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MoonDragn
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Posted - 2003.07.05 04:24:00 -
[61]
gwenyth the problem with energy weapons is that they use double the amount of energy that hybrids use. That means almsot always the energy weapon user will run out of energy before a proj or even hybrid user. The range doesn't matter if there are multiple targets. While the proj/hybrid still can load ammo, the energy user will need to wait for his cap to recharge.
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Ronyo Dae'Loki
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Posted - 2003.07.05 05:38:00 -
[62]
Excellent job, Hippey.
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My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants.
I <3 ( . Y . ) |
Darkcraft
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Posted - 2003.07.05 12:03:00 -
[63]
Booky i'm not not an idiot, i can see that both skills give 5% each, and so u can assume that 50% is gained from having both skills at level 5. However i wanted to know where Hippey got his information that having both skills at level 5 counteract the -50% range of hybrids.. because they does not. and hense my original question, where did he get his information from? is this what its meant to be / going to be? or are we stuck with 2 level 5 skills producing the effect of dropping ur ammo level by 2 from anti-matter to uranium.
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Thel Carsis
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Posted - 2003.07.05 12:10:00 -
[64]
Nice work Hippey! Interesting read.
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Avicenna
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Posted - 2003.07.05 12:23:00 -
[65]
I actually disagree with those who said that the projectile nerf was fair. This nerf changed so many things at once and it hit me from a couple of different angles.
First up let me say that AutoCannons are USELESS. Their optimum range is so low (even with no-penalty ammo) to render them useful in any way. You are much better off using a 250 scout or 280 scout on your cruiser rather than a an medium AC
Second, not only was ammo penalty enabled, but the penalty for certain ammo types was increased! CCP saw it fit to change the emp range penalty from -35 to -50%
Third, the change in ammo carrying capacity went too far. What was supposed to be a 75% reduction (from my reading of the advance patch notes) in 'meta' projectile guns (i.e. scouts), became a 97.5% reduction in some cases. Even the normal projectile guns did not escape this. The 650 artillery had its capacity reduced by 50%. Instead of using my time to plan my next move while fighting, i am constantly reloading ammo. This alone makes the projectile guns no longer 'usable' for me.
Some people have been arguing that projectiles were too strong and said that energy weapons paid the ultimate price for taking shots, and that was cap energy. Having made the switch to energy weapons after this patch (I no longer use projectiles), i found this to be completely untrue. With a certain set of skills i acquired and the setup i tuned, i can fire two heavy beam lasers and still GAIN cap energy, if i fire three it drains very slowly. I find that cap is a much cheaper price to pay than ammo.
So go ahead, flame away if you must but for me, projectiles are history. |
Tsaya
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Posted - 2003.07.05 12:26:00 -
[66]
To put it plain and simple:
Antimatter is NOT for long range, and no skill can or should change that.
The way range mali and boni add up (or better, multiply) wont change imho, cause thats the way everything stacks in eve.
If you want to use antimatter, face the consequences, and dont try to get out with some skills, cause you cant.
Its all about decisions and tactics, and thats good.
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StoreSlem
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Posted - 2003.07.05 22:46:00 -
[67]
Hippey I call you a hypocrite and liar. Read what you wrote before the patch.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=14519&page=1
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Dale Cussler
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Posted - 2003.07.05 23:04:00 -
[68]
Well, having the patch hit while I was in 0.0 space hurt a bit (considering I had 4 dual 150 railguns with AM ammo, which meant that I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn anymore), it was about time this got done really.
The problems faced were easily solved by equipping 2 blasters instead of 2 of the railguns, and switching over to Iridium charges, which give you less damage but a 10% range bonus.
Ergo: things still go *kaboom* real nice.
All the people that spent time *****ing and whining about it here, could've gotten some fresh ammo and equipment, and there wouldn't be a problem.
Then again, I guess that's not as much fun as *****ing...
/Dale |
Bentguru
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Posted - 2003.07.06 01:17:00 -
[69]
Avicenna: Optimal range does not matter much on close range weapons. Take the 3 Heavy Ion blasters loaded with AM ammo i have on my Maller, optimal range is about 1k. The thing is if you are able to get within 5k of your opponent either 1) your faster then him or 2) he wants 2 get up close and personal. Thus it's quite easy to get within or close enough to even VERY low optimal ranges for it not to make a difference.
and great job hippey
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Avicenna
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Posted - 2003.07.06 03:38:00 -
[70]
So basically Hippey talks about the advantages of lasers and hybrids, be it range or damage. Yet the only advantage projectiles have are that they use no cap. Sorry, thats not enough. You have to be able to hit the enemy (be it npc or pc) for this to count as an advantage. The fact of the matter is once you try to get to your optimum range, the awful tracking kicks in and screws you over
As for autocannons being useful. Try getting that close to a Ravager.
I am tired of other players saying "this is how it was supposed to be" and playing high and mighty when we are asked to completely change our playing style. Excuse me, but no one here has a clue about 'how it was supposed to be'. CCP drops these 'how it was supposed to be' bombshells through patch notes or dev blogs.
Why doesn't CCP give us a list of things in the game that will be changed to become "how it was supposed to be" so we don't waste our time and energy on useless skills? |
Azure Skyclad
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Posted - 2003.07.06 04:26:00 -
[71]
Ahhhhh. You see? There are folks in this game who notice stuff then put their brains in gear before opening their mouths.
You're a star sir. More power to you.
To the nay sayers and doom merchants? Be off with you!! : )
La Maison de tous Les Plaisirs
Star Fraction
http://www.voodoorockers.co.uk/ |
StoreSlem
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Posted - 2003.07.06 14:58:00 -
[72]
hippey/tomb wrote: [didnt get it]
Hybrid Railguns are still the best long range weapons at long range (many people have been complaining about them - but the BH [BugHunter] Team wanted to nerf them even more than I did), if a player wants to use Antimatter ammo with Railguns he should focus on training the Sharpshooter skill and also fly a Caldari ship. If a player has level 5 in sharpshooter and in Caldari ship skill, the -50% becomes 0%.
No, 1 x 0.5 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 0.78125
In other words still a 21% reduction.
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snotty
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Posted - 2003.07.06 16:20:00 -
[73]
i was thinking just the same, even with a 10% tracking enhancer and maxed skills you dont get to 100%... seems wrong to me
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Thano
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Posted - 2003.07.06 18:10:00 -
[74]
Hippy, again you come as the voice of reason. half the fun with eve for me is tweaking my loadout for diforant tasks and this patch makes that alot more fun and chalinging not to mention the fact that it makes you think alot more while in battle infact i lost my first cruiser due to a bad warp and poor loadout that and the fact that every pirate we killed was replaced by another shortly after it was distroyed but thats neither here nor there im just glad i get to have more fun tweaking more loadouts with all the new moduals and weapon and ammo stats put i think im going to work on a good hybrid loadout now that my maller whent *PooF*
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Presidio
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Posted - 2003.07.07 06:26:00 -
[75]
Hippey,
It seems that you haven't tried using projectiles you nerfed.
They're no match to any other type of weapon in the game when it comes to PvP.
It is true that they do most of the damage but the rate of fire and the accuracy nerfes makes them ineffective at any range. I have done tests at different ranges using different ammo and the DPS (damage per second) of long range projectiles is 5-20 times lower than the one fo the long range hybrids or lasers. And the argument that lasers and hybrids use more energy holds no watter because there is no way to improve projectiles and there are so many ways to increase the capacitor recharge.
Maybe if you tried fixing bugs before trying to nerf stuff this wouldn't be so bad.
With 20 rounds of ammo on a 650mm scout and with the loader jamming bug, there is no way you can be effective in PvP.
The tracking value of a 650 is so low that a Tracking Computer I which you have to spend days training skills to be able to use does not make any difference when mounted and activated.
However tracking computer works great for lasers and hybrids.
Oh another thing people that complimented your post are mostly non-minmatars.
I don't really care what you guys do next, I already moved to using lasers and I am happy, I just feel sorry for those who use projectiles, when I blast them in the name of weapon balancing :P
-
"Passivity is fatal to us. Our goal is to make the enemy passive."
Mao Tse-tung
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Grigori di'Corci
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Posted - 2003.07.07 07:55:00 -
[76]
Projectile weapons aren't quite that bad. Their damage over time is about a third of lasers and hybrids at "normal" range due to poor hit rate, bad tracking, tiny ammo capacity, and low rate of fire, but they don't use cap, so that justifies the drawbacks.
Anyway, if you are not happy with the tradeoff, you can always just stick to lasers and hybrids like the rest of us. =)
Grigori di'Corci
"Two leaps per chasm is fatal." --Chinese Proverb |
Arondos
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Posted - 2003.07.07 08:01:00 -
[77]
Yep pretty funny when I put on a tracking enhancer and my tracking rates don't even move. 1.0805% of a tracking rate that is nothing adds, yes you guessed it NOTHING. Make it 18% or even 1.8% and it MIGHT be useful.
1.0805% = 0.010805 x 0.0385(425mm AC tracking) = 0.0004159 OMG what a HUGE difference :)
To sum up projectiles now.
1. They use no cap
2. They don't hit worth a **** because the tracking rate SUCKS. Artillery is bearable but AC's need a HARD look.
COME ON an AUTOCANNON is desigend to sling lead. Fires once per second with decent skills but it can't track fast enough to hit anything?
0.0486245 for a tracking rate on an AC? With the mentioned gear and skills. Even with 0 range mod ammo optimal range is under 9k.
Using two 650mm scout artillery. I take down the shields on a 20k bounty beam using NPC pirate (Arch Reaver) stay outside 15k at my optimal range and not get hit. Start at 25k with the artillery using photon to knock down shields. Close so as the artillery runs dry on ammo I hit 8k range and open up with AC's (one 425 and one 220mm both scouts and using depleted uranium). Reload the artillery. The 425 runs dry and generally I am reloading it as the 220mm finshes the job. Two auto cannon can't even chew up 2/3 of the armor on one of these guys without needing to reload?
I've got
L5 gunnery
L4 Medium Proj Turret
L4 Motion prediction
L4 Rapid Firing
L4 Sharpshooter
L4 Small Proj Turret
L3 Surgical Strike
L3 Trajectory Analysis
And I need to reload 3 out of 4 guns to kill ONE 20k bounty pirate. I've tried various combo's, ranges, ammo types. It doesn't get better. If you put hard hitting ammo in the AC the range is so short they can't track fast enough to hit anything when you get into optimal range.
Not asking to be able to sling AC ammo from 20k away. BUT an autocannon should be a nasty in close weapon and to be that it needs to be able to track a target.
Edited by: Arondos on 07/07/2003 08:03:34
Life isn't fair and neither is Eve. Get over it. |
Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.07 12:40:00 -
[78]
I fly a stabber with projectiles. I went against a pirate in a Moa with rails. I had his shields down while mine were at 35% and that's when he jumped out.
So yes. I DO use projectiles. Yes I do think they're balanced. No, autocannons don't suck, but they're tougher to use no NPC pirates because it's usually never a 1on1, but a 1on4/5
Guys, all of you who are crying nerf realize a few things
1) Medium ARTILLERY guns were hitting frigates at point blank range. NOT RIGHT
2) Yes artilleries/railguns/beam weapons got a nerf, but they ALL got a nerf. Their relative balance is still pretty much the same. The artilleries had their RoF reduced but that was needed cause they were firing too fast.
3) Yes you do WAY less damage then you did 1077 and before. But EVERYONE is. So why complain? Combat lasts longer, good. Capacitors actually have a chance to drain since combat doesn't last 3 seconds, good. Energy managment therefore plays an important role, good. Frigates actually have time to get in close to a cruiser before being annihilated in 2 shots at 35km out, good.
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If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Saladin
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Posted - 2003.07.07 13:12:00 -
[79]
Presidio I agreed with everything you said and would like to add my voice to yours.
Having bad range, bad tracking, bad rof is too much of a penalty for just conserving cap.
I lost my bellicose on patch day. But on the bright side my guns weren't using any cap!
I even tried using those medium AC's up close like Hippey mentioned in his original post, at 1.5km they still couldn't hit the broadside of a barn!
Hippey I think we all understand that a nerf was needed to balance the weapons. But in this patch too many aspects of projectiles were nerfed at once. Some of them were nerfed in ways that were not announced, like EMP range penalty changing from -35% to -50% |
Rogue Noir
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Posted - 2003.07.07 13:36:00 -
[80]
You know why using no cap is such a big advantage? Well you see there are these thigs called MODUALS, and they use cap you dontcha know, so with projectiles using no cap, you can use your shield booster twice as much, or use EW more often or run a shield hardener for longer. People need to get over the image that guns are all there is too combat. Oh and before you start im not minmatar but I fly minmatar ships and use projectiles.
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Shady trader, fence and gentleman extrordionaire.
Noir Enterprises Site |
Kaelor
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Posted - 2003.07.07 14:44:00 -
[81]
Umm...energy weaps draining cap more so than hybrids..true... but there are many, many ways around it. From simple 25% recharge boost modules, to skills to boost recharge rates. When using energy weaps the single most important thing is the recharge rate. If you have the time sufficently low enough you will never have a cap problem again..unless of course you are trying to attack 4 30K cruisers from close range
I have always used heavy beams on my rupt and have *never* had capacitor problems..it simply all depends on your setup. IMO the abilty to change ammo quickly, the ability to never run out, makes for me lasers the best choice for deep space hunting...but hey we all got our preferences
:)
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Daan
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Posted - 2003.07.27 21:50:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Daan on 27/07/2003 21:52:34
1st off; great post hippey,
2nd; why are ppl always talking about guns, guns and guns when it comes to battle? there are other mods available that can be used you know ;)
projectiles deal out 3 types of damage, where hybrids do 2, that way its easier to fit shield hardeners for someone facing hybrids than forsomeone that is facing an opponent with projectiles, etc
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Crimsonjade
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Posted - 2003.07.27 21:52:00 -
[83]
'Cept for the fact that you do not need a shield hardener when fighting those who use projectile weapons ; )
No pain, no palm; no thorns, no throne; no gall, no glory; no cross, no crown.
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Daan
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Posted - 2003.07.27 21:54:00 -
[84]
explain?
web the guy, use abs to get closer...
THINK?
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Jame
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Posted - 2003.07.27 22:02:00 -
[85]
nice post, thanks, dude
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Jovni
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Posted - 2003.12.23 03:40:00 -
[86]
a
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