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Achmed Twenty
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Posted - 2003.07.03 17:41:00 -
[31]
wohoo! minmatar frigates have projectile turret speed bonus now! THX SO MUCH CCP :)
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Lhyda Souljacker
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Posted - 2003.07.03 18:14:00 -
[32]
They also reduced the activation energy from 17 to 15 on the 250 Protos and reduced the PG needs by 20. Not sure if this is blanket for all hybrids, but it is a nice bonus.
... That's when I reach for my revolver ... |
Forgan
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Posted - 2003.07.03 18:23:00 -
[33]
Thx. Nice post. Gave me lots to think about :)
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Mojack
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Posted - 2003.07.03 18:26:00 -
[34]
thanks a lot for all this usefull info.
now I feel really stupid :)
100 ISK donation for the guide (I Am totally broke)
-Mojack
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Fusco T
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Posted - 2003.07.03 19:04:00 -
[35]
Couple things:
First also keep in mind the magazine sizes. Hybrids are double that of most proj. Most of the proj guns we came to know and love have been reduced to 20 shots or .2 capacity.
The named hybrid drops were fixed (no more 800 rounds) most of these set to 40 or 80 for the really fast ones.
So in many cases dual 150 scouts (now 250 light scout artillery) with fast ROF will need to be reloaded after every battle. Possibly during a battle.
Second for the ones who still argue hybrids suck. Optimal IS king. Also the sharpshooter skill goes to optimal so hybrids get best benefit from this skill. It's counterpart Trajectory Analysis (prereq of gunnery 5) affects the falloff which goes to the proj primarily.
So as one can see hybrids on paper anyway should work to control the range game and keep opponent at optimal.
Last point which may also be a question is tracking speed. If I understand it right 6.28 rad a second would be a complete revolution per second, and that .005 of the 650's would take 1256 seconds to make a full revolution?
In my tests on chaos either I was getting lucky having my friend fly in front of gun or this may actually be a little off.
As an example let's say turrets by default point forward. I warp into an asteroid belt with 3 NPCs at my 12 and high. I turn my ship 180 degrees and begin locking. At this point my turrets start turning so they are facing behind (towards the enemy). My ship takes about 10 seconds to turn. So at this point the turrets have 180 deg or 3.14rad to go - time it took to turn my ship. (3.14 / .005)-10 = 618 seconds. This doesn't seem to be accurate in my testing on chaos. Or do I have it completely wrong?
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Misato Warwick
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Posted - 2003.07.03 19:04:00 -
[36]
thx for your time and sharing your "wisdom" with us hippey! *twothumbsup*
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Gwyneth Museveni
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Posted - 2003.07.03 19:15:00 -
[37]
Nightwing, you don't have to stay at 30k. We ran some PvP tests and projectile users can't hurt you nearly badly enough before you close to 20k and flat******him in seconds. Even if they manage to keep the range their ammo capacity has been cut down to almost nothing, and long range sniping attrition simply doesn't do enough to work in their favor when you figure in the reload time. Now projectile-armed cruisers stands no chance of winning against hybrid-armed cruisers, period, unless the hybrid captain is stupid. We were able to beat the best dropped artilleries with even store-bought railguns. =) That's the way it ought to be since projectiles don't use cap.
Projectile artilleries don't have a sweet spot anymore. They have worse tracking than railguns, and they can't hit the broad side of the barn inside their optimum range because of the low tracking speed. Also firing delay on artilleries were nerfed by 50%. Woo! Now projectile weapons just plain suck, which is commensurate with their huge advantage of using very little cap.
Besides, the Minmatar is supposed to be the underdogs with underpowered technology anyhow, and I don't think Minmatar underdoggedness is emphasised nearly enough in terms of game mechanics. I just hope all the bandwagoners don't start to all use hybrids again and get us nerfed next patch.
Overall I am very happy with this patch. Thank you CCP. =) Go Caldari!
-----------------------
Gwyneth Museveni
Rogue Mercenary Cyberneticist |
Splooshie
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Posted - 2003.07.03 19:37:00 -
[38]
One thing you forgot in the post was that Minmatar ships now get a 5% bonus to RoF on projectile weapons. Overall I'm very happy with these changes, focusing skills requires more thought and you can really make the different gun types shine if you use the right ship and train your skills up nice. Another thing to keep in mind is that the gallente dmg bonus lets you use rails with the lower end ammo while not giving up as much damage as other races, there by helping extend the range for the other hybrid race.
_____________________________
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MoonDragn
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Posted - 2003.07.03 20:45:00 -
[39]
Aye fine post, it clarified and verified certain things for me. I think right now the only problem is that pirates are still respawning way too quickly. It may not be hard to take down 3 pirate cruisers but to have to deal with the constant respawn will require weapons with better energy usage.
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Praetor
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Posted - 2003.07.03 23:14:00 -
[40]
Thanks for the info Hippey, and good work, keep it up.
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IZON
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Posted - 2003.07.03 23:32:00 -
[41]
M0o, eat cow dung and die! (told you 'it' wouldn't last) - now it's just a matter of time before nemsis comes stalking you :P (and my corp makes Vexors btw Zap).
"...master! there's a guy in the south village called IZON, he is a Ninja!" |
Mikka MacKern
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Posted - 2003.07.03 23:34:00 -
[42]
<<<<If you would have tested your prototypes with almost ANY ammo vs the 650 scouts with EMP you would have lost. at 30K with EMP, the projectiles don't hit very often, but about 50% of mine were hitting for 50 damage. 1 out of 10 were hitting for 200+ and I had a 400+ crit. This is all at 30K. (with an extended test and timing it, I was killing Marauders 2x as fast with 4 650 scouts with EMP than I could with hybrid ammo that I was at the sweet spot. )>>>>
Nightwing - nope, your theory is "wrong".
The reason is that all the hybrid user needs to do is get you into his "optimal" range - whereupon he will radically outdamage you.
Becasue the hybrid rail optimal is greater than that of the projectile - using the equivalent ammo type the rail will start to hit more consistently and for higher damage earlier than the projectile.
Obviously ammunition is key for the hybrid user, perhaps more so than for the hybrid. The other key for the railgun enthusiast is to maintain range from the target - the closer the combat the worse it gets for the railgun user and, up to a point, the better for projectile (until both cant hit a thing at very close ranges)
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Lola
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Posted - 2003.07.04 12:10:00 -
[43]
This is a post that's almost worth bookmarking.
-----------------------------------------
Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas. |
Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.04 12:26:00 -
[44]
Hmmm... does it need more **** to be bookmark worthy? It does, doesn't it? :(
<starts taking off his clothes>
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Ralimenua
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Posted - 2003.07.04 12:35:00 -
[45]
I come not to praise TomB but to bury him... for Hippey is an honourable man.
:)
Nice post, and thanks for all your testing, Hippey.
--------------=o0O+O0o=--------------
Grand Vizier and General Factotum
Hazara Khan's Haphazard Bazaar
The Finest Camels in all EVE!
O0o=------------------+------------------=o0O |
GeoNoSiS
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Posted - 2003.07.04 13:33:00 -
[46]
after the patch... what ammodo you guys recomend for 250mm and 150mm dual hbrid? i¦m not good with all this technical stuff
-----------------------------------------------
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world |
StarWolfer
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Posted - 2003.07.04 13:48:00 -
[47]
I must say Hippey, impressive post with good and decent information... Especially because I'm no expert in all weapons, you sure summed it up perfectly for me... Thanx!
This post definitly deserves a sticky, but ah well, I don't have the power to do it :-P
Star.
Edited by: StarWolfer on 04/07/2003 13:48:50
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dalman
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Posted - 2003.07.04 13:55:00 -
[48]
For NPC-hunting:
3 250mm Gauss with Uranium ammo.
It deals good damage with optimal range 24km (with skills). Then one blaster or 150mm as backup if you warp in too close on the pirates.
Then it's still easy to take out 4 NPC-cruisers, just keep them at 20km.
If you don't have Gauss, just standard 250mm, you probably want to take 1 step down in ammo. The uranium is 18 damage and -25% optimal range.
Note that this was for NPC-hunting...
*edit* I would still say: STAY AWAY FROM THAT dual 150mm. It's a piece of junk. Even a standard 150mm is still better.
And the post was very good, although it was nothing more than common sence.
Edited by: dalman on 04/07/2003 13:58:21
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Tsaya
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Posted - 2003.07.04 16:03:00 -
[49]
To Nightwing and all who think rails are weak for pvp:
1. If you get inside the optimal range, around 20km, the damage per time of the rails far outperforms the projectile damage, even with 3 250mm rails compared to 4 650mm projectiles
2. If you manage to keep a hybridcruiser outside of the 20km, you cant scramble him, he can easily warp away.
P.S.: stasis webifiers are really worth a lot to keep your enemies at least at 10-15km, if you cant keep em at 20 ;)
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Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2003.07.04 16:18:00 -
[50]
Arty users post that Hybrids overpowered.
Rail users post that Proj overpowered.
balance achieved. :).
Seriously tho - if you wanna fly a minmatar ship, you're gonna have to work a little. When facing a railjockey, HAUL ASS. Don't snipe-slugfest with arty versus railguns - that would be stupid. it's like dueling with pistols at thirty paces, and using a flintlock vs. a Desert Eagle....
This is why minmatar ships have speed. The decisively faster and more manueverable ship determines the range and therefore controls what weapons are used.
If you don't have some fast-tracking backup weps on your cruiser, you're an idiot who deserves to die, and you will. When being sniped by something far more powerful than I, full-burning inwards at high speed and going crazy won the day. There is no "saving your ammo" in a Minmatar vessel. Saving it for WHAT? Your replacement ship? Fire missiles! Fire arty until you get too close to hit! Open up with AC, lasers, Blasters, whatever your short to med weps are. Maybe you wanna keep a slot for a badass smartbomb to clean out those pesky drone infestations, who knows.
Just remember - youre not SUPPOSED to be able to handle *every* possibility alone. Fill a role in a group. For arty, it's fire support, not frontline grappling. Getting outsniped by the Thorax with 5 rails? Send your rifter friends after it. Hell, even one rifter with ACs would annihilate that Thorax - literally run rings around it and blow it to hell.
And *his* mates are supposed to protect *him* from close threats...
so now combat's as complicated and interesting as it was supposed to be.
The problem is we no longer have "anyone can hit anything with anything," and yeah, we were spoiled. It's gonna take time to get over that is all.
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Lutetia
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Posted - 2003.07.04 17:38:00 -
[51]
I don't know much about the lessons you try to give.
But I understand the following:
1. 650 mm med arty is absolute crap now
2. 20 bullets in a 150 mm dual scout is simply a bad joke
3. 50% range reducing to shieldbreaker projektiles is simple (and only) insane
Maybe, you should go to school again, guy?
This patch wrecked minmatars advantages back to stoneage. To bad, I trained mostly those projektile skills.
I am looking forward for some corrections.
Otherwise, there are some highlevel Chars in other rpgs waiting to dust off.
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Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2003.07.04 17:56:00 -
[52]
Lut,
You failed the lesson. Big damage or big range, not both, it's called a "tradeoff" and is the basis of all balance.
Getcher greedy mitts off the EMP for a second.. all those mag waves can't be good for you anyway - and take a look at this Photon shell.
The much-ignored "baby emp" ammo has the *same* damage spread as EMP - Mostly EM, some explosive, a little kinetic (and three damtypes! Versatility is good).
EM ammo has range of -50%.
Photon has range mod of +10%.
yes that's a PLUS. The idea is, always shoulda been, and always will be, that distance weps do less damage per shot. If you're far away you can potshot with ease. You ARE maintaining distance when using arty, right?
Train Rapid Firing.
Train your cruiser skill.
Train - uh - the range-enhancing skill.
You wanna specialize in sniping, you should be already. We just had it easy until now: arty barrage, boom, buhbye target.
The autocannons that you keep as backupo for close-range fighting should have EMP for chewing up anyone who thinks they're gonna close in on you.
But i've been using the photon in the 650 you just dismissed as worthless, and it works great. I also make sure to stay at 10-12km from the target.
If the target gets to 5-10km, i webify it and either run out more or use the medrange weapon i have mounted.
If anything zooms in - like heaven help me a Rifter - and i have NO chance of maintaing distance, i webify it (to make it easier to hit, not to try to maintain sniping distance) and chew it up with the autocannons. The fast-tracking ones, not mediums!
35-50 points per shot at 18km is not, in the current system, "useless." I mount two of the suckers and therefore do light missile damage with every shot, more when i get lucky.
As for ammo capacity - um, noticed that you don't use ANY cap when fighting yet? If you're running out of ammo in every fight, you are doing something wrong. So you have to reload during an extended fight - your opponent has to recharge, however. You can go crazy with modules while most peole have to watch their cap. So really, there's nothing to complain about.
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Darkcraft
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Posted - 2003.07.04 18:04:00 -
[53]
"if a player wants to use Antimatter ammo with Railguns he should focus on training the Sharpshooter skill and also fly a Caldari ship. If a player has level 5 in sharpshooter and in Caldari ship skill, the -50% becomes 0%."
wrong.. it should do but it doesn't
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=16611
Edited by: Darkcraft on 04/07/2003 18:05:42
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Paul Museveni
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Posted - 2003.07.04 18:12:00 -
[54]
Bad Harlequin says,
"Fire arty until you get too close to hit!"
Care to enlighten us on how you survived closing from 25k to "too close to hit" against a competent hybrid cruiser? Once you get within 25k the railguns will rip you apart in seconds. Hybrids don't just have better optimum range, they have superior long range ammo and faster firing rate/better DoT.
The pre-vs.-post patch hybrid-vs.-projectile, is like this: Hybrids have much longer optimum; projectiles have slightly better opt+falloff range.
Pre-Patch:
Guns do so much damage the fight is almost always over before ships get within opt range, so hybrid's superior opt range usually doesn't come into play during the decisive exchange. End result, the projectile cruiser usually wins by 30% if it didn't start out too close.
Post-Patch:
Guns don't do enough damage at opt+falloff range to decide the battle, so the decisive exchange doesn't happen until opt range. Even if the projectile's opt range damage over time was on par with hybrid's, which it isn't since it was nerfed to way below hybrid's, once you enter the hybrid's opt range at 25k, the hybrid starts to do serious damage and the fight is over in seconds. Unless you can find a hybrid captain dumb enough to let you webify/kite him at 30k through reloads and he fights to the death never run away when his armor gets low even though he has plenty of time to do so, the hybrid wins by a landslide in basically all "common" scenarios. Even if you by some miracle get to dogfight, neutrons will******autocannons hands down.
It's just another classic example of CCP turning a slight imbalance into a landslide imbalance by overcompensating. I'm loving my 250mm gauss right now, but I don't expect it to last too long. =)
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EvilT
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Posted - 2003.07.04 18:43:00 -
[55]
Paul: i think thats why minmatar ships have suchs good speeds, so they can close in or stay out of range/optimal range - whichever they choose.
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Gwyneth Museveni
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Posted - 2003.07.04 21:48:00 -
[56]
"Unless you can find a hybrid captain dumb enough to let you webify/kite him at 30k"
Paul, 30k may be good enough for your silly Gallente Thorax+Anti-Matter, but most hybrid cruisers are well within optimum+falloff at 30k and will******a projectile cruiser at that range because how much CCP has nerfed the projectile's base damage over time. If you are up against my Caldari Moa+Thorium setup, that is within my optimum range and I'll light you up like a Christmas tree if you try to kite me at 30k. Caldari demonstrates its superiority over Gallente yet again. Want to do more testing tonight? =)
Let's not forget that the projectile weapons don't use any cap. Projectile cruiser should stand absolutely no chance against hybrid cruisers by right.
"i think thats why minmatar ships have suchs good speeds, so they can close in or stay out of range/optimal range - whichever they choose."
Anybody who has tried to dictate range or keep within a small range window with a small base speed margin can tell you how hard it is to match burner burst for burst with a PC kitee.
They can choose to stay way out, but if they choose to close in they die. At what range would the Minmatar scum choose to stay out at anyhow? Even without range mod modules installed I can load Tungsten and hit at 60km out with a Moa for much more damage than a Howitzer at that range, while cruiser artillery simply can't hit out that far period without outside help. If I load range mods I can out range any projectile gun+whatever range mod configuration simply because mod apply to optimum range and not falloff.
And that's the way it ought to be considering hybrids use both ammo and cap. It is SUPPOSED to be clearly the best weapons with its dual-drawbacks. The only complain about combat this patch I have is that energy weapon is still too strong for guns which don't use ammo. They also have the additional advantage of being able to change crystals without loading delay. They ought to be brought down to projectiles' power level by right, not breathing down the necks of hybrids like they do right now.
-----------------------
Gwyneth Museveni
Rogue Mercenary Cyberneticist |
Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.04 21:58:00 -
[57]
You smell Gwyneth. Like an Amarr.
>:)
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Mandos
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Posted - 2003.07.04 22:52:00 -
[58]
Good stuff, Hippey.
-- Mandos
Polaris Forum Moderator and Bug Hunter
EVE Forum rules |
Darkcraft
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Posted - 2003.07.05 00:18:00 -
[59]
Hippey where did u get this from?
"If a player has level 5 in sharpshooter and in Caldari ship skill, the -50% becomes 0%."
is that whats going to be implemented? as at the moment this is not the case.
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Booky
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Posted - 2003.07.05 03:50:00 -
[60]
Darkcraft, you get 5% for sharpshooter and 5% for each lvl ship skill. You need lvl 5 sharpshooter, and lvl 5 in your ship class, ie cruiser.
Also, I hate to give tips, but rails and statis web at 18km, your toast. Now I jsut need to find a statis web that goes to 20km like the warp disruptor does :-)
Edited by: Booky on 05/07/2003 05:06:32
Spelling corrections welcome, but don't expect me to edit my post. |
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