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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.03 14:29:00 -
[1]
I am writing this in hopes of quiting all the "GUNS WERE NERFED, WAAAH" and "DUAL 425 SCOUT DON'T EXIST ANYMORE AND WHAT WAS A DUAL 425 HAS BEEN NERFED AND SUCKS"
See, don't blame CCP. I called for all these nerfs. Yup me, blame me. Come on, you want to.
See, I found it odd that the Dual 425 Scout had better tracking then a SMALL howitzer. See to me that was odd. I also found it odd that the D425 scout was hitting an orbitting frigate at 500m. Medium gun, having no trouble hitting a frigate.
I found that odd too. But hey, you guys are right, it's a TOTALLY unneccesary nerf and WASN'T needed at all, so like I said blame me.
Oh and, I also found it odd that one small projectile was the king of ALL small (D150 scout) and one medium projectile (d425 scout) was the king of mediums. I mean autocannons were pointless, howitzers were pointless. See I found that odd too. Why should a long range, heavy damage gun be good as point blank range?
But hey you're right, it's an unneccesary nerf, game was TOTALLY balanced before, Frigates had a HUGE chance against cruisers and now it all sucks and is my fault. Blame me.
Oh, but just for the record before I waste mine and TomB's time on many ingrates here, I'd like to say that the D425 scout wasn't REMOVED. It was renamed so that you know what version of the market gun it's better of. Since it's the better versoin of the 650mm Artillery, it makes sense for it to be called 650mm Scout Artillery. Howitzers is now the 720mm Scout Howitzer. But hey, all it took was a click to Patch Review to see this change, or actualyl reading PATCH NOTES, but you know, it's easier to start threads and have some cheese and whine.
But here you go. and remember, these are NERFS, not fixes, and BLAME ME cause I suck and I wanted balance.
I would like to thank TomB, who was a gracious dev and answered these questions to me in IRC just because I asked him to. Oooooh what a concept. The first part are his words and the "LESSON" part is addendum by me to help put into perspective even more what the guns are good for and why they are balanced.
Hybrid Railguns are still the best long range weapons at long range (many people have been complaining about them - but the BH [BugHunter] Team wanted to nerf them even more than I did), if a player wants to use Antimatter ammo with Railguns he should focus on training the Sharpshooter skill and also fly a Caldari ship. If a player has level 5 in sharpshooter and in Caldari ship skill, the -50% becomes 0%.
Lesson: You can't have massive damage and massive range. It's one or the other. Up to you to decide what you want your optimal range to be and set up your guns and ammo for that purpose.
Hybrid Blasters can deal the most damage at close range, and since the range modification of ammo does not affect these guns as much as railguns, players can use the high damage ammo. Gallente of course would be best at using hybrid blasters because of 5% damage bonus for hybrid weapons, blasters shoot extremely fast and have very high tracking speed, so if a player gets into close range there is almost no way of beating him.
Lesson: Ultimate in short range, but there's a price to pay. It uses cap. However, toe-to-toe, no one can match your damage over time output.
Projectile AutoCannons have the highest tracking speed in game, they don't have as powerful cannons as hybrid blasters or energy pulse weapons since they don't use any capacitor. They are more useful to use as a side weapon to artillery cannons.
Lesson: Obviously, minmatar frigates gain the most from these with their increase to damage as a ship bonus. Setting these or any short range guns for long-range is just suicide. Use what it's good for, and use it well.
Projectile artilleries still deal the most damage of all longer range turrets, but they are very inaccurate at close range and some projectile artilliers had incorrect speed value which was a fix and not a nerf. They are not at accurate at long range as railguns but can deal more damage and use no capacitor.
Lesson: Projectile Artillery hits for more, but less often then railguns. Railguns have a much bigger range in which they can hit more often then projectiles, so while if both projectile and railgun land a good shot, the projectile will be for more damage, the railguns will be landing far MORE due to bigger optimal range and better RoF and therefore have the bigger Damage over Time {DoT}. Also remember that the fact that Railguns have better tracking then projectile means that the Railgun can keep hitting even when the targets pretty close, while a projectile will start missing far sooner
Edited by: Hippey on 03/07/2003 14:33:24
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.03 14:33:00 -
[2]
Howitzers are long range artilleries, best combat tactic with them would be to have a few of them in the back firing at same target if they all get good shots, target is dead. These are THE longest range weapons in the game.
Lesson: Massive damage, massive range, horrible tracking and horrific rate of fire, heavy fitting requirements.
do NOT use EMP ammo with Howitzers, unless you like to gimp yourself silly or have REALLY good skills.
Energy Pulse weapons are best used at close/medium range, they are ideal for combat with players using either both blasters/railguns or autocannons/artilleries. Pulse weapons do drain alot of energy and a player that wants to expertize in energy weapons has to master the Controlled Burst skill and consider flying in Amarr ships that use less capacitor for energy weapons.
Lesson: Remember, lasers have the added benefit of NEVER having to reload and being able to switch crystals on the fly to better suit the current battle conditions, ie. they're guns are suited for wider aray of combat scenarios, whereas projectile and hybrids have to specialize in one or two types and will LOSE if the combat situation is outside of what they're ready to deal with.
Energy Beam weapons are the next to railguns at their optimal range, they have a slight better tracking speed but use alot more capacitor in usage. The same goes with beam lasers as pulse lasers, people have to have correct skills and equipment; ship/modules in order to use them for best results.
Lesson: Again same thing applies. Beam weapons don't ever have to reload and can change crystals on the fly (not wait 10 seconds like the projectle/hybrid users have to). I think it goes without saying that you don't want to be using laser weapons on minmatar ships which have less cap then any other race.
Suit the gun for your style of play and your ship.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Jay Gatsby
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Posted - 2003.07.03 14:43:00 -
[3]
Damn you Hippey, you NERFER.
:o)
Actually, I've been really looking forward to this patch. Now maybe my Incursus with 3 Neutron Blasters will be worth something in a scrap.
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Stavros
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Posted - 2003.07.03 14:43:00 -
[4]
wow i wonder if anyone will actually read all that stuff, you are certainly err enthusiastic arent u. Full marks for effort anyway...
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Askari
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Posted - 2003.07.03 14:48:00 -
[5]
Thank you Hippey, that was a most informative read...
----------------
~= Askari =~
Urza's Factory
http://www.mikeward.uk.com/urzas
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Rhonstet
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Posted - 2003.07.03 14:54:00 -
[6]
You sir, are a good man. Thanks for the information.
The Monkeysphere |
Elereth
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Posted - 2003.07.03 14:59:00 -
[7]
Excellent post Hippey. :)
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ph34r t3h m0d t34m |
MitchKambers
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:02:00 -
[8]
Nice work.
A good bit of emphasis on how to form a fleet to handle all comers, rather than a single ship.
And as for Ammo, there must have been a lot of people out there that wondered why there were different types ;)
----
~] "You can spend life making plans, but life is what happens while you wait for plans to work." [~ |
Khaed Duhn
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:04:00 -
[9]
And the Lord sayeth unto the Hippey
"Good Work My Son"
And there was much rejoicing
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EvilT
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:12:00 -
[10]
well said Hipp, i agree on all points (i mean its hard to argue with common sense, really)
PS: Missiles will look definitely better now, no question about that. Although im not quite sure if they are stilll up to the turret standarts.
Edited by: EvilT on 03/07/2003 15:16:29
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Tinwhistle
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:12:00 -
[11]
Yo Hippey, VERY interesting read, and nicely put together. Saved me a lot of time comparing all the turret data myself. :p
I was looking forward to thhis patch in terms of balancing, and it seems very promising. Finally tactics will play a bigger part in fighting again - both in space and while fitting your ship. I can't wait to try a fast Rifter with Blasters against a cruiser with long-range weapons. *evilgrin*
Btw, anyone with experience in the area of missiles after the patch yet? Rumour had it that damage would be adjusted at least for the heavier types, making them more useful relative to the tuned-down damage potential of most turret weapons.
CYa,
Tinwhistle
Proudly flying the white skull on black!
Tinwhistle of the Caribbean League |
Lhyda Souljacker
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:33:00 -
[12]
Thanks Hippey,
I've been waiting for my full railgun loadout and controlled burst 4 to mean something.
See! Railguns are weak! 300 Damage from 30km away is lame! So is hitting 4 out of every 5 shots, and having a 4 sec ROF!
Riiigggght.
... That's when I reach for my revolver ... |
snotty
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:39:00 -
[13]
but, but, its his fault i can not instakill pirates any more.
gonne be fun now, was kind of getting bored fighting the "easy" pirates, now im going to need to learn combat again.
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Santini
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:48:00 -
[14]
Great post, informative as always. :)
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Riddari
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:52:00 -
[15]
And just a couple of days ago I recycled lots of pirate dropped railguns :p
¼©¼
a history |
The Reverend
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:53:00 -
[16]
Thanks for the post Hippey. I had just been looking for some posts on what had changed this time round. As I said in another post, I'll hold fire on what I think of the patch until I test it, but if all is as you say it is (and I have no doubt that it is) then it sounds a lot more hopeful than I originally thought.
m0ovie links |
Chai N'Dorr
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:55:00 -
[17]
stands on a bench and applauds loudly
Finally it start to look that my speedy frigates are going to stand a chance and do what they were meant to do with projectile weapons.
sigh Why, oh why do I have an appointment tonight? I wanna login and apply this patch!
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Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:57:00 -
[18]
*waves* hey hip! nice guide.
>>wow i wonder if anyone will actually read all that stuff, you are certainly err enthusiastic arent u. Full marks for effort anyway...<<
yeah, Stavr0s - don't read *any* of it. You don't need to know any of that stuff. Just keep doing whatever it is you're doing now, i'm sure it will all work fine... >;)
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:07:00 -
[19]
Railguns = underpowered
The power and cpu requirements are way too high for these guns. Sorry, do not agree with your happy nerf post in this area.
Good read on the rest.
Edited by: The Wretch on 03/07/2003 16:08:53
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Demangel
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:08:00 -
[20]
Hippey, I for one thank you and all the others who have been on the patch forums and testing for this patch (including myself to a limited degree).
I have yet to see ALL of the implemented changes in effect but all I can say is: WOWOWOWOWOWOW!!!!! If nerfs can do this much good for a game, I NEED MORE OF EM!!!!
Seriously though, I'm right here with yah man, excellent post, excellent points, and damn EVE just got about 10 times better!!!!
Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you
Demangel > Dude... I would call..
Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet.
Galaxion > Just a bit.
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Azhraell
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:10:00 -
[21]
We wubz0rz j00 hippey
_______
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Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:12:00 -
[22]
I agree with you wretch, i think rail guns should either do a little more damage, or there power grid should be reduced by like 10-15% But they still are "decent" weapons if you use the right ammo.
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Madcow
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:16:00 -
[23]
Yeah even lower pirate cruiser became more fun because they where abit harder to defeat.
______________________
I am just a crazy cow |
Digital Sin
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:17:00 -
[24]
excellent post. its so relieving to read something constructive hippey. :)
either way i am happy. range mods are in, the super ultra mega hyper damage mods are out, missiles do more damage, and i have a caldari raven lined up for me with six H50 launchers loaded with paradise missiles. :)
"To be content,to be comfortable, is to be complacent. No one learns anything from pleasure..pain on the other hand is a most efficient instructor" |
Milk
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:24:00 -
[25]
Darn Hippies. Get a job!
(well done really!)
________________________________________________
You know whats good for you.
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:25:00 -
[26]
Thank you for the nice comments everyone. Sorry for the, umm, intro on the first post. I AM a passionate bastard :(
Oh and for the people who still think the Hybrids suck compared to Projectiles please check this thread and look at Morkt Drak's reply. He was the earliest and strongest protestor that hybrids suck compared to projectiles. He tested it personally with TomB (what a great guy, eh?) and when he saw it in practice, he was convinced. You might be too. Give it a look
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=15586
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Von Wulfe
|
Posted - 2003.07.03 16:26:00 -
[27]
I had 4 650's installed and I new the patch was coming, so I tried it out on some gate pirates...
I have to say, I was getting smoked within 3k by an Incurses. The damn ship was too fast and tracking suxors :) Now I must find a Corp mate to target practice on with weapon loads...
I must say, this was a fine patch. I am glad to see it. Now equipment seems to be more in balance and one person won't be able to take on 6 heavy cruisers in a MOA, atleast for now.
Good show CCP, keep up the good work.
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Nightwing
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:34:00 -
[28]
Hippey, I read your dissertation about the test of hybrids vs 650 scouts on the test server and was very hopeful. I just tested ingame at 30K for pirates 3 prototype gauss vs 4 650 scouts and got the following which is really screwy.
If you would have tested your prototypes with almost ANY ammo vs the 650 scouts with EMP you would have lost. at 30K with EMP, the projectiles don't hit very often, but about 50% of mine were hitting for 50 damage. 1 out of 10 were hitting for 200+ and I had a 400+ crit. This is all at 30K. (with an extended test and timing it, I was killing Marauders 2x as fast with 4 650 scouts with EMP than I could with hybrid ammo that I was at the sweet spot. )
The reason behind this is the FALLOFF of the projectiles being so much larger than the hybrids. With decent ranged skills I was still within the first falloff range for the scouts. I also had a hit at 45KM with the 650 scouts and EMP for 200+ while firing an "Aggro" shot. I did not test this in full.
P.S. This was in a MOA that gets bonuses to hybrid and none to projectile.
P.P.S The fix for this is easy. The falloff for hybrid guns should be the same or longer than for projectiles.
Edited by: Nightwing on 03/07/2003 16:40:59
Edited by: Nightwing on 03/07/2003 16:46:36
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Achmed Twenty
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:39:00 -
[29]
great post hippey.
just my 2 cents ...
projectile autocannosn should do a bit more dmg or have a far better tracking speed (medium ones)
minmatar cruiser should get another bonus skill. adding speed to a crusier is plain useless. ill appriciate the projectile dmg bonus.
otherwise ... i like the new "fixes"
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Bedrock
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:56:00 -
[30]
Awesome read! Thanks hippy
/bookmarked
danny~!
----------------------------------------------
[apparent-dreams.com] |
Achmed Twenty
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Posted - 2003.07.03 17:41:00 -
[31]
wohoo! minmatar frigates have projectile turret speed bonus now! THX SO MUCH CCP :)
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Lhyda Souljacker
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Posted - 2003.07.03 18:14:00 -
[32]
They also reduced the activation energy from 17 to 15 on the 250 Protos and reduced the PG needs by 20. Not sure if this is blanket for all hybrids, but it is a nice bonus.
... That's when I reach for my revolver ... |
Forgan
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Posted - 2003.07.03 18:23:00 -
[33]
Thx. Nice post. Gave me lots to think about :)
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Mojack
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Posted - 2003.07.03 18:26:00 -
[34]
thanks a lot for all this usefull info.
now I feel really stupid :)
100 ISK donation for the guide (I Am totally broke)
-Mojack
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Fusco T
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Posted - 2003.07.03 19:04:00 -
[35]
Couple things:
First also keep in mind the magazine sizes. Hybrids are double that of most proj. Most of the proj guns we came to know and love have been reduced to 20 shots or .2 capacity.
The named hybrid drops were fixed (no more 800 rounds) most of these set to 40 or 80 for the really fast ones.
So in many cases dual 150 scouts (now 250 light scout artillery) with fast ROF will need to be reloaded after every battle. Possibly during a battle.
Second for the ones who still argue hybrids suck. Optimal IS king. Also the sharpshooter skill goes to optimal so hybrids get best benefit from this skill. It's counterpart Trajectory Analysis (prereq of gunnery 5) affects the falloff which goes to the proj primarily.
So as one can see hybrids on paper anyway should work to control the range game and keep opponent at optimal.
Last point which may also be a question is tracking speed. If I understand it right 6.28 rad a second would be a complete revolution per second, and that .005 of the 650's would take 1256 seconds to make a full revolution?
In my tests on chaos either I was getting lucky having my friend fly in front of gun or this may actually be a little off.
As an example let's say turrets by default point forward. I warp into an asteroid belt with 3 NPCs at my 12 and high. I turn my ship 180 degrees and begin locking. At this point my turrets start turning so they are facing behind (towards the enemy). My ship takes about 10 seconds to turn. So at this point the turrets have 180 deg or 3.14rad to go - time it took to turn my ship. (3.14 / .005)-10 = 618 seconds. This doesn't seem to be accurate in my testing on chaos. Or do I have it completely wrong?
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Misato Warwick
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Posted - 2003.07.03 19:04:00 -
[36]
thx for your time and sharing your "wisdom" with us hippey! *twothumbsup*
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Gwyneth Museveni
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Posted - 2003.07.03 19:15:00 -
[37]
Nightwing, you don't have to stay at 30k. We ran some PvP tests and projectile users can't hurt you nearly badly enough before you close to 20k and flat******him in seconds. Even if they manage to keep the range their ammo capacity has been cut down to almost nothing, and long range sniping attrition simply doesn't do enough to work in their favor when you figure in the reload time. Now projectile-armed cruisers stands no chance of winning against hybrid-armed cruisers, period, unless the hybrid captain is stupid. We were able to beat the best dropped artilleries with even store-bought railguns. =) That's the way it ought to be since projectiles don't use cap.
Projectile artilleries don't have a sweet spot anymore. They have worse tracking than railguns, and they can't hit the broad side of the barn inside their optimum range because of the low tracking speed. Also firing delay on artilleries were nerfed by 50%. Woo! Now projectile weapons just plain suck, which is commensurate with their huge advantage of using very little cap.
Besides, the Minmatar is supposed to be the underdogs with underpowered technology anyhow, and I don't think Minmatar underdoggedness is emphasised nearly enough in terms of game mechanics. I just hope all the bandwagoners don't start to all use hybrids again and get us nerfed next patch.
Overall I am very happy with this patch. Thank you CCP. =) Go Caldari!
-----------------------
Gwyneth Museveni
Rogue Mercenary Cyberneticist |
Splooshie
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Posted - 2003.07.03 19:37:00 -
[38]
One thing you forgot in the post was that Minmatar ships now get a 5% bonus to RoF on projectile weapons. Overall I'm very happy with these changes, focusing skills requires more thought and you can really make the different gun types shine if you use the right ship and train your skills up nice. Another thing to keep in mind is that the gallente dmg bonus lets you use rails with the lower end ammo while not giving up as much damage as other races, there by helping extend the range for the other hybrid race.
_____________________________
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MoonDragn
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Posted - 2003.07.03 20:45:00 -
[39]
Aye fine post, it clarified and verified certain things for me. I think right now the only problem is that pirates are still respawning way too quickly. It may not be hard to take down 3 pirate cruisers but to have to deal with the constant respawn will require weapons with better energy usage.
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Praetor
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Posted - 2003.07.03 23:14:00 -
[40]
Thanks for the info Hippey, and good work, keep it up.
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IZON
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Posted - 2003.07.03 23:32:00 -
[41]
M0o, eat cow dung and die! (told you 'it' wouldn't last) - now it's just a matter of time before nemsis comes stalking you :P (and my corp makes Vexors btw Zap).
"...master! there's a guy in the south village called IZON, he is a Ninja!" |
Mikka MacKern
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Posted - 2003.07.03 23:34:00 -
[42]
<<<<If you would have tested your prototypes with almost ANY ammo vs the 650 scouts with EMP you would have lost. at 30K with EMP, the projectiles don't hit very often, but about 50% of mine were hitting for 50 damage. 1 out of 10 were hitting for 200+ and I had a 400+ crit. This is all at 30K. (with an extended test and timing it, I was killing Marauders 2x as fast with 4 650 scouts with EMP than I could with hybrid ammo that I was at the sweet spot. )>>>>
Nightwing - nope, your theory is "wrong".
The reason is that all the hybrid user needs to do is get you into his "optimal" range - whereupon he will radically outdamage you.
Becasue the hybrid rail optimal is greater than that of the projectile - using the equivalent ammo type the rail will start to hit more consistently and for higher damage earlier than the projectile.
Obviously ammunition is key for the hybrid user, perhaps more so than for the hybrid. The other key for the railgun enthusiast is to maintain range from the target - the closer the combat the worse it gets for the railgun user and, up to a point, the better for projectile (until both cant hit a thing at very close ranges)
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Lola
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Posted - 2003.07.04 12:10:00 -
[43]
This is a post that's almost worth bookmarking.
-----------------------------------------
Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas. |
Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.04 12:26:00 -
[44]
Hmmm... does it need more **** to be bookmark worthy? It does, doesn't it? :(
<starts taking off his clothes>
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Ralimenua
|
Posted - 2003.07.04 12:35:00 -
[45]
I come not to praise TomB but to bury him... for Hippey is an honourable man.
:)
Nice post, and thanks for all your testing, Hippey.
--------------=o0O+O0o=--------------
Grand Vizier and General Factotum
Hazara Khan's Haphazard Bazaar
The Finest Camels in all EVE!
O0o=------------------+------------------=o0O |
GeoNoSiS
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Posted - 2003.07.04 13:33:00 -
[46]
after the patch... what ammodo you guys recomend for 250mm and 150mm dual hbrid? i¦m not good with all this technical stuff
-----------------------------------------------
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world |
StarWolfer
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Posted - 2003.07.04 13:48:00 -
[47]
I must say Hippey, impressive post with good and decent information... Especially because I'm no expert in all weapons, you sure summed it up perfectly for me... Thanx!
This post definitly deserves a sticky, but ah well, I don't have the power to do it :-P
Star.
Edited by: StarWolfer on 04/07/2003 13:48:50
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dalman
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Posted - 2003.07.04 13:55:00 -
[48]
For NPC-hunting:
3 250mm Gauss with Uranium ammo.
It deals good damage with optimal range 24km (with skills). Then one blaster or 150mm as backup if you warp in too close on the pirates.
Then it's still easy to take out 4 NPC-cruisers, just keep them at 20km.
If you don't have Gauss, just standard 250mm, you probably want to take 1 step down in ammo. The uranium is 18 damage and -25% optimal range.
Note that this was for NPC-hunting...
*edit* I would still say: STAY AWAY FROM THAT dual 150mm. It's a piece of junk. Even a standard 150mm is still better.
And the post was very good, although it was nothing more than common sence.
Edited by: dalman on 04/07/2003 13:58:21
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Tsaya
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Posted - 2003.07.04 16:03:00 -
[49]
To Nightwing and all who think rails are weak for pvp:
1. If you get inside the optimal range, around 20km, the damage per time of the rails far outperforms the projectile damage, even with 3 250mm rails compared to 4 650mm projectiles
2. If you manage to keep a hybridcruiser outside of the 20km, you cant scramble him, he can easily warp away.
P.S.: stasis webifiers are really worth a lot to keep your enemies at least at 10-15km, if you cant keep em at 20 ;)
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Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2003.07.04 16:18:00 -
[50]
Arty users post that Hybrids overpowered.
Rail users post that Proj overpowered.
balance achieved. :).
Seriously tho - if you wanna fly a minmatar ship, you're gonna have to work a little. When facing a railjockey, HAUL ASS. Don't snipe-slugfest with arty versus railguns - that would be stupid. it's like dueling with pistols at thirty paces, and using a flintlock vs. a Desert Eagle....
This is why minmatar ships have speed. The decisively faster and more manueverable ship determines the range and therefore controls what weapons are used.
If you don't have some fast-tracking backup weps on your cruiser, you're an idiot who deserves to die, and you will. When being sniped by something far more powerful than I, full-burning inwards at high speed and going crazy won the day. There is no "saving your ammo" in a Minmatar vessel. Saving it for WHAT? Your replacement ship? Fire missiles! Fire arty until you get too close to hit! Open up with AC, lasers, Blasters, whatever your short to med weps are. Maybe you wanna keep a slot for a badass smartbomb to clean out those pesky drone infestations, who knows.
Just remember - youre not SUPPOSED to be able to handle *every* possibility alone. Fill a role in a group. For arty, it's fire support, not frontline grappling. Getting outsniped by the Thorax with 5 rails? Send your rifter friends after it. Hell, even one rifter with ACs would annihilate that Thorax - literally run rings around it and blow it to hell.
And *his* mates are supposed to protect *him* from close threats...
so now combat's as complicated and interesting as it was supposed to be.
The problem is we no longer have "anyone can hit anything with anything," and yeah, we were spoiled. It's gonna take time to get over that is all.
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Lutetia
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Posted - 2003.07.04 17:38:00 -
[51]
I don't know much about the lessons you try to give.
But I understand the following:
1. 650 mm med arty is absolute crap now
2. 20 bullets in a 150 mm dual scout is simply a bad joke
3. 50% range reducing to shieldbreaker projektiles is simple (and only) insane
Maybe, you should go to school again, guy?
This patch wrecked minmatars advantages back to stoneage. To bad, I trained mostly those projektile skills.
I am looking forward for some corrections.
Otherwise, there are some highlevel Chars in other rpgs waiting to dust off.
|
Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2003.07.04 17:56:00 -
[52]
Lut,
You failed the lesson. Big damage or big range, not both, it's called a "tradeoff" and is the basis of all balance.
Getcher greedy mitts off the EMP for a second.. all those mag waves can't be good for you anyway - and take a look at this Photon shell.
The much-ignored "baby emp" ammo has the *same* damage spread as EMP - Mostly EM, some explosive, a little kinetic (and three damtypes! Versatility is good).
EM ammo has range of -50%.
Photon has range mod of +10%.
yes that's a PLUS. The idea is, always shoulda been, and always will be, that distance weps do less damage per shot. If you're far away you can potshot with ease. You ARE maintaining distance when using arty, right?
Train Rapid Firing.
Train your cruiser skill.
Train - uh - the range-enhancing skill.
You wanna specialize in sniping, you should be already. We just had it easy until now: arty barrage, boom, buhbye target.
The autocannons that you keep as backupo for close-range fighting should have EMP for chewing up anyone who thinks they're gonna close in on you.
But i've been using the photon in the 650 you just dismissed as worthless, and it works great. I also make sure to stay at 10-12km from the target.
If the target gets to 5-10km, i webify it and either run out more or use the medrange weapon i have mounted.
If anything zooms in - like heaven help me a Rifter - and i have NO chance of maintaing distance, i webify it (to make it easier to hit, not to try to maintain sniping distance) and chew it up with the autocannons. The fast-tracking ones, not mediums!
35-50 points per shot at 18km is not, in the current system, "useless." I mount two of the suckers and therefore do light missile damage with every shot, more when i get lucky.
As for ammo capacity - um, noticed that you don't use ANY cap when fighting yet? If you're running out of ammo in every fight, you are doing something wrong. So you have to reload during an extended fight - your opponent has to recharge, however. You can go crazy with modules while most peole have to watch their cap. So really, there's nothing to complain about.
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Darkcraft
|
Posted - 2003.07.04 18:04:00 -
[53]
"if a player wants to use Antimatter ammo with Railguns he should focus on training the Sharpshooter skill and also fly a Caldari ship. If a player has level 5 in sharpshooter and in Caldari ship skill, the -50% becomes 0%."
wrong.. it should do but it doesn't
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=16611
Edited by: Darkcraft on 04/07/2003 18:05:42
|
Paul Museveni
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Posted - 2003.07.04 18:12:00 -
[54]
Bad Harlequin says,
"Fire arty until you get too close to hit!"
Care to enlighten us on how you survived closing from 25k to "too close to hit" against a competent hybrid cruiser? Once you get within 25k the railguns will rip you apart in seconds. Hybrids don't just have better optimum range, they have superior long range ammo and faster firing rate/better DoT.
The pre-vs.-post patch hybrid-vs.-projectile, is like this: Hybrids have much longer optimum; projectiles have slightly better opt+falloff range.
Pre-Patch:
Guns do so much damage the fight is almost always over before ships get within opt range, so hybrid's superior opt range usually doesn't come into play during the decisive exchange. End result, the projectile cruiser usually wins by 30% if it didn't start out too close.
Post-Patch:
Guns don't do enough damage at opt+falloff range to decide the battle, so the decisive exchange doesn't happen until opt range. Even if the projectile's opt range damage over time was on par with hybrid's, which it isn't since it was nerfed to way below hybrid's, once you enter the hybrid's opt range at 25k, the hybrid starts to do serious damage and the fight is over in seconds. Unless you can find a hybrid captain dumb enough to let you webify/kite him at 30k through reloads and he fights to the death never run away when his armor gets low even though he has plenty of time to do so, the hybrid wins by a landslide in basically all "common" scenarios. Even if you by some miracle get to dogfight, neutrons will******autocannons hands down.
It's just another classic example of CCP turning a slight imbalance into a landslide imbalance by overcompensating. I'm loving my 250mm gauss right now, but I don't expect it to last too long. =)
|
EvilT
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Posted - 2003.07.04 18:43:00 -
[55]
Paul: i think thats why minmatar ships have suchs good speeds, so they can close in or stay out of range/optimal range - whichever they choose.
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Gwyneth Museveni
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Posted - 2003.07.04 21:48:00 -
[56]
"Unless you can find a hybrid captain dumb enough to let you webify/kite him at 30k"
Paul, 30k may be good enough for your silly Gallente Thorax+Anti-Matter, but most hybrid cruisers are well within optimum+falloff at 30k and will******a projectile cruiser at that range because how much CCP has nerfed the projectile's base damage over time. If you are up against my Caldari Moa+Thorium setup, that is within my optimum range and I'll light you up like a Christmas tree if you try to kite me at 30k. Caldari demonstrates its superiority over Gallente yet again. Want to do more testing tonight? =)
Let's not forget that the projectile weapons don't use any cap. Projectile cruiser should stand absolutely no chance against hybrid cruisers by right.
"i think thats why minmatar ships have suchs good speeds, so they can close in or stay out of range/optimal range - whichever they choose."
Anybody who has tried to dictate range or keep within a small range window with a small base speed margin can tell you how hard it is to match burner burst for burst with a PC kitee.
They can choose to stay way out, but if they choose to close in they die. At what range would the Minmatar scum choose to stay out at anyhow? Even without range mod modules installed I can load Tungsten and hit at 60km out with a Moa for much more damage than a Howitzer at that range, while cruiser artillery simply can't hit out that far period without outside help. If I load range mods I can out range any projectile gun+whatever range mod configuration simply because mod apply to optimum range and not falloff.
And that's the way it ought to be considering hybrids use both ammo and cap. It is SUPPOSED to be clearly the best weapons with its dual-drawbacks. The only complain about combat this patch I have is that energy weapon is still too strong for guns which don't use ammo. They also have the additional advantage of being able to change crystals without loading delay. They ought to be brought down to projectiles' power level by right, not breathing down the necks of hybrids like they do right now.
-----------------------
Gwyneth Museveni
Rogue Mercenary Cyberneticist |
Hippey
|
Posted - 2003.07.04 21:58:00 -
[57]
You smell Gwyneth. Like an Amarr.
>:)
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Mandos
|
Posted - 2003.07.04 22:52:00 -
[58]
Good stuff, Hippey.
-- Mandos
Polaris Forum Moderator and Bug Hunter
EVE Forum rules |
Darkcraft
|
Posted - 2003.07.05 00:18:00 -
[59]
Hippey where did u get this from?
"If a player has level 5 in sharpshooter and in Caldari ship skill, the -50% becomes 0%."
is that whats going to be implemented? as at the moment this is not the case.
|
Booky
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Posted - 2003.07.05 03:50:00 -
[60]
Darkcraft, you get 5% for sharpshooter and 5% for each lvl ship skill. You need lvl 5 sharpshooter, and lvl 5 in your ship class, ie cruiser.
Also, I hate to give tips, but rails and statis web at 18km, your toast. Now I jsut need to find a statis web that goes to 20km like the warp disruptor does :-)
Edited by: Booky on 05/07/2003 05:06:32
Spelling corrections welcome, but don't expect me to edit my post. |
MoonDragn
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Posted - 2003.07.05 04:24:00 -
[61]
gwenyth the problem with energy weapons is that they use double the amount of energy that hybrids use. That means almsot always the energy weapon user will run out of energy before a proj or even hybrid user. The range doesn't matter if there are multiple targets. While the proj/hybrid still can load ammo, the energy user will need to wait for his cap to recharge.
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Ronyo Dae'Loki
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Posted - 2003.07.05 05:38:00 -
[62]
Excellent job, Hippey.
-------------
My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants.
I <3 ( . Y . ) |
Darkcraft
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Posted - 2003.07.05 12:03:00 -
[63]
Booky i'm not not an idiot, i can see that both skills give 5% each, and so u can assume that 50% is gained from having both skills at level 5. However i wanted to know where Hippey got his information that having both skills at level 5 counteract the -50% range of hybrids.. because they does not. and hense my original question, where did he get his information from? is this what its meant to be / going to be? or are we stuck with 2 level 5 skills producing the effect of dropping ur ammo level by 2 from anti-matter to uranium.
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Thel Carsis
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Posted - 2003.07.05 12:10:00 -
[64]
Nice work Hippey! Interesting read.
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Avicenna
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Posted - 2003.07.05 12:23:00 -
[65]
I actually disagree with those who said that the projectile nerf was fair. This nerf changed so many things at once and it hit me from a couple of different angles.
First up let me say that AutoCannons are USELESS. Their optimum range is so low (even with no-penalty ammo) to render them useful in any way. You are much better off using a 250 scout or 280 scout on your cruiser rather than a an medium AC
Second, not only was ammo penalty enabled, but the penalty for certain ammo types was increased! CCP saw it fit to change the emp range penalty from -35 to -50%
Third, the change in ammo carrying capacity went too far. What was supposed to be a 75% reduction (from my reading of the advance patch notes) in 'meta' projectile guns (i.e. scouts), became a 97.5% reduction in some cases. Even the normal projectile guns did not escape this. The 650 artillery had its capacity reduced by 50%. Instead of using my time to plan my next move while fighting, i am constantly reloading ammo. This alone makes the projectile guns no longer 'usable' for me.
Some people have been arguing that projectiles were too strong and said that energy weapons paid the ultimate price for taking shots, and that was cap energy. Having made the switch to energy weapons after this patch (I no longer use projectiles), i found this to be completely untrue. With a certain set of skills i acquired and the setup i tuned, i can fire two heavy beam lasers and still GAIN cap energy, if i fire three it drains very slowly. I find that cap is a much cheaper price to pay than ammo.
So go ahead, flame away if you must but for me, projectiles are history. |
Tsaya
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Posted - 2003.07.05 12:26:00 -
[66]
To put it plain and simple:
Antimatter is NOT for long range, and no skill can or should change that.
The way range mali and boni add up (or better, multiply) wont change imho, cause thats the way everything stacks in eve.
If you want to use antimatter, face the consequences, and dont try to get out with some skills, cause you cant.
Its all about decisions and tactics, and thats good.
|
StoreSlem
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Posted - 2003.07.05 22:46:00 -
[67]
Hippey I call you a hypocrite and liar. Read what you wrote before the patch.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=14519&page=1
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Dale Cussler
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Posted - 2003.07.05 23:04:00 -
[68]
Well, having the patch hit while I was in 0.0 space hurt a bit (considering I had 4 dual 150 railguns with AM ammo, which meant that I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn anymore), it was about time this got done really.
The problems faced were easily solved by equipping 2 blasters instead of 2 of the railguns, and switching over to Iridium charges, which give you less damage but a 10% range bonus.
Ergo: things still go *kaboom* real nice.
All the people that spent time *****ing and whining about it here, could've gotten some fresh ammo and equipment, and there wouldn't be a problem.
Then again, I guess that's not as much fun as *****ing...
/Dale |
Bentguru
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Posted - 2003.07.06 01:17:00 -
[69]
Avicenna: Optimal range does not matter much on close range weapons. Take the 3 Heavy Ion blasters loaded with AM ammo i have on my Maller, optimal range is about 1k. The thing is if you are able to get within 5k of your opponent either 1) your faster then him or 2) he wants 2 get up close and personal. Thus it's quite easy to get within or close enough to even VERY low optimal ranges for it not to make a difference.
and great job hippey
|
Avicenna
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Posted - 2003.07.06 03:38:00 -
[70]
So basically Hippey talks about the advantages of lasers and hybrids, be it range or damage. Yet the only advantage projectiles have are that they use no cap. Sorry, thats not enough. You have to be able to hit the enemy (be it npc or pc) for this to count as an advantage. The fact of the matter is once you try to get to your optimum range, the awful tracking kicks in and screws you over
As for autocannons being useful. Try getting that close to a Ravager.
I am tired of other players saying "this is how it was supposed to be" and playing high and mighty when we are asked to completely change our playing style. Excuse me, but no one here has a clue about 'how it was supposed to be'. CCP drops these 'how it was supposed to be' bombshells through patch notes or dev blogs.
Why doesn't CCP give us a list of things in the game that will be changed to become "how it was supposed to be" so we don't waste our time and energy on useless skills? |
Azure Skyclad
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Posted - 2003.07.06 04:26:00 -
[71]
Ahhhhh. You see? There are folks in this game who notice stuff then put their brains in gear before opening their mouths.
You're a star sir. More power to you.
To the nay sayers and doom merchants? Be off with you!! : )
La Maison de tous Les Plaisirs
Star Fraction
http://www.voodoorockers.co.uk/ |
StoreSlem
|
Posted - 2003.07.06 14:58:00 -
[72]
hippey/tomb wrote: [didnt get it]
Hybrid Railguns are still the best long range weapons at long range (many people have been complaining about them - but the BH [BugHunter] Team wanted to nerf them even more than I did), if a player wants to use Antimatter ammo with Railguns he should focus on training the Sharpshooter skill and also fly a Caldari ship. If a player has level 5 in sharpshooter and in Caldari ship skill, the -50% becomes 0%.
No, 1 x 0.5 * 1.25 * 1.25 = 0.78125
In other words still a 21% reduction.
|
snotty
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Posted - 2003.07.06 16:20:00 -
[73]
i was thinking just the same, even with a 10% tracking enhancer and maxed skills you dont get to 100%... seems wrong to me
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Thano
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Posted - 2003.07.06 18:10:00 -
[74]
Hippy, again you come as the voice of reason. half the fun with eve for me is tweaking my loadout for diforant tasks and this patch makes that alot more fun and chalinging not to mention the fact that it makes you think alot more while in battle infact i lost my first cruiser due to a bad warp and poor loadout that and the fact that every pirate we killed was replaced by another shortly after it was distroyed but thats neither here nor there im just glad i get to have more fun tweaking more loadouts with all the new moduals and weapon and ammo stats put i think im going to work on a good hybrid loadout now that my maller whent *PooF*
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Presidio
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Posted - 2003.07.07 06:26:00 -
[75]
Hippey,
It seems that you haven't tried using projectiles you nerfed.
They're no match to any other type of weapon in the game when it comes to PvP.
It is true that they do most of the damage but the rate of fire and the accuracy nerfes makes them ineffective at any range. I have done tests at different ranges using different ammo and the DPS (damage per second) of long range projectiles is 5-20 times lower than the one fo the long range hybrids or lasers. And the argument that lasers and hybrids use more energy holds no watter because there is no way to improve projectiles and there are so many ways to increase the capacitor recharge.
Maybe if you tried fixing bugs before trying to nerf stuff this wouldn't be so bad.
With 20 rounds of ammo on a 650mm scout and with the loader jamming bug, there is no way you can be effective in PvP.
The tracking value of a 650 is so low that a Tracking Computer I which you have to spend days training skills to be able to use does not make any difference when mounted and activated.
However tracking computer works great for lasers and hybrids.
Oh another thing people that complimented your post are mostly non-minmatars.
I don't really care what you guys do next, I already moved to using lasers and I am happy, I just feel sorry for those who use projectiles, when I blast them in the name of weapon balancing :P
-
"Passivity is fatal to us. Our goal is to make the enemy passive."
Mao Tse-tung
|
Grigori di'Corci
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Posted - 2003.07.07 07:55:00 -
[76]
Projectile weapons aren't quite that bad. Their damage over time is about a third of lasers and hybrids at "normal" range due to poor hit rate, bad tracking, tiny ammo capacity, and low rate of fire, but they don't use cap, so that justifies the drawbacks.
Anyway, if you are not happy with the tradeoff, you can always just stick to lasers and hybrids like the rest of us. =)
Grigori di'Corci
"Two leaps per chasm is fatal." --Chinese Proverb |
Arondos
|
Posted - 2003.07.07 08:01:00 -
[77]
Yep pretty funny when I put on a tracking enhancer and my tracking rates don't even move. 1.0805% of a tracking rate that is nothing adds, yes you guessed it NOTHING. Make it 18% or even 1.8% and it MIGHT be useful.
1.0805% = 0.010805 x 0.0385(425mm AC tracking) = 0.0004159 OMG what a HUGE difference :)
To sum up projectiles now.
1. They use no cap
2. They don't hit worth a **** because the tracking rate SUCKS. Artillery is bearable but AC's need a HARD look.
COME ON an AUTOCANNON is desigend to sling lead. Fires once per second with decent skills but it can't track fast enough to hit anything?
0.0486245 for a tracking rate on an AC? With the mentioned gear and skills. Even with 0 range mod ammo optimal range is under 9k.
Using two 650mm scout artillery. I take down the shields on a 20k bounty beam using NPC pirate (Arch Reaver) stay outside 15k at my optimal range and not get hit. Start at 25k with the artillery using photon to knock down shields. Close so as the artillery runs dry on ammo I hit 8k range and open up with AC's (one 425 and one 220mm both scouts and using depleted uranium). Reload the artillery. The 425 runs dry and generally I am reloading it as the 220mm finshes the job. Two auto cannon can't even chew up 2/3 of the armor on one of these guys without needing to reload?
I've got
L5 gunnery
L4 Medium Proj Turret
L4 Motion prediction
L4 Rapid Firing
L4 Sharpshooter
L4 Small Proj Turret
L3 Surgical Strike
L3 Trajectory Analysis
And I need to reload 3 out of 4 guns to kill ONE 20k bounty pirate. I've tried various combo's, ranges, ammo types. It doesn't get better. If you put hard hitting ammo in the AC the range is so short they can't track fast enough to hit anything when you get into optimal range.
Not asking to be able to sling AC ammo from 20k away. BUT an autocannon should be a nasty in close weapon and to be that it needs to be able to track a target.
Edited by: Arondos on 07/07/2003 08:03:34
Life isn't fair and neither is Eve. Get over it. |
Hippey
|
Posted - 2003.07.07 12:40:00 -
[78]
I fly a stabber with projectiles. I went against a pirate in a Moa with rails. I had his shields down while mine were at 35% and that's when he jumped out.
So yes. I DO use projectiles. Yes I do think they're balanced. No, autocannons don't suck, but they're tougher to use no NPC pirates because it's usually never a 1on1, but a 1on4/5
Guys, all of you who are crying nerf realize a few things
1) Medium ARTILLERY guns were hitting frigates at point blank range. NOT RIGHT
2) Yes artilleries/railguns/beam weapons got a nerf, but they ALL got a nerf. Their relative balance is still pretty much the same. The artilleries had their RoF reduced but that was needed cause they were firing too fast.
3) Yes you do WAY less damage then you did 1077 and before. But EVERYONE is. So why complain? Combat lasts longer, good. Capacitors actually have a chance to drain since combat doesn't last 3 seconds, good. Energy managment therefore plays an important role, good. Frigates actually have time to get in close to a cruiser before being annihilated in 2 shots at 35km out, good.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Saladin
|
Posted - 2003.07.07 13:12:00 -
[79]
Presidio I agreed with everything you said and would like to add my voice to yours.
Having bad range, bad tracking, bad rof is too much of a penalty for just conserving cap.
I lost my bellicose on patch day. But on the bright side my guns weren't using any cap!
I even tried using those medium AC's up close like Hippey mentioned in his original post, at 1.5km they still couldn't hit the broadside of a barn!
Hippey I think we all understand that a nerf was needed to balance the weapons. But in this patch too many aspects of projectiles were nerfed at once. Some of them were nerfed in ways that were not announced, like EMP range penalty changing from -35% to -50% |
Rogue Noir
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Posted - 2003.07.07 13:36:00 -
[80]
You know why using no cap is such a big advantage? Well you see there are these thigs called MODUALS, and they use cap you dontcha know, so with projectiles using no cap, you can use your shield booster twice as much, or use EW more often or run a shield hardener for longer. People need to get over the image that guns are all there is too combat. Oh and before you start im not minmatar but I fly minmatar ships and use projectiles.
-----------------------------------------------
Shady trader, fence and gentleman extrordionaire.
Noir Enterprises Site |
Kaelor
|
Posted - 2003.07.07 14:44:00 -
[81]
Umm...energy weaps draining cap more so than hybrids..true... but there are many, many ways around it. From simple 25% recharge boost modules, to skills to boost recharge rates. When using energy weaps the single most important thing is the recharge rate. If you have the time sufficently low enough you will never have a cap problem again..unless of course you are trying to attack 4 30K cruisers from close range
I have always used heavy beams on my rupt and have *never* had capacitor problems..it simply all depends on your setup. IMO the abilty to change ammo quickly, the ability to never run out, makes for me lasers the best choice for deep space hunting...but hey we all got our preferences
:)
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Daan
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Posted - 2003.07.27 21:50:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Daan on 27/07/2003 21:52:34
1st off; great post hippey,
2nd; why are ppl always talking about guns, guns and guns when it comes to battle? there are other mods available that can be used you know ;)
projectiles deal out 3 types of damage, where hybrids do 2, that way its easier to fit shield hardeners for someone facing hybrids than forsomeone that is facing an opponent with projectiles, etc
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Crimsonjade
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Posted - 2003.07.27 21:52:00 -
[83]
'Cept for the fact that you do not need a shield hardener when fighting those who use projectile weapons ; )
No pain, no palm; no thorns, no throne; no gall, no glory; no cross, no crown.
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Daan
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Posted - 2003.07.27 21:54:00 -
[84]
explain?
web the guy, use abs to get closer...
THINK?
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Jame
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Posted - 2003.07.27 22:02:00 -
[85]
nice post, thanks, dude
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Jovni
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Posted - 2003.12.23 03:40:00 -
[86]
a
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