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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2005.03.11 11:44:00 -
[1]
With the talk of Dreadnoughts coming into the game able to fit XL turrets and probably have HUGE hitpoints im worried that these are going to become the new "battleship" (i.e everyone and their mother will fly one. The huge cost and skill training will only be a delaying factor because if these ships are going to be as tough as they seem to be everyone is going to fly them.
Ok, I've got some ideas on how to give dreadnoughts a very specific tactical use other than being the ultimate ship killing. (Note: the overall reasons for these ideas will be posted after so don't hit the flame button until you've read the whole post).
1) Running costs.
Make Dreadnoughts VERY costly to have active in space. Somthing like 3 or 4 mil an hour to run.
2) Give XL turrets terrible tracking. Make XL turrets unable to hit even battleships if they (the battleship) are moving.
3) Give Dreadnoughts penalties when they fit other sized guns (e.g. -%50 damage on large turrets, -%50 rof on large turrets).
I'm pretty sure I had some other ideas but I can't remember them atm. In any case they were the main ones.
The basic idea is to make Dreadnoughts anti-POS ships while still leaving the main fighting to battleships and other small ships, essentially making them large slow moving seige weapons.
The running costs prevents dreadnoughts being deployed when there is no reason and discourages using them from camping.
The turret tracking means that a group of battleships can take down a Dreadnought if it doesn't come with escorts becuase it's XL turrets cannot hit the moving ships. However, its turrets still remain effective against stationary targets such as POS defences and modules so it can still do its job.
The penalties on using other sized turrets prevent people from simply mounting one as a super bs killer by covering it in 16 (or whatever number of turrets it has) bs turrets instead of XL turrets.
When dreadnoughts come out if they are not given a specific role and are the final word in fleet combat then EVERYONE will work towards them and will eventually be flying one (the perfect example are battleships themselves).
Can you afford the running costs of deploying 50+ dreadnoughts?
Will it need escorts?
If you send a fleet of just dreadnoughts they will be vulnerable to fire from battleships without much in the way or retaliation since they cannot hit battleships. If you send in battleships to protect them you risk loosing some battleships to POS defences.
Destroying a POS should be somthing thats going to be costly even with dreadnoughts to discourage corps and alliance simply flying around "ganking" other corps pos for the fun of it, especially since it's not currently possible to hide a corp actively using a pos atm.
Anywho, these are just my thoughts on the upcoming Dreadnoughts. Feel free to add your own or debate mine.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it... |
Sarkos
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Posted - 2005.03.11 12:02:00 -
[2]
Dreadnaughts, unlike Battleships, are a 'niche' ship. They are to be, from what I have read, anti POS and POS defenders. As to your points, allow me to answer.
1) Highly unlikely, though the cost and training time for the skills needed will be huge, as will the cost for one, in either ISK or minerals to build one.
2)If current stations or gates are XL guns, we already know they can hit anything in range with deadly accuacy. I hope these are NOT the model for the upcoming XL weapons though, for they are far better in tracking than any weapon in the game. Personally I thing the DN is meant to fire from a stationary position only and will have massive penalties hitting a fast moving target, thus the need for the new Carrier to help defend it.
3)Rather than a negative for fitting other sized weapons, if current rules apply, it will only have a bonus with the XL weapons.
I do not think you will see these monsters becoming the 'do all' of the game as long as XL miners are never made. Today many people have gravitated away from the BS as more and more people fly HAC's and other T2 ships. A well set up HAC can take out a BS as it is, at half the cost, especially the tier 1 BS's. So I don't think you will see a lot of people risking thier billion ISK DN in a lot of combats, but that's my opinion.
Sarkos
Either free the slaves or we will come and get them.
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Toran Mehtar
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Posted - 2005.03.11 12:59:00 -
[3]
Make them very slow, and 'forget' to add in 1000mn abs and mwds, that should help.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.03.11 13:15:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Noriath on 11/03/2005 13:15:11
Yea, the operating costs shouldn't be huge by themselves, but Jumpdrives should require massive amounts of reactor fuel so taking a Dreadnaught from one side of the Galaxy to the other should not be without any cost, and because of that won't be done frequently without good reasons...
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.03.11 13:45:00 -
[5]
Dreadnoughts will require a warp drive to move between systems. This will have a cost. To me, that's all the "running costs" they really need.
Make them cost perhaps 750 mil, and XL weapons 30+ mil EACH. I agree XL weapon tracking should suck to the extent they have problems hitting battleships.
Thing is, they may only mount say 4 turrets. Make XL weapons VERY high damage, and you remove the need for a mass amount of weapons and make them relatively ineffective with other weapons like large guns (because they can mount less than a normal BS< and get no bonuses with them) and hence specialised for their role.
Equally, they should be 3-4x as tough as a BS. At least.
As for defences, XL weapons will likely outrange PoS ones. But, as you say people can warp in, try and kill the DNought and leave again. So it'll need escorts...and you can allways try and make em chase you into PoS weapon range, etc.
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2005.03.11 14:41:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 11/03/2005 14:42:27
If all you only can use them for is attacking POS then why even bother releasing them?
Nobody will permanently store something of high value in them (Apart from a few ships) and the ships youll lose attacking the POS will make it a waste of time and money.
As for everyone and their mom flying them; they should be able to hit Bs, they should have high hit points and they should only cost about 1 bill isk.
Of course, apart from their high hitpoints theyd be fairly unable to hit anything below HAC's.
What happens when 2 Deimos get near a Dread without fleet support?
Soon no more dread, itll take the Deimos some time since the dread has quite a few hps and assuming they cant jam jumpdrives.
If you wanna limit the amount of people flying them then limit Insurance on them.
Simply under the motto that insuring 1 bill isk ships is above the insurances companies budget.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Crunch Freeman
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Posted - 2005.03.11 16:05:00 -
[7]
LOL, this is too funny. A preemptive whine. Your ****ing and moaning about an object that isnĘt even in the game yetą.hahahah.
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Jayad
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Posted - 2005.03.11 16:09:00 -
[8]
Lets face it, CCP in most cases launch a new ship type that covers a very specific task, i agree with wild rho and dont see dreadnaughts replacing the battleship role in dynamic combat.
Dreadnaughts, it seems, need to fill the current role void of anti POS. Alternatly POS defence will need dreadnaughts too.
Dreadnaughts useing POS like fuel - thats a great idea RHO
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Amaron Ghant
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Posted - 2005.03.11 16:22:00 -
[9]
Here's a thought.
Make Dreadnaughts (and Titans when they finally arrive) NPC built only, then make em expensive. Voila; instant isk drain. No single corporation or conglomerate corners the market thus becoming so mega wealthy that isk lose all meaning to them.
Roids are a Menece I tell you, hunt then down I say, hunt them down!!
Amaron Ghant the Mad Caldari Miner |
DeGrand
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Posted - 2005.03.11 16:27:00 -
[10]
 Quote:
Dreadnought
BFS which uses X-Large turrets and is intended for an Anti-Battleship and Anti-Station/Starbase role. It will most likely feature Jumpdrive propulsion as most of the huge size ships.
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Raem Civrie
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Posted - 2005.03.11 17:16:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Amaron Ghant
Here's a thought.
Make Dreadnaughts (and Titans when they finally arrive) NPC built only, then make em expensive. Voila; instant isk drain. No single corporation or conglomerate corners the market thus becoming so mega wealthy that isk lose all meaning to them.
It'll be a tech 1 ship, hence the BPO will be sold by NPC's. No monopolies, price will be dictated by mineral costs after the initial price goes down (this will start to happen as soon as the BPO's hit the upper limits of usability in regards to min. eff.)
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Corvus Dove
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Posted - 2005.03.11 17:32:00 -
[12]
Beyond excessive costs, the DN, Carrier, and eventually the Titan will all have one thing already tied into the game that will limit their deployability. This will also limit their use, whether or not the market gets flooded with them:
The insurance payout on a destroyed ubership will suck compared to the loss of all equipment on the ship. If the ship is about 600mil and the turrets each cost about 25-30 mil, and the "advanced" versions of those turrets will cost around 60mil....
8 XL turrets = 240mil
8 XL named turrets = 480 mil
600mil plus about 75-100mil to insure = 700mil just to deploy.
That's a ship investment of at least 1bil, with standard equipment and ammo, or about 1.5 bil with the good stuff.
1.5 bil - 600mil insurance payout = deficit of 900mil. Would you risk losing 900mil as easily as you would risk losing 60mil on a T2 Battleship?
"You Griefer!!!" = "You Doodyhead!!!" |
DARTHEXIDOUS
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Posted - 2005.03.11 17:50:00 -
[13]
It seams everyone posting here is scared of what a DN can do when it comes to game i'll be happy with what ccp alicates its strengths to be it will be fun trying to blast it in my puny ship lolz.
It seams when a new ship comes to game theres those who winge as they are worried about being shot down what the hell its only a game liven up if its going to be a good ship for popping other ship's I say good on it bring it on DN ive a pressie for you lolz   
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Antic
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Posted - 2005.03.11 17:55:00 -
[14]
well battleships still have the advantage really. They can fit XL shield boosters/armor reps (when in game) and so on. And they are cheaper. Draeds cant oversize systems as they use the XL already as base.
If they are not useful in combat then theres no use in getting one due to their cost. So you will not see a delaying factor. You will see a toy factor like with the faction ships you get from missions now. Pepole will put em in hangars in empire space and only take them out for a spin when they wanna brag to n00bs.
So make them viable in combat and available. Or Eve stays stagnant in battleship vs battleship gank combat even after kali.
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mahhy
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Posted - 2005.03.11 18:06:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Wild Rho
With the talk of Dreadnoughts coming into the game able to fit XL turrets and probably have HUGE hitpoints im worried that these are going to become the new "battleship" (i.e everyone and their mother will fly one. The huge cost and skill training will only be a delaying factor because if these ships are going to be as tough as they seem to be everyone is going to fly them.
Personally I think the solution could be fairly simple. No insurance. None whatsoever. If they are to be POS killers, then it makes sense, since AFAIK theres no insurance for POSs.
Add in running costs etc, much like a POS, make 'em about a billion or two in ISK. Make 'em not very able to hit battleships, etc (and tune the damn POS sentries too!).
Then they have a specific role. They can't insta-kill other ships, but they can go toe to toe with other Dreads and/or POSs. If POS turrets are tuned so they aren't quite so devastating as they are now, I think it'd all work fairly well.
I'm sure as hell not gunna fly 1 or 2 billion woth of ship with no insurance for just any reason.
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Deadzone
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Posted - 2005.03.11 18:57:00 -
[16]
CCP will not make the mistake they made with BS in respect to making them easier than they thought they would be to obtain.
I would expect Dreads to cost over 1Bil and you will need some pretty extensive skill training.
As for guns, even if tracking sucks, distance will be your friend against a BS just as large turrets are atm against frigs and such @ 120km. Enough range and an XL turret will hit a cruiser, maybe a frig now and then. It's all dependant on the transversal velocity. Speed, yes, they will be slooooooow. Not putting in MWD's or AB for these size ships might actually be the right thing to do, although I don't like that idea as much. ( I like speed). But if this is the case, we need to be given more options to warp into places at greater ranges. We need to be given the options I think to warp in to anywhere at up to say 150km.
As for operating costs, this has actually been discussed for a LONG time, even in beta, for ALL ships. You need to pay your crew. You need to upkeep your ship. Etc etc. Personally, I really wish CCP would implement this as it is a) more realistic and b) helps get isk out of the game ( the whole inflation thing).
Vice-Admiral
Executive Commanding Officer
Military Command
Hadead Drive Yards |
Niko Succorso
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Posted - 2005.03.11 22:18:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Deadzone
As for guns, even if tracking sucks, distance will be your friend against a BS just as large turrets are atm against frigs and such @ 120km. Enough range and an XL turret will hit a cruiser, maybe a frig now and then.
And that's the way it should be. If you get jumped at close range by a gang of small ships, you're in trouble. Sure, if you hit them they go pop, but getting that hit will be tricky at best. I like the previous post about cost of replacement gear. It's only your ship that gets insured, and finding (let alone purchasing) replacement XL weapons will be tough. Dreads will be a niche ship - big niche, true, and nobody doubts the sheer power of their potential, but a niche ship nonetheless.
Originally by: Deadzone
As for operating costs, this has actually been discussed for a LONG time, even in beta, for ALL ships. You need to pay your crew. You need to upkeep your ship. Etc etc. Personally, I really wish CCP would implement this as it is a) more realistic and b) helps get isk out of the game ( the whole inflation thing).
Can't say I agree here. Having taken the time to read through some of the content in the Backstory section of this site, I found a reference to ships being crewed by one person - the pilot. Continuing on the "upkeep costs" - yes, I find it odd that stations in general don't take the opportunity to screw a few kreds out of every pilot that wants to take up space in dock, but generally, technology in EVE is advanced to the point where ships are self-sufficient, and aside from damage suffered by accident or intent, don't need much in the way of maintenance that the pilot can't take care of.
__________________
Interstellar joy-rider |
Selim
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Posted - 2005.03.11 22:45:00 -
[18]
Make them rarer than an honest politician
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digitalwanderer
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Posted - 2005.03.11 23:12:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Selim
Make them rarer than an honest politician
That would mean we'd never see one in our lifetime...
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2005.03.11 23:26:00 -
[20]
Thanks to everyone for the constructive feedback and alternate thoughts here.
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Dreadnoughts will require a warp drive to move between systems. This will have a cost. To me, that's all the "running costs" they really need.
If this is the case and they can't use jumpgates then that sounds pretty good to me as it means that a player needs to think before they hop in one and go gunning.
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Thing is, they may only mount say 4 turrets. Make XL weapons VERY high damage, and you remove the need for a mass amount of weapons and make them relatively ineffective with other weapons like large guns (because they can mount less than a normal BS< and get no bonuses with them) and hence specialised for their role.
I like that idea alot more than the one I suggested I gotta admit as it's a much simpler to implement than messing with a list of bonuses.
Originally by: Maya Rkell
As for defences, XL weapons will likely outrange PoS ones. But, as you say people can warp in, try and kill the DNought and leave again. So it'll need escorts...and you can allways try and make em chase you into PoS weapon range, etc.
Persoanlly I think it might be better if it's XL turrets had the same sort of range as the POS XL turrets so it wasnt simply a case of sniping a pos defences. It would encourage the use of support craft to keep the dreadnought going as it pounds the defences to maintain shields, armour and / or cap.
Originally by: Selim
Make them rarer than an honest politician
I'd agree although is really a matter of personal taste. Basically many of the older players who are still around will probably remember the days when everyone was in cruisers and frigs and seeing a battleship in action was truley a jaw dropping awe inspiring moment.
Sadly these days battleships are more common than cruisers (probably) and for myself I think it'd be good to have "super" ships that are rarely seen but really give you a brown trousers moment and cause a stir when you see one or even worse, see one in action (somthing that really is new's worthy so to speak).
The purchase cost and skill training is only a delaying factor not a limiting factor as these days you have alliances with multi billion isk wallets and many players themselves with either a billion or not far off it. That's my biggest concern of all, that if dreadnoughts basically wipe the floor with anything smaller (even battleships) with ease then everyone will fly them.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it... |
Grut
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Posted - 2005.03.11 23:54:00 -
[21]
no insurance would be nice at a couple of bil isk, noone in eve would be able to get more then a couple of em
Mostly harmless |
Jenz
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Posted - 2005.03.12 00:33:00 -
[22]
I wonder if we will see NPC dreads & titans in lvl 5 missions? or even in belts :D
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.03.12 00:48:00 -
[23]
Sure, we should have disposable titans everywhere...
*barf*
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Jeebs
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Posted - 2005.03.12 08:03:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Sarkos
I do not think you will see these monsters becoming the 'do all' of the game as long as XL miners are never made. Today many people have gravitated away from the BS as more and more people fly HAC's and other T2 ships. A well set up HAC can take out a BS as it is, at half the cost, especially the tier 1 BS's. So I don't think you will see a lot of people risking thier billion ISK DN in a lot of combats, but that's my opinion.
Where can i buy a HAC for 35 mil?
(\_/)
(x.x)
(> <) This was Bunny. Kill Bunny and stop him from achieving world domination. |
Farworth
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Posted - 2005.03.12 08:36:00 -
[25]
All I have to say is this:
dreadnought
n : battleship that has big guns all of the same caliber [syn: dreadnaught]
batĄtleĄship
n.
Any one of a class of warships of the largest size, carrying the greatest number of weapons and clad with the heaviest armor.
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Aralin
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Posted - 2005.03.12 08:41:00 -
[26]
Quote:
Make them rarer than an honest politician
Quote:
That would mean we'd never see one in our lifetime
Well I've seen one who I think is reasonably honest, if nothing else he will make me laugh .
Kinky for governor, why the hell not.
www.kinkyfriedman.com
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.03.12 08:44:00 -
[27]
Dreadnoughts will make todays battleships look like tomorrows cruisers.
XL Turrets will do to a battleship what L turrets do to cruisers.
That's my prediction..
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Fuse
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Posted - 2005.03.12 09:36:00 -
[28]
I pay to play this game and drive the nice ships. Just because you can't afford it does not mean everyone should be sorry they own a useless expensive piece of garbage. If you make the highly awaited dreads suck like these people want you to CCP this game will be worse off. The exclusionists don't like having fun they don't want other people to have fun. Making Dreadnoughts SLOW heavy expensive useless and rare will ruin the game and take the game off its successful track. Don't listen to people and just follow the Tech One and Tech Two models.
0.o It's not you... no wait it is you. |
Dau Imperius
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Posted - 2005.03.12 09:52:00 -
[29]
Did ya'll forget how to count with your 'leet' speak lessons?
Suddenly going from 125 Million isk BS's to 1 Billion isk Dreads ain't economically viable with the cost ratios.
Titans I'd expect to be above that price sure...but dreads realistically (since they will be NPC sold, not using your inflated and faulted player prices) will be around the above 500 Million mark, if you follow the NPC prices that insurance uses.
Anyways, ya'll are blabbing when the darn things haven't even reached us yet. We don't even have tech II BS's yet, so calm down. I'd rather wait to see what CCP will bring out THEN blab afterwards. No sense blurting out junk that is useless, since no one will be pleased no matter what they do.
Happens everytime they bring out new ships.
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VossKarr
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Posted - 2005.03.12 10:22:00 -
[30]
"Agreed" to the three posts^ before mine. 
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