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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.03 14:29:00 -
[1]
I am writing this in hopes of quiting all the "GUNS WERE NERFED, WAAAH" and "DUAL 425 SCOUT DON'T EXIST ANYMORE AND WHAT WAS A DUAL 425 HAS BEEN NERFED AND SUCKS"
See, don't blame CCP. I called for all these nerfs. Yup me, blame me. Come on, you want to.
See, I found it odd that the Dual 425 Scout had better tracking then a SMALL howitzer. See to me that was odd. I also found it odd that the D425 scout was hitting an orbitting frigate at 500m. Medium gun, having no trouble hitting a frigate.
I found that odd too. But hey, you guys are right, it's a TOTALLY unneccesary nerf and WASN'T needed at all, so like I said blame me.
Oh and, I also found it odd that one small projectile was the king of ALL small (D150 scout) and one medium projectile (d425 scout) was the king of mediums. I mean autocannons were pointless, howitzers were pointless. See I found that odd too. Why should a long range, heavy damage gun be good as point blank range?
But hey you're right, it's an unneccesary nerf, game was TOTALLY balanced before, Frigates had a HUGE chance against cruisers and now it all sucks and is my fault. Blame me.
Oh, but just for the record before I waste mine and TomB's time on many ingrates here, I'd like to say that the D425 scout wasn't REMOVED. It was renamed so that you know what version of the market gun it's better of. Since it's the better versoin of the 650mm Artillery, it makes sense for it to be called 650mm Scout Artillery. Howitzers is now the 720mm Scout Howitzer. But hey, all it took was a click to Patch Review to see this change, or actualyl reading PATCH NOTES, but you know, it's easier to start threads and have some cheese and whine.
But here you go. and remember, these are NERFS, not fixes, and BLAME ME cause I suck and I wanted balance.
I would like to thank TomB, who was a gracious dev and answered these questions to me in IRC just because I asked him to. Oooooh what a concept. The first part are his words and the "LESSON" part is addendum by me to help put into perspective even more what the guns are good for and why they are balanced.
Hybrid Railguns are still the best long range weapons at long range (many people have been complaining about them - but the BH [BugHunter] Team wanted to nerf them even more than I did), if a player wants to use Antimatter ammo with Railguns he should focus on training the Sharpshooter skill and also fly a Caldari ship. If a player has level 5 in sharpshooter and in Caldari ship skill, the -50% becomes 0%.
Lesson: You can't have massive damage and massive range. It's one or the other. Up to you to decide what you want your optimal range to be and set up your guns and ammo for that purpose.
Hybrid Blasters can deal the most damage at close range, and since the range modification of ammo does not affect these guns as much as railguns, players can use the high damage ammo. Gallente of course would be best at using hybrid blasters because of 5% damage bonus for hybrid weapons, blasters shoot extremely fast and have very high tracking speed, so if a player gets into close range there is almost no way of beating him.
Lesson: Ultimate in short range, but there's a price to pay. It uses cap. However, toe-to-toe, no one can match your damage over time output.
Projectile AutoCannons have the highest tracking speed in game, they don't have as powerful cannons as hybrid blasters or energy pulse weapons since they don't use any capacitor. They are more useful to use as a side weapon to artillery cannons.
Lesson: Obviously, minmatar frigates gain the most from these with their increase to damage as a ship bonus. Setting these or any short range guns for long-range is just suicide. Use what it's good for, and use it well.
Projectile artilleries still deal the most damage of all longer range turrets, but they are very inaccurate at close range and some projectile artilliers had incorrect speed value which was a fix and not a nerf. They are not at accurate at long range as railguns but can deal more damage and use no capacitor.
Lesson: Projectile Artillery hits for more, but less often then railguns. Railguns have a much bigger range in which they can hit more often then projectiles, so while if both projectile and railgun land a good shot, the projectile will be for more damage, the railguns will be landing far MORE due to bigger optimal range and better RoF and therefore have the bigger Damage over Time {DoT}. Also remember that the fact that Railguns have better tracking then projectile means that the Railgun can keep hitting even when the targets pretty close, while a projectile will start missing far sooner
Edited by: Hippey on 03/07/2003 14:33:24
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If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.03 14:33:00 -
[2]
Howitzers are long range artilleries, best combat tactic with them would be to have a few of them in the back firing at same target if they all get good shots, target is dead. These are THE longest range weapons in the game.
Lesson: Massive damage, massive range, horrible tracking and horrific rate of fire, heavy fitting requirements.
do NOT use EMP ammo with Howitzers, unless you like to gimp yourself silly or have REALLY good skills.
Energy Pulse weapons are best used at close/medium range, they are ideal for combat with players using either both blasters/railguns or autocannons/artilleries. Pulse weapons do drain alot of energy and a player that wants to expertize in energy weapons has to master the Controlled Burst skill and consider flying in Amarr ships that use less capacitor for energy weapons.
Lesson: Remember, lasers have the added benefit of NEVER having to reload and being able to switch crystals on the fly to better suit the current battle conditions, ie. they're guns are suited for wider aray of combat scenarios, whereas projectile and hybrids have to specialize in one or two types and will LOSE if the combat situation is outside of what they're ready to deal with.
Energy Beam weapons are the next to railguns at their optimal range, they have a slight better tracking speed but use alot more capacitor in usage. The same goes with beam lasers as pulse lasers, people have to have correct skills and equipment; ship/modules in order to use them for best results.
Lesson: Again same thing applies. Beam weapons don't ever have to reload and can change crystals on the fly (not wait 10 seconds like the projectle/hybrid users have to). I think it goes without saying that you don't want to be using laser weapons on minmatar ships which have less cap then any other race.
Suit the gun for your style of play and your ship.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Jay Gatsby
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Posted - 2003.07.03 14:43:00 -
[3]
Damn you Hippey, you NERFER.
:o)
Actually, I've been really looking forward to this patch. Now maybe my Incursus with 3 Neutron Blasters will be worth something in a scrap.
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Stavros
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Posted - 2003.07.03 14:43:00 -
[4]
wow i wonder if anyone will actually read all that stuff, you are certainly err enthusiastic arent u. Full marks for effort anyway...
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Askari
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Posted - 2003.07.03 14:48:00 -
[5]
Thank you Hippey, that was a most informative read...
----------------
~= Askari =~
Urza's Factory
http://www.mikeward.uk.com/urzas
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Rhonstet
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Posted - 2003.07.03 14:54:00 -
[6]
You sir, are a good man. Thanks for the information.
The Monkeysphere |
Elereth
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Posted - 2003.07.03 14:59:00 -
[7]
Excellent post Hippey. :)
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ph34r t3h m0d t34m |
MitchKambers
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:02:00 -
[8]
Nice work.
A good bit of emphasis on how to form a fleet to handle all comers, rather than a single ship.
And as for Ammo, there must have been a lot of people out there that wondered why there were different types ;)
----
~] "You can spend life making plans, but life is what happens while you wait for plans to work." [~ |
Khaed Duhn
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:04:00 -
[9]
And the Lord sayeth unto the Hippey
"Good Work My Son"
And there was much rejoicing
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EvilT
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:12:00 -
[10]
well said Hipp, i agree on all points (i mean its hard to argue with common sense, really)
PS: Missiles will look definitely better now, no question about that. Although im not quite sure if they are stilll up to the turret standarts.
Edited by: EvilT on 03/07/2003 15:16:29
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Tinwhistle
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:12:00 -
[11]
Yo Hippey, VERY interesting read, and nicely put together. Saved me a lot of time comparing all the turret data myself. :p
I was looking forward to thhis patch in terms of balancing, and it seems very promising. Finally tactics will play a bigger part in fighting again - both in space and while fitting your ship. I can't wait to try a fast Rifter with Blasters against a cruiser with long-range weapons. *evilgrin*
Btw, anyone with experience in the area of missiles after the patch yet? Rumour had it that damage would be adjusted at least for the heavier types, making them more useful relative to the tuned-down damage potential of most turret weapons.
CYa,
Tinwhistle
Proudly flying the white skull on black!
Tinwhistle of the Caribbean League |
Lhyda Souljacker
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:33:00 -
[12]
Thanks Hippey,
I've been waiting for my full railgun loadout and controlled burst 4 to mean something.
See! Railguns are weak! 300 Damage from 30km away is lame! So is hitting 4 out of every 5 shots, and having a 4 sec ROF!
Riiigggght.
... That's when I reach for my revolver ... |
snotty
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:39:00 -
[13]
but, but, its his fault i can not instakill pirates any more.
gonne be fun now, was kind of getting bored fighting the "easy" pirates, now im going to need to learn combat again.
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Santini
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:48:00 -
[14]
Great post, informative as always. :)
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Riddari
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:52:00 -
[15]
And just a couple of days ago I recycled lots of pirate dropped railguns :p
¼©¼
a history |
The Reverend
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:53:00 -
[16]
Thanks for the post Hippey. I had just been looking for some posts on what had changed this time round. As I said in another post, I'll hold fire on what I think of the patch until I test it, but if all is as you say it is (and I have no doubt that it is) then it sounds a lot more hopeful than I originally thought.
m0ovie links |
Chai N'Dorr
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:55:00 -
[17]
stands on a bench and applauds loudly
Finally it start to look that my speedy frigates are going to stand a chance and do what they were meant to do with projectile weapons.
sigh Why, oh why do I have an appointment tonight? I wanna login and apply this patch!
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Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2003.07.03 15:57:00 -
[18]
*waves* hey hip! nice guide.
>>wow i wonder if anyone will actually read all that stuff, you are certainly err enthusiastic arent u. Full marks for effort anyway...<<
yeah, Stavr0s - don't read *any* of it. You don't need to know any of that stuff. Just keep doing whatever it is you're doing now, i'm sure it will all work fine... >;)
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:07:00 -
[19]
Railguns = underpowered
The power and cpu requirements are way too high for these guns. Sorry, do not agree with your happy nerf post in this area.
Good read on the rest.
Edited by: The Wretch on 03/07/2003 16:08:53
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Demangel
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:08:00 -
[20]
Hippey, I for one thank you and all the others who have been on the patch forums and testing for this patch (including myself to a limited degree).
I have yet to see ALL of the implemented changes in effect but all I can say is: WOWOWOWOWOWOW!!!!! If nerfs can do this much good for a game, I NEED MORE OF EM!!!!
Seriously though, I'm right here with yah man, excellent post, excellent points, and damn EVE just got about 10 times better!!!!
Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you
Demangel > Dude... I would call..
Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet.
Galaxion > Just a bit.
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Azhraell
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:10:00 -
[21]
We wubz0rz j00 hippey
_______
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Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:12:00 -
[22]
I agree with you wretch, i think rail guns should either do a little more damage, or there power grid should be reduced by like 10-15% But they still are "decent" weapons if you use the right ammo.
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Madcow
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:16:00 -
[23]
Yeah even lower pirate cruiser became more fun because they where abit harder to defeat.
______________________
I am just a crazy cow |
Digital Sin
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:17:00 -
[24]
excellent post. its so relieving to read something constructive hippey. :)
either way i am happy. range mods are in, the super ultra mega hyper damage mods are out, missiles do more damage, and i have a caldari raven lined up for me with six H50 launchers loaded with paradise missiles. :)
"To be content,to be comfortable, is to be complacent. No one learns anything from pleasure..pain on the other hand is a most efficient instructor" |
Milk
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:24:00 -
[25]
Darn Hippies. Get a job!
(well done really!)
________________________________________________
You know whats good for you.
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:25:00 -
[26]
Thank you for the nice comments everyone. Sorry for the, umm, intro on the first post. I AM a passionate bastard :(
Oh and for the people who still think the Hybrids suck compared to Projectiles please check this thread and look at Morkt Drak's reply. He was the earliest and strongest protestor that hybrids suck compared to projectiles. He tested it personally with TomB (what a great guy, eh?) and when he saw it in practice, he was convinced. You might be too. Give it a look
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=15586
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Von Wulfe
|
Posted - 2003.07.03 16:26:00 -
[27]
I had 4 650's installed and I new the patch was coming, so I tried it out on some gate pirates...
I have to say, I was getting smoked within 3k by an Incurses. The damn ship was too fast and tracking suxors :) Now I must find a Corp mate to target practice on with weapon loads...
I must say, this was a fine patch. I am glad to see it. Now equipment seems to be more in balance and one person won't be able to take on 6 heavy cruisers in a MOA, atleast for now.
Good show CCP, keep up the good work.
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Nightwing
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:34:00 -
[28]
Hippey, I read your dissertation about the test of hybrids vs 650 scouts on the test server and was very hopeful. I just tested ingame at 30K for pirates 3 prototype gauss vs 4 650 scouts and got the following which is really screwy.
If you would have tested your prototypes with almost ANY ammo vs the 650 scouts with EMP you would have lost. at 30K with EMP, the projectiles don't hit very often, but about 50% of mine were hitting for 50 damage. 1 out of 10 were hitting for 200+ and I had a 400+ crit. This is all at 30K. (with an extended test and timing it, I was killing Marauders 2x as fast with 4 650 scouts with EMP than I could with hybrid ammo that I was at the sweet spot. )
The reason behind this is the FALLOFF of the projectiles being so much larger than the hybrids. With decent ranged skills I was still within the first falloff range for the scouts. I also had a hit at 45KM with the 650 scouts and EMP for 200+ while firing an "Aggro" shot. I did not test this in full.
P.S. This was in a MOA that gets bonuses to hybrid and none to projectile.
P.P.S The fix for this is easy. The falloff for hybrid guns should be the same or longer than for projectiles.
Edited by: Nightwing on 03/07/2003 16:40:59
Edited by: Nightwing on 03/07/2003 16:46:36
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Achmed Twenty
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:39:00 -
[29]
great post hippey.
just my 2 cents ...
projectile autocannosn should do a bit more dmg or have a far better tracking speed (medium ones)
minmatar cruiser should get another bonus skill. adding speed to a crusier is plain useless. ill appriciate the projectile dmg bonus.
otherwise ... i like the new "fixes"
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Bedrock
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Posted - 2003.07.03 16:56:00 -
[30]
Awesome read! Thanks hippy
/bookmarked
danny~!
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