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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4918
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Posted - 2012.10.16 09:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Omega Sunset wrote:Tippia wrote:that this line of argumentation only ever proves that something is in desperate need of being nerfedGǪ ehh... it's a personal preference, as in I don't snipe or op tornados etc. I don't get the bonus on my non-ecm ships, thus the ready to blow out an expensive component to survive, comment. It's what stops me in my ecm ships anyway, to warp out or get distance with my mwd. Even a snipe can be nasty in a flying origami. If you ever do ecm support, you know you don't have slots to spare for most anything else. And that may all be true. My point is that the instant you hear the Gǣbring some of your ownGǥ argument, you know that whatever it is you're talking about is up for the chop. It means we have an apex-predator kind of situation, and those are deeply undesirable in a working game. It was the same situation (and the same argument) we saw with nanos, with supercaps, with neuts, withGǪ [etc]. It has become an increasingly common argument for leaving ECM alone, and that really only points to one thing: it will not be left alone.
So I fought against this other fleet and they won because they had more DPS and tank. And they were all "bring more DPS and tank" at us
NERF DPS AND TANK! MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Ur235
Aura of Darkness Nulli Secunda
43
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Posted - 2012.10.16 09:40:00 -
[32] - Quote
ECM is awesome never get rid of it, we need ships like this to keep 0.0 warfare interesting and work agaisnt the blob. And yes there is a counter to ECM ships sniper ships that fire at over 120km, once a scorps jammer range goes beyond 120km the effectivness really drops off. Solar and co knew this and they would have probably destroyed most of those scorpions, however Gypsys bomber fleet knew this aswell and decided to remove them froim the battle. If they hadnt done that most of those scorps would probably have been dead Scorps, the single biggest problem with ECM is ECM alts that solo players use to win a fight thats there one and only problem. They are perfectley viable for big fleet engagements hmm |
Marzuq
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
21
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Posted - 2012.10.16 09:43:00 -
[33] - Quote
Ur235 wrote:the single biggest problem with ECM is ECM alts that solo players use to win a fight thats there one and only problem. They are perfectley viable for big fleet engagements
To argue for that what if he had a oneiros or scimitar alt? The result would be similar. If you want to fix this problem you would make only one account valid per household. But CCP wants to make money, so that isn't the case.
If there multiple people on field the ECM ship needs a good amount of attention or it goes pop, dual boxing is not a way for that. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9896
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Posted - 2012.10.16 09:45:00 -
[34] - Quote
Marzuq wrote:Just like Logi's bring some of your own. GǪexcept not, since bringing your own logis doesn't let you deal with the problem of the enemy having logis. Quite the opposite, in fact GÇö it just means nothing happens.
Malcanis wrote:So I fought against this other fleet and they won because they had more DPS and tank. And they were all "bring more DPS and tank" at us NERF DPS AND TANK! If they bring everything, then yes, bringing more of everything is perhaps the best solution, but as luck would have it, everything is also being nerfed, if the forums are to be believed. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Omega Sunset
Caldari Roughnecks
62
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Posted - 2012.10.16 09:49:00 -
[35] - Quote
Tippia wrote:And that may all be true. Certainly is. I don't have much in the way of drone skills, so that's off my list. Although my ewar is maxed, so sounds like a simple choice for me depending on the situation or ship.
It's really simple as I see it, it has about the same effect as poison causing players to freak out like in other games. It's psychological. That's good, that's good, an abundance of more tears to harvest. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9896
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Posted - 2012.10.16 10:11:00 -
[36] - Quote
Omega Sunset wrote:It's really simple as I see it, it has about the same effect as poison causing players to freak out like in other games. It's psychological. That's good, that's good, an abundance of more tears to harvest. No, it's not poison GÇö it's stun: it's leaving the player without control for 20 seconds. It is not a matter of GÇ£freaking outGÇ¥ but of being frustrated with the mechanics, and it's not good design in any sense of the word.
On top of that, there's the random and binary nature of the effect, and the vast scope of that effect, all of which are also points of bad design. It provides no room for gradation and counter-gradation, but rather operates on a statistical effects, which is far harder to balance and to provide options for (or against). It also obsoletes numerous other forms of ewar.
There is, all in all, pretty much no redeeming features of the ECM mechanic in EVE. It's just bad, through and through. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
103
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Posted - 2012.10.16 10:26:00 -
[37] - Quote
See, I had this alternative idea about ECM that would remove this silly chance-based......aah to hell with it. Can't teach old dogs new tricks. Can't shoot old dogs either. The latter is so needed to be frank. |
Omega Sunset
Caldari Roughnecks
62
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Posted - 2012.10.16 11:15:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tippia wrote:No, it's not poison Sure it is. It has all the traits of the rogue weapon, such as poison. It doesn't paralyze, fof is one such counter. Drones are another. This has all been mentioned already. Snipers are out of range just in like other mmo's. Like poison, it has the psychological effect as poison delivers in other games, mostly being helplessness to those who choose to be unprepared to counter it. Thus impending death or run away. ECM is quite brilliant, and such as in other games that have rogue skills, it's quite disliked. We want everything simple like WoW, predefined skill sets and limited pieces on the chess board. No thanks.
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Cede Forster
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
120
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Posted - 2012.10.16 11:17:00 -
[39] - Quote
Oh, it is that thread again. The only thing new is that now ECM haters even make sucky ECM support threads to make "CCP's ears bleed"
Would not read again.
Let's just play the game instead of freaking whining about it all day long. I can imagine how you play monopoly.
"I dont think that street should be worth that much." "Hotels need to be nerfed" "This Start Field is creating too much income."
Just goddamn play the game already. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9899
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Posted - 2012.10.16 11:25:00 -
[40] - Quote
Omega Sunset wrote:Sure it is. It has all the traits of the rogue weapon, such as poison. It doesn't paralyze, fof is one such counter. Drones are another. GǪexcept that it holds all the properties of stun and none of poison: it does no damage but leaves you unable to take any of the offensive measures you'd normally be able to do. Drones don't help because they must be targeted while you have a lock (which you don't). FoFs are not a counter because they are limited to a few weapon systems, for which they are truly awful.
The GÇ£excellentGÇ¥ (read horrible) effects you're after could be had through other means if that's what you're really after, but ECM is not the way to do it because of its fundamentally flawed mechanics of application, effect, counter, and overlap with other, supposedly equal effects. So no, even if it had the effects you think of (which it doesn't), it would still have no redeemable features. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
36
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Posted - 2012.10.16 11:26:00 -
[41] - Quote
How about if ECM reduced the number of locked targets?
t2 or higher meta level or faction ECM reduces number of locked targets by more (than for meta-0 ECM). ECM of innappropriate sensor type reduces number of locked targets by less.
That sort of thing?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9899
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Posted - 2012.10.16 11:35:00 -
[42] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:How about if ECM reduced the number of locked targets? It's better, because you're moving out of binary territory, but you're still affecting a very low discrete number, and one where losing a bunch of them don't matter all that much so it runs the risk of making it pretty pointless. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
103
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Posted - 2012.10.16 11:42:00 -
[43] - Quote
Aaaand I still say ECM and the inability to lock a target should be related to sig radius/distances. That eliminates the binary issue and chance based completely, and like all other electronic warfare it will be a constant effect.
That way a player will be put out of commission completely ONLY if he's being spammed with multiple ECM modules constantly.
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Omega Sunset
Caldari Roughnecks
62
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Posted - 2012.10.16 11:54:00 -
[44] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:We want everything simple like WoW, predefined skill sets and limited pieces on the chess board. No thanks. Obviously. Why else would you argue in favour of a mechanic that reduces the useful parts of the game; that employs fundamentally flawed design principles for the ease of implementation; that removes gameplay and relies on affecting the player rather than the game itself. None of the simplistic mechanics have a place in a game that prides itself on complexity and choice, such as EVE. I fixed my quote since you hacked off the end. ECM adds dynamic, in fact I'm all for adding more unique professions/skill sets that can change things on the battlefield. For you, wOw is that way ---> |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9900
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Posted - 2012.10.16 12:03:00 -
[45] - Quote
Omega Sunset wrote:I fixed my quote since you hacked off the end. Nah. I just removed your sarcasm. Since you're arguing for a more simplistic game and hold up WoW as an example of such simple games, the whole GÇ£no, I don't want thatGÇ¥ can't be seen as anything else.
Quote:in fact I'm all for adding more unique professions/skill sets that can change things on the battlefield. So you're all for removing ECM in its current form, then, since it removes numerous dynamics from the game. It overrides and obsoletes other professions and skill sets by doing their job better. It also removes player interaction with the game. It also removes the devs' ability to fine-tune balance.
Quote:For me, wOw is that way ---> Feel free to leave if you want those kinds of simplistic mechanics and the lack of choice they generate.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
94
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Posted - 2012.10.16 12:17:00 -
[46] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:How about if ECM reduced the number of locked targets?
t2 or higher meta level or faction ECM reduces number of locked targets by more (than for meta-0 ECM). ECM of innappropriate sensor type reduces number of locked targets by less.
That sort of thing?
It's been suggested before, in a few different formats The "ecm is OP brigade" werent happy with them either "homegenous gameplay/ship design" is boring as a concept in warfare, ecm is perfectly fine
but back on topic, to be worthwhile, you'd have to be able to shutdown a large slice of the targets 'lock slots' base 2 targetting +5 multitasking +5 autotarget system +3
is the pilot side of it, and all ships have a #maxlockedtarget value
the latter should be the value that gets reduced.
because then youve made ecm like sensor dampners reduced targets compared to reduced range yay for homegenuity
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Omega Sunset
Caldari Roughnecks
62
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Posted - 2012.10.16 12:36:00 -
[47] - Quote
This thread is so WoWified, I can almost count the classes. Huuunter... Waaaarior.... Oh, Raaaaid... Baaatlegrounds.... WoW --> |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9900
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Posted - 2012.10.16 12:40:00 -
[48] - Quote
Omega Sunset wrote:This thread is so WoWified, I can almost count the classes. Huuunter... Waaaarior.... Oh, Raaaaid... Baaatlegrounds.... WoW --> Bye bye then. I'd say GÇ£see you thereGÇ¥, but those kinds of simplistic games aren't my cup of tea so we won't.
I prefer games where combined ops and never quite knowing what you're going up against is the standard, and the removal of one-size-fits-all and cookie-cutter mechanics such as the current ECM would reinforce that kind of gameplay. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Gypsio III
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
398
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Posted - 2012.10.16 12:58:00 -
[49] - Quote
Tippia wrote:
On top of that, there's the random and binary nature of the effect, and the vast scope of that effect, all of which are also points of bad design. It provides no room for gradation and counter-gradation, but rather operates on a statistical effects, which is far harder to balance and to provide options for (or against). It also obsoletes numerous other forms of ewar.
There is, all in all, pretty much no redeeming features of the ECM mechanic in EVE. It's just bad, through and through.
Perfect post. The problem is less the power of ECM boats and their counters, and more the fact that ECM itself is such a terrible, hopelessly binary mechanic.
There is some scope for improvement by making ECM reduce your total number of lockable targets. But an alternative is to just get rid of ECM entirely. Move RSD from Gallente to Caldari, with suitably beefed-up strength bonuses, resulting in an ECM-like RSD effect that can be mitigated by piloting and positioning and doesn't lend itself to being a remote-WCS. Then give Gallente a missile-TD ewar, to keep that as a system separate to Amarr TDs (which will be flat overpowered if they affect missiles as well as turrets). Finally, and to help replace ECM's logistics-suppression role, give Caldari a proper secondary ewar of remote-logistics interference, reducing the rep range and transfer amount of a targeted ship's remote assistance modules, subjected to normal stacking penalties. |
Kari Juptris
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
24
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Posted - 2012.10.16 13:30:00 -
[50] - Quote
Yeah, let's nerf ECM into the ground. Oh wait, CCP already did.
ECM ships are annoying. I get it. Do you want to know how to deal with them? You sneeze in their direction and giggle as they explode. Have any of you people complaining about ECM actually flown an ECM boat? When I first moved to nullsec ECM boats were my primary ship type.
Seriously, just light a fire under their feet and watch them die or run, and a running ECM boat is as effective as a dead one. I actually stopped flying ECM for general fleets because I was tired of getting called primary as soon as I hit the field.
edit: I read this thread against and for the most part all I see are a bunch of bads whining about how they can't use their heads to come up with a simple solution remove the ECM from the field.
It's simple: we kill the batman. |
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Tobiaz
Spacerats
686
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Posted - 2012.10.16 14:38:00 -
[51] - Quote
Fix to balance ECM:
- Reduce cycle to 10 seconds. - Give drones the option to focus on enemy ECM on your ship (and fix them sitting idle when deployed after jammed)
That's all. Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
1460
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 22:06:00 -
[52] - Quote
Falcon pilot has a specific racial jammer on you overloaded and jams you for 20 seconds.
Drake puts a small ECM drone on you and jams you for 20 seconds.
...
So no one sees an issue here?
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Marzuq
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
22
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Posted - 2012.10.16 23:00:00 -
[53] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Falcon pilot has a specific racial jammer on you overloaded and jams you for 20 seconds.
Drake puts a small ECM drone on you and jams you for 20 seconds.
...
So no one sees an issue here?
ECM drones are more of a problem than ecm itself. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
348
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Posted - 2012.10.16 23:04:00 -
[54] - Quote
ECM is really strong in small scale engagements but in most engagements they die very easily. Tier 3 BCs were maybe the biggest nerf to ecm ever, just one tornado can almost volley an ECM range ship. The complete 20s shutdown of your ship is ridiculous and should be nerfed but ECM is not nearly as bad as it was years ago.
Logistics are long overdue for a nerf along with warfare links and t3 cruisers and HMLs. There's a reason why multiple logi are not allowed in alliance tournaments - because it makes the game lame.
Oh yeah and ecm drones were never nerfed when the ecm modules were, that definitely needs a fix but good luck getting CCP to realize this. |
Korinne
The Partisan Brigade Republic Alliance
36
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Posted - 2012.10.16 23:27:00 -
[55] - Quote
There is nothing really wrong w/ ECM, it works fine as it is, and it is by far not op; especially considering that the Scorp now has **** ecm effectiveness, so the only powerful ecm ships are paper thin (falcon/rook). If anything, the problem is more w/ ecm drones than ecm boats. If you wanna fix a broken mechanic, fix the fact that Tornado's make the Maelstrom obsolete, or 100mn Tengus. |
Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
510
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Posted - 2012.10.17 00:05:00 -
[56] - Quote
Neuts, sensor damps... now change ecm because there are other counters Christmas wish list https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134275 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
fr0gout
The Scope Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2012.10.17 01:18:00 -
[57] - Quote
As long as there is horribly inbalanced mechanic 1 I should be able to hang onto my horribly inbalanced mechanic 2!!
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Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
144
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Posted - 2012.10.17 02:20:00 -
[58] - Quote
Crazy idea here.
Instead of a Falcon, fly an Arazu. Damps are a ***** to deal with. The Logi is forced off the field (because their lock is blwon to ****) and if they're stupid, they fly closer allowing you to get a sexy point on them! Yayyyyyyy! |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
1462
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Posted - 2012.10.17 02:28:00 -
[59] - Quote
Anya Klibor wrote:Crazy idea here.
Instead of a Falcon, fly an Arazu. Damps are a ***** to deal with. The Logi is forced off the field (because their lock is blwon to ****) and if they're stupid, they fly closer allowing you to get a sexy point on them! Yayyyyyyy! Why damp when you can jam? Why paint when you can jam? Why tracking disrupt when you can jam?
Why are the top three non-damage drones used all three sizes of ECM drones? And by top three I mean by so much that the fourth used is not even remotely close to the third most used. Speaks volumes on the mechanic don't you think?
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5169
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Posted - 2012.10.17 03:49:00 -
[60] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:Anya Klibor wrote:Crazy idea here.
Instead of a Falcon, fly an Arazu. Damps are a ***** to deal with. The Logi is forced off the field (because their lock is blwon to ****) and if they're stupid, they fly closer allowing you to get a sexy point on them! Yayyyyyyy! Why damp when you can jam? Why paint when you can jam? Why tracking disrupt when you can jam? Why are the top three non-damage drones used all three sizes of ECM drones? And by top three I mean by so much that the fourth used is not even remotely close to the third most used. Speaks volumes on the mechanic don't you think?
Because dampeners, painters and tracking disruptors are not chance-based and thus do not inherently depend on bonused hulls? This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Federation posting cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online posting.
fofofofofo |
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