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Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1362	Posted - 2012.10.07 00:37:00 - [1] - Quote In another thread about convo bombing it was reiterated that we aren't allowed to do anything that induces inordinate lag on players' clients. We were reminded that it's a violation of the EULA to jet cans in excess around jump gates because it induces lag. This is all true and good. I ask you, have you warped to an ice belt lately? They are literally teeming with these (now obsolete!) GSCs. Strangely, orcas and haulers are always present, taking ore from jetcans. Rare is the occasion a hauler approaches and accesses a GSC. Yet there they are. What are they there for? For storage? Unlikely, given their obsolescence? That man cans around a gate would get some investigation. That many cans around a gate could be said to lag clients. But we ignore it and let ice miners have smartbomb blockers that serve no other conceivable purpose anymore besides: 1) lag 2) griefing gankers Players in Eve should not be able to exploit old and outdated game mechanics to achieve invulnerability to an entire class of weapon, especially one with the restrictions already observed by the smartbomb. This is clearly an exploit, and should be treated as such. Why isn't it? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Touval Lysander Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 246	Posted - 2012.10.07 00:43:00 - [2] - Quote Darth Gustav wrote: 2) griefing gankers Absolutely agree on can clean up, around gates and belts regardless of motive. But I suspect many people have moved on and simply forgot they are there. No penalty to owning them. Maybe a recurring anchoring fee? And sorry mate. "Griefing gankers" is so lulz.... I lost countless ships and millions of isk on gank attempts. I did not blame CCP, Concord or the miner. I blamed me for bothering. I made more money.......... mining.
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1363	Posted - 2012.10.07 00:45:00 - [3] - Quote Touval Lysander wrote: Darth Gustav wrote: 2) griefing gankers Absolutely agree on can clean up, around gates and belts regardless of motive. But I suspect many people have moved on and simply forgot they are there. No penalty to owning them. Maybe a recurring anchoring fee? And sorry mate. "Griefing gankers" is so lulz.... I like the idea of them requiring fuel if their new purpose is going to be blocking smartbombs. And I thought everybody would enjoy "griefing gankers." It doesn't change that this is what's happening. [edit for your edit]Sure but good pilots just burn at them so that's really not my concern. [/edit for your edit] He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance 894	Posted - 2012.10.07 00:45:00 - [4] - Quote Are they actually causing lag? If so you can make a case there about an exploit. If not you're out of luck. But don't pretend these two issues are on the same scale, because they're not. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1363	Posted - 2012.10.07 00:47:00 - [5] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: Are they actually causing lag? If so you can make a case there about an exploit. If not you're out of luck. But don't pretend these two issues are on the same scale, because they're not. They most certainly cause lag. They outnumber the cans dropped in the gate scenario in most cases. Loading grid can be...tedious. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 107	Posted - 2012.10.07 01:04:00 - [6] - Quote In before lock of duplicate thread.
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1363	Posted - 2012.10.07 01:10:00 - [7] - Quote There is no duplication. In one thread I ask devs to buff smartbombs by allowing them to engage GSCs. In another I say the sheer number of GSCs is an exploit in and of itself. The two threads have entirely different content and message. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Fal Dara The Scope Gallente Federation 36	Posted - 2012.10.07 01:48:00 - [8] - Quote They expire after 30 days if no one has used them. If they're there... some one has used them in the last 30 days. There is already a mechanic to handle this. /thread.
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1364	Posted - 2012.10.07 01:50:00 - [9] - Quote Fal Dara wrote: They expire after 30 days if no one has used them. If they're there... some one has used them in the last 30 days. There is already a mechanic to handle this. /thread. Well yeah, people access them so they don't lose their free lag and smartbomb shield. Duh! Look, the ore bay on modern exhumers outclasses these things by around 8-10x. There is literally no reason for there to be so many of them. Yet, there they are. It's an exploit. How can we possibly be expected to believe they are using these things for storage now? It's utterly laughable. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Roll Sizzle Beef Space Mutiny 1155	Posted - 2012.10.07 01:54:00 - [10] - Quote As a go between from miner to industrial as not everyone has a orca with corp bays. jet cans cant be locked, and have a cool down.
Tweety Bird Tackled In Belt 26	Posted - 2012.10.07 01:55:00 - [11] - Quote Darth Gustav wrote: Well yeah, people access them so they don't lose their free lag and smartbomb shield. Duh! Look, the ore bay on modern exhumers outclasses these things by around 8-10x. There is literally no reason for there to be so many of them. Yet, there they are. It's an exploit. How can we possibly be expected to believe they are using these things for storage now? It's utterly laughable. *their
Fal Dara The Scope Gallente Federation 36	Posted - 2012.10.07 02:01:00 - [12] - Quote Darth Gustav wrote: How can we possibly be expected to believe they are using these things for storage now? It's utterly laughable. Becuase they would rather move 3 ice at a time through a secure can, over and over (every 2 minutes or so, actually, if the hauler camps the can) ... than use the risk of a jet can ... because, hey, jet cans can be stolen and agressed.... risk vs reward ... which is also 'effort vs reward' ... risk-avoidance requires more effort to avoid the ... risky bits. it's mining. ice. why should there be a mandatory risky bit? they are rewarded by avoiding the risk of jet cans. yes, it's a pain in the butt, but so is getting your ice stolen, or some dumb agression, or .. etc etc. this is a secure method of transftering to a hauler... without a jet can.
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1364	Posted - 2012.10.07 02:04:00 - [13] - Quote Fal Dara wrote: Darth Gustav wrote: How can we possibly be expected to believe they are using these things for storage now? It's utterly laughable. Becuase they would rather move 3 ice at a time through a secure can, over and over (every 2 minutes or so, actually, if the hauler camps the can) ... than use the risk of a jet can ... because, hey, jet cans can be stolen and agressed.... risk vs reward ... which is also 'effort vs reward' ... risk-avoidance requires more effort to avoid the ... risky bits. it's mining. ice. why should there be a mandatory risky bit? they are rewarded by avoiding the risk of jet cans. yes, it's a pain in the butt, but so is getting your ice stolen, or some dumb agression, or .. etc etc. this is a secure method of transftering to a hauler... without a jet can. This is no justification for the lag transferred to another player's client upon warping in, let alone the total invulnerability it happens to provide at the same time, risk-free. The glut of GSCs is clearly an exploit. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Smiknight The Plebian Republic 9	Posted - 2012.10.07 02:08:00 - [14] - Quote 1) The logs show nothing. 2) Griefing gankers? Reaching, at best. Do you understand how much resurrection hurts?
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1364	Posted - 2012.10.07 02:09:00 - [15] - Quote Smiknight wrote: 1) The logs show nothing. 2) Griefing gankers? Reaching, at best. You do not have the right to dictate my playstyle any more than I have the right to dictate yours. Therefore, as a ganker, I am as subject to griefing as any other profession. This is an utterly prejudiced and off-topic remark He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1364	Posted - 2012.10.07 02:19:00 - [16] - Quote Tweety Bird wrote: Darth Gustav wrote: Well yeah, people access them so they don't lose their free lag and smartbomb shield. Duh! Look, the ore bay on modern exhumers outclasses these things by around 8-10x. There is literally no reason for there to be so many of them. Yet, there they are. It's an exploit. How can we possibly be expected to believe they are using these things for storage now? It's utterly laughable. *their Come on. CCP could at least re-name them to Giant Secure Smartbomb Shields Plus Optional Storage Lag Not IntendedTM He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Touval Lysander Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 246	Posted - 2012.10.07 02:24:00 - [17] - Quote Darth Gustav wrote: Therefore, as a ganker, I am as subject to griefing as any other profession. No you're not. You create not only your own grief but that of others. Darth Gustav wrote: This is an utterly prejudiced and off-topic remark No it isn't. It's fair and reasonable. You suggested GSC's were "griefing gankers". And prejudice. Pfffttt... It's like a dealer blaming the cops if he gets his stash stolen. You strike me as the kind that would call them to lodge a complaint. Besides, settle down. I'm still trying to figure out how a GSC can grief a ganker. Maybe CCP should make them tank or take it away or something - I don't know anymore. I lost countless ships and millions of isk on gank attempts. I did not blame CCP, Concord or the miner. I blamed me for bothering. I made more money.......... mining.
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1364	Posted - 2012.10.07 02:26:00 - [18] - Quote Touval Lysander wrote: Darth Gustav wrote: Therefore, as a ganker, I am as subject to griefing as any other profession. No you're not. You create not only your own grief but that of others. Darth Gustav wrote: This is an utterly prejudiced and off-topic remark No it isn't. It's fair and reasonable. You suggested GSC's were "griefing gankers". And prejudice. Pfffttt... It's like a dealer blaming the cops if he gets his stash stolen. You strike me as the kind that would call them to lodge a complaint. Besides, settle down. I'm still trying to figure out how a GSC can grief a ganker. Maybe CCP should make them tank or take it away or something - I don't know anymore. Because real life analogies also cause lag in Eve Online and prevent specific module activation in a convenient "shield" configuration. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Touval Lysander Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 246	Posted - 2012.10.07 02:42:00 - [19] - Quote Darth Gustav wrote: Touval Lysander wrote: Darth Gustav wrote: Therefore, as a ganker, I am as subject to griefing as any other profession. No you're not. You create not only your own grief but that of others. Darth Gustav wrote: This is an utterly prejudiced and off-topic remark No it isn't. It's fair and reasonable. You suggested GSC's were "griefing gankers". And prejudice. Pfffttt... It's like a dealer blaming the cops if he gets his stash stolen. You strike me as the kind that would call them to lodge a complaint. Besides, settle down. I'm still trying to figure out how a GSC can grief a ganker. Maybe CCP should make them tank or take it away or something - I don't know anymore. Because real life analogies also cause lag in Eve Online and prevent specific module activation in a convenient "shield" configuration. So you're saying that someone puts up GSC's to cause you lag so you can't smartbomb their entire operation and it's an exploit?! I'd be having a chat to ISP, not CCP. I lost countless ships and millions of isk on gank attempts. I did not blame CCP, Concord or the miner. I blamed me for bothering. I made more money.......... mining.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2	Posted - 2012.10.07 03:20:00 - [20] - Quote Solution. NPC Corp members can't anchor containers. Hey presto, all solved. Now if they annoy you, you can go and wardec them to blow them up. If you don't want to wardec them, obviously they weren't really causing you any issues anyway.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1543	Posted - 2012.10.07 05:08:00 - [21] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Solution. NPC Corp members can't anchor containers. Hey presto, all solved. Now if they annoy you, you can go and wardec them to blow them up. If you don't want to wardec them, obviously they weren't really causing you any issues anyway. What happens if a corp with GSCs anchored disbands? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1364	Posted - 2012.10.07 06:07:00 - [22] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Nevyn Auscent wrote: Solution. NPC Corp members can't anchor containers. Hey presto, all solved. Now if they annoy you, you can go and wardec them to blow them up. If you don't want to wardec them, obviously they weren't really causing you any issues anyway. What happens if a corp with GSCs anchored disbands? Why would anybody need room for 3 ice blocks when their hold can fit 27? It makes no sense unless these are being used to grief gankers. Which they are. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 6	Posted - 2012.10.07 06:41:00 - [23] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Nevyn Auscent wrote: Solution. NPC Corp members can't anchor containers. Hey presto, all solved. Now if they annoy you, you can go and wardec them to blow them up. If you don't want to wardec them, obviously they weren't really causing you any issues anyway. What happens if a corp with GSCs anchored disbands? GSC's start a 24 hour unanchor process or something like that. Gives a short time to recover them, otherwise, they become lost, same as if they hadn't been accessed recently. Also happens to increase turn over on them for industrialists.
Ifly Uwalk Empire Tax Collection Agency 321	Posted - 2012.10.07 07:03:00 - [24] - Quote I feel griefed by this thread. Remove OP. Permanently.
cheeze35 Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 19	Posted - 2012.10.07 07:09:00 - [25] - Quote Darth Gustav wrote: Touval Lysander wrote: Darth Gustav wrote: Therefore, as a ganker, I am as subject to griefing as any other profession. No you're not. You create not only your own grief but that of others. Darth Gustav wrote: This is an utterly prejudiced and off-topic remark No it isn't. It's fair and reasonable. You suggested GSC's were "griefing gankers". And prejudice. Pfffttt... It's like a dealer blaming the cops if he gets his stash stolen. You strike me as the kind that would call them to lodge a complaint. Besides, settle down. I'm still trying to figure out how a GSC can grief a ganker. Maybe CCP should make them tank or take it away or something - I don't know anymore. Because real life analogies also cause lag in Eve Online and prevent specific module activation in a convenient "shield" configuration. Why does it appear you're the only one whining about it? And...another Mittens alt?
Mallak Azaria GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 722	Posted - 2012.10.07 07:18:00 - [26] - Quote Using the term "griefing gankers" basically killed any chance this thread had. I can agree that GSC's stopping smartbombs from being used is a stupid mechanic & miners are taking advantage of this, but you need to put the argument forth in a more reasonable way. Mining Barge buff: CCP-áhas acknowledged that miners in general-áare too stupid to make the correct fitting choices to make ganking them unprofitable.
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1365	Posted - 2012.10.07 08:11:00 - [27] - Quote Mallak Azaria wrote: Using the term "griefing gankers" basically killed any chance this thread had. I can agree that GSC's stopping smartbombs from being used is a stupid mechanic & miners are taking advantage of this, but you need to put the argument forth in a more reasonable way. I'm not sure I see why. Are you saying that it's not possible to grief ganker? This is Eve Online where gank play is legitimate play. It's this whole profession, too. But grief play is not. Even a ganker can be griefed. Still, if there's a better way to frame the argument, by all means we need to do it. How else do you describe exploits preventing players from playing their game, though? It's an exploit that targets gankers, therefore, gankers are being griefed by it. It may seem silly, but the rules are just as applicable for miners as they are for, well, anybody else. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Mallak Azaria GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 723	Posted - 2012.10.07 08:14:00 - [28] - Quote Present the argument in a better manner & I'll happily support you. Mining Barge buff: CCP-áhas acknowledged that miners in general-áare too stupid to make the correct fitting choices to make ganking them unprofitable.
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1365	Posted - 2012.10.07 08:24:00 - [29] - Quote Mallak Azaria wrote: Present the argument in a better manner & I'll happily support you. The cans don't create lag unless you happen to be playing EVE on a 100mhz pentium 1 released in 1996 with a 14.4kbps modem. You can always have someone in a 100mn MWD SFI bump them away before you attack too. Regarding lag, I think that's highly debatable. I've got a Core i7 3GHz (8 cores) and 12GB of ram, dual nvidia 380 video cards and the cans cause my client to nearly stop responding prior to loading grid. That's because there are literally hundreds of cans in these ice belts. As for having extra people bump miners out of their shield before smartbombing them, that seems totally reasonable. However, littering space with over a hundred GSCs doesn't. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Mallak Azaria GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 723	Posted - 2012.10.07 08:36:00 - [30] - Quote Darth Gustav wrote: Mallak Azaria wrote: Present the argument in a better manner & I'll happily support you. The cans don't create lag unless you happen to be playing EVE on a 100mhz pentium 1 released in 1996 with a 14.4kbps modem. You can always have someone in a 100mn MWD SFI bump them away before you attack too. Regarding lag, I think that's highly debatable. I've got a Core i7 3GHz (8 cores) and 12GB of ram, dual nvidia 380 video cards and the cans cause my client to nearly stop responding prior to loading grid. That's because there are literally hundreds of cans in these ice belts. As for having extra people bump miners out of their shield before smartbombing them, that seems totally reasonable. However, littering space with over a hundred GSCs doesn't. My computer is nearly 7 years old & I don't experience any of that. What I can tell you is having 2 video cards doesn't work as advertised & you're no better off than you would be with just one, unless you're running multiple screens & have the hardware setup accordingly. Littering space with hundred of GSC's is not reasonable, although this is probably something better discussed in the Features & Ideas section of the forum. Mining Barge buff: CCP-áhas acknowledged that miners in general-áare too stupid to make the correct fitting choices to make ganking them unprofitable.

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