| Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page] |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Sternburg Export
   |
Posted - 2005.04.13 06:38:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Sternburg Export on 13/04/2005 06:43:38
Today i looked into the Stats of Bombers....
mmmmkay.. the Manticore [Caldari] is able to mount 3 Cruise Missile Launchers (they almost take no PG if you have also Covert ops skill at 5)
they can move at fullspeed while cloaked (with max skills)
But what¦s with the sensor recalibration time?
imagine. you sneak to your Target (preferably a frig or ceptor if you are alone) then you decloak.. and Bang
You need still 10 sec until you are able to try to target somthing 
So you sit there. unable to do anything because of this. Your are also unable to decloak because of the reactivation time.
And firing a cruise missile 70km away form your Target is i little bit silly because they can warp away.
Also nobody can say if you can see them in the overview or only visual in space.
my Question is:
Can they target while they are Cloaked since they are stealth Bombers? and u see them only while they are shooting at you? and if they stop shooting you don¦t see them?
I can imagine that Bombers are a powerfull weapon at all. But imo they are useless.
An apoc can blow them up with 1 salvo of 6 tachs. They don¦t have the ability to survive 1 volley from a raven.
Not to mention what 1400er can do to them.
(edit:) if the Decloak / target thingy don¦t get "fixed".
i don¦t see any point of usage imo...
p.s.
i know that my English is bull**** 
so i excuse for my spelling errors and grammar
____________________________
[ 2005.03.31 20:53:50 ] (mining) Your Basic Miner perfectly strikes Veldspar Roid, wrecking for 20 Ore units.
|
Selim
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 06:42:00 -
[2]
They are pretty useless yes. Some people claim that they have some very good uses for them but its just not there. They dont do enough damage, and the scan res penalty + sensor recal penalty is a real kicker.
|
Christopher Multsanti
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 07:02:00 -
[3]
I think their potential lies in their ability to use hit and run tatics.
5 or 6 of these warp into a gate (uncloacked) destroy a lone battleship, in the process his friends warp, battleship goes pop, stealth bombers cloak (with new EW changes, jam the target if they are locked and then cloack) warp out and repeat.
|
Phoenicia
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 07:19:00 -
[4]
Cloaking isn¦t just for getting in.
Imagine 5 Stealth Bombers warping in on a Cruiser, firing one, maybe two volleys, ECM bursting to lose any lock, then cloaking.
I can see some applications of this new vessel. At the very least, leave the cloak off and fly around in a Frig that can fire cruise missiles.
---=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---
CCP deleted my sig pic cause it was 50 pixels too wide and all I got was this lousy text. |
Seir
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 07:20:00 -
[5]
I think the stealth bombers are meant to be part of fleets, not on their own. The idea behind them is that other ships will get the attention of the target/s and they can fire salvos. If they need to then they can cloak and get away due to the speed bonus they get while being cloaked. They're really not meant to be solo because then they will get jacked by bigger ships. Its a fleet ship, not a gank ship. I think you'll find that many "useless" ships do quite well when in a mixed fleet as opposed to alone or with a bunch of other ships of the same class.
|
Fred0
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 07:21:00 -
[6]
Well there's gotta be a use for anything that small that can fire cruise missiles. :)
|
Dufas
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 08:07:00 -
[7]
the locking time after decloaking is typical ccp thinking...give you something as cool as a bomber..but then handicap u so its useless in its purpose...its always 1 step forward 2 steps back
|
Kaylona Tso
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 08:16:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Kaylona Tso on 13/04/2005 08:16:47
Anyone from 2003 will tell you they are one of the neatest ships in the game. Anyone that ever used a Kestrel that could fire 4 cruiser missiles at a time that is. Quite honestly one of the funnest things in EVE was to fly frigs into pvp and take a cruiser to armor in one volley. These aren't as powerful, and rightly so, but they are in the times of cloaks, speed balance, and interceptor pwnage. Quite frankly, comming from a BS pilot, as soon as I can get my hands on a hound... thats what I will be using for quite some time. Not to mention I have a reason to train frig 5 for gallente now ( can you say Nemesis is l337... good I knew you could ).
And don't forget people... midslots are great for sensor boosters, sensor dampners, and the like so just because the ship's natual stats might lack in some areas there are ways around them that these ships are screeming for.
-----
|
FireFoxx80
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 08:17:00 -
[9]
Suicide Bombers?
ex P-TMC
If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
|
Seramis
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 08:21:00 -
[10]
I think they are not useless. U have the recalibration time, ok. But if you attack a Battleship that Battleship is not able to fire at you in the moment you decloak. An if this Battleship is fitted with long range weapon, and you decloak in 15km it can do only a little bit. The thing is, the Battleship needs some time to lock you. And if it is not a fast locking setup the locking time is longer than you need to lock the BS. The Stealth bombers should be careful against Frigs/interceptors, with cruiser they should be able to deal in small groups. I don't see them such useless.
|
Jim Steele
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 08:26:00 -
[11]
There is a way to get around the cloak penalty, remove the cloaking device 
Death to the Galante |
Shinshi Casoyako
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 08:28:00 -
[12]
Actually I think that a bomber would be pretty nice.
If you can fit an mwd and 3 cruise launchers on a caldari bomber than it could orbit a battleship with a good ammount of speed and keep shooting cruise missiles without being hit =)
Seriously Have I Not Said How I Can Assist Some One You Are Killing Online? |
Phoenicia
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 08:31:00 -
[13]
Ooh ooh!
Cruises go 2km/s, right? Frigs can go that speed too!
Warp in at 40, MWD towards target, firing cruises, adding more and more to the stack. Target gets spanked with 2/3 volleys at once 
Useful Pvp tactic? Probably not.
Fun? Yeah!
---=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---
CCP deleted my sig pic cause it was 50 pixels too wide and all I got was this lousy text. |
Selim
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 08:42:00 -
[14]
 Originally by: Kaylona Tso
Edited by: Kaylona Tso on 13/04/2005 08:16:47
Anyone from 2003 will tell you they are one of the neatest ships in the game. Anyone that ever used a Kestrel that could fire 4 cruiser missiles at a time that is. Quite honestly one of the funnest things in EVE was to fly frigs into pvp and take a cruiser to armor in one volley. These aren't as powerful, and rightly so, but they are in the times of cloaks, speed balance, and interceptor pwnage. Quite frankly, comming from a BS pilot, as soon as I can get my hands on a hound... thats what I will be using for quite some time. Not to mention I have a reason to train frig 5 for gallente now ( can you say Nemesis is l337... good I knew you could ).
And don't forget people... midslots are great for sensor boosters, sensor dampners, and the like so just because the ship's natual stats might lack in some areas there are ways around them that these ships are screeming for.
Sure they're neat and fun, I'll be getting all four when the price drops. But I don't think they'll be very useful compared to what we have nowadays. Way back when, we didn't have the wonders of tech 2 guns readily available, and cruisers were more common so they were actual targets.
Honestly i cant think of any reason to use one of these over a taranis or wolf. And thats the manticore I'm talking about, which can use 3 cruise launchers (with some fitting difficulty), all the others only have two.
I'd be alot happier if the hound had 3 launchers as well. I made my first pvp kills in a cruise breacher, so it would be really great to be able to have 3 cruise missiles on a tech 2 breacher again.
|
Thomas Torquemada
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 08:42:00 -
[15]
So they fire cruise missiles, in all honesty thats no big thing when a cloak on a ceptor is far better, and some ceptors can already deal out some impressive damage, esp in groups.
I Dont see any benefit to stealth bombers over fitting a cloak to an interceptor, their faster, and can avoid beign hit with reletive ease, and im guessing they cost less than bombers will do.
UPC - PVP'ers Good and Bad, How Do You Want Peace?
Through Talk Or In A Casket? We Decide!
Peace My Brothers... |
Phoenicia
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 09:03:00 -
[16]
I can see some useful applications for the little boogers. I was skeptical at first too, especially when I learned they will not be using a Covert Ops cloak, but after some thinking, I do see the benefits of these things.
Think about it: 2 frigs can now dish out similar damage to a Raven (ok not exactly right, but still!). As for the comparison to Inties, that¦s just crap. Like comparing a Covert Ops to an Assault frig, they have completey different uses.
---=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---
CCP deleted my sig pic cause it was 50 pixels too wide and all I got was this lousy text. |
CEO Rockhound
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 09:18:00 -
[17]
Bombers are for fishing..
you just need bait...
Norsk Gruvedrift.
We will rock you. |
Dawson
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 09:21:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Dawson on 13/04/2005 09:27:57
Hmmm dont you remember what used to happen when you could fit cruise missles to firgates. These things are gonna be a nightmare when hunting in packs.
Now with the added cloak you can just cruise into the center of any alliance space. I feel sorry for haulers.
You make it sound like you have 2 always use the cloak. Will be good to get into alliance space. Then just do as we did before. Then mabe use the cloak to get out of the alliance space.
If we had these when i was in OC when we were fighting SE we would of had so much fun.
Ambassador
Admiral of the Blue
Join BSC |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 09:24:00 -
[19]
They are submarines... for use against commerce and industry.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Sternburg Export
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 09:27:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Dawson
Hmmm dont you remember what used to happen when you could fit cruise missles to firgates. These things are gonna be a nightmare when hunting in packs.
Now with the added cloak you can just cruise into the center of any alliance space. I feel sorry for haulers.
/me remembers this time
but the Most frigs i have met were Intys loaded with CM¦s
The bombers aren¦t half as fast as an Inty.
Sure they will be usefull for hit and run tactics and u can kill cruisers very fast.. but for a bs you need at least 5 of them to kill it in an acceptable timeframe.
But i wouldn¦t mess with a Raven or Scorp in these ships unless you have some jammers fitted 
But yeah... Killing haulers and miners should be funny 
____________________________
[ 2005.03.31 20:53:50 ] (mining) Your Basic Miner perfectly strikes Veldspar Roid, wrecking for 20 Ore units.
|
Pottsey
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 09:45:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Pottsey on 13/04/2005 09:45:39
ôThe thing is, the Battleship needs some time to lock you. And if it is not a fast locking setup the locking time is longer than you need to lock the BS.ö
The battleship has more then enough time to lock you. The bombers lock time is over 30 seconds after decloaking. Even a basic battleship with no locking speed boosts should be able to lock the bomber in that time. ChanceÆs are the Battleship locks and sends drones at you long before the 30 seconds is up. Assuming you live 30 seconds you then have to wait longer before you can get a lock and fire back as a bomber.
ôThere is a way to get around the cloak penalty, remove the cloaking deviceö
Then you are wasting the ships bonusÆs. What the point in having a ship based around cloaking with bonusÆs to cloak if you donÆt fit a cloak?
ô2 frigs can now dish out similar damage to a Ravenö
It would take a good 8 you 10 bombers to equal the damage of 1 Raven and thatÆs not even with the ammo problem. I can see a group of bombers running out of ammo before there take down another battleship.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Meathook
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 09:49:00 -
[22]
i would not mind seeing these ships, i bet in big squads they are scary. Reminds me of the kessie when it could launch cruise missiles, some corps (merc one's, can't remember the name) made a habit of killing BS with these, and standard launchers could only hold 1 cruise per launcher, and no autoreload feature.
Main difference is that unlike the kessie, which could be replaced in a breath, these ships are going to be more costly to replace. In any case, it's not like that is going to stop pkers or pvpers around from finding a way to bring down a target. If stealth bombers can be reasonably mass produced fairly fast of course
________________________________________
"Parental advisory: Explicit typos" |
Phoenicia
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 09:51:00 -
[23]
8 to 10?! Sorry, I was thinking Caldari.
But still, 8 to 10 seems a bit exaggerated. Actually a whole lot.
And the main bonus of these things is the Cruise Missile launcher-fitting. The cloak will be... an added bonus.
---=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---
CCP deleted my sig pic cause it was 50 pixels too wide and all I got was this lousy text. |
Sternburg Export
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 09:56:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Sternburg Export on 13/04/2005 09:57:26
Originally by: Phoenicia
8 to 10?! Sorry, I was thinking Caldari.
But still, 8 to 10 seems a bit exaggerated. Actually a whole lot.
And the main bonus of these things is the Cruise Missile launcher-fitting. The cloak will be... an added bonus.
as they have an Bonus to speed while they are cloaked it will be senceless to unfitt the cloak on these ships.
i must say, that there are a few good ideas were posted
But lets face it.
You know, there is a single APOC at the gate. You also know that his friends are at the other gate.
You have a gang of 5-7 more or less experienced Bomber pilots. Let¦s say all have Manticores.
So all can fire 3 CM`S what makes a total of 21 CM¦s with one volley.
Your Covert Ops pilot gives you a nice warp in Point ~ 5km away from the target.
Your gang is warping in. You lock the Target a start firing.
let¦s do some Maths:
Apoc Base stats vs. Cruise missile base stats.
1 volley contains 21 CM¦s right?
ok. lets take the shield down.
4K shield hP / 300 DMG (using paradise cm¦s since an apoc isn¦t shieldtanked) = 13,3 CM¦s and the shield is gone.
Now the armor. Theoretically we¦ll now make explosive DMG since an APOC has only 20% explosive resistance.
so we have 4,8 k Armor
4.800 / (300 - (300 * 0,2)) = 20 CM¦s needed to take also the armor down.
But have only 8 left from the first volley.
Enough to take down a Cruiser easily, sure.
But in the meantime he has called his friends who arrive ~ 20 - 30 sek after the first volley is fired.
You have ~ 28 sec ROF with a Standart CM launcher before the second volley is on the way. You see the Point?
Sure u can kill an APOC with 42 CM¦s but this is pure theory.
The only thing i see imo is to use them against cruisers. But only whith hit and run tactics.
Remember, If you cloak after killing this ship, you can¦t warp away. You also have the recalibration time and lesser scan resolution. also they aren¦t very fast from what i see.
I don¦t want them to be UBER. but imo they have some disadvantages like the recalibration time and reactivation time of the cloak.
As long as you have a single ship you¦ll have a good chance to kill it. As long as you are fighting something smaller then a single BS you also have a good chance.
____________________________
[ 2005.03.31 20:53:50 ] (mining) Your Basic Miner perfectly strikes Veldspar Roid, wrecking for 20 Ore units.
|
Constance Retribution
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 10:10:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sternburg Export
imagine. you sneak to your Target (preferably a frig or ceptor if you are alone) then you decloak.. and Bang
You need still 10 sec until you are able to try to target somthing
I think you'll find that a Frigate or Interceptor is a poor choice of target for a Stealth Bomber. If anything you should be avoiding these as you can be sure that fairly soon, a cruise missile will not be an anti-frigate weapon.
Due to their inability to warp cloaked, I can't see stealth bombers being a first strike weapon in a fleet engagement. I foress their role being something akin to this in a fleet battle:
Main fleet attacks and draws the enemy big gun fire, and attention. Enemy escorts move to engage main fleet frigates. Stealth Bombers warp in from the side or rear, and target a battleship, fireing a volley immediately. If untargeted, cloak immediately. If targetted, use EW to break lock, then cloak. Move to an advantageous position, wait till it is beneficial to strike, decloak, wait, lock, fire. If timed well, that BS that was about to warp goes boom. Of course, by now, you'll probably have escorts to deal with.
The other use, as has been stated is submarine warfare. Ambush tactics on vulnerable targets, then fade away again.
|
Pottsey
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 10:17:00 -
[26]
ö8 to 10?! Sorry, I was thinking Caldari.ö
Even then it would take 8+. You have to fit all your low slots with powergrid boosts to fit a 3rd weapon which leaves little powergrid for defence or mid slot models. Then you have the ammo problem, I am not a missile user so I could be wrong but surly with 3 launchÆs your going run out of ammo with those small cargo holds fast? As long as the Battleship has a few hardeners or some sort of passive or active defence I can see the bombers running out of ammo long before killing the battleship.
ôBut still, 8 to 10 seems a bit exaggerated. Actually a whole lot.ö
Not really the Raven has room for lots of damage mods, can boost weapon fire rates with modules and has in bonus of faster fire rates. Once you take into account the defence modules and option of torps I think its fair to say it takes 8+ bombers to match a Raven. I donÆt see less then 8 bombers taken down a semi tanked battleship.
The Raven should be able to kill the bomber in 1 hit or 2 max and if bomber fires then warps out its never going kill its target. Thinking about it a Raven could kill 3 bombers in its first volley.
I plan to use bombers but not against Battleships.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Hast
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 10:31:00 -
[27]
all this "warp 5 bombers to a gate and cloak and stuff", you can do that alot better with 5 interceptors, and if you mix a couple of Assault frigs aswell then you have a serious force.
Only thing they have going for them is that they can move faster then those ships while cloaked...
|
Airios
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 10:36:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Airios on 13/04/2005 10:36:33
imo, if they cant warp while cloaked they more or less worthless. To wage this submarine war you talk, they pritty much need to sit cloaked at same spot all time. In therse days of instas i would be suprised if they would outprefom ceptors.
They seem to have pretty limited field of use. iguess the intended area for these ships is fleet action. The problem is, useing them in fleets would be a waste of firepower when 4-8 pilots fly around cloaked trying to get close to a lone cruiser or whatnot and fire away. When they could create much more havoc in a ordinary battleships.
Sorry CCP i just cant see them without the ability to warped cloaked.
Also im afraid the cruise missiles/cloak combo is just for show.
____________________________________________________
|
Knoppaz
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 10:40:00 -
[29]
I'm playing like 1 month now, so I have only basic knowledge, but one thing I noticed I really don't understand..
Why is everyone comparing everything to Battleships?
I noticed that first when I asked about Destroyers. It was said that they're toast against a Battleship.. duh, of course they are
Now I see the same again here and I don't really understand it. Even with my basic knowledge I wouldn't take a single Bomber against a Battleship. I agree with some other comments that they are best used to get rid of enemy cargo runners and support ships.
See a Battleship? Either cloak and stay calm or warp out imho..
___________________
2005.05.06 19:35:17combatYour 650mm Medium Prototype I Siege Cannon perfectly strikes Angel Liquidator, wrecking for 438.7 damage. |
fairimear
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 10:44:00 -
[30]
omg haxor fit 2/3 cruise improved cloak.
dampers
wcs.
warp in fire. cloak alline for warp out decloak leave.
work in groups of 3-4 and you are all good for larger targets
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world Domination.
|
Airios
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 10:47:00 -
[31]
When wageing war the goal is to caouse damage against your opponent, why use thise ships if other can do it more efficient. 8 peps in stelthbombers during fleet action or (god forbid) a gatecamp op. Or, 8 additional battleships/ceptors?
____________________________________________________
|
Selim
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 11:17:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Selim on 13/04/2005 11:18:34
Originally by: Hast
all this "warp 5 bombers to a gate and cloak and stuff", you can do that alot better with 5 interceptors, and if you mix a couple of Assault frigs aswell then you have a serious force.
Only thing they have going for them is that they can move faster then those ships while cloaked...
exactly.
These things need to have the sig radius penalty removed. As well as the sensor recalibration time.
I also think they should use torpedos... right now even the caldari one is pathetically weak. And after the missile fix, these things will be useless even against frigates. While already being dumb vs battleships.
|
MutationZ
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 11:28:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Selim
Edited by: Selim on 13/04/2005 11:18:34
Originally by: Hast
all this "warp 5 bombers to a gate and cloak and stuff", you can do that alot better with 5 interceptors, and if you mix a couple of Assault frigs aswell then you have a serious force.
Only thing they have going for them is that they can move faster then those ships while cloaked...
exactly.
These things need to have the sig radius penalty removed. As well as the sensor recalibration time.
I also think they should use torpedos... right now even the caldari one is pathetically weak. And after the missile fix, these things will be useless even against frigates. While already being dumb vs battleships.
Its a FRIG sized ship. Its not meant to take down a bs. Jeezus.
|
theRaptor
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 11:29:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Knoppaz
Now I see the same again here and I don't really understand it. Even with my basic knowledge I wouldn't take a single Bomber against a Battleship. I agree with some other comments that they are best used to get rid of enemy cargo runners and support ships.
See a Battleship? Either cloak and stay calm or warp out imho..
The point is that bombers are toast against most PVP frigs, and especially Interceptors. Which can either outrun the missiles, or toast the bomber before it locks. And after the missile nerf cruise should be even worse against frigs.
So other then whacking Indys, a few bombers should be able to take out a lone BS. But with the locking penalty of cloaks, and the scanner recalibration time, a BS will lock a bomber first. And one cruise missile from a BS will put a bomber in structure.
In most PVP you are either facing T2 frigs or BS. And bombers are not a good idea for use against either.
And for killing Indys a cloaked Inty or Assault frig is probably better. So bombers are pretty much just for the novelty factor of having frigs that fire cruise missles again (Which only used to be so effective because it was cheap).
--------------------------------------------------
|
Selim
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 11:30:00 -
[35]
Originally by: MutationZ
Originally by: Selim
Edited by: Selim on 13/04/2005 11:18:34
Originally by: Hast
all this "warp 5 bombers to a gate and cloak and stuff", you can do that alot better with 5 interceptors, and if you mix a couple of Assault frigs aswell then you have a serious force.
Only thing they have going for them is that they can move faster then those ships while cloaked...
exactly.
These things need to have the sig radius penalty removed. As well as the sensor recalibration time.
I also think they should use torpedos... right now even the caldari one is pathetically weak. And after the missile fix, these things will be useless even against frigates. While already being dumb vs battleships.
Its a FRIG sized ship. Its not meant to take down a bs. Jeezus.
Too bad it sucks versus everything else! Even an indy will warp out before you get a lock.
And its a BOMBER. Its supposed to be uber against capital ships (Battleships).
|
theRaptor
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 11:31:00 -
[36]
Originally by: MutationZ
Originally by: Selim
Edited by: Selim on 13/04/2005 11:18:34
Originally by: Hast
all this "warp 5 bombers to a gate and cloak and stuff", you can do that alot better with 5 interceptors, and if you mix a couple of Assault frigs aswell then you have a serious force.
Only thing they have going for them is that they can move faster then those ships while cloaked...
exactly.
These things need to have the sig radius penalty removed. As well as the sensor recalibration time.
I also think they should use torpedos... right now even the caldari one is pathetically weak. And after the missile fix, these things will be useless even against frigates. While already being dumb vs battleships.
Its a FRIG sized ship. Its not meant to take down a bs. Jeezus.
Oh yeah is it supposed to tank a T2 frig for the 30 seconds it will take to lock?
Get a clue.
--------------------------------------------------
|
MutationZ
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 11:37:00 -
[37]
All I'm saying is it will have a niche and its up to the players to find it.
All the naysayers are already bemoaning all of its attributes without even having tried it out.
I have a clue, some things it will be useful for, marginal for others and useless for some things. Bemoaning something that its obviously useless for is dumb.
|
Knoppaz
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 11:48:00 -
[38]
Ok, I understand the locking time thingy, but what is that scanner recalibration? I don't have the skill yet to find out myself 
Anyway, Cruise missles have a base damage of 300hp. Add the regular missile modifiers + the Bomber specialization modifiers to it and you you'll have a lot of punch per volley.
No idea if there is a way around the locking time problem (sensor boosters maybe?), but it's not that Bombers are superslow. With Nanofibers and the small sig they have, they might be hard to target for everything above Frigs and maybe Cruisers (again, this is an asumption based on my basic knowledge).
I could image that one volley of a high skilled Bomber can be very dangerous to a Cruiser and EW might help with escaping (I don't think tanking is a viable option for Bombers).
___________________
2005.05.06 19:35:17combatYour 650mm Medium Prototype I Siege Cannon perfectly strikes Angel Liquidator, wrecking for 438.7 damage. |
Vortex Freeman
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 11:48:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Vortex Freeman on 13/04/2005 11:48:12
Stealth Bombers suck and they are completely useless. Now go mine some veldspar, you know you want to.
---
Vortex Freeman
CEO - Roving Guns Inc.
~ Preparatus Supervivet ~ |
theRaptor
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 11:56:00 -
[40]
Originally by: MutationZ
All I'm saying is it will have a niche and its up to the players to find it.
All the naysayers are already bemoaning all of its attributes without even having tried it out.
I have a clue, some things it will be useful for, marginal for others and useless for some things. Bemoaning something that its obviously useless for is dumb.
Get a clue. I am a cloaking *specialist*, I use cloaking cruisers for PVP, and I use Impro cloaked Tier 1 frigs as cheap scouts (I also have covert ops).
I am bemoaning bombers because I use Improved cloaks and know how ****ty they are. Even with very high skills the minimum lock time with an imrpoved cloak is 8-10 seconds (which is the scanner recalibration time after uncloaking), but because of the scan res nerf of cloaks and the bombers crappy base scan res, you will be lucky to lock a BS in 30 seconds.
And bombers are not going to be tanking the heavy drones from a BS's, that will have the bomber half dead before it locks. No EW can save you then.
Bombers have a role, but its a role that is done better by cloaked Intys/Assault frigs, and cheaper by T1 cruisers.
I will be getting a bomber as soon as I can, but it has very little to recommend it above a cruiser with a cloak.
--------------------------------------------------
|
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 12:06:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Gariuys on 13/04/2005 12:06:11
Well they're a good reason for me to finally get into cloaking, Nemesis looks nice. And 4 months from now, we'll all laugh at the people that said they where useless.
And don't you all find the whole, but no no with this l33t setup on my t1 cruiser I can do what that does better, getting old? So you can do similair things ( not the same, it IS a frig and it does lock better etc. and it has that speed bonus ) in another ship. That's eve flexibility, not some lacking.
There's nothing my deimos can do that my megathron couldn't do equally well. But that doesn't make the deimos useless, on the contrary, it's one of the msot populair ships around.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Pottsey
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 12:09:00 -
[42]
ôOk, I understand the locking time thingy, but what is that scanner recalibration? I don't have the skill yet to find out myselfö
When you decloak you have to wait for scanner recalibration before you can start to try to lock a target. Scanner recalibration takes 20 seconds but you can lower it a bit by skills. On top of waiting before you start to lock the cloak also has a û40% to scan resolution meaning you take almost twice as long as normal to lock your target.
So you end up waiting a while before you can start to lock then waiting ages to get a lock, all the time hoping no one shoots at you.
The other bit people forget is you cannot cloak right after uncloaking so no hit, cloak and run tactics. More Uncloak, wait, hit, wait, cloak run.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Sternburg Export
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 12:41:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Sternburg Export on 13/04/2005 12:42:39
Originally by: Pottsey
The other bit people forget is you cannot cloak right after uncloaking so no hit, cloak and run tactics. More Uncloak, wait, hit, wait, cloak run.
It¦s more like:
Uncloak
wait
...
...
wait even longer
...
...
Hit if still alive
decloak
realize you are logged
Warp away / log off
I love those people posting facts while i¦m not ingame.. i didn¦t think about the scan resolution thingy as i made this topic.
>20 sec lockingtime is uhmmmm damn... How many sensor booster II¦s can i fit?
Frig sized ships that can fire Cruise missiles are a powerfull weapon > FACT
But with the disadvantages imo the Bombers are nearly useless. To give them full scan resolution and to remove sensor recalibration time wouldt make them to UBER.
Instead of Cruise missile velocity bonus or [insert weapon bonus of Bombers here] the devs should add a bonus to scan resolution and Sensor recalibration time.
Maybe 10% per covert ops skill level.
Would be still 5 sec recalibration time but i can live with it
and arround 10-15 sec lockingtime (Which would be still to high for a frig but its a step forward)
____________________________
[ 2005.03.31 20:53:50 ] (mining) Your Basic Miner perfectly strikes Veldspar Roid, wrecking for 20 Ore units.
|
Phoenicia
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 13:01:00 -
[44]
You¦re going about this the wrong way dammit!
Warp in
Fire
ECM burst
Cloak
Align
Warp out
Rinse
Repeat
It takes a slightly different approach due to the Covert Ops Cloak not available on these things, but you adapt, you improvise, you overcome.
Use a cloak for getting out, not for getting in. If you use it for getting in while you KNOW there are that many downsides, you deserve to get shot.
---=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---
CCP deleted my sig pic cause it was 50 pixels too wide and all I got was this lousy text. |
Selim
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 13:05:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Phoenicia
You¦re going about this the wrong way dammit!
Warp in
Fire
ECM burst
Cloak
Align
Warp out
Rinse
Repeat
It takes a slightly different approach due to the Covert Ops Cloak not available on these things, but you adapt, you improvise, you overcome.
Use a cloak for getting out, not for getting in. If you use it for getting in while you KNOW there are that many downsides, you deserve to get shot.
YOU CANNOT warp while cloaked.
And you get a 50% scan res no matter what.
|
Phoenicia
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 13:10:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Phoenicia on 13/04/2005 13:11:42
-edit-
Whoops, you meant warping out. Well, add "uncloak" between align & warp out. The 0.2 seconds it takes to do that, NOTHING can lock & fire.
---=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---
CCP deleted my sig pic cause it was 50 pixels too wide and all I got was this lousy text. |
DB Preacher
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 13:14:00 -
[47]
They will only be useful to those who find ways to make them useful.
We already have a list of situations where they will be vital, don't you?
dbp
Current RKK Ranking: (CAL4) Soldier
Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.
|
Altai Saker
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 13:16:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Altai Saker on 13/04/2005 13:17:26
They dont seem to useful to me, yeah you could **** around with them and be stupid, but I can do that better with cheaper ships... Bombers are a nifty novelty and all but I would rather have a ship worth its cost... oh and also I could kill 2 bombers at once in my taranis
ALSO WTF AT THE MANTICORE BEING THE ONLY ONE WITH 3 LAUNCHER HP'S
|
Phoenicia
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 13:24:00 -
[49]
The Manticore is issued by the Might of the Caldari Navy! Ph33r US! We rock you with our missiles. Until we are nerfed, that is...
---=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---
CCP deleted my sig pic cause it was 50 pixels too wide and all I got was this lousy text. |
Pottsey
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 13:40:00 -
[50]
ôWe already have a list of situations where they will be vital, don't you?ö
Care to share the useful list? So far the few ideas posted in this thread do not work. I cannot think of anything that will make them vital.
ôWarp in
Fire
ECM burst
Cloak
Align
Warp out
Rinse
Repeatö
You can do that with any ship. Basically you say we should pay for an expansive bomber that does the same job as a cruiser with a cloaking device. Though with hit and run you donÆt want a cloak installed you want to lock fast and warp fast.
What about the time you waste moving the mouse to ECM burst, waiting for the burst to break lock then moving the mouse to cloak? Why not just fire then hit warp? Anyway I donÆt see the above as a useful method as warping out means you are only dinting a ship shields and letting them regen. Unless bomb ammo is added.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
theRaptor
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 13:40:00 -
[51]
Originally by: DB Preacher
They will only be useful to those who find ways to make them useful.
We already have a list of situations where they will be vital, don't you?
dbp
You mean ganking haulers?
I actually thought they where going to be pretty good, but I completely forgot about the sensor res nerf that non-covert cloaks have. Sure you can fit some sensor boosters, but you arent going to be fitting much else as two of them have 4 mids, and the other 2 have 3 mids.
If they didnt have the sensor nerf then 2-3 could kill lone ships. But with the nerf 2 bombers would be dead before they lock, and one doest have enough DPS to scare a T2 frig. And considering these ships are probably going to cost 20 mil plus 10mil for the Impro cloak, you may as well just use a cloaking assault frig.
They either need to be able to warp cloaked or have no scan res bonus (covert ops has both of those), to be better then what we already have. But I see them as a freebie skill wise as I already trained for covert ops.
--------------------------------------------------
|
theRaptor
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 13:42:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Phoenicia
Edited by: Phoenicia on 13/04/2005 13:11:42
-edit-
Whoops, you meant warping out. Well, add "uncloak" between align & warp out. The 0.2 seconds it takes to do that, NOTHING can lock & fire.
Except even a BS can lock you in time. You also need an active target lock or your missiles will not hit.
--------------------------------------------------
|
Chade Malloy
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 14:27:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Chade Malloy on 13/04/2005 14:27:21
At the current state if things i would say that they have their uses, but to fly one of these ships oyu already need aseasoned charaker with prolly several mil SP and a wallet big enough to buy such a ship & be able to afford the loss. So thats prolly already a BS-char.
And if i¦m in the position to choose (as a fleet commander) between another BS at a gate-camp or a stealth bomber, i would choose the BS. (as someone already has pointed out)
But thats just the current state of things...
If there would be a module released called "Cruise BOMB launcher" which you can only fit on a stealth bomber, that fires "Cruise bombs" (slower than a torp, but twice the dmg output of a cruise missile) that would change things...(and make them TRUE bombers)
Patience wins. |
Mujun Kross
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 14:28:00 -
[54]
bombers just became available in game yesterday. noone has one yet (or at least noone has admitted to haveing oone), but the current argument going around is they are useless. this is the same argument that went around with the interceptors when they came out...the assualt frigs when they came out...and it will be the same argument when the enxt cool ship comes out.
bombers have their place. i have several ideas that will be tested once i get my hands on these ships. my prediction is you will see a lot more of these ships than most people think...this is one of those thinking man ships. if you cant figure out how to use it wait a couple months and some other corps will show you how.
.
.
.
"Come now, my child, if we were planning to harm you, do you think we'd be lurking here, beside the path, in the very darkest part of the forest?"
-Kenneth Patchen "But Even So" |
Barak Gideon
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 14:29:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Barak Gideon on 13/04/2005 14:29:10
first fire Hunter EMP FOF missiles then another missile type in 2'nd volley, that way you don't need to lock target.
|
Pottsey
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 14:39:00 -
[56]
ôfirst fire Hunter EMP FOF missiles then another missile type in 2'nd volley, that way you don't need to lock target.ö
Far as I am aware that does not work. FoF only hits hostile targets and for a target to be hostile it has to lock and hit you. ChanceÆs are if a ship has locked and hit your bomber your dead or about to die.
_________________________________________________
Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source. |
Zoon
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 14:44:00 -
[57]
They'll be fun in complexes. Get an assault frigate with a tank and a bomber or two behind it, and you've got a party!
I found a really really good 2/10 which a friend and I barely managed in a rifter and a wolf.
Next time we go back, I'll be taking a hound 
|
Alexander Reikson
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 14:46:00 -
[58]
IMHO they will be really dreadful in chaos of fleet battles.
|
Seramis
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 14:50:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Sternburg Export
Edited by: Sternburg Export on 13/04/2005 09:57:26
as they have an Bonus to speed while they are cloaked it will be senceless to unfitt the cloak on these ships.
i must say, that there are a few good ideas were posted
But lets face it.
You know, there is a single APOC at the gate. You also know that his friends are at the other gate.
You have a gang of 5-7 more or less experienced Bomber pilots. Let¦s say all have Manticores.
So all can fire 3 CM`S what makes a total of 21 CM¦s with one volley.
Your Covert Ops pilot gives you a nice warp in Point ~ 5km away from the target.
Your gang is warping in. You lock the Target a start firing.
let¦s do some Maths:
Apoc Base stats vs. Cruise missile base stats.
1 volley contains 21 CM¦s right?
ok. lets take the shield down.
4K shield hP / 300 DMG (using paradise cm¦s since an apoc isn¦t shieldtanked) = 13,3 CM¦s and the shield is gone.
Now the armor. Theoretically we¦ll now make explosive DMG since an APOC has only 20% explosive resistance.
so we have 4,8 k Armor
4.800 / (300 - (300 * 0,2)) = 20 CM¦s needed to take also the armor down.
But have only 8 left from the first volley.
Enough to take down a Cruiser easily, sure.
But in the meantime he has called his friends who arrive ~ 20 - 30 sek after the first volley is fired.
You have ~ 28 sec ROF with a Standart CM launcher before the second volley is on the way. You see the Point?
Sure u can kill an APOC with 42 CM¦s but this is pure theory.
The only thing i see imo is to use them against cruisers. But only whith hit and run tactics.
Remember, If you cloak after killing this ship, you can¦t warp away. You also have the recalibration time and lesser scan resolution. also they aren¦t very fast from what i see.
I don¦t want them to be UBER. but imo they have some disadvantages like the recalibration time and reactivation time of the cloak.
As long as you have a single ship you¦ll have a good chance to kill it. As long as you are fighting something smaller then a single BS you also have a good chance.
With this calculation the most ships are useless. Let's take some Interceptors, and then they attack the same Apoc in same situation. After 20 or 30s the friends of Apoc pilot are there for help. I doubt they have completely killed the Apoc when the help arrives. So your calculation is absolutely useless.
Try another situation:
There is a fleet at gate (some BS, some Cruiser, some Friggs). Another fleet jumps in (they had a spy there who told what they have to expect) and attacks. And then some cloaked Bombers of the waiting fleet uncloak.
I think there are a lot of uses, and there are a lot of situations where the bombers are useless. But to say they are useless overall is bull****.
|
Shinshi Casoyako
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 15:01:00 -
[60]
Are there actually stats out somewere?
Cause I would like to see those stats =)
Seriously Have I Not Said How I Can Assist Some One You Are Killing Online? |
Eira Eldan
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 15:05:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Eira Eldan on 13/04/2005 15:11:52
Edited by: Eira Eldan on 13/04/2005 15:08:25
Quote:
Try another situation:
There is a fleet at gate (some BS, some Cruiser, some Friggs). Another fleet jumps in (they had a spy there who told what they have to expect) and attacks. And then some cloaked Bombers of the waiting fleet uncloak.
And had those been battleships uncloaking isntead of Bombers, the enemy fleet would be at a far bigger disadvantage. Your point?
[Edit: When comparing a Raven to X Bombers, bear in mind that the Raven has this nifty ROF bonus, the ability to fit 5 BCUs and the ability to tank decently. The DPS of a single bomber proabably won't match the DPS of one siege launcher on a Raven. Thus, 8+ is a very, very low estimate.
And most importantly, 8+ pilots with high skill point totals to match a single pilot who could have 4 million SPs and still be effective? What's the point? Frigates have 2 main roles, tackler or escort, bombers do neither very well. I'm going to reserve final judgement until I've seen them in action more, but based on what I've seen of them so far, they aren't very efficient, costwise and pilotwise.]
|
H0ot
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 15:14:00 -
[62]
Since they can't fit covert ops cloak, useless. And its kinda lame that they fire plain ol' Cruise missiles. Would be nice if they had a payload of actual bombs or explosives that could be attached a Battleship's hull or something.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
Trey Azagthoth
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 15:17:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Trey Azagthoth on 13/04/2005 15:19:04
guys, as far as I know, Bombers wont use cloaking devices, they will use stealth devices. Check
eve-i.com
EDIT: Stealth Systems
Vin Diesel claims he has never hailed a taxi. He just runs up to them at stop lights, opens the door, shoves the current passenger over, and tells the cab driver what his new destination is. |
Jack Blank
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 15:31:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Jack Blank on 13/04/2005 15:33:04
Originally by: Trey Azagthoth
Edited by: Trey Azagthoth on 13/04/2005 15:19:04
guys, as far as I know, Bombers wont use cloaking devices, they will use stealth devices. Check
eve-i.com
how do you know eve-i arnt relying on old data? have you been on the test server or even bothered to look on the stats ingame in eve? I think not, stealth bombers have bonuses to cloak speed and can carry cruise missiles.
|
Zachios Primos
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 15:40:00 -
[65]
maybe now since there are "frigs" that can fire cruise we can break out those old kessies we have fitted with cruise from back in the day and use em without getting banned 
____________________ |
Clan MacGregor
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 18:23:00 -
[66]
Removing the ability to use a covert ops cloak make me wonder why they even included the covert ops skill as a requirement to fly the ship
Me thinks it is a leftover from the Sigi server that never got changed to standard cloaking...
Figures - a good idea shot to ****
|
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 18:31:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Clan MacGregor
Removing the ability to use a covert ops cloak make me wonder why they even included the covert ops skill as a requirement to fly the ship
Me thinks it is a leftover from the Sigi server that never got changed to standard cloaking...
Figures - a good idea shot to ****
Cause it's a covert ops line ship?
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Guardian Alpha
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 18:40:00 -
[68]
You are all jumping the gun far too fast on this. The bomber was only released just barley a day ago. Like when people whined about the uselessness of destroyers, and even farther back when they whined about the uselessness of assult ships, they are going to whine about bombers. BUT, give bombers time.
Just like the destroyers, the good players will find the best use for them to be effective. And thus become popular.
Just like the assult ships, the good players will find the best use for them to be effective. And thus become popular.
Give people time to test stradegies, configurations, kit setups, fleet/npc/pvp usage ideas, and then we can forumlate a good opinion. Any whining or complaining right now is just you all doing math and not liking the numbers, versus actually trying and testing the ship with your bare hands. Patience, and good things may come of this ship.
------------
|
BIRDofPREY
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 19:05:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Gariuys
Originally by: Clan MacGregor
Removing the ability to use a covert ops cloak make me wonder why they even included the covert ops skill as a requirement to fly the ship
Me thinks it is a leftover from the Sigi server that never got changed to standard cloaking...
Figures - a good idea shot to ****
Cause it's a covert ops line ship?
Then it should use covert ops equipment - by simple definition.
While there have been a number of improvements in the lag and frame rate - changes to game play are nonsensical.
I am beginning to see this one more as a regressive patch than a step ahead.
Your 650mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Serpentis Guard, wrecking for 340.0 damage |
Roba
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 19:11:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Sternburg Export
mmmmkay.. the Manticore [Caldari] is able to mount 3 Cruise Missile Launchers (they almost take no PG if you have also Covert ops skill at 5)
Ummmmmm wrong... the bonus is from the frigate skill which is at lvl 5 to fly the ship. Even with it at lvl 5 3 cruise launchers take 52.5 pwrgrid total. The Manticore has 30 grid base, 37.5 with lvl 5 enginering.
Do we see the problem? To fit the launchers one needs to fill all the low slots with aux pwr cores.
So... you have just enough pwr to fit 3 arb cruise and 1 improved cloak, nothing else.
|
Harry Voyager
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 19:34:00 -
[71]
Logistics Cruisers
|
Shirei
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 19:43:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Shirei on 13/04/2005 19:43:06
I don't think they are meant to sneak up on people with their cloak on.
A more practical use against larger ships might be.. Jump in/warp in, lock, fire cruises and then cloak to get away before the target has locked you. They should be able to lock a cruiser/BS faster than it can lock them back, so it should be fairly safe that way unless the target has a lot of sensor boosters.
Don't know if it's worth using them for that though considering 2-3 cruise launchers don't give exactly stellar damage.
|
theRaptor
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 20:00:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Shirei
A more practical use against larger ships might be.. Jump in/warp in, lock, fire cruises and then cloak to get away before the target has locked you. They should be able to lock a cruiser/BS faster than it can lock them back, so it should be fairly safe that way unless the target has a lot of sensor boosters.
Lots of sensor boosters like 1/3 of commonly seen ship fittings? Which will probably be more like 3/4 with ECM changes meaning a fast lock time is better then a tank.
These ships could work if they had a bonus that negated the scan res nerf of non-covert cloak. As it stands their only cloaking bonus makes them go faster then cloaked (by a tiny amount once the -75% speed nerf of Impros is counted). So the whole reason you would use one cloaked is so you can cloak and run out to 300km to warp off. Actually laying in wait at a gate can be done just as well by any other ship with an Impro cloak.
To sum up these ships make no sense with cruise missiles, if they fired short range bombs then the speed bonus would actually be useful.
--------------------------------------------------
|
BIRDofPREY
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 20:40:00 -
[74]
Originally by: theRaptor
Originally by: Shirei
A more practical use against larger ships might be.. Jump in/warp in, lock, fire cruises and then cloak to get away before the target has locked you. They should be able to lock a cruiser/BS faster than it can lock them back, so it should be fairly safe that way unless the target has a lot of sensor boosters.
Lots of sensor boosters like 1/3 of commonly seen ship fittings? Which will probably be more like 3/4 with ECM changes meaning a fast lock time is better then a tank.
These ships could work if they had a bonus that negated the scan res nerf of non-covert cloak. As it stands their only cloaking bonus makes them go faster then cloaked (by a tiny amount once the -75% speed nerf of Impros is counted). So the whole reason you would use one cloaked is so you can cloak and run out to 300km to warp off. Actually laying in wait at a gate can be done just as well by any other ship with an Impro cloak.
To sum up these ships make no sense with cruise missiles, if they fired short range bombs then the speed bonus would actually be useful.
With the ship only using an improved cloak - it make no sense to use a fragile ship (as well as an expensive one) in combat, when a larger, more powerful ship can do pretty much the same.
The only saving grace is the speed while cloaked. And that ain't much...
Your 650mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Serpentis Guard, wrecking for 340.0 damage |
Buster Hymen
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 20:47:00 -
[75]
Or fired torpedoes and gave a 10% bonus per level to their speed & damage. It'd be a tad unsettling to think you're safe in a big ship only to see 3 bombers uncloak 20 km from you and unload a volley of 9 torpedoes.
Odds are the BS pilot is going to be a bit more concerned about saving his 100M isk BS than to calculate wether they can surrvive the 450+225 x 9 = 6075 damage per volley.
However, the above is just fantasy. I think the real value of these ships is going to be as rear echelon raiders to blow up mining barges and haulers of other corps yours happens to be at war with.
______________________________________________
Won't you give to the Minmatar Orphans of War Charities? With your generous donation of ore or isk, we can reunite a Minmatar slave with his family. |
Grut
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 20:55:00 -
[76]
imo you can get some pretty reasonable anti frig setups on them, though afs & cruisers would be a problem. ofc this is before the missile changes. The dot is just to low to be effective against anything bigger, your average inty has higher and even if it has to get close for that damage is just as surviveable from its lower siggy and higher speed.
so in short
bombers = anti frig
cloak other then covert = useless
Mostly harmless |
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 21:07:00 -
[77]
Originally by: BIRDofPREY
Originally by: theRaptor
Originally by: Shirei
A more practical use against larger ships might be.. Jump in/warp in, lock, fire cruises and then cloak to get away before the target has locked you. They should be able to lock a cruiser/BS faster than it can lock them back, so it should be fairly safe that way unless the target has a lot of sensor boosters.
Lots of sensor boosters like 1/3 of commonly seen ship fittings? Which will probably be more like 3/4 with ECM changes meaning a fast lock time is better then a tank.
These ships could work if they had a bonus that negated the scan res nerf of non-covert cloak. As it stands their only cloaking bonus makes them go faster then cloaked (by a tiny amount once the -75% speed nerf of Impros is counted). So the whole reason you would use one cloaked is so you can cloak and run out to 300km to warp off. Actually laying in wait at a gate can be done just as well by any other ship with an Impro cloak.
To sum up these ships make no sense with cruise missiles, if they fired short range bombs then the speed bonus would actually be useful.
With the ship only using an improved cloak - it make no sense to use a fragile ship (as well as an expensive one) in combat, when a larger, more powerful ship can do pretty much the same.
The only saving grace is the speed while cloaked. And that ain't much...
Then why use a HAC, or a assault frigate? or... there's a part of this game that is called having fun. Doesn't mean a ship should be useless, and these aren't. But also means that not every ship has to be bristling with clear cut strategies, just so there are no threads filled with OMG this ship is useless.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Arte
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 21:54:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Roba
Ummmmmm wrong... the bonus is from the frigate skill which is at lvl 5 to fly the ship. Even with it at lvl 5 3 cruise launchers take 52.5 pwrgrid total. The Manticore has 30 grid base, 37.5 with lvl 5 enginering.
Do we see the problem? To fit the launchers one needs to fill all the low slots with aux pwr cores.
So... you have just enough pwr to fit 3 arb cruise and 1 improved cloak, nothing else.
You're wrong. The manticore also has a cruise missile launcher "grid use bonus" based on the "covert ops skill" which is 5% per level. This will reduce the total grid requirements for the manticore with 3 launchers to 40mw (rounded up) if you have covert ops at lvl 5, or more realistically speaking, 42mw for the majority who will have covert ops skill at lvl 4.
With my skills MAPC give 12.5mw grid instead of 10mw. (think that is engineering 5. anyone confirm or rectify that?).
One Micro-aux Power core Fitted
37.5mw + 12.5mw = 50mw
50mw - 42mw required = 8mw for everything else. Fittings are a bit tight if you want a rail in the spare hi-slot, but still possible
Two Micro-aux Power cores Fitted
37.25mw + 25mw = 62.5mw
62.5 - 42mw = 20.5mw to use up. Practically swiming in power now. No fitting problems but a shame you had to use two MAPC to get there..
Of course, things are slightly worse if whatever you don't have "whatever skill it is that improves output of the MAPC" to lvl 5, but they are also much improved for those anal (cough) er, I mean dedicated enough to have trained covert-ops skill to lvl 5
|
Vicker Lahn'se
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 22:21:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Vicker Lahn''se on 13/04/2005 22:21:43
Does anyone here know how the metric system works? There's a difference between a capital M and a lower case m. M = Mega = 10^6, m = milli = 10^-3. There's a difference of 9 orders of magnitude there. Powergrid is measured in MegaWatts, not milliWatts.
Sorry, but that's been beginning to bug me... Same applies to 10MN afterburners. It's MN,not mn.
|
Selim
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 22:56:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Guardian Alpha
You are all jumping the gun far too fast on this. The bomber was only released just barley a day ago. Like when people whined about the uselessness of destroyers, and even farther back when they whined about the uselessness of assult ships, they are going to whine about bombers. BUT, give bombers time.
Just like the destroyers, the good players will find the best use for them to be effective. And thus become popular.
Just like the assult ships, the good players will find the best use for them to be effective. And thus become popular.
Give people time to test stradegies, configurations, kit setups, fleet/npc/pvp usage ideas, and then we can forumlate a good opinion. Any whining or complaining right now is just you all doing math and not liking the numbers, versus actually trying and testing the ship with your bare hands. Patience, and good things may come of this ship.
People only doubted the effectiveness of assault frigates because they were slow, but lots of people knew they'd be great against inties and cruisers.
Bombers on the other hand, are obviously totally useless.
|
Turiya Flesharrower
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 23:13:00 -
[81]
The fact that this ship can't fit a covert ops cloak is a moot point, this only nerfs its effectiveness slightly since the ship can enter warp immediately after decloaking due to its speed bonus. As to the people whining about its effectiveness vs interceptors/assault frigates; you need to wake up. Interceptors were made to interceptships like stealth bombers. Stealth bombers are supposed to be afraid of inties and assault frigates since those ships were made to fight other frigates and win.
The stealth bomber is a tactical weapon, someone flying it is not going to use it as an all-singing, all-dancing ganking craft; that's not what it's made for. It's made for guerilla attacks on vulnerable targets. It's extremely mobile and has excellent instantaneous damage. Also, if rumours about stealth modules are true, it will not be locked by anything larger than frigate before it can cloak again. Besides, you can bet that CCP will make adjustments to stealth bombers as time goes by. If they're found to be lacking then they'll get boosted to compensate; look at logistics ships, they've been promised a boost because people just didn't think they were worth using.
I'll be buying a manticore ASAP
|
Trey Azagthoth
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 23:43:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Jack Blank
Edited by: Jack Blank on 13/04/2005 15:33:04
Originally by: Trey Azagthoth
Edited by: Trey Azagthoth on 13/04/2005 15:19:04
guys, as far as I know, Bombers wont use cloaking devices, they will use stealth devices. Check
eve-i.com
how do you know eve-i arnt relying on old data? have you been on the test server or even bothered to look on the stats ingame in eve? I think not, stealth bombers have bonuses to cloak speed and can carry cruise missiles.
Well, seems me trying to be nice didnt work, stop being a little ********, I said AS FAR AS I KNOW. And yes, I have been on the test server and seen the stats etc. **** off.
Vin Diesel claims he has never hailed a taxi. He just runs up to them at stop lights, opens the door, shoves the current passenger over, and tells the cab driver what his new destination is. |
Hyey
|
Posted - 2005.04.13 23:53:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower
and has excellent instantaneous damage.
First off have you ever fired a cruise missile? You wont be getting instantaneous damage AT ALL. Now on the off chance you get within 5km of a battleship, you better pray to the diety of your choice that he doesnt have smartbombs equipped, all my battleships with turrets do.
Its also lame that the manticore gets 3 launcher points. I dont think CCP quite understood how much better that makes it than the other ones but whatever. Caldari do use missiles afterall 
These things remind me of logistics ships honestly. Too damn fragile to use the right way, their role is done better by a much bigger ship. If im going for a fleet and I have 8 pilots that can fly stealth bombers or battleships, theyd be flying battleships because stealth bombers as it stands are junk. Not using a cloak is worthless and a waste of a bonus, using cloak gives you a 30 second lock time against a BS that typically locks a frigate in 10 seconds nowadays.
~~
Hyey
I just payed 15 dollars this month just to be able to respond on the forums... stupid cancellation error.
|
Mortuus
|
Posted - 2005.04.14 01:44:00 -
[84]
Hmmm...cloaking, able to move at speed...with instant damage?
Yea, i already have a good idea what these are good for.
|
BIRDofPREY
|
Posted - 2005.04.14 02:33:00 -
[85]
This game has been around for some time now - what the fekking hell are the GM's thinking about game balance at this late date. You would have thought someone with an IQ greater than the number of teeth in their heads would have gotten a clue by now.
As it stands - they screw around with the player eco-system to the point where it is just single bloody mindedness and has no bearing one balancing anymore.
It is totally assine what they are doing. Nerf this - ubber that. Play with the cpu and PG. Cut the ranges and damage points.
It is gotten to the point of an adolecent prank...
Your 650mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Serpentis Guard, wrecking for 340.0 damage |
kessah
|
Posted - 2005.04.14 03:19:00 -
[86]
i want one but i can see that if all CCP want to do is make ships that are designed only for fleet operations which tbh sorta limits your career choices in eve with certain ships
the calibration lock time and goin faster while cloak kinda contradict each other imo.
what u guna do if your approaching and u decloak within your opt? well if your lucky they will target you and u can fire your FoF's.
And if your running away? you cant cloak while targetted? your not fast enuf when uncloaked?
I feel this was rushed. anything more than a 5seconds lock delay after decloaking is pointless & calling it a steath bomber well might aswell call it a bomber...
Steath bombers in theory (to make it universal as in not another Fleet role operating ship as we dont all like to fly in 30+ players fleets) would be to decloak, lock, fire, recloak, travel away b4 friends get there.
perhaps they could make them just bombers and make steath bombers require alot more skills, making it very specialised, elec upgrade lvl 5 i thought was rather low and i dont want to see everyone flying these ships.
perhaps another skill reducing lock time another 10% per lvl? or even a mod that does it quicker?
Will the auto target mod work reguardless of cloak? i wonder.....
--------------------------------------------------------
Im Your Huckleberry ;-)
|
kessah
|
Posted - 2005.04.14 03:23:00 -
[87]
id also like to add that irl steath bombers dont come escorted with a dozen migs\f18's.
the ships should\must be made for solo op's
You go behind enemy lines past main gank spots do you dmg and go home.
It makes not one bit of sense making these ships a part of a fleet.
--------------------------------------------------------
Im Your Huckleberry ;-)
|
Hyey
|
Posted - 2005.04.14 04:13:00 -
[88]
Originally by: kessah
id also like to add that irl steath bombers dont come escorted with a dozen migs\f18's.
the ships should\must be made for solo op's
You go behind enemy lines past main gank spots do you dmg and go home.
It makes not one bit of sense making these ships a part of a fleet.
Quoted for emphasis (bar of course the f-22 which is a stealth fighter :p. they do fly in groups.)
~~
Hyey
I just payed 15 dollars this month just to be able to respond on the forums... stupid cancellation error.
|
Buster Hymen
|
Posted - 2005.04.25 19:38:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Vicker Lahn'se
Edited by: Vicker Lahn''se on 13/04/2005 22:21:43
Does anyone here know how the metric system works? There's a difference between a capital M and a lower case m. M = Mega = 10^6, m = milli = 10^-3. There's a difference of 9 orders of magnitude there. Powergrid is measured in MegaWatts, not milliWatts.
Sorry, but that's been beginning to bug me... Same applies to 10MN afterburners. It's MN,not mn.
Keep in mind that thrust is measured in Newtons. So it's either Mega Newtons or milli Newtowns or just plain Newtons.
Hell, there might even be FN (Fig Newtons) in the mix somewhere as well.
______________________________________________
Won't you give to the Minmatar Orphans of War Charities? With your generous donation of ore or isk, we can reunite a Minmatar slave with his family. |
Julien Derida
|
Posted - 2005.04.25 21:13:00 -
[90]
I think Stealth Bombers need to have their Cloaked speed bonus removed and replaced with a Cov Ops Cloak CPU bonus. They should have the same cloaking abilities as Cov Ops frigs. Ideally, the balance would be thus:
Covert Ops Frigs
Cloaked Movement at around 300m/s (with usual racial differences of course)
Enough CPU to fit Cloak + Probe Launcher.
Bonus to scanning time.
Stealth Bombers
Cloaked Movement at around 200m/s.
Too little CPU to fit Cloak + Probe Launcher.
Bonus to allow fitting of Cruise Launchers.
Cov Ops would still be far superior for scouting, safe spot finding and as a mobile warp-in point. Stealth Bombers would still suffer from the crappy firepower that two Cruise Launchers provides, and would be too slow to replace Cov Ops as warp-in points. However, with the ability to warp cloaked and fire soon after decloaking they would now be an excellent ship for small strikes deep in enemy space. A group of bombers deep in 0.0 could cause a lot of trouble against enemy mining barges etc.
----------------------------------------
Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Arimas Talasko
|
Posted - 2005.04.25 22:53:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Julien Derida
I think Stealth Bombers need to have their Cloaked speed bonus removed and replaced with a Cov Ops Cloak CPU bonus. They should have the same cloaking abilities as Cov Ops frigs. Ideally, the balance would be thus:
Covert Ops Frigs
Cloaked Movement at around 300m/s (with usual racial differences of course)
Enough CPU to fit Cloak + Probe Launcher.
Bonus to scanning time.
Stealth Bombers
Cloaked Movement at around 200m/s.
Too little CPU to fit Cloak + Probe Launcher.
Bonus to allow fitting of Cruise Launchers.
Cov Ops would still be far superior for scouting, safe spot finding and as a mobile warp-in point. Stealth Bombers would still suffer from the crappy firepower that two Cruise Launchers provides, and would be too slow to replace Cov Ops as warp-in points. However, with the ability to warp cloaked and fire soon after decloaking they would now be an excellent ship for small strikes deep in enemy space. A group of bombers deep in 0.0 could cause a lot of trouble against enemy mining barges etc.
Very good idea, though I think the normal Cov Ops ships should probably have their speed bumped up a tiny notch as well to further differentiate them from their more bellicose cousins. Not that they really need it; it would just make me feel better knowing that the two classes have a bit more distinction between them.
Supremacy Keepin it Real |
Humera
|
Posted - 2005.04.25 23:45:00 -
[92]
Where da heck can I pick up one of these darn Manticore thingamajiggers? In what system are they being made? Gotsta do some testin' att firing missiles'n'stuff, u dig?
Humera
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
|
4 LOM
|
Posted - 2005.04.26 00:15:00 -
[93]
they were being auctioned off 1 bye 1 for a while 1 a day, going for stupid amounts like 150M, but i dont see the auctions up anymore so i figure all the bpo owners have there bpo in a slot running copies or me or pe or whatever. expect to see them price and few and far between for a while yet. and if someone is selling them i want one , send me an eve-mail about price and location lol
|
Humera
|
Posted - 2005.04.26 07:11:00 -
[94]
Hmmm, auction you say. That will garner a wee bit of a look. Bloody BPO holding stingy MF:er. Produce "en masse s'il vous plait".
Humera
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
|
Tas Devil
|
Posted - 2005.04.26 11:05:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Tas Devil on 26/04/2005 11:06:29
they are on markets in empire for less then 100M already ...give it 2-3 weeks and they will be around 60M and then 20M in a month or 2.... just be patient until the novelty factor wears off...
oh and this is purely based on armchair theoretical setups as it needs testing as soon as I get my hands on one of these babies.... BUT I would argue they are not useless at all... actually if one thinks about their usage ... what they can do and cannot do linked to the limitation of improved t2 cloaks (such as not being able to warp while cloaked -which is a fact ...all stop whinning about it just adapt ) makes for a rather obvious use of 2 modules rarely used up to now in this game... look at your markets ... and look for mods you have almost never used... 2 of them combined on these babies can make a deadly killer...
and YES it won't be able to kill a BS alone with instant pawnage... that would be just unbalanced.... but it has potential nonetheless...
|
Dloan
|
Posted - 2005.04.26 11:35:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Dloan on 26/04/2005 11:38:28
Personally, I think Cov Ops should be able use a ship scanner while cloaked. Together with the use of scanner probes, that would really help to make the two classes distinct. Cov ops should be about intel gathering while the bombers concentrate on sneak attacks.
|
Meehan
|
Posted - 2005.04.26 11:58:00 -
[97]
They're not useless, they're just not tactically viable for everyone. As for CVA, we've already found one niche for the bomber where it is highly efficient. A niche not filled by any other ship atm.
This is a pointless discussion. If your personal opinion is that they're useless, don't use them. If you feel their drawbacks make those pros you find worth it, use it. Simple enough.
|
Redblade
|
Posted - 2005.04.26 11:58:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Redblade on 26/04/2005 11:59:06
I realy didn't read everything so if im repeating something it's not my intention.
I have a manticore and tryed it for a bit and i must say im realy disapointed in the ship for three reasons.
1. They are allmost usless without the covert ops cloak as it's realy slow and needs to be in a good possition to attack and standing in one place hoping for a target is not going to happen that much, and ofc the cov ops cloak gives a lower recalibration time.
2. Powergrid is a bit to low imo, i had cov ops lvl 3 when i bought it and found my self needing to fit a micro aux just to get the 3 lauchers on but figured it will solve it self with lvl 4.
When i got lvl 4 i could actualy fit all launchers and had a awsome 0.75 grid left to fit 8 slots with so a few more grid would not hurt it.
3. Cap, how on earth can u make a t2 ship that inherets the sad cap the t1 ship have, with a mwd i can warp about 40au in this ship and i consider my self to have deasent nav skills.
Considering the poor cap u have realy no good way of using EW in your fitting as it will eat your cap in one activation or two.
Hopefully this ship will be given some love and find a way in to some role in the game but as it stands now it's only a realy expensive hauler ganker.
Killboard |
Julien Derida
|
Posted - 2005.04.26 14:19:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Meehan
They're not useless, they're just not tactically viable for everyone. As for CVA, we've already found one niche for the bomber where it is highly efficient. A niche not filled by any other ship atm.
Care to enlighten us?l
----------------------------------------
Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Meehan
|
Posted - 2005.04.26 18:27:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Julien Derida
Care to enlighten us?l
I'd rather not, seeing as several of my enemies are in this thread
My point is that if someone need a role filled, they will eventually find a ship to fill that role. If someone can't find a role for the bombers, then I guess they just don't use the tactics where they are useful. No need to try and tell everyone else why they shouldn't use them because of that...
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page] |