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Eira Eldan
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Posted - 2005.04.13 15:05:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Eira Eldan on 13/04/2005 15:11:52
Edited by: Eira Eldan on 13/04/2005 15:08:25
 Quote:
Try another situation:
There is a fleet at gate (some BS, some Cruiser, some Friggs). Another fleet jumps in (they had a spy there who told what they have to expect) and attacks. And then some cloaked Bombers of the waiting fleet uncloak.
And had those been battleships uncloaking isntead of Bombers, the enemy fleet would be at a far bigger disadvantage. Your point?
[Edit: When comparing a Raven to X Bombers, bear in mind that the Raven has this nifty ROF bonus, the ability to fit 5 BCUs and the ability to tank decently. The DPS of a single bomber proabably won't match the DPS of one siege launcher on a Raven. Thus, 8+ is a very, very low estimate.
And most importantly, 8+ pilots with high skill point totals to match a single pilot who could have 4 million SPs and still be effective? What's the point? Frigates have 2 main roles, tackler or escort, bombers do neither very well. I'm going to reserve final judgement until I've seen them in action more, but based on what I've seen of them so far, they aren't very efficient, costwise and pilotwise.]
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H0ot
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Posted - 2005.04.13 15:14:00 -
[62]
Since they can't fit covert ops cloak, useless. And its kinda lame that they fire plain ol' Cruise missiles. Would be nice if they had a payload of actual bombs or explosives that could be attached a Battleship's hull or something.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
Trey Azagthoth
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Posted - 2005.04.13 15:17:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Trey Azagthoth on 13/04/2005 15:19:04
guys, as far as I know, Bombers wont use cloaking devices, they will use stealth devices. Check
eve-i.com
EDIT: Stealth Systems
Vin Diesel claims he has never hailed a taxi. He just runs up to them at stop lights, opens the door, shoves the current passenger over, and tells the cab driver what his new destination is. |
Jack Blank
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Posted - 2005.04.13 15:31:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Jack Blank on 13/04/2005 15:33:04
Originally by: Trey Azagthoth
Edited by: Trey Azagthoth on 13/04/2005 15:19:04
guys, as far as I know, Bombers wont use cloaking devices, they will use stealth devices. Check
eve-i.com
how do you know eve-i arnt relying on old data? have you been on the test server or even bothered to look on the stats ingame in eve? I think not, stealth bombers have bonuses to cloak speed and can carry cruise missiles.
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Zachios Primos
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Posted - 2005.04.13 15:40:00 -
[65]
maybe now since there are "frigs" that can fire cruise we can break out those old kessies we have fitted with cruise from back in the day and use em without getting banned 
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Clan MacGregor
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Posted - 2005.04.13 18:23:00 -
[66]
Removing the ability to use a covert ops cloak make me wonder why they even included the covert ops skill as a requirement to fly the ship
Me thinks it is a leftover from the Sigi server that never got changed to standard cloaking...
Figures - a good idea shot to ****
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2005.04.13 18:31:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Clan MacGregor
Removing the ability to use a covert ops cloak make me wonder why they even included the covert ops skill as a requirement to fly the ship
Me thinks it is a leftover from the Sigi server that never got changed to standard cloaking...
Figures - a good idea shot to ****
Cause it's a covert ops line ship?
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Guardian Alpha
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Posted - 2005.04.13 18:40:00 -
[68]
You are all jumping the gun far too fast on this. The bomber was only released just barley a day ago. Like when people whined about the uselessness of destroyers, and even farther back when they whined about the uselessness of assult ships, they are going to whine about bombers. BUT, give bombers time.
Just like the destroyers, the good players will find the best use for them to be effective. And thus become popular.
Just like the assult ships, the good players will find the best use for them to be effective. And thus become popular.
Give people time to test stradegies, configurations, kit setups, fleet/npc/pvp usage ideas, and then we can forumlate a good opinion. Any whining or complaining right now is just you all doing math and not liking the numbers, versus actually trying and testing the ship with your bare hands. Patience, and good things may come of this ship.
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BIRDofPREY
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Posted - 2005.04.13 19:05:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Gariuys
Originally by: Clan MacGregor
Removing the ability to use a covert ops cloak make me wonder why they even included the covert ops skill as a requirement to fly the ship
Me thinks it is a leftover from the Sigi server that never got changed to standard cloaking...
Figures - a good idea shot to ****
Cause it's a covert ops line ship?
Then it should use covert ops equipment - by simple definition.
While there have been a number of improvements in the lag and frame rate - changes to game play are nonsensical.
I am beginning to see this one more as a regressive patch than a step ahead.
Your 650mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Serpentis Guard, wrecking for 340.0 damage |
Roba
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Posted - 2005.04.13 19:11:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Sternburg Export
mmmmkay.. the Manticore [Caldari] is able to mount 3 Cruise Missile Launchers (they almost take no PG if you have also Covert ops skill at 5)
Ummmmmm wrong... the bonus is from the frigate skill which is at lvl 5 to fly the ship. Even with it at lvl 5 3 cruise launchers take 52.5 pwrgrid total. The Manticore has 30 grid base, 37.5 with lvl 5 enginering.
Do we see the problem? To fit the launchers one needs to fill all the low slots with aux pwr cores.
So... you have just enough pwr to fit 3 arb cruise and 1 improved cloak, nothing else.
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Harry Voyager
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Posted - 2005.04.13 19:34:00 -
[71]
Logistics Cruisers
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Shirei
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Posted - 2005.04.13 19:43:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Shirei on 13/04/2005 19:43:06
I don't think they are meant to sneak up on people with their cloak on.
A more practical use against larger ships might be.. Jump in/warp in, lock, fire cruises and then cloak to get away before the target has locked you. They should be able to lock a cruiser/BS faster than it can lock them back, so it should be fairly safe that way unless the target has a lot of sensor boosters.
Don't know if it's worth using them for that though considering 2-3 cruise launchers don't give exactly stellar damage.
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.04.13 20:00:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Shirei
A more practical use against larger ships might be.. Jump in/warp in, lock, fire cruises and then cloak to get away before the target has locked you. They should be able to lock a cruiser/BS faster than it can lock them back, so it should be fairly safe that way unless the target has a lot of sensor boosters.
Lots of sensor boosters like 1/3 of commonly seen ship fittings? Which will probably be more like 3/4 with ECM changes meaning a fast lock time is better then a tank.
These ships could work if they had a bonus that negated the scan res nerf of non-covert cloak. As it stands their only cloaking bonus makes them go faster then cloaked (by a tiny amount once the -75% speed nerf of Impros is counted). So the whole reason you would use one cloaked is so you can cloak and run out to 300km to warp off. Actually laying in wait at a gate can be done just as well by any other ship with an Impro cloak.
To sum up these ships make no sense with cruise missiles, if they fired short range bombs then the speed bonus would actually be useful.
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BIRDofPREY
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Posted - 2005.04.13 20:40:00 -
[74]
Originally by: theRaptor
Originally by: Shirei
A more practical use against larger ships might be.. Jump in/warp in, lock, fire cruises and then cloak to get away before the target has locked you. They should be able to lock a cruiser/BS faster than it can lock them back, so it should be fairly safe that way unless the target has a lot of sensor boosters.
Lots of sensor boosters like 1/3 of commonly seen ship fittings? Which will probably be more like 3/4 with ECM changes meaning a fast lock time is better then a tank.
These ships could work if they had a bonus that negated the scan res nerf of non-covert cloak. As it stands their only cloaking bonus makes them go faster then cloaked (by a tiny amount once the -75% speed nerf of Impros is counted). So the whole reason you would use one cloaked is so you can cloak and run out to 300km to warp off. Actually laying in wait at a gate can be done just as well by any other ship with an Impro cloak.
To sum up these ships make no sense with cruise missiles, if they fired short range bombs then the speed bonus would actually be useful.
With the ship only using an improved cloak - it make no sense to use a fragile ship (as well as an expensive one) in combat, when a larger, more powerful ship can do pretty much the same.
The only saving grace is the speed while cloaked. And that ain't much...
Your 650mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Serpentis Guard, wrecking for 340.0 damage |
Buster Hymen
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Posted - 2005.04.13 20:47:00 -
[75]
Or fired torpedoes and gave a 10% bonus per level to their speed & damage. It'd be a tad unsettling to think you're safe in a big ship only to see 3 bombers uncloak 20 km from you and unload a volley of 9 torpedoes.
Odds are the BS pilot is going to be a bit more concerned about saving his 100M isk BS than to calculate wether they can surrvive the 450+225 x 9 = 6075 damage per volley.
However, the above is just fantasy. I think the real value of these ships is going to be as rear echelon raiders to blow up mining barges and haulers of other corps yours happens to be at war with.
______________________________________________
Won't you give to the Minmatar Orphans of War Charities? With your generous donation of ore or isk, we can reunite a Minmatar slave with his family. |
Grut
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Posted - 2005.04.13 20:55:00 -
[76]
imo you can get some pretty reasonable anti frig setups on them, though afs & cruisers would be a problem. ofc this is before the missile changes. The dot is just to low to be effective against anything bigger, your average inty has higher and even if it has to get close for that damage is just as surviveable from its lower siggy and higher speed.
so in short
bombers = anti frig
cloak other then covert = useless
Mostly harmless |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2005.04.13 21:07:00 -
[77]
Originally by: BIRDofPREY
Originally by: theRaptor
Originally by: Shirei
A more practical use against larger ships might be.. Jump in/warp in, lock, fire cruises and then cloak to get away before the target has locked you. They should be able to lock a cruiser/BS faster than it can lock them back, so it should be fairly safe that way unless the target has a lot of sensor boosters.
Lots of sensor boosters like 1/3 of commonly seen ship fittings? Which will probably be more like 3/4 with ECM changes meaning a fast lock time is better then a tank.
These ships could work if they had a bonus that negated the scan res nerf of non-covert cloak. As it stands their only cloaking bonus makes them go faster then cloaked (by a tiny amount once the -75% speed nerf of Impros is counted). So the whole reason you would use one cloaked is so you can cloak and run out to 300km to warp off. Actually laying in wait at a gate can be done just as well by any other ship with an Impro cloak.
To sum up these ships make no sense with cruise missiles, if they fired short range bombs then the speed bonus would actually be useful.
With the ship only using an improved cloak - it make no sense to use a fragile ship (as well as an expensive one) in combat, when a larger, more powerful ship can do pretty much the same.
The only saving grace is the speed while cloaked. And that ain't much...
Then why use a HAC, or a assault frigate? or... there's a part of this game that is called having fun. Doesn't mean a ship should be useless, and these aren't. But also means that not every ship has to be bristling with clear cut strategies, just so there are no threads filled with OMG this ship is useless.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Arte
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Posted - 2005.04.13 21:54:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Roba
Ummmmmm wrong... the bonus is from the frigate skill which is at lvl 5 to fly the ship. Even with it at lvl 5 3 cruise launchers take 52.5 pwrgrid total. The Manticore has 30 grid base, 37.5 with lvl 5 enginering.
Do we see the problem? To fit the launchers one needs to fill all the low slots with aux pwr cores.
So... you have just enough pwr to fit 3 arb cruise and 1 improved cloak, nothing else.
You're wrong. The manticore also has a cruise missile launcher "grid use bonus" based on the "covert ops skill" which is 5% per level. This will reduce the total grid requirements for the manticore with 3 launchers to 40mw (rounded up) if you have covert ops at lvl 5, or more realistically speaking, 42mw for the majority who will have covert ops skill at lvl 4.
With my skills MAPC give 12.5mw grid instead of 10mw. (think that is engineering 5. anyone confirm or rectify that?).
One Micro-aux Power core Fitted
37.5mw + 12.5mw = 50mw
50mw - 42mw required = 8mw for everything else. Fittings are a bit tight if you want a rail in the spare hi-slot, but still possible
Two Micro-aux Power cores Fitted
37.25mw + 25mw = 62.5mw
62.5 - 42mw = 20.5mw to use up. Practically swiming in power now. No fitting problems but a shame you had to use two MAPC to get there..
Of course, things are slightly worse if whatever you don't have "whatever skill it is that improves output of the MAPC" to lvl 5, but they are also much improved for those anal (cough) er, I mean dedicated enough to have trained covert-ops skill to lvl 5
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Vicker Lahn'se
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Posted - 2005.04.13 22:21:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Vicker Lahn''se on 13/04/2005 22:21:43
Does anyone here know how the metric system works? There's a difference between a capital M and a lower case m. M = Mega = 10^6, m = milli = 10^-3. There's a difference of 9 orders of magnitude there. Powergrid is measured in MegaWatts, not milliWatts.
Sorry, but that's been beginning to bug me... Same applies to 10MN afterburners. It's MN,not mn.
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.04.13 22:56:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Guardian Alpha
You are all jumping the gun far too fast on this. The bomber was only released just barley a day ago. Like when people whined about the uselessness of destroyers, and even farther back when they whined about the uselessness of assult ships, they are going to whine about bombers. BUT, give bombers time.
Just like the destroyers, the good players will find the best use for them to be effective. And thus become popular.
Just like the assult ships, the good players will find the best use for them to be effective. And thus become popular.
Give people time to test stradegies, configurations, kit setups, fleet/npc/pvp usage ideas, and then we can forumlate a good opinion. Any whining or complaining right now is just you all doing math and not liking the numbers, versus actually trying and testing the ship with your bare hands. Patience, and good things may come of this ship.
People only doubted the effectiveness of assault frigates because they were slow, but lots of people knew they'd be great against inties and cruisers.
Bombers on the other hand, are obviously totally useless.
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Turiya Flesharrower
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Posted - 2005.04.13 23:13:00 -
[81]
The fact that this ship can't fit a covert ops cloak is a moot point, this only nerfs its effectiveness slightly since the ship can enter warp immediately after decloaking due to its speed bonus. As to the people whining about its effectiveness vs interceptors/assault frigates; you need to wake up. Interceptors were made to interceptships like stealth bombers. Stealth bombers are supposed to be afraid of inties and assault frigates since those ships were made to fight other frigates and win.
The stealth bomber is a tactical weapon, someone flying it is not going to use it as an all-singing, all-dancing ganking craft; that's not what it's made for. It's made for guerilla attacks on vulnerable targets. It's extremely mobile and has excellent instantaneous damage. Also, if rumours about stealth modules are true, it will not be locked by anything larger than frigate before it can cloak again. Besides, you can bet that CCP will make adjustments to stealth bombers as time goes by. If they're found to be lacking then they'll get boosted to compensate; look at logistics ships, they've been promised a boost because people just didn't think they were worth using.
I'll be buying a manticore ASAP
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Trey Azagthoth
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Posted - 2005.04.13 23:43:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Jack Blank
Edited by: Jack Blank on 13/04/2005 15:33:04
Originally by: Trey Azagthoth
Edited by: Trey Azagthoth on 13/04/2005 15:19:04
guys, as far as I know, Bombers wont use cloaking devices, they will use stealth devices. Check
eve-i.com
how do you know eve-i arnt relying on old data? have you been on the test server or even bothered to look on the stats ingame in eve? I think not, stealth bombers have bonuses to cloak speed and can carry cruise missiles.
Well, seems me trying to be nice didnt work, stop being a little ********, I said AS FAR AS I KNOW. And yes, I have been on the test server and seen the stats etc. **** off.
Vin Diesel claims he has never hailed a taxi. He just runs up to them at stop lights, opens the door, shoves the current passenger over, and tells the cab driver what his new destination is. |
Hyey
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Posted - 2005.04.13 23:53:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower
and has excellent instantaneous damage.
First off have you ever fired a cruise missile? You wont be getting instantaneous damage AT ALL. Now on the off chance you get within 5km of a battleship, you better pray to the diety of your choice that he doesnt have smartbombs equipped, all my battleships with turrets do.
Its also lame that the manticore gets 3 launcher points. I dont think CCP quite understood how much better that makes it than the other ones but whatever. Caldari do use missiles afterall 
These things remind me of logistics ships honestly. Too damn fragile to use the right way, their role is done better by a much bigger ship. If im going for a fleet and I have 8 pilots that can fly stealth bombers or battleships, theyd be flying battleships because stealth bombers as it stands are junk. Not using a cloak is worthless and a waste of a bonus, using cloak gives you a 30 second lock time against a BS that typically locks a frigate in 10 seconds nowadays.
~~
Hyey
I just payed 15 dollars this month just to be able to respond on the forums... stupid cancellation error.
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Mortuus
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Posted - 2005.04.14 01:44:00 -
[84]
Hmmm...cloaking, able to move at speed...with instant damage?
Yea, i already have a good idea what these are good for.
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BIRDofPREY
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Posted - 2005.04.14 02:33:00 -
[85]
This game has been around for some time now - what the fekking hell are the GM's thinking about game balance at this late date. You would have thought someone with an IQ greater than the number of teeth in their heads would have gotten a clue by now.
As it stands - they screw around with the player eco-system to the point where it is just single bloody mindedness and has no bearing one balancing anymore.
It is totally assine what they are doing. Nerf this - ubber that. Play with the cpu and PG. Cut the ranges and damage points.
It is gotten to the point of an adolecent prank...
Your 650mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Serpentis Guard, wrecking for 340.0 damage |
kessah
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Posted - 2005.04.14 03:19:00 -
[86]
i want one but i can see that if all CCP want to do is make ships that are designed only for fleet operations which tbh sorta limits your career choices in eve with certain ships
the calibration lock time and goin faster while cloak kinda contradict each other imo.
what u guna do if your approaching and u decloak within your opt? well if your lucky they will target you and u can fire your FoF's.
And if your running away? you cant cloak while targetted? your not fast enuf when uncloaked?
I feel this was rushed. anything more than a 5seconds lock delay after decloaking is pointless & calling it a steath bomber well might aswell call it a bomber...
Steath bombers in theory (to make it universal as in not another Fleet role operating ship as we dont all like to fly in 30+ players fleets) would be to decloak, lock, fire, recloak, travel away b4 friends get there.
perhaps they could make them just bombers and make steath bombers require alot more skills, making it very specialised, elec upgrade lvl 5 i thought was rather low and i dont want to see everyone flying these ships.
perhaps another skill reducing lock time another 10% per lvl? or even a mod that does it quicker?
Will the auto target mod work reguardless of cloak? i wonder.....
--------------------------------------------------------
Im Your Huckleberry ;-)
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kessah
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Posted - 2005.04.14 03:23:00 -
[87]
id also like to add that irl steath bombers dont come escorted with a dozen migs\f18's.
the ships should\must be made for solo op's
You go behind enemy lines past main gank spots do you dmg and go home.
It makes not one bit of sense making these ships a part of a fleet.
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Im Your Huckleberry ;-)
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Hyey
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Posted - 2005.04.14 04:13:00 -
[88]
Originally by: kessah
id also like to add that irl steath bombers dont come escorted with a dozen migs\f18's.
the ships should\must be made for solo op's
You go behind enemy lines past main gank spots do you dmg and go home.
It makes not one bit of sense making these ships a part of a fleet.
Quoted for emphasis (bar of course the f-22 which is a stealth fighter :p. they do fly in groups.)
~~
Hyey
I just payed 15 dollars this month just to be able to respond on the forums... stupid cancellation error.
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Buster Hymen
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Posted - 2005.04.25 19:38:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Vicker Lahn'se
Edited by: Vicker Lahn''se on 13/04/2005 22:21:43
Does anyone here know how the metric system works? There's a difference between a capital M and a lower case m. M = Mega = 10^6, m = milli = 10^-3. There's a difference of 9 orders of magnitude there. Powergrid is measured in MegaWatts, not milliWatts.
Sorry, but that's been beginning to bug me... Same applies to 10MN afterburners. It's MN,not mn.
Keep in mind that thrust is measured in Newtons. So it's either Mega Newtons or milli Newtowns or just plain Newtons.
Hell, there might even be FN (Fig Newtons) in the mix somewhere as well.
______________________________________________
Won't you give to the Minmatar Orphans of War Charities? With your generous donation of ore or isk, we can reunite a Minmatar slave with his family. |
Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.04.25 21:13:00 -
[90]
I think Stealth Bombers need to have their Cloaked speed bonus removed and replaced with a Cov Ops Cloak CPU bonus. They should have the same cloaking abilities as Cov Ops frigs. Ideally, the balance would be thus:
Covert Ops Frigs
Cloaked Movement at around 300m/s (with usual racial differences of course)
Enough CPU to fit Cloak + Probe Launcher.
Bonus to scanning time.
Stealth Bombers
Cloaked Movement at around 200m/s.
Too little CPU to fit Cloak + Probe Launcher.
Bonus to allow fitting of Cruise Launchers.
Cov Ops would still be far superior for scouting, safe spot finding and as a mobile warp-in point. Stealth Bombers would still suffer from the crappy firepower that two Cruise Launchers provides, and would be too slow to replace Cov Ops as warp-in points. However, with the ability to warp cloaked and fire soon after decloaking they would now be an excellent ship for small strikes deep in enemy space. A group of bombers deep in 0.0 could cause a lot of trouble against enemy mining barges etc.
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Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
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