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Airios	Posted - 2005.04.13 10:47:00 - [31] When wageing war the goal is to caouse damage against your opponent, why use thise ships if other can do it more efficient. 8 peps in stelthbombers during fleet action or (god forbid) a gatecamp op. Or, 8 additional battleships/ceptors? ____________________________________________________
Selim	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:17:00 - [32] Edited by: Selim on 13/04/2005 11:18:34 Originally by: Hast all this "warp 5 bombers to a gate and cloak and stuff", you can do that alot better with 5 interceptors, and if you mix a couple of Assault frigs aswell then you have a serious force. Only thing they have going for them is that they can move faster then those ships while cloaked... exactly. These things need to have the sig radius penalty removed. As well as the sensor recalibration time. I also think they should use torpedos... right now even the caldari one is pathetically weak. And after the missile fix, these things will be useless even against frigates. While already being dumb vs battleships.
MutationZ	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:28:00 - [33] Originally by: Selim Edited by: Selim on 13/04/2005 11:18:34 Originally by: Hast all this "warp 5 bombers to a gate and cloak and stuff", you can do that alot better with 5 interceptors, and if you mix a couple of Assault frigs aswell then you have a serious force. Only thing they have going for them is that they can move faster then those ships while cloaked... exactly. These things need to have the sig radius penalty removed. As well as the sensor recalibration time. I also think they should use torpedos... right now even the caldari one is pathetically weak. And after the missile fix, these things will be useless even against frigates. While already being dumb vs battleships. Its a FRIG sized ship. Its not meant to take down a bs. Jeezus.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:29:00 - [34] Originally by: Knoppaz Now I see the same again here and I don't really understand it. Even with my basic knowledge I wouldn't take a single Bomber against a Battleship. I agree with some other comments that they are best used to get rid of enemy cargo runners and support ships. See a Battleship? Either cloak and stay calm or warp out imho.. The point is that bombers are toast against most PVP frigs, and especially Interceptors. Which can either outrun the missiles, or toast the bomber before it locks. And after the missile nerf cruise should be even worse against frigs. So other then whacking Indys, a few bombers should be able to take out a lone BS. But with the locking penalty of cloaks, and the scanner recalibration time, a BS will lock a bomber first. And one cruise missile from a BS will put a bomber in structure. In most PVP you are either facing T2 frigs or BS. And bombers are not a good idea for use against either. And for killing Indys a cloaked Inty or Assault frig is probably better. So bombers are pretty much just for the novelty factor of having frigs that fire cruise missles again (Which only used to be so effective because it was cheap). --------------------------------------------------
Selim	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:30:00 - [35] Originally by: MutationZ Originally by: Selim Edited by: Selim on 13/04/2005 11:18:34 Originally by: Hast all this "warp 5 bombers to a gate and cloak and stuff", you can do that alot better with 5 interceptors, and if you mix a couple of Assault frigs aswell then you have a serious force. Only thing they have going for them is that they can move faster then those ships while cloaked... exactly. These things need to have the sig radius penalty removed. As well as the sensor recalibration time. I also think they should use torpedos... right now even the caldari one is pathetically weak. And after the missile fix, these things will be useless even against frigates. While already being dumb vs battleships. Its a FRIG sized ship. Its not meant to take down a bs. Jeezus. Too bad it sucks versus everything else! Even an indy will warp out before you get a lock. And its a BOMBER. Its supposed to be uber against capital ships (Battleships).
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:31:00 - [36] Originally by: MutationZ Originally by: Selim Edited by: Selim on 13/04/2005 11:18:34 Originally by: Hast all this "warp 5 bombers to a gate and cloak and stuff", you can do that alot better with 5 interceptors, and if you mix a couple of Assault frigs aswell then you have a serious force. Only thing they have going for them is that they can move faster then those ships while cloaked... exactly. These things need to have the sig radius penalty removed. As well as the sensor recalibration time. I also think they should use torpedos... right now even the caldari one is pathetically weak. And after the missile fix, these things will be useless even against frigates. While already being dumb vs battleships. Its a FRIG sized ship. Its not meant to take down a bs. Jeezus. Oh yeah is it supposed to tank a T2 frig for the 30 seconds it will take to lock? Get a clue. --------------------------------------------------
MutationZ	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:37:00 - [37] All I'm saying is it will have a niche and its up to the players to find it. All the naysayers are already bemoaning all of its attributes without even having tried it out. I have a clue, some things it will be useful for, marginal for others and useless for some things. Bemoaning something that its obviously useless for is dumb.
Knoppaz	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:48:00 - [38] Ok, I understand the locking time thingy, but what is that scanner recalibration? I don't have the skill yet to find out myself Anyway, Cruise missles have a base damage of 300hp. Add the regular missile modifiers + the Bomber specialization modifiers to it and you you'll have a lot of punch per volley. No idea if there is a way around the locking time problem (sensor boosters maybe?), but it's not that Bombers are superslow. With Nanofibers and the small sig they have, they might be hard to target for everything above Frigs and maybe Cruisers (again, this is an asumption based on my basic knowledge). I could image that one volley of a high skilled Bomber can be very dangerous to a Cruiser and EW might help with escaping (I don't think tanking is a viable option for Bombers). ___________________ 2005.05.06 19:35:17combatYour 650mm Medium Prototype I Siege Cannon perfectly strikes Angel Liquidator, wrecking for 438.7 damage.
Vortex Freeman	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:48:00 - [39] Edited by: Vortex Freeman on 13/04/2005 11:48:12 Stealth Bombers suck and they are completely useless. Now go mine some veldspar, you know you want to. --- Vortex Freeman CEO - Roving Guns Inc. ~ Preparatus Supervivet ~
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.04.13 11:56:00 - [40] Originally by: MutationZ All I'm saying is it will have a niche and its up to the players to find it. All the naysayers are already bemoaning all of its attributes without even having tried it out. I have a clue, some things it will be useful for, marginal for others and useless for some things. Bemoaning something that its obviously useless for is dumb. Get a clue. I am a cloaking specialist, I use cloaking cruisers for PVP, and I use Impro cloaked Tier 1 frigs as cheap scouts (I also have covert ops). I am bemoaning bombers because I use Improved cloaks and know how ****ty they are. Even with very high skills the minimum lock time with an imrpoved cloak is 8-10 seconds (which is the scanner recalibration time after uncloaking), but because of the scan res nerf of cloaks and the bombers crappy base scan res, you will be lucky to lock a BS in 30 seconds. And bombers are not going to be tanking the heavy drones from a BS's, that will have the bomber half dead before it locks. No EW can save you then. Bombers have a role, but its a role that is done better by cloaked Intys/Assault frigs, and cheaper by T1 cruisers. I will be getting a bomber as soon as I can, but it has very little to recommend it above a cruiser with a cloak. --------------------------------------------------
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.04.13 12:06:00 - [41] Edited by: Gariuys on 13/04/2005 12:06:11 Well they're a good reason for me to finally get into cloaking, Nemesis looks nice. And 4 months from now, we'll all laugh at the people that said they where useless. And don't you all find the whole, but no no with this l33t setup on my t1 cruiser I can do what that does better, getting old? So you can do similair things ( not the same, it IS a frig and it does lock better etc. and it has that speed bonus ) in another ship. That's eve flexibility, not some lacking. There's nothing my deimos can do that my megathron couldn't do equally well. But that doesn't make the deimos useless, on the contrary, it's one of the msot populair ships around. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.04.13 12:09:00 - [42] ôOk, I understand the locking time thingy, but what is that scanner recalibration? I don't have the skill yet to find out myselfö When you decloak you have to wait for scanner recalibration before you can start to try to lock a target. Scanner recalibration takes 20 seconds but you can lower it a bit by skills. On top of waiting before you start to lock the cloak also has a û40% to scan resolution meaning you take almost twice as long as normal to lock your target. So you end up waiting a while before you can start to lock then waiting ages to get a lock, all the time hoping no one shoots at you. The other bit people forget is you cannot cloak right after uncloaking so no hit, cloak and run tactics. More Uncloak, wait, hit, wait, cloak run. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Sternburg Export	Posted - 2005.04.13 12:41:00 - [43] Edited by: Sternburg Export on 13/04/2005 12:42:39 Originally by: Pottsey The other bit people forget is you cannot cloak right after uncloaking so no hit, cloak and run tactics. More Uncloak, wait, hit, wait, cloak run. It¦s more like: Uncloak wait ... ... wait even longer ... ... Hit if still alive decloak realize you are logged Warp away / log off I love those people posting facts while i¦m not ingame.. i didn¦t think about the scan resolution thingy as i made this topic. >20 sec lockingtime is uhmmmm damn... How many sensor booster II¦s can i fit? Frig sized ships that can fire Cruise missiles are a powerfull weapon > FACT But with the disadvantages imo the Bombers are nearly useless. To give them full scan resolution and to remove sensor recalibration time wouldt make them to UBER. Instead of Cruise missile velocity bonus or [insert weapon bonus of Bombers here] the devs should add a bonus to scan resolution and Sensor recalibration time. Maybe 10% per covert ops skill level. Would be still 5 sec recalibration time but i can live with it and arround 10-15 sec lockingtime (Which would be still to high for a frig but its a step forward) ____________________________ [ 2005.03.31 20:53:50 ] (mining) Your Basic Miner perfectly strikes Veldspar Roid, wrecking for 20 Ore units.
Phoenicia	Posted - 2005.04.13 13:01:00 - [44] You¦re going about this the wrong way dammit! Warp in Fire ECM burst Cloak Align Warp out Rinse Repeat It takes a slightly different approach due to the Covert Ops Cloak not available on these things, but you adapt, you improvise, you overcome. Use a cloak for getting out, not for getting in. If you use it for getting in while you KNOW there are that many downsides, you deserve to get shot. ---=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--- CCP deleted my sig pic cause it was 50 pixels too wide and all I got was this lousy text.
Selim	Posted - 2005.04.13 13:05:00 - [45] Originally by: Phoenicia You¦re going about this the wrong way dammit! Warp in Fire ECM burst Cloak Align Warp out Rinse Repeat It takes a slightly different approach due to the Covert Ops Cloak not available on these things, but you adapt, you improvise, you overcome. Use a cloak for getting out, not for getting in. If you use it for getting in while you KNOW there are that many downsides, you deserve to get shot. YOU CANNOT warp while cloaked. And you get a 50% scan res no matter what.
Phoenicia	Posted - 2005.04.13 13:10:00 - [46] Edited by: Phoenicia on 13/04/2005 13:11:42 -edit- Whoops, you meant warping out. Well, add "uncloak" between align & warp out. The 0.2 seconds it takes to do that, NOTHING can lock & fire. ---=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--- CCP deleted my sig pic cause it was 50 pixels too wide and all I got was this lousy text.
DB Preacher	Posted - 2005.04.13 13:14:00 - [47] They will only be useful to those who find ways to make them useful. We already have a list of situations where they will be vital, don't you? dbp Current RKK Ranking: (CAL4) Soldier Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.
Altai Saker	Posted - 2005.04.13 13:16:00 - [48] Edited by: Altai Saker on 13/04/2005 13:17:26 They dont seem to useful to me, yeah you could **** around with them and be stupid, but I can do that better with cheaper ships... Bombers are a nifty novelty and all but I would rather have a ship worth its cost... oh and also I could kill 2 bombers at once in my taranis ALSO WTF AT THE MANTICORE BEING THE ONLY ONE WITH 3 LAUNCHER HP'S
Phoenicia	Posted - 2005.04.13 13:24:00 - [49] The Manticore is issued by the Might of the Caldari Navy! Ph33r US! We rock you with our missiles. Until we are nerfed, that is... ---=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--- CCP deleted my sig pic cause it was 50 pixels too wide and all I got was this lousy text.
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.04.13 13:40:00 - [50] ôWe already have a list of situations where they will be vital, don't you?ö Care to share the useful list? So far the few ideas posted in this thread do not work. I cannot think of anything that will make them vital. ôWarp in Fire ECM burst Cloak Align Warp out Rinse Repeatö You can do that with any ship. Basically you say we should pay for an expansive bomber that does the same job as a cruiser with a cloaking device. Though with hit and run you donÆt want a cloak installed you want to lock fast and warp fast. What about the time you waste moving the mouse to ECM burst, waiting for the burst to break lock then moving the mouse to cloak? Why not just fire then hit warp? Anyway I donÆt see the above as a useful method as warping out means you are only dinting a ship shields and letting them regen. Unless bomb ammo is added. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.04.13 13:40:00 - [51] Originally by: DB Preacher They will only be useful to those who find ways to make them useful. We already have a list of situations where they will be vital, don't you? dbp You mean ganking haulers? I actually thought they where going to be pretty good, but I completely forgot about the sensor res nerf that non-covert cloaks have. Sure you can fit some sensor boosters, but you arent going to be fitting much else as two of them have 4 mids, and the other 2 have 3 mids. If they didnt have the sensor nerf then 2-3 could kill lone ships. But with the nerf 2 bombers would be dead before they lock, and one doest have enough DPS to scare a T2 frig. And considering these ships are probably going to cost 20 mil plus 10mil for the Impro cloak, you may as well just use a cloaking assault frig. They either need to be able to warp cloaked or have no scan res bonus (covert ops has both of those), to be better then what we already have. But I see them as a freebie skill wise as I already trained for covert ops. --------------------------------------------------
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.04.13 13:42:00 - [52] Originally by: Phoenicia Edited by: Phoenicia on 13/04/2005 13:11:42 -edit- Whoops, you meant warping out. Well, add "uncloak" between align & warp out. The 0.2 seconds it takes to do that, NOTHING can lock & fire. Except even a BS can lock you in time. You also need an active target lock or your missiles will not hit. --------------------------------------------------
Chade Malloy	Posted - 2005.04.13 14:27:00 - [53] Edited by: Chade Malloy on 13/04/2005 14:27:21 At the current state if things i would say that they have their uses, but to fly one of these ships oyu already need aseasoned charaker with prolly several mil SP and a wallet big enough to buy such a ship & be able to afford the loss. So thats prolly already a BS-char. And if i¦m in the position to choose (as a fleet commander) between another BS at a gate-camp or a stealth bomber, i would choose the BS. (as someone already has pointed out) But thats just the current state of things... If there would be a module released called "Cruise BOMB launcher" which you can only fit on a stealth bomber, that fires "Cruise bombs" (slower than a torp, but twice the dmg output of a cruise missile) that would change things...(and make them TRUE bombers) Patience wins.
Mujun Kross	Posted - 2005.04.13 14:28:00 - [54] bombers just became available in game yesterday. noone has one yet (or at least noone has admitted to haveing oone), but the current argument going around is they are useless. this is the same argument that went around with the interceptors when they came out...the assualt frigs when they came out...and it will be the same argument when the enxt cool ship comes out. bombers have their place. i have several ideas that will be tested once i get my hands on these ships. my prediction is you will see a lot more of these ships than most people think...this is one of those thinking man ships. if you cant figure out how to use it wait a couple months and some other corps will show you how. . . . "Come now, my child, if we were planning to harm you, do you think we'd be lurking here, beside the path, in the very darkest part of the forest?" -Kenneth Patchen "But Even So"
Barak Gideon	Posted - 2005.04.13 14:29:00 - [55] Edited by: Barak Gideon on 13/04/2005 14:29:10 first fire Hunter EMP FOF missiles then another missile type in 2'nd volley, that way you don't need to lock target.
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.04.13 14:39:00 - [56] ôfirst fire Hunter EMP FOF missiles then another missile type in 2'nd volley, that way you don't need to lock target.ö Far as I am aware that does not work. FoF only hits hostile targets and for a target to be hostile it has to lock and hit you. ChanceÆs are if a ship has locked and hit your bomber your dead or about to die. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Zoon	Posted - 2005.04.13 14:44:00 - [57] They'll be fun in complexes. Get an assault frigate with a tank and a bomber or two behind it, and you've got a party! I found a really really good 2/10 which a friend and I barely managed in a rifter and a wolf. Next time we go back, I'll be taking a hound
Alexander Reikson	Posted - 2005.04.13 14:46:00 - [58] IMHO they will be really dreadful in chaos of fleet battles.
Seramis	Posted - 2005.04.13 14:50:00 - [59] Originally by: Sternburg Export Edited by: Sternburg Export on 13/04/2005 09:57:26 as they have an Bonus to speed while they are cloaked it will be senceless to unfitt the cloak on these ships. i must say, that there are a few good ideas were posted But lets face it. You know, there is a single APOC at the gate. You also know that his friends are at the other gate. You have a gang of 5-7 more or less experienced Bomber pilots. Let¦s say all have Manticores. So all can fire 3 CM`S what makes a total of 21 CM¦s with one volley. Your Covert Ops pilot gives you a nice warp in Point ~ 5km away from the target. Your gang is warping in. You lock the Target a start firing. let¦s do some Maths: Apoc Base stats vs. Cruise missile base stats. 1 volley contains 21 CM¦s right? ok. lets take the shield down. 4K shield hP / 300 DMG (using paradise cm¦s since an apoc isn¦t shieldtanked) = 13,3 CM¦s and the shield is gone. Now the armor. Theoretically we¦ll now make explosive DMG since an APOC has only 20% explosive resistance. so we have 4,8 k Armor 4.800 / (300 - (300 * 0,2)) = 20 CM¦s needed to take also the armor down. But have only 8 left from the first volley. Enough to take down a Cruiser easily, sure. But in the meantime he has called his friends who arrive ~ 20 - 30 sek after the first volley is fired. You have ~ 28 sec ROF with a Standart CM launcher before the second volley is on the way. You see the Point? Sure u can kill an APOC with 42 CM¦s but this is pure theory. The only thing i see imo is to use them against cruisers. But only whith hit and run tactics. Remember, If you cloak after killing this ship, you can¦t warp away. You also have the recalibration time and lesser scan resolution. also they aren¦t very fast from what i see. I don¦t want them to be UBER. but imo they have some disadvantages like the recalibration time and reactivation time of the cloak. As long as you have a single ship you¦ll have a good chance to kill it. As long as you are fighting something smaller then a single BS you also have a good chance. With this calculation the most ships are useless. Let's take some Interceptors, and then they attack the same Apoc in same situation. After 20 or 30s the friends of Apoc pilot are there for help. I doubt they have completely killed the Apoc when the help arrives. So your calculation is absolutely useless. Try another situation: There is a fleet at gate (some BS, some Cruiser, some Friggs). Another fleet jumps in (they had a spy there who told what they have to expect) and attacks. And then some cloaked Bombers of the waiting fleet uncloak. I think there are a lot of uses, and there are a lot of situations where the bombers are useless. But to say they are useless overall is bull****.
Shinshi Casoyako	Posted - 2005.04.13 15:01:00 - [60] Are there actually stats out somewere? Cause I would like to see those stats =) Seriously Have I Not Said How I Can Assist Some One You Are Killing Online?

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