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Why can a frigate stop a battleship?

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S'Daria	Posted - 2005.03.10 12:37:00 - [1] Seems wierd that a frigate can web a battleship...shouldn't the mass of the ship have something to do with it?
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.03.10 12:38:00 - [2] Originally by: S'Daria Seems wierd that a frigate can web a battleship...shouldn't the mass of the ship have something to do with it? because ccp want to throw younger players a bone, would be a bit pointless if all engagements had to involve bs's. Death to the Galante
Grut	Posted - 2005.03.10 12:58:00 - [3] its all about game balance mmmkay having a fleet composed 100% of bs is really, really, REALLY boring their extremely slow to move and the odds of getting a couple of good fights a day are very low. The current bs mechanics mean their vunerable solo/in small groups which leads to them blobbing in large groups which again adds to the boredom factor. In order to balance this frigs/cruisers need to be overpowered as compared to price/rl. If you look at price rl you'd need arseloads of cruisers/frigs to take on a bs or do something usefull, if this was the case you wouldnt get 20 ppl jumping into their frigs to go suicide into the side a bs for its amusement, they'd get their own bs instead. The solution used to be that roughly 4-5 friggies would be a threat to a bs, but take a long time to do anything... this makes friggies nice for fast paced ops vs solo bs ie its interesting. For fleet, frigs dont do anywhere near enough damage to be useful so instead they tackle... warp scram/web the fleets target so it cant warpout in addition they intercept other friggies intent on scrambling their own fleets bs. Hence frigates can scramble/web bs to make the game more interesting. Unfortunatly the current balance is prettymuch anti frig. The kind of damage setups used in fleet currently means they dont have to scramble, as they take down their targets so fast. In addition the missile intercept thingy means the life expectancy of frigs in pvp is next to 0, combined with the ability of large turrets to bbq frigs given a bit of range you'll see most current fleets are composed of almost totally. Mostly harmless
DREAMWORKS	Posted - 2005.03.10 13:20:00 - [4] What other reason would you have to fly a frigate when frigate couldnt jam a battleship? I dont see what technology/computer engineering by jamming a ships propulsion has to do with mass? What the f* has mass to do with space? but im no rocket scientist, not been out there. __________________________ http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html
Heelay Ashrum	Posted - 2005.03.10 13:23:00 - [5] Once i suggested to introduce sized webber and scramblers and introduce more resistance ( to web and scrambling ) basicaly my suggestion was to introduce small scramblers ( -2 ) med scramblers ( -4 ) large scramblers ( -6 ) and to give: 1 warping strenght to frigates 3 warping strenght to cruisers 5 warping strenght to BS's this way a single frigate can scramble only a frigate, 2 frigates can scramble a cruiser and 3 frigates can scramble a BS, but i was litteraly "eaten alive". Seems that nobody feel strange that a small ship can stop a bigger ship as easy as a bigger ship, or that a BS have not some more effective warp ability. Imho it's not so odd immagine that engines that move a BS are stronger than a frigate. Maybe this way big corps will ask for nore noobs for pvp because more frigates will be needed in a fleet, but ai i told above this propasal had not many fans... ^_^
fras	Posted - 2005.03.10 13:26:00 - [6] frigates are suicide ships as it is, webbing and scrambling is the only thing that makes them useful. I wouldn't like to see them become less effective.
Grut	Posted - 2005.03.10 13:26:00 - [7] Edited by: Grut on 10/03/2005 13:27:06 Originally by: Heelay Ashrum Once i suggested to introduce sized webber and scramblers and introduce more resistance ( to web and scrambling ) basicaly my suggestion was to introduce small scramblers ( -2 ) med scramblers ( -4 ) large scramblers ( -6 ) and to give: 1 warping strenght to frigates 3 warping strenght to cruisers 5 warping strenght to BS's this way a single frigate can scramble only a frigate, 2 frigates can scramble a cruiser and 3 frigates can scramble a BS, but i was litteraly "eaten alive". Seems that nobody feel strange that a small ship can stop a bigger ship as easy as a bigger ship, or that a BS have not some more effective warp ability. Imho it's not so odd immagine that engines that move a BS are stronger than a frigate. Maybe this way big corps will ask for nore noobs for pvp because more frigates will be needed in a fleet, but ai i told above this propasal had not many fans... ^_^ erm DID YOU READ MY POST 3 frigs for scrambling.... guess what those 3 players will think hey why on earth are 3 of flying about getting owned by the big bad bs's just to put a scramble on it before we pop, how about we all just jump into bs's ourselfs hell we wont even have to scramble stuff before it pops IE THERES LESS POINT TO FRIGS THEN THERE IS NOW AND CURRENTLY THATS NOT MUCH NOONE WILL FLY THEM Mostly harmless
Feta Solamnia	Posted - 2005.03.10 13:30:00 - [8] frigs have a very special role atm, which is gooood. They are usually as essential as a bs is. So why hit the frigs with the nerfbat?
Rex Martell	Posted - 2005.03.10 13:47:00 - [9] How can a Frigate slow a BattleShip? "Reduces the maximum speed of a ship by employing micro energy streams which effectively entangle the target temporarily, thereby slowing it" How can s Frigate stop a BattleShip warping. "Disrupts the target ship's navigation computer which prevents it from warping." Not meaning to be smart about it, but thats how. "The object of war is not to die for your corp, but to make the other b@##@#d die for his"
Heelay Ashrum	Posted - 2005.03.10 13:57:00 - [10] Originally by: Grut Edited by: Grut on 10/03/2005 13:27:06 Originally by: Heelay Ashrum Once i suggested to introduce sized webber and scramblers and introduce more resistance ( to web and scrambling ) basicaly my suggestion was to introduce small scramblers ( -2 ) med scramblers ( -4 ) large scramblers ( -6 ) and to give: 1 warping strenght to frigates 3 warping strenght to cruisers 5 warping strenght to BS's this way a single frigate can scramble only a frigate, 2 frigates can scramble a cruiser and 3 frigates can scramble a BS, but i was litteraly "eaten alive". Seems that nobody feel strange that a small ship can stop a bigger ship as easy as a bigger ship, or that a BS have not some more effective warp ability. Imho it's not so odd immagine that engines that move a BS are stronger than a frigate. Maybe this way big corps will ask for nore noobs for pvp because more frigates will be needed in a fleet, but ai i told above this propasal had not many fans... ^_^ erm DID YOU READ MY POST 3 frigs for scrambling.... guess what those 3 players will think hey why on earth are 3 of flying about getting owned by the big bad bs's just to put a scramble on it before we pop, how about we all just jump into bs's ourselfs hell we wont even have to scramble stuff before it pops IE THERES LESS POINT TO FRIGS THEN THERE IS NOW AND CURRENTLY THATS NOT MUCH NOONE WILL FLY THEM If scramblers will be nerfed frigates should obviusly be more survivable versus a BS( almost untochable). I undersand your point, but i hope that also u saw gate camping with several BS and a single frigate/interceptor. The reason for this intie was only "lock and stop a BS", but 1 is enough to stop a BS for enough time. Reduce scrambling strenght for a frigate mean that more frigates ( or inties) are needed, and increasing base speed ( 2 or maybe also 3 times) will probably make impossible for a BS to kill them even if webbed or NOSS'ed, this way it will be fun also fliing a frig, and orbiting bigger ships so fast that a BS is ubable to do anything. This way a lot of frigates are needed in a fleet, and cruisers are needed because a BS cannot make anything on frigs because they are too fast. This way also cruisers find hes rule as BS escort and frigate killer. P.s) I have nothing against frig users, and it's obvius that they must have a role and some fun to using them, but i thing it can be found something more realistic than "a bee that stop an elephant".

Lallante	Posted - 2005.03.10 14:21:00 - [11] Originally by: Heelay Ashrum Originally by: Grut Edited by: Grut on 10/03/2005 13:27:06 Originally by: Heelay Ashrum Once i suggested to introduce sized webber and scramblers and introduce more resistance ( to web and scrambling ) basicaly my suggestion was to introduce small scramblers ( -2 ) med scramblers ( -4 ) large scramblers ( -6 ) and to give: 1 warping strenght to frigates 3 warping strenght to cruisers 5 warping strenght to BS's this way a single frigate can scramble only a frigate, 2 frigates can scramble a cruiser and 3 frigates can scramble a BS, but i was litteraly "eaten alive". Seems that nobody feel strange that a small ship can stop a bigger ship as easy as a bigger ship, or that a BS have not some more effective warp ability. Imho it's not so odd immagine that engines that move a BS are stronger than a frigate. Maybe this way big corps will ask for nore noobs for pvp because more frigates will be needed in a fleet, but ai i told above this propasal had not many fans... ^_^ erm DID YOU READ MY POST 3 frigs for scrambling.... guess what those 3 players will think hey why on earth are 3 of flying about getting owned by the big bad bs's just to put a scramble on it before we pop, how about we all just jump into bs's ourselfs hell we wont even have to scramble stuff before it pops IE THERES LESS POINT TO FRIGS THEN THERE IS NOW AND CURRENTLY THATS NOT MUCH NOONE WILL FLY THEM If scramblers will be nerfed frigates should obviusly be more survivable versus a BS( almost untochable). I undersand your point, but i hope that also u saw gate camping with several BS and a single frigate/interceptor. The reason for this intie was only "lock and stop a BS", but 1 is enough to stop a BS for enough time. Reduce scrambling strenght for a frigate mean that more frigates ( or inties) are needed, and increasing base speed ( 2 or maybe also 3 times) will probably make impossible for a BS to kill them even if webbed or NOSS'ed, this way it will be fun also fliing a frig, and orbiting bigger ships so fast that a BS is ubable to do anything. This way a lot of frigates are needed in a fleet, and cruisers are needed because a BS cannot make anything on frigs because they are too fast. This way also cruisers find hes rule as BS escort and frigate killer. P.s) I have nothing against frig users, and it's obvius that they must have a role and some fun to using them, but i thing it can be found something more realistic than "a bee that stop an elephant". Your understanding of PvP is minimal at best. Your change would ruin the game. Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2005.03.10 14:23:00 - [12] Edited by: Juan Andalusian on 10/03/2005 14:26:08 Originally by: Heelay Ashrum P.s) I have nothing against frig users, and it's obvius that they must have a role and some fun to using them, but i thing it can be found something more realistic than "a bee that stop an elephant". The "bee" is using the same sophisticated piece of equipment that the "elephant" is using to jam propulsion... It's not as if the frigates in eve have some sort of grappler arms that grab on the BS ass to hold it down. Nor are they using gigantic fishnets which the pilots hurl at the BS. We have techonology for a reason. That's why your mobile phone doesn't resemble a brick anymore, why your Video Camera isn't the size of a bazooka... with technology size is irrelevant as you can be small and efficient. I am sure General Tarkin wrote to George Lukas after his Death Star was destroyed by a single fighter to petition for a reimbursement. Pain is meant to be felt
Plague Black	Posted - 2005.03.10 14:30:00 - [13] I don't see the problem there. Its webing, and not 'massing' the ship. What is next complaint, why are there jumpgates since they are not realistic?
Heelay Ashrum	Posted - 2005.03.10 14:41:00 - [14] Originally by: Lallante Your understanding of PvP is minimal at best. Your change would ruin the game. May be yes, maybe not. Maybe is not this the right way to go, but still i find strange that a BS cannot have some more anti-scramble defence. Keeping apart all sort of flaming and cutting off this discussion ( i'm not so arrogant to think that "i know all"), ballance is realy more important than realism. If there is some other solution i hope CPP will consider it, if there is not any, patience. p.s) For who make "star wars" example. This movies with "laser sound" in deep space its not realy a good example of realism.
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2005.03.10 14:50:00 - [15] Originally by: Heelay Ashrum May be yes, maybe not. Maybe is not this the right way to go, but still i find strange that a BS cannot have some more anti-scramble defence. It has more anti scramble defence... it has more low slots hence more anti scramble strength. Quote: Keeping apart all sort of flaming and cutting off this discussion ( i'm not so arrogant to think that "i know all"), ballance is realy more important than realism. If there is some other solution i hope CPP will consider it, if there is not any, patience. Apart from being already balanced it's also quite realistic as i explained and you ignored. Quote: p.s) For who make "star wars" example. This movies with "laser sound" in deep space its not realy a good example of realism. While your bee vs elephant example was smack on. Pain is meant to be felt
Novarei	Posted - 2005.03.10 14:53:00 - [16] web a battleship... rofl +--------------------------------------------+
Heelay Ashrum	Posted - 2005.03.10 15:10:00 - [17] Originally by: Juan Andalusian It has more anti scramble defence... it has more low slots hence more anti scramble strength. A BS fitted for pvp (expecially for armour tanked ships) with 2-4 WCS ... ??? Yeah.. a realy good setup!
RicoLees	Posted - 2005.03.10 16:00:00 - [18] ok ok lets try this one and put the gun in me mouth while im at it. Fleets are comprised of multiple classes of ships fitted to suit certain roles are they not? BS = The big slow Punch Frigs = Fast recon and electronic warfair Cruisers = Frig fraggers If u take away the Frigs ability to do its job then y wud u need the Cruisers as there no point to fly a frig. Then if its only BS battles are fought on fleet size not tatics. If u want realism I wud keep the Frigs to there Fracking roles. sorry ehum.. There u have it my run down of a fleet <-> Roles Ill go to a quiet corner now and pull the trigger. Strength - To Server With Honor Honor - To Glory And Loyalty Loyalty - To My Friends Of Wisdom Wisdom - My Guide Through Life Life - My Judgement Of Strength
Ukiah	Posted - 2005.03.10 16:02:00 - [19] I haven't read this entire thread, but replying to the original question... It has nothing to do with ship mass. The webber/warp scrambler 'broadcasts' a signal that disrupts the ships propulsion system. Like sugar in a gas tank or cutting off the air intake on a jet engine or something. shrug
redfield	Posted - 2005.03.10 16:16:00 - [20] Description of statis webifier I "Reduces the maximum speed of a ship by employing micro energy streams which effectively entangle the target temporarily, thereby slowing it down." got nothing to with size. its all bout the module, dont changes this.

Hyey	Posted - 2005.03.10 16:22:00 - [21] Oh yea PLEASE SCREW with frigates more. AS it is now they are hard enough to survive in, please make them even more useless by having to use them in packs of 50. Sounds good huh? Scram and Web changes are VERY dodgy to change right now, I personally think they work fine. Webbers have nothing to do with mass mmkay? ~~ Hyey I just payed 15 dollars this month just to be able to respond on the forums... stupid cancellation error.
RicoLees	Posted - 2005.03.10 16:44:00 - [22] Y mess around anyway? It seems to me its balanced. As i sed u take away the Scrams and Webs to just get BS and I think sum one alreay sed this that 'going up against a fleet of BS is boring'? I think that wud be to true as newish players in there frigs have to run all the time cus there being craploadsa BS around. Strength - To Server With Honor Honor - To Glory And Loyalty Loyalty - To My Friends Of Wisdom Wisdom - My Guide Through Life Life - My Judgement Of Strength
xaioguai	Posted - 2005.03.10 18:49:00 - [23] Originally by: S'Daria Seems wierd that a frigate can web a battleship...shouldn't the mass of the ship have something to do with it? I webbed a ruin stargate in deadspace once with a wolf while waiting for my corpmate and it sucked all my caps in a blink of eyes. silly, i know I tested on other objected again, only use about 20% of my caps. so i guess mass does have something to do with web.
Minyon	Posted - 2005.03.10 18:55:00 - [24] Are you saying battleships need to be more over powered ?
Kusotarre	Posted - 2005.03.10 19:12:00 - [25] Quote: May be yes, maybe not. No. Just 'yes'.
El Yatta	Posted - 2005.03.10 19:56:00 - [26] Just look at the module stats, as two people have pointed out. Its got no "link" to the frig, its not a net. The idea is that its entangling it in energy strands, which can be effectively moored to warp-space, or to local gravity fields, or whatever sci-fi concept you imagine that fits with energy strings interacting with matter to stop it moving. ---:::---
Grut	Posted - 2005.03.10 23:27:00 - [27] Originally by: RicoLees Y mess around anyway? It seems to me its balanced. As i sed u take away the Scrams and Webs to just get BS and I think sum one alreay sed this that 'going up against a fleet of BS is boring'? I think that wud be to true as newish players in there frigs have to run all the time cus there being craploadsa BS around. its not about giving new players something to do. Take bob, a few months ago we had lots of vets who liked zooming about in frigs zooming about in frigs, by the same token we had had lots vets flying about in bs who liked piloting a big moon and blowing the crap out of other moon sized ships. Our fleets used to be 50/50 to 2/3 bs/support now their 95/5 bs/support all the frig guys have either been forced into bs as their frigs are now useless or left. Mostly harmless
Miner's Bane	Posted - 2005.03.10 23:58:00 - [28] Originally by: Juan Andalusian I am sure General Tarkin wrote to George Lukas after his Death Star was destroyed by a single fighter to petition for a reimbursement. Even when I dont agree with him, Juan's posts entertain me. (although in this case, hes right) ------------------------------------------------------------------
Hiccup	Posted - 2005.03.11 00:16:00 - [29] Totally thinking luke skywalker vs. deathstar here. Turbo-lasers just don't track an Xwing like they should ya know? BS needs a vulnerability to frigs.
Altai Saker	Posted - 2005.03.11 00:26:00 - [30] Whoever said frigs are an integral part in pvp is wrong... The game is about focus fire now, you get 5 tempests each on a bs and it insta dies... no need for frigates here...



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