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Capqu
Love Squad
Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
17
   |
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
To start with, this is a thread about the play style of finding and killing people running anomalies in null sec. If that's not something you're interested in, then I apologize for tricking you into my thread. The reason I am making this thread is to make more people aware of the proposed changes, since they are fairly hidden at the moment, and to bring to your attention why I think said changes are a bad idea.
So CCP are planning on upgrading the AI in anomalies and missions, which sounds great! The problem is they are planning on changing AI in such a way that will be severely detrimental to people attempting to gank people in those anomalies.
AI is being redesigned to prioritise targets based on a number of criteria, instead of just having them stay on whatever they start on. In particular, NPCs will target ships of the same class (frigates will target frigates etc) with highest priority.
For the ordinary ratter all this means is NPCs closer to drone size than the ratters ship size will go for their drones, so they'll have to either take them out first or micro drones around this fact (which is kind of cool).
What this means for people soloing in a stealth bomber specifically hunting these ratters, is your play-style is gone. CCP FoxFour has explicitly said you can no longer do this. Poof; content and play style gone.
CCP FoxFour wrote:To be honest yes this means you will no longer be able to do this solo in a stealth bomber
I don't think it is acceptable to straight up remove a style of play and an avenue of content for no real reason. I've yet to see any major content added to the game as a result of the AI change, so I don't understand how CCP can justify this.
What this means for people who tackle ratters in interceptors with a fleet waiting nearby, the already heavily favored ratter (minimum of 20 seconds to scan down and land on grid after spiking local) now has another defense should they be bad enough to get tackled in the first place; interceptors die very, very quickly to frigate rats. The ratter can simply leave frigate rats alive, and be virtually immune to all forms of danger while they PvE their hearts out in the "danger zone" of 0.0.
To be honest, I doubt even ratters would advocate these changes to their safety. Most competent ratters know they are already basically immune to ganks if they are prudent in monitoring local, so I don't see them asking for more help in this regard. The changes are probably a positive thing for ratters overall, maybe they make missions more engaging or whatever, so don't get me wrong in that regard.
Here are the links of CCPFoxFour talking about the changes
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1994441#post1994441
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155703&find=unread
I'm interested to see what ratters and other players think of this, since I only have the point of view of someone who's primary enjoyment in the game is about to be removed. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1238
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Oh no!
Warping a small ship into a hoard of NPCs might become dangerous.
This is unheard of CCP. PvP players should *not* have to deal with PvE if they don't want to!
*Much rolling of eyes*
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Gun Gal
Dark Club
97
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Its good, but I see your whine.
You are sad that you cannot take advantage of all the aggro being on the ratter, with you to soak him as well
The new system will make you possible a target as well.
Perfect! Lets face it, it is a bad game mechanic that let that happen in the first place, and you should be a target, after all the enemy hates you too.
Suck it up princess |
Capqu
Love Squad
Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
19
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Oh no!
Warping a small ship into a hoard of NPCs might become dangerous.
This is unheard of CCP. PvP players should *not* have to deal with PvE if they don't want to!
*Much rolling of eyes*
I would greatly appreciate it if you actually read my post first. If your only argument is that you're warping into NPCs so you should be shot, please tell me why Sansha would think it was in their best interest to start shooting the guy who is apparently on their side?
I suppose I should have expected these kind of responses from null sec ratters stupid enough to let themselves be tackled in the first place. Are you honestly telling me you don't currently feel safe ratting in null and want another line of defense? |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
948
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Look man, CCP doesn't want you picking off from their grubby, money-grinding, PLEX-buying herd. It's not really news at this point. Every single change from now on is going to be focused on the demographic they believe to be their company's future.
The best thing we can do is adapt, as usual. That way we can at least have a few more months of the status quo, until they patch up their error in judgement by deeming tackling in general an exploit.
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
273
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Oh no!
Warping a small ship into a hoard of NPCs might become dangerous.
This is unheard of CCP. PvP players should *not* have to deal with PvE if they don't want to!
*Much rolling of eyes*
Keep rolling them eyes, but it takes a silly situation (NPCs shooting one thing the whole while they are getting slaughtered" to an equally stupid situation "NPCs switch target from the guy who trying to kill them to the guy who's trying to SAVE them".......
|
Robert De'Arneth
80
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gun Gal wrote:Its good, but I see your whine.
You are sad that you cannot take advantage of all the aggro being on the ratter, with you to soak him as well
The new system will make you possible a target as well.
Perfect! Lets face it, it is a bad game mechanic that let that happen in the first place, and you should be a target, after all the enemy hates you too.
Suck it up princess
Not often you see the most perfect response to someone crying like a little baby, but I think this thread can die, no one can respond better then this. |
Gun Gal
Dark Club
98
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Capqu wrote:War Kitten wrote:Oh no!
Warping a small ship into a hoard of NPCs might become dangerous.
This is unheard of CCP. PvP players should *not* have to deal with PvE if they don't want to!
*Much rolling of eyes*
I would greatly appreciate it if you actually read my post first. If your only argument is that you're warping into NPCs so you should be shot, please tell me why Sansha would think it was in their best interest to start shooting the guy who is apparently on their side? I suppose I should have expected these kind of responses from null sec ratters stupid enough to let themselves be tackled in the first place. Are you honestly telling me you don't currently feel safe ratting in null and want another line of defense?
You should be as much of a potential target as the ratter , period.
|
Capqu
Love Squad
Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
19
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
Gun Gal wrote:Capqu wrote:War Kitten wrote:Oh no!
Warping a small ship into a hoard of NPCs might become dangerous.
This is unheard of CCP. PvP players should *not* have to deal with PvE if they don't want to!
*Much rolling of eyes*
I would greatly appreciate it if you actually read my post first. If your only argument is that you're warping into NPCs so you should be shot, please tell me why Sansha would think it was in their best interest to start shooting the guy who is apparently on their side? I suppose I should have expected these kind of responses from null sec ratters stupid enough to let themselves be tackled in the first place. Are you honestly telling me you don't currently feel safe ratting in null and want another line of defense? You should be as much of a potential target as the ratter , period.
Oh okay, my bad. I didn't realise you had come to that conclusion and that you were the authority on NPC targeting mechanics. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1239
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
Gun Gal wrote:Capqu wrote:War Kitten wrote:Oh no!
Warping a small ship into a hoard of NPCs might become dangerous.
This is unheard of CCP. PvP players should *not* have to deal with PvE if they don't want to!
*Much rolling of eyes*
I would greatly appreciate it if you actually read my post first. If your only argument is that you're warping into NPCs so you should be shot, please tell me why Sansha would think it was in their best interest to start shooting the guy who is apparently on their side? I suppose I should have expected these kind of responses from null sec ratters stupid enough to let themselves be tackled in the first place. Are you honestly telling me you don't currently feel safe ratting in null and want another line of defense? You should be as much of a potential target as the ratter , period.
Exactly.
You are not "apparently on their side", you are a hostile in their space too. And you're a damn easy target. You'll die fast and first.
Goodbye.
(And I hunt the nullsec ratters myself - but nice try assuming I was the carebear :) )
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
273
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Look man, CCP doesn't want you picking off from their grubby, money-grinding, PLEX-buying herd. It's not really news at this point. Every single change from now on is going to be focused on the demographic they believe to be their company's future. The best thing we can do is adapt, as usual. That way we can at least have a few more months of the status quo, until they patch up their error in judgement by deeming tackling in general an exploit. Capqu wrote:I would greatly appreciate it if you actually read my post first. If your only argument is that you're warping into NPCs so you should be shot, please tell me why Sansha would think it was in their best interest to start shooting the guy who is apparently on their side? You're using logic on an internet discussion forum. A rookie mistake, but one you'll soon learn to avoid.
Rofl Destiny. +1 :)
It creates what another poster calls "POCKET CONCORD" (I prefer my own term, "BearShield" :) ) in null sec.
I am the nulliest of null-bears, I love me some forsaken hubs and some fleet staging points that come from them, it more likely to die in an anom to gankers than gank someone in an anom.
I benefit greatly from this change, not only from the added protection (i'll just kill the NPC frigs and destroyers last, and laugh HARD when those frigs and dessies aggro and instatpop the purifier that just came into MY Sanctum of Haven lol), but also from the new method of controlling aggro through EWAR threat management, which will allow my triple boxing Battleship to do something I don't do now, which is use drones "drone bunny" style like in incursions. 300 more dps = more isk in my wallet....
It's a really really bad thing, ccp chainging the AI in old content instead of doing a comprehensive redesign, even if I'm already thinking of ways to totally exploit it all. Of course, the more short sighted null bears will be rejoicing....till they fine out this change ALSO makes the high end DEDs something you wouldn't want to risk a faction battleship in anymore.......
|
Capqu
Love Squad
Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
19
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:
Exactly.
You are not "apparently on their side", you are a hostile in their space too. And you're a damn easy target. You'll die fast and first.
Goodbye.
(And I hunt the nullsec ratters myself - but nice try assuming I was the carebear :) )
I see at this point you are trying to overwhelm me with stupidity, so I'll just take your opinion into account and ask that you don't post further. Appreciate it. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
273
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
Capqu wrote:War Kitten wrote:
Exactly.
You are not "apparently on their side", you are a hostile in their space too. And you're a damn easy target. You'll die fast and first.
Goodbye.
(And I hunt the nullsec ratters myself - but nice try assuming I was the carebear :) )
I see at this point you are trying to overwhelm me with stupidity, so I'll just take your opinion into account and ask that you don't post further. Appreciate it.
That's just inviting them to post more lol.
And their short-sightenness will continue on and on. You can tell that the people who support this don't really think it will negatively affect them.
But it will, and im gonna lul, sometime shortly after December 3rd of this year.
|
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1239
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Capqu wrote:
Oh okay, my bad. I didn't realise you had come to that conclusion and that you were the authority on NPC targeting mechanics.
You sound worse than the carebears whining about this supposed nerf to their afk drones.
Anything involving the non-sleeper AI is ridiculously easy right now. If it makes the ratter's job harder and the ganker's job harder, then good. CCP is making a ridiculously non-challenging aspect of the game more challenging.
This is a good thing.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Sladislov
Love Squad
Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
5
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
I believe another point is that with the AI changes, 2 mini professions (Ninja salvaging/baiting and solo/small gang player vs ratter) get flushed down the toilet with nothing in return.
In effect CCP is removing content from the people who choose to play like this, and helping the people who rat/mission.
(High end Plexes will not benefit from this, since you cannot run them anymore with tank/dps setup)
They took our jobs.
War Kitten wrote:Capqu wrote:
Oh okay, my bad. I didn't realise you had come to that conclusion and that you were the authority on NPC targeting mechanics.
You sound worse than the carebears whining about this supposed nerf to their afk drones. Anything involving the non-sleeper AI is ridiculously easy right now. If it makes the ratter's job harder and the ganker's job harder, then good. CCP is making a ridiculously non-challenging aspect of the game more challenging. This is a good thing.
It isn't non-challenging; If the ratter in question is paying attention, there is no way he can be caught.
Thats right, No way to get caught making boatloads of isk, they'll only lose ships when they stop paying attention
and go watch the newest episode of naruto while making spacebucks. |
Inquisitor Kitchner
Galaxy Punks
Executive Outcomes
110
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
Capqu wrote:
If your only argument is that you're warping into NPCs so you should be shot, please tell me why Sansha would think it was in their best interest to start shooting the guy who is apparently on their side??
Because Sansha hate Capsuleers just as much as say the HBC hates -A-.
If there was a fight between Two groups of players, both neutral to each other and another player who was neutral to both parties flew in who was easier to kill, you really think no-one would shoot him?
I certainly would, because I wouldn't even know he wasn't blue to you.
So basically, you're upset that NPCs will fight more like players and now you can't do something that was only possible before because NPCs were way stupider then (most) players?
Let's face it, you wouldn't fly into two groups of neutral players fighting like that, now you wont do it to NPCs and Players either. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1239
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
Capqu wrote:War Kitten wrote:
Exactly.
You are not "apparently on their side", you are a hostile in their space too. And you're a damn easy target. You'll die fast and first.
Goodbye.
(And I hunt the nullsec ratters myself - but nice try assuming I was the carebear :) )
I see at this point you are trying to overwhelm me with stupidity, so I'll just take your opinion into account and ask that you don't post further. Appreciate it.
Your argument was that you were supposedly coming to save the Sanshas with your little stealth bomber. Who's being stupid?
You're defending the status quo because it upsets your gameplay and you might have to change tactics. Boo hoo.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
38
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
Eh, I can find ways around it so can you. Overall the bears and ratters are getting screwed in all the right places. You really don't think 99% of them are going to remember to leave a few frigate rats around for bombers when those are the rats causing them to micro manage their drones do ya? |
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
867
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
0.0 - the NEW highsec !
So seriously now. You want to go bombing down on another dude who is targetted by NPC's but you do not want those NPC's to target you in turn, because it's unfair, it breaks your previous mode of play ? Because you are "helping" the NPC's ?
I have read ridiculous posts before in these forums and I must tell you Capqu, what you want rates as ridiculous.
Hey I have an idea for you ! How about your get positive standings with the NPC's so that they don't attack you ?
Oh wait, no such thing ?
A man walks into a bar, pulls out a gun and starts shooting and killing the hoarde of trolls in the bar, who are in turn shooting at him en-masse. You walk in and start shooting at the man. The trolls reckon "wtf? who is this?" and start shooting at you as well, just because you're not wearing their uniform.
Just saying. Goose and gander story, you know.
The universe is an ancient desert, a vast wasteland with only occasional habitable planets as oases. We Fremen, comfortable with deserts, shall now venture into another. - STILGAR, From the Sietch to the Stars. |
Capqu
Love Squad
Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
20
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Capqu wrote:
Oh okay, my bad. I didn't realise you had come to that conclusion and that you were the authority on NPC targeting mechanics.
You sound worse than the carebears whining about this supposed nerf to their afk drones. Anything involving the non-sleeper AI is ridiculously easy right now. If it makes the ratter's job harder and the ganker's job harder, then good. CCP is making a ridiculously non-challenging aspect of the game more challenging. This is a good thing.
I don't think you know exactly how hard it is to gank people ratting in anomalies, but I'll attempt to explain. You have to jump into a system, hit dscan, identify a target and start system scan. While system scan is running, you have to obtain the general area the target is in with dscan, and when system scan finishes you have to scan the anoms in that area and single out the one he is in. Then you have to warp to that anom and get a point on the target.
All the above takes at minimum 30 seconds if you get lucky and a) the target is within scan range of the gate and b) you find the area he is in within 10 seconds. The reason the minimum is 20 is because of the 10 second system scan, and the 20 second accelerate to warp / decelerate out of warp.
If the ratter is in any way competent, he won't take 30 seconds to notice the new person in local and warp out of the anom.
Then, assuming you managed to catch someone, you have the task of actually killing the ratter. Which if you are in a stealth bomber is actually quite hard, and if you are in an interceptor you just call support so that isn't hard.
Do you think the ratter needs more help?
http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc
Elysian Empire
403
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:56:00 -
[21] - Quote
Oh big deal, so some lazypvp lamers will have to put in a bit more effort or use a different ship. Big deal.
We've been managing fine with npcs switching targets in wormhole space for years, and the stupid nullrats are STILL not going to be as aggressive or powerful as sleepers even after the changes |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1240
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Sladislov wrote:
It isn't non-challenging; If the ratter in question is paying attention, there is no way he can be caught.
Thats right, No way to get caught making boatloads of isk, they'll only lose ships when they stop paying attention
and go watch the newest episode of naruto while making spacebucks.
The NPCs are non-challenging. Whether you can catch another player while he isn't looking isn't changing with a change to NPC AI. If anything, the target might be paying *more* attention to the rats now, rather than his d-scan or local. But it certainly won't make him more aware of an enemy in system.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
274
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Capqu wrote:
Oh okay, my bad. I didn't realise you had come to that conclusion and that you were the authority on NPC targeting mechanics.
You sound worse than the carebears whining about this supposed nerf to their afk drones. Anything involving the non-sleeper AI is ridiculously easy right now. If it makes the ratter's job harder and the ganker's job harder, then good. CCP is making a ridiculously non-challenging aspect of the game more challenging. This is a good thing.
See, short-sightenness.
It DOESN'T make the ratter's job harder, it makes the ratters job easier and safer.
It also makes it potentially easier to AFK drones boats. We still gotta test it, but some of us were talking about simply putting an ECM Burst on a domi afk ratter/missioner (since EWAR generates the most threat) and letting it auto-repeat, while them afk domi reps its own drones ect ect. That may keep enough aggro off the drones to let the repper keep them alive.
So lets recap.
null and low sec pvp- nerf
easier and safer null sec ratting with pocket concord
easier afk mission running
ninja and alt salvaging nerf
ect ect
It's amazing that people can't see this coming.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
274
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 12:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:Eh, I can find ways around it so can you. Overall the bears and ratters are getting screwed in all the right places. You really don't think 99% of them are going to remember to leave a few frigate rats around for bombers when those are the rats causing them to micro manage their drones do ya?
I don't use drones in pve lol.
And you won't need to micro manage them if you know how to manage threat (ie put some ewar on your ship).
I'm taking it you haven't read anything about the changes.
|
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
949
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 13:04:00 -
[25] - Quote
Sladislov wrote:I believe another point is that with the AI changes, 2 mini professions (Ninja salvaging/baiting and solo/small gang player vs ratter) get flushed down the toilet with nothing in return.
They're actually taking care of that ninja salvaging/baiting thing pretty well with Crimewatch, by making theft of any kind result in a global suspect flag and possibly making the sentries shoot you as well.
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:Because Sansha hate Capsuleers just as much as say the HBC hates -A-.
If there was a fight between Two groups of players, both neutral to each other and another player who was neutral to both parties flew in who was easier to kill, you really think no-one would shoot him?
I certainly would, because I wouldn't even know he wasn't blue to you.
Common sense in military doctrine dictates that in the presence of a weaker mutual enemy, you concentrate on the stronger target unless you are the focus of both. You would disregard this because now, as a matter of public record, you are incapable of common sense in combat.
And also, I already see a way to flip this on the ratter entirely so this whole thread is probably irrelevant. WH people know what I'm talking about.
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc
Elysian Empire
403
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 13:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
On the subject of it making pve in nullsec easier... it's already so easy it's almost game breakingly stupid.
Fix local and then everything will be better |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1240
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 13:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
It DOESN'T make the ratter's job harder, it makes the ratters job easier and safer.
It also makes it potentially easier to AFK drones boats. We still gotta test it, but some of us were talking about simply putting an ECM Burst on a domi afk ratter/missioner (since EWAR generates the most threat) and letting it auto-repeat, while them afk domi reps its own drones ect ect. That may keep enough aggro off the drones to let the repper keep them alive.
So lets recap.
null and low sec pvp- nerf
easier and safer null sec ratting with pocket concord
easier afk mission running
ninja and alt salvaging nerf
ect ect
It's amazing that people can't see this coming.
Oh look, the PvE crowd is adapting already. That's not so hard now, is it?
Now if only those 'leet PvPizza guys had any PvE experience, they could probably adapt and be able to tackle something in a room full of NPCs too.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Capqu
Love Squad
Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
20
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 13:08:00 -
[28] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
It DOESN'T make the ratter's job harder, it makes the ratters job easier and safer.
It also makes it potentially easier to AFK drones boats. We still gotta test it, but some of us were talking about simply putting an ECM Burst on a domi afk ratter/missioner (since EWAR generates the most threat) and letting it auto-repeat, while them afk domi reps its own drones ect ect. That may keep enough aggro off the drones to let the repper keep them alive.
So lets recap.
null and low sec pvp- nerf
easier and safer null sec ratting with pocket concord
easier afk mission running
ninja and alt salvaging nerf
ect ect
It's amazing that people can't see this coming.
Oh look, the PvE crowd is adapting already. That's not so hard now, is it? Now if only those 'leet PvPizza guys had any PvE experience, they could probably adapt and be able to tackle something in a room full of NPCs too.
Adapt? I think you missed the part where CCP FoxFour explicitly stated soloing in a stealth bomber is dead and gone. How can you adapt that?
http://pizza.eve-kill.net |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1240
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 13:11:00 -
[29] - Quote
Capqu wrote:
Adapt? I think you missed the part where CCP FoxFour explicitly stated soloing in a stealth bomber is dead and gone. How can you adapt that?
Use a different ship. Use a new tactic. Come up with a different fitting.
Adapting involves change. Examine the possibilities, test theories, discard ones that don't work.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc
Elysian Empire
403
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 13:11:00 -
[30] - Quote
And lets not forget you can simply just wait for him to kill off the small things before decloaking and engaging. Or if he's saving them until last, wait until theres just a few left, decloak, point bear, kill rats, kill bear.
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