited by at least 1.4 trillion isk from insider information thanks to my involvement with the CSM. Cry more noobs, what else would you expect. I too like to make unprovable claims to validate arguments. Where in my post was I trying to validate an argument? I was just ~~providing information~~ trolling. EDIT: Apologies for being an idiot. I hate trolls with a passion so it's a bit hypocritical of me to be lying and winding people up. Heh, I was going to reply to your first post with "Cool story bro". I'll rate your trolling at 1/10 - practice and you'll get better ____________________________ CSM Project Manager EVE Online CCP Games

Dub Step Minmatar Death To Everyone But Us	Posted - 2011.08.18 10:21:00 - [83] Originally by: CCP Xhagen Heh, I was going to reply to your first post with "Cool story bro". I'll rate your trolling at 1/10 - practice and you'll get better Ahaha, cool story bro
Cortante	Posted - 2011.08.18 13:39:00 - [84] Edited by: Cortante on 18/08/2011 13:40:41 Why do you think CSM members are almost always from large null-sec alliances? And why do you think alliances try to get multiple people on the CSM? 1. Get on CSM 2. Find out what ships are getting buffed, nerfed, and to what extent. What moon mining materials are going to be made more rare. 3. Get on instant messenger with a throw-away IM name, message friend in your alliance the details. Knowing what ships and materials are going to gain and lose value is used by the alliance to create an advantage for themselves. 4. There is zero chance of you being caught. NDA's are unenforceable, a meaningless piece of paper developed to assuage the fears of the common EVE player. CCP knows they have no ability to police CSM members using information to the advantage of their goals in EVE. CCP does not care that having the CSM creates an uneven playing field. It's too useful as cheap PR, after all. If you think this isn't the sole reason most of the CSM want to be on the CSM, then I've got a Megathron Navy Issue to sell you for cheap. The CSM does not represent the players, it represents the interests of large alliances who want an unfair advantage by receiving peeks into future game development. EVE players will always cheat when you give them the opportunity. CSM is a joke.
Mendolus Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations	Posted - 2011.08.18 14:33:00 - [85] Originally by: Cortante Edited by: Cortante on 18/08/2011 13:40:41 Why do you think CSM members are almost always from large null-sec alliances? And why do you think alliances try to get multiple people on the CSM? 1. Get on CSM 2. Find out what ships are getting buffed, nerfed, and to what extent. What moon mining materials are going to be made more rare. 3. Get on instant messenger with a throw-away IM name, message friend in your alliance the details. Knowing what ships and materials are going to gain and lose value is used by the alliance to create an advantage for themselves. 4. There is zero chance of you being caught. NDA's are unenforceable, a meaningless piece of paper developed to assuage the fears of the common EVE player. CCP knows they have no ability to police CSM members using information to the advantage of their goals in EVE. CCP does not care that having the CSM creates an uneven playing field. It's too useful as cheap PR, after all. If you think this isn't the sole reason most of the CSM want to be on the CSM, then I've got a Megathron Navy Issue to sell you for cheap. The CSM does not represent the players, it represents the interests of large alliances who want an unfair advantage by receiving peeks into future game development. EVE players will always cheat when you give them the opportunity. CSM is a joke. How sad your world must be, what a shame,
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.08.18 14:45:00 - [86] Originally by: Barakkus You do realize most MMOs have almost the exact same setup with a player focus group that CCP does with the CSM right? Except usually they don't make it a public thing and it's rather informal, but still covered by an NDA. Those are the people that killed Guild Wars. I see EvE moving in the exact same direction. Anet is over 3 years late on GW2 and PvP is a ghost town. You would think people would learn from history. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.


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