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Battle-Recorder · Eve's Very Own Built-In Record Tool

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ninjaholic Aliastra Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2011.12.14 23:27:00 - [61] - Quote @ Orisa Medeem - Thanks I've been dreaming about this for ages, so thought it out quite a bit, but I can't take all the credit, there've been many contributions and suggestions since Oct '07 that allowed it to evolve along the way. Yea there's got to be some kind of authentication otherwise there'd be fake demo files all over the place knowing the Eve community and unscrupulous individuals in general, and yea MD key would work. Maybe server receives request to record the fight, a key is paired so the data is encrypted? Let me know if we're on the same page here :D With regards metagaming I'm sure a scary amount of information could be retrieved from the files, ship fits, key targets in a fleet fight, maybe even identify spies, tactics, maneuvers, exact ship types, but to be honest, this info is available to anyone with enough patience & dedication anyway. But maybe I'm missing something? Support Eve's own built-in Battle-Recorder!
Orisa Medeem Hedion University Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2011.12.15 02:04:00 - [62] - Quote Actually, I just wanted to raise a discussion on that aspect of the feature rather than voice my own opinion, but since you asked it's more on the line: - The possibility to change how an event occurred ingame while promoting it outside the game opens some interesting possibilities, as long as it is not trivial to do so and there is some method to acquire verified data from the server. I will try to clarify with a few examples. Locally stored fittings for instance is a very bad example. It is too easy to create a capsule fitting with a DD weapon of each race, plus four developer guns. I think a better example is how a few killboards used to operate. You could provide your API to the site, then any KM you got or you suffered would be automatically added to it, and displayed as API verified. Or you could manually upload your kills, but there would always be some doubt about it, since that data could have been compromised. Let me try to give an example of how the battle recorder could work that would minimize the metagaming bit: 1) Your corp/alliance starts to form up for a gang. 2) Right before you depart, the FC asks everyone to start recording. 3) You get around and get some fights. 4) When the gang is about to disband, the FC asks everyone to send their recorded files to Joe, the guy in the gang who loves to make vids and such. 5) Joe opens the battle player and imput all files he has. 6) The battle player extracts as much information as possible from each file and put it all together. 7) Joe does all the editing work (start and end points, camera instructions, etc) and then creates the final file. 8) Joe then submits the file to a validation queue in the eve server within, say, 48h from the fight. 9) The server verifies that no extra data were added comparing to its internal logs. 10) The server calculates a hash from the file and notifies Joe. 11) Joe makes a vid using the battle player (so non-players can see it too) and also makes the final file available in a website. 12) His Eve peers download the file from Joe's website and open it in their battle player. 13) The battle player calculates the hash from the file and sends it to an API service. 14) The API service checks that the hash is in the list of files already verified and notifies the battle recorder. 15) The battle recorder displays that the file was verified. There are some points to be worked out: - Perhaps it adds too much extra effort for everyone to record then share files. - You could only get the viewpoint of the people that sent you their recorded data. - There is one loophole in step 9, since you could go for a trial and error process with the eve server to get unknown information. It also keeps some room for people that try to make some propaganda by manipulating the data, but other players will always be suspicious if you just prevent them to verify that your vids were made from authentic data. :sand: -áover -á:awesome:
Tovil Hadras Ordo Polaris Permanent Transience 0	Posted - 2011.12.17 01:06:00 - [63] - Quote +1 This idea is epic and I fully support it! Keep this thread alive guys.
Max Kolonko High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance 24	Posted - 2011.12.17 07:43:00 - [64] - Quote ninjaholic wrote: @ Orisa Medeem - Thanks I've been dreaming about this for ages, so thought it out quite a bit, but I can't take all the credit, there've been many contributions and suggestions since Oct '07 that allowed it to evolve along the way. Yea there's got to be some kind of authentication otherwise there'd be fake demo files all over the place knowing the Eve community and unscrupulous individuals in general, and yea MD key would work. Maybe server receives request to record the fight, a key is paired so the data is encrypted? Let me know if we're on the same page here :D With regards metagaming I'm sure a scary amount of information could be retrieved from the files, ship fits, key targets in a fleet fight, maybe even identify spies, tactics, maneuvers, exact ship types, but to be honest, this info is available to anyone with enough patience & dedication anyway. But maybe I'm missing something? Right now client performing recording dont know many things about battle, and use assumptions: - it dont know who is targeting who apart from who You are targeting and who targets You - it dont know what damage is dealt to whom apart from you dealing and receiving damage - IT KNOWS who shoots/web/neut/etc who and run animation for that between those two ships - IT DONT KNOWS what rate of fire this effect has, so it uses constant rate of fire for given weapon for all ships - all its known about fittings is what is visible at ships model (turret type and if some utilities hi's are present) - And finally it have no idea about skills of participants So there is no problem with fitting being available to all. Client know pretty much nothing about combat, except for movement, firing, dying and warping in and out So there is no problem with specific reverse engineering of stuff from battle recording apart from basic tactics (see who is using what, if they actually use it) and maneuvers AND +1 by the way
Max Kolonko High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance 24	Posted - 2011.12.17 07:43:00 - [65] - Quote edit: double post
Oddsodz The Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare Stealth Wear Inc. 3	Posted - 2011.12.17 13:22:00 - [66] - Quote All I can tell you is. If you do get this in. I and along with all my "Sir. Community" friends will be in here like a shot. We at "Sir." have a long history of making video game movies. And this is the sort of tool we like to use. We even made our own for BF2. http://www.sircommunity.com/software-battledirector.html Anyway. CCP, Get it done. Why? because with every video that the capusers make is free advertising for your (and our) game.
ninjaholic Aliastra Gallente Federation 32	Posted - 2011.12.21 23:38:00 - [67] - Quote @Orisa Medeem, re: #62: I see what you mean that the files and their content could be used to metagame. This could be solved if the battle is recorded by the server and then supplied to the client, kind of like how Team Fortress 2 does it nowdays, but I'd be concerned about the server load. Or maybe when the file starts recording on the client side, a key is generated by the server and used to auth the file to guarantee authenticity later on? I don't know for sure, I'm getting in to areas where I'm certainly not an expert but I can see that you're concerned about how this information could be used to gain the upper hand via metagaming, which is already a vital part of Eve Online pilots life. With the proper encryption and careful application by CCP I'm sure it could be made more difficult to find the files useful than otherwise? @Tovil Hadras: Haha thanks! Glad to have another supporter! @Max Kolonko: I talked about this before. It's called interpolation, where the server is instructed to guess the numbers in between a set of numbers or within a certain range. It would mean that the file only needs to contain major changes to the directions of ships, or targets etc, and doesn't have to contain all of the actual fight data. It would mean there would be slight inaccuracies in the data, however things like changes of directions of ships, changed targets etc could be marked, and everything else could easily be accurately guessed by the client on replay. This would significantly reduce the file size but would increase the load on the client. @Oddsodz: Awesome to see the Sir. Community is interested. I've laughed at many of the viral BF2 vids that your tool made it easy for directors to share to YouTube. I can only fantasize about having the technical know-how to make a similar tool for Eve Online. Support Eve's own built-in Battle-Recorder!
Hudson Mohawk Kanienkehaka Tribe 2	Posted - 2011.12.30 12:18:00 - [68] - Quote A really awesome proposal TOP !!! +1
ninjaholic Aliastra Gallente Federation 50	Posted - 2012.01.02 18:11:00 - [69] - Quote Thanks @Hudson! Glad you feel it'd be a good addition to the game! Support Eve's own built-in Battle-Recorder!
Endeavour Starfleet Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 513	Posted - 2012.01.02 21:00:00 - [70] - Quote CCP Atlas wrote: This is something that has been discussed internally numerous times and it is pretty awesome. I do believe it's even on some backlog or other, but I don't know when or if it will be attacked. I do hope this idea will be implemented in the future. The benefits would just add to EVE greatly.

Something Random The Barrow Boys 112	Posted - 2012.01.02 21:38:00 - [71] - Quote Endeavour Starfleet wrote: CCP Atlas wrote: This is something that has been discussed internally numerous times and it is pretty awesome. I do believe it's even on some backlog or other, but I don't know when or if it will be attacked. I do hope this idea will be implemented in the future. The benefits would just add to EVE greatly. Id like to add a +support Id also like to address CCP Atlas directly and ask if hes willing to step in and promote the idea further 'due to forum and CSM' demand. I can only see the addition being a plus... the sooner the better. What id like is a data renderable version from any viewpoint, recordable to AVI - users can deal with it from there "caught on fire a little bit, just a little." "Delinquents, check, weirdos, check, hippies, check, pillheads, check, freaks, check, potheads, check .....gangsn++ all here!"
Slumber Hawk Shadow on the moon 5	Posted - 2012.01.02 22:18:00 - [72] - Quote +1
uglybass Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 7	Posted - 2012.01.03 02:50:00 - [73] - Quote Video re-creating tools dont need to know anything about fits. It just needs to record every enitys place and action frequently enough to recreate its movement/doings so it can be drawn. let this entity be ship or missile etc... with action i mean stuff like shoot, warp, explosion, etc...
el alasar The Scope Gallente Federation 133	Posted - 2012.01.03 19:53:00 - [74] - Quote +1 check the moderated 10000 papercuts evelopedia page! http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Little_things_and_ideas_-_low_hanging_fruit_-_10000_papercuts comment, bump(!) and like what you like
Jenshae Chiroptera 398	Posted - 2012.01.03 20:29:00 - [75] - Quote ... what does it do to fix the lack of ability that the people making the videos have? Ideas and stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down.
ninjaholic Aliastra Gallente Federation 52	Posted - 2012.01.04 14:12:00 - [76] - Quote Endeavour Starfleet wrote: I do hope this idea will be implemented in the future. The benefits would just add to EVE greatly. I would also need to be defibrilated back to life. Something Random wrote: Id like to add a +support Id also like to address CCP Atlas directly and ask if hes willing to step in and promote the idea further 'due to forum and CSM' demand. I can only see the addition being a plus... the sooner the better. What id like is a data renderable version from any viewpoint, recordable to AVI - users can deal with it from there That there is the plan uglybass wrote: Video re-creating tools dont need to know anything about fits. It just needs to record every enitys place and action frequently enough to recreate its movement/doings so it can be drawn. let this entity be ship or missile etc... with action i mean stuff like shoot, warp, explosion, etc... In a way you're right, they don't. But that might mean creating another library of reference numbers for the different items in the game so that all that data doens't get recorded in the file itself. It lends to a much larger problem than that that already exists Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: ... what does it do to fix the lack of ability that the people making the videos have? Yea, we can only pray for Darwinism tbh Support Eve's own built-in Battle-Recorder!
Jenshae Chiroptera 399	Posted - 2012.01.04 18:32:00 - [77] - Quote ninjaholic wrote: ... Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: ... what does it do to fix the lack of ability that the people making the videos have? Yea, we can only pray for Darwinism tbh If so many of us believe in evolution then why are we making such an effort to keep the dim and feeble alive and breeding? Ideas and stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down.
Petrus Blackshell Rifterlings 182	Posted - 2012.01.04 19:59:00 - [78] - Quote + >9000
ninjaholic Aliastra Gallente Federation 53	Posted - 2012.01.06 14:28:00 - [79] - Quote Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: If so many of us believe in evolution then why are we making such an effort to keep the dim and feeble alive and breeding? Since it's not working, I will double my efforts! Also Jen, that's one hell of a list of ideas submissions. Kudos! Petrus Blackshell wrote: + >9000 9000 * GêP Support Eve's own built-in Battle-Recorder!
ninjaholic Aliastra Gallente Federation 53	Posted - 2012.01.06 14:36:00 - [80] - Quote Quick post, I think it should be renamed to Black Box, so I can make inappropriate docking-undocking & penetration inuendos while making movies. Support Eve's own built-in Battle-Recorder!

Tallian Saotome Casa Del Wombat 323	Posted - 2012.01.06 15:31:00 - [81] - Quote Might I suggest that the people wondering how much data your client gets use your logserver, iirc thats gonna tell your pretty much everything your client knows. Additionally, to those who worry about the recordings getting edited... who cares? Do you trust the youtube vids to be 100% accurate and unedited? Get the recorder, then, if it somehow becomes a problem, worry about getting some form of verification system put in place. If all the recorder knows is what my client knows, it still knows where everything on grid is, how fast its moving, when it shoots, and when it explodes. You need nothing else to make videos, when you combine that info with the look at feature. It doesn't need to be 100% accurate, as long as every knows its not 100%. It doesn't have to be untamperable(I just made a word!), as long as it doesn't know more than my client knows. With that set of expectations in mind, you get an awesome tool for making videos, thats useless for gathering real intel beyond figuring out what went wrong, better than fraps with minimal system load. Talk of pulling data from the servers and some kind of verification queue will keep this from happening almost as quick as the entire community saying its useless, as it would expose the servers to hack attempts in the first case, and cause a major workload on them in the second. Get something that records clientside only, be aware that the data could be edited(just like a video can be), and be happy if we get that much. Improvements can be worked out later(iteration!) o/`-á Lord, I want to be a gynecologist.. KY, rubber gloves, and a flashlight.-á o/`
ninjaholic Aliastra Gallente Federation 55	Posted - 2012.01.06 16:14:00 - [82] - Quote Tallian Saotome wrote: Might I suggest that the people wondering how much data your client gets use your logserver, iirc thats gonna tell your pretty much everything your client knows. Some people like wearing their tinfoil hats :) I personally encrypt everything else but when it comes to Eve Online I don't care at all about what my own client saves. But all that stuff can be removed by the client anyway to reduce file size and reduce meta gaming. I don't see CCP caring about meta gaming either since it's such a big part of the main game so they may take the same standpoint. Hard to say without feedback. I'm sure it would be reduced with guesstimates and encrypted to just make it hard for your average Joe to mess with. Tallian Saotome wrote: Additionally, to those who worry about the recordings getting edited... who cares? Do you trust the youtube vids to be 100% accurate and unedited? In a way I'd agree with you there, in that if you're stupid enough to fall for a fake video, then you deserve to be fooled. Peeps might just be afraid that it'll flood Eve with crap videos that YouTube is already flooded with, then add some faked videos to top it all off. If that happened the tool would be made redundant. :/ Tallian Saotome wrote: Get the recorder, then, if it somehow becomes a problem, worry about getting some form of verification system put in place. Definitely agreed here. Like get the server to give it a hash check when recording is completed. This verification key can be used then to make sure that the file is legit, and it's subsequent vids are also legit. Guaranteeing authenticity :) Tallian Saotome wrote: If all the recorder knows is what my client knows, it still knows where everything on grid is, how fast its moving, when it shoots, and when it explodes. You need nothing else to make videos, when you combine that info with the look at feature. It doesn't need to be 100% accurate, as long as every knows its not 100%. It doesn't have to be untamperable(I just made a word!), as long as it doesn't know more than my client knows. Absolutely agreed. Most of the info can be guessed by the client, like how modern day data compression is done. MP3's remove audio we can't hear anyway, MP4's remove video content that is repeated multiple times from frames to reduce the final size making things FAR more efficient. There's no reason the final product from the recorder can't do the same. CCP's monkeys are optimization obsessed, so this might even be a priority one day :D Support Eve's own built-in Battle-Recorder!
ninjaholic Aliastra Gallente Federation 55	Posted - 2012.01.06 16:20:00 - [83] - Quote Tallian Saotome wrote: With that set of expectations in mind, you get an awesome tool for making videos, thats useless for gathering real intel beyond figuring out what went wrong, better than fraps with minimal system load. Exactly the point. it's primary function is entertainment, the promote creativity, bring more subscribers, to do epic movies with already epic fights. As an intel gathering tool, it's meant as more of a self-imporovement utility, make better fleet fights, more of that 'grey-area' intel where people don't know exactly where things went wrong so we can all get better at it. Tallian Saotome wrote: Talk of pulling data from the servers and some kind of verification queue will keep this from happening almost as quick as the entire community saying its useless, as it would expose the servers to hack attempts in the first case, and cause a major workload on them in the second. Yup, that's probably the part that have CCP scratching their heads about. Tallian Saotome wrote: Get something that records clientside only, be aware that the data could be edited(just like a video can be), and be happy if we get that much. Improvements can be worked out later(iteration!) Since CCP release beta updates for the client, lets have a beta Battle-Recorder that gets patched every other month too! CCP WE CLEARLY WANT. Support Eve's own built-in Battle-Recorder!
Tallian Saotome Casa Del Wombat 323	Posted - 2012.01.06 16:27:00 - [84] - Quote ninjaholic wrote: Tallian Saotome wrote: Talk of pulling data from the servers and some kind of verification queue will keep this from happening almost as quick as the entire community saying its useless, as it would expose the servers to hack attempts in the first case, and cause a major workload on them in the second. Yup, that's probably the part that have CCP scratching their heads about. Quit asking for it An unverifiable battle recorder is much easier, and 100% less strain on the servers than any solution that uses verification. Just don't worry about it, but cause if it keeps getting pushed, they will keep worrying about solving it, and the tool will never release. They already HAVE the tool, in an unverifiable form, as CCP Atlas posted. At this point, the main issue would most likely be one of a UI that doesn't require scripting the camera in a text file in advance, or something similar. Add verification, and your talking about recoding the API system to allow the pulling and calculations of that data at the very least, which is a much larger project. Treat it as the video version of the chat/combat logs we already have. o/`-á Lord, I want to be a gynecologist.. KY, rubber gloves, and a flashlight.-á o/`
ninjaholic Aliastra Gallente Federation 57	Posted - 2012.01.06 16:39:00 - [85] - Quote In any form, want it. Even if it was command line based lol. Support Eve's own built-in Battle-Recorder!
Fidelium Mortis Quantum Cats Syndicate 18	Posted - 2012.01.06 19:38:00 - [86] - Quote I'm not sure how many people have played Quake and Half-life (or Counterstrike) but there's a pretty low impact way to record demo files in game that is entirely client side. Essentially you start recording gameplay to a local file (that is fairly slim), and can replay it back in the client using the engine etc. Anything that is supported serverside has the potential to bog down the game for everyone and also can cause a headache from a technical support standpoint. Keep it slim, simple, and client side. Also if someone hacks a client side file, who really cares as long as it doesn't have an in-game impact. ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon
ninjaholic Aliastra Gallente Federation 58	Posted - 2012.01.08 01:00:00 - [87] - Quote @Fidelium Mortis I mention it in the original post :p It's exactly why I just can't believe it's not possible to have this in Eve Online, since the Source engine has such a (old but) efficient way to make demo files. Support Eve's own built-in Battle-Recorder!
Jenshae Chiroptera 405	Posted - 2012.01.08 16:29:00 - [88] - Quote ninjaholic wrote: Since it's not working, I will double my efforts! Also Jen, that's one hell of a list of ideas submissions. Kudos! Thanks and bump I guess. Ideas and stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down.
Dantes Wolf i-Pos Inception Alliance 7	Posted - 2012.01.08 17:08:00 - [89] - Quote I made this =D ( look at the "1000 papercuts" thread, if in doubt :) ( just hadda say it - and TY for taking the idea seriously =D <3 ) D. Det er s+Ñdan lidt.. Meh.. -áMen der er meget af det.. :)
Amaroq Dricaldari Vengeance Industrial Militia 3	Posted - 2012.01.09 00:48:00 - [90] - Quote They should have OpenCL and Multi-Threading Support for when you actually compile the videos, that way you can reduce the amount of time it takes.



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