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Khaz Taron
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
5
   |
Posted - 2012.10.25 13:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
I don't think it should be allowed. I fly Minmatar ships and with that projectile.
I think that once you choose your blood line you should be limited in game to what you fly and shoot.
If your allowed to cross train I reckon it should take me a bloodly lot longer to do for example
I should train cannons at a certain rate because that's Minmatar weapon of choice on most of its ships.
If I wanted to train to fly an Amarr ship I reckon is should take me longer than an Amarr pilot. I mean come on stands to reason yea?
I really reckon CCP missed a trick here but is it too late to implement and what you all reckon? do you see my point of view?
I mean right now if you wanna fly another races ship you just train and fly the next flavour of the month.
Do something about it CCP will ya?
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Marc Callan
Interstellar Steel
Templis Dragonaors
33
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 15:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
New players don't know in advance what the various races are good at. Picking your race is, for newbies, literally the first decision they have to make. It's a low-information decision, and if the race choice hamstrung your ability to train your preferred playstyle, then CCP would see a lot of characters (and potentially accounts) being abandoned.
That's actually one of the charms of EVE - anyone can, given enough time, do anything they like*. No barred skills, no locking into roles.
*Well, anything except hitting extortionist miner-bumpers with a Concordokken, but that's just silly. |
Khaz Taron
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 15:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tough Id say. Ive played countless games from the 80's until now many of which are MMORPG where a the start you pick a race and set your attributes only to find months or even years later you would have done things differently. Like life in fact??
So poppy **** my dear boy. |
Marc Callan
Interstellar Steel
Templis Dragonaors
33
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 15:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
You do get a bit of a leg up in some racial skills at the outset, but CCP just decided they didn't want to go the barred-skill route. And there's also a bit of that in skill prerequisites; for me, for example, going Amarr would mean heavy training in a bunch of fundamental skills just to qualify for the advanced skills I'd need to fly an Amarr battleship properly.
If you want to flag this issue for CCP's attention, though, there's the Features and Ideas Discussion board down low on the main forums page. Just ... don't be surprised if the discussion gets a little less than civilized. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10109
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 17:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Horrible horrible awful ridiculously brain-damaging idea.
EVE does not suffer from the fucktardness of those half-century old class/level-based design that, for some unfathomable reason, persist to this day. This is a very very good thing and there is no reason why it would ever need to be afflicted by such a loathsome design flaw.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
726
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 17:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
If that's what you want, you should try a different game. One of the appeals to EVE is the ability to cross-train at will. If that doesn't appeal to you, well, maybe it's wrong game for you? |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
955
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 21:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
We've had the age of Caldari Achura master race once, we don't need it again. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
27
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 02:12:00 -
[8] - Quote
you only got 5 months in the game OP (assuming not an alt). We'll see how your outlook changes in 2 years when you really want to change your ships out and will probably appreciate not having to retrain fun skills like AwU 5(or any other really fitting or support skills to 5) to refit all new guns.
Also any reason why a RP purist such as yourself is not in Minmatar FW? |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics
K162
720
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 03:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
I agree with you in principle but realistically it's never going to happen.
Fact of the matter is you need more than one race's skills to be good at a variety of roles.
Personally, I have all races up to caps trained on my main so I can do everything decently but my T2 ship skills are at 4s (mostly) due to the training time needed for such cross training and on my alts i stick to 1 race and really perfect the skills and have all the T2 ship skills to 5.
This way I can do whatever is needed on my main but when I need something done really well, I bring a specialized alt.
(yes i know not everyone plays with many accounts but it's how i roll.)
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Khaz Taron
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 11:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Just for the record I played since 2003 and this dude is a new character on a new account.
I dont think its a bad idea. I reckon CCP have messed from the start but still could change it. Yea it's not everyone's cuppa tea but i reckon it would be more realistic.
If I grew up as a young blow flying my racial ships how or why would i expect to be able to cross train and fly them just as quickly as my own ships?
why would I expect to be able to operate lasers as well as projectiles?
Let's take the easy mode out of this game and make it more specialized.....
I ain't saying Im not able to cross train im just saying it should take me longer cause I didn't grow up on Amarr |
Marc Callan
Interstellar Steel
Templis Dragonaors
33
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 12:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
You get that, though - you get free levels in your own racial ships and weapons from the get-go. And anyway, in-game, you're a cybernetic post-human demigod, whatever your race.
You can always take your thought to Features and Ideas Discussion and see what sort of response it gets. I've done that, with ideas I thought were nifty, and in between the flames, I learned why my ideas were broken. |
Khaz Taron
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 13:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
Marc Callan wrote:You get that, though - you get free levels in your own racial ships and weapons from the get-go. And anyway, in-game, you're a cybernetic post-human demigod, whatever your race.
You can always take your thought to Features and Ideas Discussion and see what sort of response it gets. I've done that, with ideas I thought were nifty, and in between the flames, I learned why my ideas were broken.
Right yea but it aint enough.
How many times youve seen caldari pilots flying canes and auto cannons?? or Amarr flying drakes and missiles with shileds? I just think there should be ore spec and if you want to cross train you can at more expense to you and training time.
At the moment its more of a case of choice not to cross train or stay true to your race.... |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10139
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 14:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Khaz Taron wrote: At the moment its more of a case of choice not to cross train or stay true to your race.... GǪand having that choice is good. Removing it for no reason is just good old bad design.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
|
Khaz Taron
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 14:19:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Khaz Taron wrote: At the moment its more of a case of choice not to cross train or stay true to your race.... GǪand having that choice is good. Removing it for no reason is just good old bad design.
It's ok your most likely early 20's and do not have much experience in the gaming world. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10141
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 14:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Khaz Taron wrote:It's ok your most likely early 20's and do not have much experience in the gaming world. Incorrect on both accounts, which is why I know how outdated the design is and why it needed to put to pasture a long time agoGǪ
It's a game of choices. You are arguing for their removal. This is what's known as a bad combination.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
|
Khaz Taron
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 14:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Khaz Taron wrote:It's ok your most likely early 20's and do not have much experience in the gaming world. Incorrect on both accounts, which is why I know how outdated the design is and why it needed to put to pasture a long time agoGǪ It's a game of choices. You are arguing for their removal. This is what's known as a bad combination.
Fair enough...
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Robert De'Arneth
170
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 14:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
I hate the idea,would make me quit in a Mississippi second if they did this.
You have not lived until you have been Wated by Jim!!-á-á |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
198
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 14:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Quote "Let's take the easy mode out of this game and make it more specialized....." End Quote
Even if you train at the same rate, Another race of ships and weapons (Frig V, Cruiser V, BS V. Small, medium and large gun specs IV) takes several months.
Eve doesn't really have an easy mode.
Also,
This is a pay as you go game. If you pay the full price, you should get the full value. Anything less would just be bad customer relations.
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Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
64
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 14:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
Khaz Taron wrote:Yea it's not everyone's cuppa tea but i reckon it would be more realistic.
If I grew up as a young blow flying my racial ships how or why would i expect to be able to cross train and fly them just as quickly as my own ships?
Realistic you say... OK I'll bite, two comparisons for you here:
Let's say you know how to fly a plane IRL. What would it take for you to fly another type of plane? Would you have to do all your pilot training from the very beginning? No. all you need is to do a short orientation course, some sessions in a class room, some in the simulator and maybe a flight or two in the co-pilots seat, then it's time for the real thing.
Using guns. If you know how to use one type of rifle you already know how to use most (if not all) of the others, you know which way to hold it, how to aim it and how to sque-e-e-e-eze the trigger instead of pulling it. Learning all the technical little details e.g. how to operate the safety, how to load the gun and how to adjust the sights are a trivial matter which don't take long.
So if you want to be realistic then training the other races in eve should take a shorter amount of time then they currently do.
Khaz Taron wrote:why would I expect to be able to operate lasers as well as projectiles?
The skills in Eve are mostly enablers and stat enhancers. They don't determine how skillfully you use your ships or tell you how to fit them. That's where the skills between those two flabby things you call ears come into play.
Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |
Khaz Taron
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 15:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
It's all about our idea's. You got yours I got mine.
Ill stick to my plan of building myself as a true minmatar character. You guys cross train. Yea I might gimp myself buy there's something to be said for staying true and play the "sandbox" how I want lol. Each to there own. |
Marc Callan
Interstellar Steel
Templis Dragonaors
35
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 15:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
Khaz Taron wrote:It's all about our idea's. You got yours I got mine.
Ill stick to my plan of building myself as a true minmatar character. You guys cross train. Yea I might gimp myself buy there's something to be said for staying true and play the "sandbox" how I want lol. Each to there own.
Exactly. Play the game the way you want. But -- don't demand that the fundamentals of the game be changed so that everyone must play the way you want. |
Khaz Taron
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 15:24:00 -
[22] - Quote
Sable Moran wrote:Khaz Taron wrote:Yea it's not everyone's cuppa tea but i reckon it would be more realistic.
If I grew up as a young blow flying my racial ships how or why would i expect to be able to cross train and fly them just as quickly as my own ships? Realistic you say... OK I'll bite, two comparisons for you here: Let's say you know how to fly a plane IRL. What would it take for you to fly another type of plane? Would you have to do all your pilot training from the very beginning? No. all you need is to do a short orientation course, some sessions in a class room, some in the simulator and maybe a flight or two in the co-pilots seat, then it's time for the real thing. Using guns. If you know how to use one type of rifle you already know how to use most (if not all) of the others, you know which way to hold it, how to aim it and how to sque-e-e-e-eze the trigger instead of pulling it. Learning all the technical little details e.g. how to operate the safety, how to load the gun and how to adjust the sights are a trivial matter which don't take long. So if you want to be realistic then training the other races in eve should take a shorter amount of time then they currently do. Khaz Taron wrote:why would I expect to be able to operate lasers as well as projectiles? The skills in Eve are mostly enablers and stat enhancers. They don't determine how skillfully you use your ships or tell you how to fit them. That's where the skills between those two flabby things you call ears come into play.
You obviously have never flown a real plane. Maybe you have fired a gun but not many differrntl types of guns./ Yes you can after time and some learning fly it or shoot it but it takes a bit longer to be an expert in it. Like in real life.
for example You drive yes? Left hand drive most likely? Right hand side of the road. you learned that wy and again i am guessing. So you goto another country. Are you now telling me you can just take to it like a duck to water or does it take time to get in the flow??? thats a simple thing to put to you not like flying a plane or firing a gun.
Its the same with cars you might learn on a manual or auto. Quite different. Same with a simple low spec car vs a high spec car where you need more training.
I dont expect the game to change I am just saying how I would have done it to make it true in my mind.
Try and have an open mind yea? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10143
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 16:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
Khaz Taron wrote:You obviously have never flown a real plane. Neither have you, obviously. If you had, you'd know that what he said was spot on.
No, it wouldn't take longer to learn a new plane or a new rifle. It would take less time since you have the basics down from the last one you trained. This is the same as the base and support skills in EVE: once you get the basics down, it's just a matter of learning more of the same, and that does not take longer each time you do it.
Learning to drive on the other side of the road does not take longer than it took you to learn how to drive on whatever counts as the GÇ£normalGÇ¥ side where you live. If you want to make it more realistic, each time you train a skill in the same category, it should be easier than the last time.
Quote:Try and have an open mind yea? Ok, here's open mind for you: don't try to restrict other people's choices just because you don't want to make them yourself. Class-based designs are lazy (and bad) and have been outdated for several decades by now. They were a fancy new idea in the 1950s, but we have better ones today. So please, don't try to dumb the game down by restricting player choice.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
|
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
16
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 16:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
Khaz Taron wrote:for example You drive yes? Left hand drive most likely? Right hand side of the road. you learned that wy and again i am guessing. So you goto another country. Are you now telling me you can just take to it like a duck to water or does it take time to get in the flow??? thats a simple thing to put to you not like flying a plane or firing a gun.
Sure, there are new things to learn and get used to. But it's not nearly like starting from scratch. Safe following distance, how wide to turn, how to park, stopping distance... those are all skills you learn from experience that apply regardless of what side of the road you're driving on. They don't need to be relearned. An adult American in the UK (or vice versa) is probably going to drive a lot better than a kid who's sitting in the driver's seat for the first time. |
Sunshyn LaBlond
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 16:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
While I see where the OP is coming from, I don't think it should be put in the game.
I agree with Sable. In fact, the notion of the racial ship type is just fluff- functionally they are the same. Whether the analogy is planes, cars, guns, or whatever, it's valid. You could argue that the racial differences in ships comes down to different languages or metrics used. Like a US fighter pilot could fly a Chinese fighter after a brief introduction- but simply reading the dials and displays is difficult.
You could eliminate the racial connection to ships and replace it with the manufacturer name. Descriptions of ships often include a blurb about that manufacturer favoring 'pile on as many guns as possible' . So you could as easily have Lai Dai Frigate IV instead of Caldari Frigate IV for example. This would be functionally the same- implying a particular design such as shield tanker, missile thrower, etc.
I also think adding 'favoritism' among the skills would end up being just another issue that needs constant rebalancing and tweaking with every patch and expansion. We already have terms like Winmatar because this or that game change has favored some race's backstory for awhile.
As it is, giving a buff to a certain weapon type or hull class is seen as favoring a single race. It's a poor accusation since everyone can train anything equally. But the OP's idea would make this a legitimate complaint. It would become basically a one in four chance lottery for players. Whichever ship or weapon benefits most from any tweak to it, instantly buffs any player that happened to select that race in their first 5 minutes of playing Eve.
A gameplay choice prolly best left to RP. Like this toon, created specifically to do Amarr FW- laser only, armor only, etc. The 'buff' for going all racial is pretty much reduced training time- in that I need less skills trained to be combat effective. one weapon, one tank, one kind of 'issue' to overcome (cap for amarr for example) ...etc. This toon doesn't waste a month getting V's in missiles or drones on top of a gun type.
I think of this focus on skills in a similar way as a racial preference built into the skill system.
It's already well balanced. While a single focus gets you skilled faster, more V's instead of IV's....I'll be much less flexible and behind the curve when moving into cruisers and up which require drones.
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Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
65
|
Posted - 2012.10.26 17:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
Khaz Taron wrote:It's all about our idea's. You got yours I got mine.
Ill stick to my plan of building myself as a true minmatar character. You guys cross train. Yea I might gimp myself buy there's something to be said for staying true and play the "sandbox" how I want lol. Each to there own.
For what it's worth. Sable is crosstrained to just about anything non-capital. But I do have two other characters that are trained for one set of racial skills, one Minmatar, one Amarr. I do enjoy playing all three of them.
The way eve is set up now gives us the choice to do something like that, the changes you were suggesting would have severely cut in to that choice.
Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |
AlphaAngel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.10.27 12:49:00 -
[27] - Quote
Khaz Taron wrote:
If I wanted to train to fly an Amarr ship I reckon is should take me longer than an Amarr pilot. I mean come on stands to reason yea?
Stands to reason? No, not really. I'm English, so I should be able to learn to drive a English car faster than I can learn to drive a Japanese car?
Explain this 'reason' to which this argument stands up.
The plane analogy however would only explain the difference between 'types' of plane i.e. a light aircraft (a frigate say) or a jumbo jet (battleship) |
Arkadelphia
Day Trippers
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.27 13:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
Wait...
Your a minmatar pilot and against cross training? Minmatar is the race notorious for requiring cross training from missiles, gunnery, shield and armor. I just got done spewing on exactly this in another thread. Minmatar has awesome bonuses in pirate ships, silly to not use them or use your missile and shield skills by training tengu and drake.
Also, touching on pirate ships....messing with cross training would mess with pirate ships, which would mess with prices and bpc stuff, which then shakes exploration, which then awakens bears, and baby Jesus cries. You get it...
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Horak Thor
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
113
|
Posted - 2012.10.28 21:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
Khaz Taron wrote:
You obviously have never flown a real plane. Maybe you have fired a gun but not many differrntl types of guns./ Yes you can after time and some learning fly it or shoot it but it takes a bit longer to be an expert in it. Like in real life.
Thought id put my two pence in.
Im in the army and have learned to use alot of weapon systems.
Initially the sa80 where you learn the basic's of safe weapon handling blah blah blah death by power point before ever touching the weapon, then dry drill's for ages before ever going onto a range, once on a range you learn at each individual distance what forces apply to the round as it travels on it trajectory (wind, gravity etc).
When picking up a new weapon system you dont have to learn from scratch, you learn the new muzzle velocity, calibre etc (therefore getting a feel for the ballistic's). you will have some power point dry firing etc but its ten times faster than learning from scratch.
Its more in depth than this but its clearly easier to learn about a new variation of something you already know than to learn something new completely.
more simply if you ride a moped when your 16 you pick up road procedure/signs etc making it easier to drive a car than a person who has never even seen a road.
TRIAD is recruiting "TRIAD Agency" in game channel |
Riedle
Paradox Collective
Choke Point
190
|
Posted - 2012.10.29 16:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
Khaz Taron wrote:Just for the record I played since 2003 and this dude is a new character on a new account.
I dont think its a bad idea. I reckon CCP have messed from the start but still could change it. Yea it's not everyone's cuppa tea but i reckon it would be more realistic.
If I grew up as a young blow flying my racial ships how or why would i expect to be able to cross train and fly them just as quickly as my own ships?
why would I expect to be able to operate lasers as well as projectiles?
Let's take the easy mode out of this game and make it more specialized.....
I ain't saying Im not able to cross train im just saying it should take me longer cause I didn't grow up on Amarr
I reckon you best think again.
A truly frightful idea you done proposed. |
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