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Empire wars. Lag fest always?

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KIAEddZ	Posted - 2005.03.28 22:21:00 - [1] Tonight saw a major engagement with one of our enemies in Nonni. We have had Fleet engagements a LOT this week, with very little trouble, but not in a big system like Nonni. Each of the previous engagements have been fine, but tonights was ridiculously bad. My question is, why do Nonni and Jita etc etc not have a more powerful/dedicated server? We lost a lot of ships tonight, and have petitioned them all, we will/have already recieve them all back I am sure, just as our enemies have also, but if empire wars are to be fun, the major trade systems really do need some loving. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=176347 www.kia-corp.co.uk/killboard CEO of KIA Corp - Been doing it for the Laydeez since 1993, now we i
Jasmine Constantine	Posted - 2005.03.28 22:30:00 - [2] Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 28/03/2005 22:31:37 Why would you get ships back for lag kills? Its something that happens to all of us. Not trying to be funny but its the game mate. If you warp to a gate where a lot of people are camping you get locked and popped and killed before your client loads a lot of the time. Thats the current state of gankaggedon insta-lock warfare for you. I bet every poor carebear hauler gets popped like that doesn't petition. Why should it be different for pvp corps? Star Fraction
KIAEddZ	Posted - 2005.03.28 22:33:00 - [3] Edited by: KIAEddZ on 28/03/2005 22:37:18 sigh Please don't let the focus of this thread be about our petitions. I am trying to get some constructive discussion on the state of wars in empire, and battles in large filled systems. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=176347 www.kia-corp.co.uk/killboard CEO of KIA Corp - Been doing it for the Laydeez since 1993, now we i
Geoff W	Posted - 2005.03.28 22:36:00 - [4] Edited by: Geoff W on 28/03/2005 22:36:51 Originally by: KIAEddZ sigh Please don't let the focus of this thread be about our petitions. I am trying to get some constructive discussion on the state of wars in empire, and battles in large filled systems. You just cant help yourself can you, i guess its in the surname. populated systems e.g Yulai, Niyab, Jita allways lag to crap for me, once they get over about 50 people in. like 10 second lag on modules etc...
Jasmine Constantine	Posted - 2005.03.28 22:41:00 - [5] Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 28/03/2005 22:41:02 Originally by: Geoff W Edited by: Geoff W on 28/03/2005 22:36:51 Originally by: KIAEddZ sigh Please don't let the focus of this thread be about our petitions. I am trying to get some constructive discussion on the state of wars in empire, and battles in large filled systems. You just cant help yourself can you, i guess its in the surname. populated systems e.g Yulai, Niyab, Jita allways lag to crap for me, once they get over about 50 people in. like 10 second lag on modules etc... Yeah its just the game. In that hideous agent running system whatever its called it takes about 2mins to load siege launchers. God only knows what it would be like to fight there. But seriously.... its the state of the game. YOu know I was very adamandly opposed to all the people that got their ships back for playing in Exodus week too. If you know its gonna be laggy and you still choose to fight you should take the losses you get in my opinion. Star Fraction
Velsharoon	Posted - 2005.03.28 22:43:00 - [6] Lags always bad around the highway, concord has killed more of our ships than some corps :D However at certain times there are lag spikes, ccp can recognise these and refund ships But dont petition every loss etc, sometimes u just lose ships the old fashioned way
KIAEddZ	Posted - 2005.03.28 22:46:00 - [7] Petitioning every loss would be ridiculous. But in this case the petitions from both sides are warranted. CTD and massive lag for both sides. So are the big systems (Yulai Nonni Jita etc) not given more resource than the smaller empire systems? http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=176347 www.kia-corp.co.uk/killboard CEO of KIA Corp - Been doing it for the Laydeez since 1993, now we i
The Cosmopolite	Posted - 2005.03.28 22:49:00 - [8] Originally by: KIAEddZ My question is, why do Nonni and Jita etc etc not have a more powerful/dedicated server? My suspicion is that it just doesn't work like that. I basically think this is a software issue more than anything and the current code can't cope adequately. I think that is the truth behind a lot of issues in this game because as far I can see CCP have thrown servers in numbers at various problems but the problems remain. As to the general point about gates in busy systems: always a lag risk for blob-war and this is, IMO, unlikely to change anytime soon. It is also true that petitioning losses of this kind is unlikely to get results you will like as there is no reliable way, as I understand it, for GMs to determine if the loss is from lag or not from the logs. You might get lucky. If you do, good as no-one deserves to lose ships to lag. If I were you, though, I would expect it to happen again if you continue to blob up in Nonni, Yulai, etc. The Cosmopolite The Star Fraction - Executor CEO: Jade Constantine
Risiru	Posted - 2005.03.28 22:51:00 - [9] Edited by: Risiru on 28/03/2005 22:51:30 Originally by: KIAEddZ Petitioning every loss would be ridiculous. But in this case the petitions from both sides are warranted. CTD and massive lag for both sides. So are the big systems (Yulai Nonni Jita etc) not given more resource than the smaller empire systems? Sorry for hijacking. But is that's true one could petition of nearly every loss (both sides) in fleet battles in the last month (at least it has been lagging in fleet battles of G in the north)
TRIGGER	Posted - 2005.03.28 22:52:00 - [10] 1. there was no lag 2. u got pwned masterfully 3. i lost a poc due to ctd but there ya go 6. can u pls undock 8. i cant count 21b. spring rolls (2)
Valdi	Posted - 2005.03.28 22:53:00 - [11] Originally by: TRIGGER 1. there was no lag 2. u got pwned masterfully 3. i lost a poc due to ctd but there ya go 6. can u pls undock 8. i cant count 21b. spring rolls (2) yub.. there was no lag for me,, and usually im laggin my ass offf --- We just came to crush... Director of Recruitment
Leyla Anshley	Posted - 2005.03.28 22:56:00 - [12] i was ok with lags. i mean had none. and yeh.. plz undock.
Lowa	Posted - 2005.03.28 22:58:00 - [13] For me the only real lag is in Niyabainen. Even moving through is a pain. The surrounding systems seems fairly ok but not perfect by any means. Why do I feel like we've had this conversation before? But then it was for 0.0! You can run but you cant hide - there is NO escaping the Lag! Cheers, LOWA Oh! Yeah! Huh! MC - Going funky all over your clone baby!
Felony Assualt	Posted - 2005.03.28 22:59:00 - [14] Originally by: TRIGGER 1. there was no lag 2. u got pwned masterfully 3. i lost a poc due to ctd but there ya go 6. can u pls undock 8. i cant count 21b. spring rolls (2) I do believe that about sums it all up. I dont think hes missing anything Those who can, do; Those who cant, teach
ElvisLives	Posted - 2005.03.28 23:00:00 - [15] i aggree, there was no lag, and i aggree again, pls undock 8)
KIAEddZ	Posted - 2005.03.28 23:01:00 - [16] sigh http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=176347 www.kia-corp.co.uk/killboard CEO of KIA Corp - Been doing it for the Laydeez since 1993, now we i
Hakera	Posted - 2005.03.28 23:07:00 - [17] yeah lags a part of life, but we try to avoid high load systems. For eg in our manoverig before I went on holiday I pulled the gang back to kemerk because jita is too laggy to fight in. I know you cant always control the battlefield, but try and avoid certain systems like rens/jita or camping them or their gates. Most of the time, the lag isnt awful. It can get slow sometimes, which matters lots for projectile/hybrid users as the dps is lowered further as the reload is lengthened. But then again I normally fight in small gangs and avoid blob fights. I dont like them personally, not much of a fight if your just ganking ships every 30 seconds imo. The lag has improved quite a lot in recent times as my own experience goes. I mean it cant get any worse than the criminal flag lag times! Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
D'Artagnan	Posted - 2005.03.28 23:18:00 - [18] Edited by: D''Artagnan on 28/03/2005 23:19:02 Originally by: TRIGGER 3. i lost a poc due to ctd but there ya go funny that because you logged back on and wrote CTD :/ before your ship went boom. we all saw you crash but due to our lack of hard hitting ships we realised that we would not kill your poc before it dissapeared and i belive the megathron was the target at the time. Great well done you won that battle, at no point in eddz's post did he say you did not
KIAEddZ	Posted - 2005.03.28 23:19:00 - [19] Smacktastic.:/ :/ http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=176347 www.kia-corp.co.uk/killboard CEO of KIA Corp - Been doing it for the Laydeez since 1993, now we i
Mac Knife	Posted - 2005.03.28 23:44:00 - [20] ffs he is trying to have a simple discussion about how bad lag is and half of u are so damn immature u can't even do that
Random	Posted - 2005.03.29 00:12:00 - [21] Well we had sum lagg in the fight but no1 was complaining on the TS or gang, we jumped in and u warpt on us, but from what we saw, u all warping out and in again we just didn even imagen that u where lagging more than us. There where 2 times in the fight where only intys from kia where left on the battleground and u still warped in with the fleet, if u where lagging so much, why not just regrooping on a ss and adress the problem?
Schani Kratnorr	Posted - 2005.03.29 00:28:00 - [22] Let us see... re-describing the problem and stating obvious conclusions instead of commenting constructively and put pressure on CCP to prioritize this issue... Everyone hates lag and the effects it creates right? Only those with an insight into the ACTUAL design of EVE can comment precisely on the CAUSE of these effects. Only those with insight AND skill can begin to hope to fix these problems. What we can do is stick together, beyond the roles we have chosen in the game, and act together as players (who pay the bills). Once CCP realize this is a problem, they need to tell us what they think WE can do to help fix it. Perhaps gather logfiles during these events. Perhaps try to re-create them while CCP staff monitor and log things. CCP alone cannot provide a the couple of hundred players required to re-create this in a controlled environment, so why dont THEY come up woth a series of tests, designed to help THEM understand the problem and fix it? I am sure that the major alliances can agree to come up with 50 or so people each that can help out on any given day? -- "I am an expert in not caring. The trick is to stop giving a rat's ass about anyone else and start thinking about what YOU want, what YOU diserve, what the world ows YOU!" - Bender
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.29 00:34:00 - [23] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 28/03/2005 22:31:37 Why would you get ships back for lag kills? Its something that happens to all of us. Not trying to be funny but its the game mate. If you warp to a gate where a lot of people are camping you get locked and popped and killed before your client loads a lot of the time. Thats the current state of gankaggedon insta-lock warfare for you. I bet every poor carebear hauler gets popped like that doesn't petition. Why should it be different for pvp corps? Uh, if you warp to a gate and your client doesn't load before you pop, you deserve to be get your stuff back. I don't see how a logical argument can prove otherwise. AFAIK, there is no warning popup that says "warning, you are warping to a gate where your client won't load; you will die and have no chance of defending yourself, continue warp?". ________________________________________________________
Khouri	Posted - 2005.03.29 01:17:00 - [24] Edited by: Khouri on 29/03/2005 01:20:50 Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 28/03/2005 22:31:37 Why would you get ships back for lag kills? Its something that happens to all of us. Not trying to be funny but its the game mate. If you warp to a gate where a lot of people are camping you get locked and popped and killed before your client loads a lot of the time. Thats the current state of gankaggedon insta-lock warfare for you. I bet every poor carebear hauler gets popped like that doesn't petition. Why should it be different for pvp corps? Uh, if you warp to a gate and your client doesn't load before you pop, you deserve to be get your stuff back. I don't see how a logical argument can prove otherwise. AFAIK, there is no warning popup that says "warning, you are warping to a gate where your client won't load; you will die and have no chance of defending yourself, continue warp?". Problem there is, those with lower end machines "lag" more than those with higher end, sometimes its not always server side, sometimes its due to your low end computer that you fail to loadup faster than you get pwned in a largish fleet battle. Theres no way for a GM to be able to tell if your client failed to loadup or not, so how can a GM reimburse you for you not loading up in time before you pop? Only way a GM can is if it was indeed 100% server side, i.e. server node crash or something similar. So erm, what was that about no logical argument provin otherwise?
Hakera	Posted - 2005.03.29 01:32:00 - [25] given the resources eve takes up and your average hardware, I would say your own computer comes last in the line of lag causing priority. Lets face it, it could be your own connection to the internet and route to eve server, ok but that would be a localised problem, its more likely given the health status of TQ (very sick) and the widespread complaints of lag that its the server or in otherwords its CCP's problem. Dumbledore - Eve-I.com
Yuki Li	Posted - 2005.03.29 01:43:00 - [26] I've been involved in plenty of engagements in systems such as Yulai and especially Rens (which is a nightmare), and never had any major lag issues. Infact i always had more problems with 0.0 gankfleet lag, though fine since i upgraded my PC ;) [ 2004.07.31 17:31:00 ] (combat) Gallente Police Major strikes you perfectly, wrecking for 427.9 damage.
Dianabolic	Posted - 2005.03.29 01:53:00 - [27] Originally by: Hakera given the resources eve takes up and your average hardware, I would say your own computer comes last in the line of lag causing priority. Lets face it, it could be your own connection to the internet and route to eve server, ok but that would be a localised problem, its more likely given the health status of TQ (very sick) and the widespread complaints of lag that its the server or in otherwords its CCP's problem. Graphics lag is, has been and will continue to be a MAJOR source of client side lag. When you can warp to a gate in a system and the gate loads immediately, with nothing around other than standard structures, and then you warp to another gate in the same system that has lots of ships in it and ur fps goes from 20 or 30 to 2 or 3 then you KNOW that it's display lag. Once people then start shooting at each other then server lag increases, but this is dwarfed by DISPLAY lag. Now, CCP can say that it's not "display" related, but pretty much everyone I know and play the game with agree that those hi-def graphics models do NOT need to be rendered so far away. Nor do we need missiles and drones to be rendered at all, the icons are fine. Wait, was this another request for a combat view that completely minimises client side graphical representation? Oh yes.
Karoth Tyu	Posted - 2005.03.29 02:01:00 - [28] Use scouts. If the system lag is bad, don't engage there. Problem solved.
Taffun	Posted - 2005.03.29 02:09:00 - [29] Edited by: Taffun on 29/03/2005 02:13:39 I would dare say much of the lag has to do with some poor decisions made during the implementation of the server and network client code used for the game client. I'm however interested in wether or not people do actually get ships back due to lag because I had an incredibly severe case one time where I warped into a battle already under way and was inundated with connection exception popups. Needless to say, I had to end task on the client only to come back in a pod. Very frustrating indeed. EDIT: As stated above, it's also obvious that some poor decisions were made with regards to model rendering as well. Maybe allow us to choose which updates to receive? (i.e.: I don't necessarilly want to know who's shooting a ship I'm not currently targetting)
Shamad Conde	Posted - 2005.03.29 03:24:00 - [30] Edited by: Shamad Conde on 29/03/2005 03:43:14 Let's petition ships we lost and claim the reason we lost them was lag.

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