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TaaS	Posted - 2005.04.13 20:43:00 - [1] Edited by: TaaS on 13/04/2005 23:31:02 Edited by: TaaS on 13/04/2005 22:42:13 Edited by: TaaS on 13/04/2005 20:45:45 After reading about the billionth alt scammer this month I've decided that enough is enough. It HAS to be an exploit to scam people out of there money on an alt then go running back to your main with the money with ABSOLUTELY no repercussions or even a CHANCE of repercussions. It's rediculous, there is nothing stopping these people. Some may argue that "well you should be smart enough to recognize a scammer." But people aren't, believe it or not, people in EVE are generous, niave, children, trusting, friendly. These are all great traits but also great traits that scammers can exploit for their own personal gain. Then after they gain what they need they log off, and the char is dead with 10 hours. This leaves the scammed person and his corp completely helpless to do ANYTHING at all unless the person has slipped by releasing one of his main chars or other alts. Publicizing alts or making this an exploit is the only way to fix this and I feel it must be done. If you agree with me please sign it, if you don't, get stuffed cause you are probably a scammer. This does not have to apply to forums at all since posting with privacy should be allowed in all ways, shapes, and forms, as I am doing right now. Please DO NOT hijack this thread and make it about me or about forum alt posting because it is not about that, this is about alt abuse and scamming which is getting rediculously out of hand. And if you were wondering I wasn't scammed. I havn't been scammed for about 6-7 months and scamming me doesn't really bother me to much do to the fact that it is my mistake. But when you scam my corp m8's I get **ed off. And when I can't do anything but * in corp chat I get ed off enough that I want to revert back to my pirate roots and just start blasting people... Sign it if you like it. EDIT: regaurding the reply below this post...thanky you...i needed that... EDIT #2: This is not about escrow scams, or market scams which don't seem to revolve AS MUCH around alt abuse even though it is part of it... I'm more worried about a guy coming into my corp and making "pretend friends" with my corp m8's just to take money then dissapear. EDIT #3 (IMPORTANT READ THIS BEFORE POSTING!!!!): this post is not about scamming. I understand fully that scamming is a game mechanic and you know what I'm all for it. Scam my brains out I don't care. For the sake of this topic just forget the word scam. This post is about ALT ABUSE. People need to not be able to dissapear and leave scammed people with nothing to do but be upset and ***. I really don't want to see another post about scamming being a game mechanic because that is not at all what this topic is about. It is about people hiding behind alts. So grow a brain and read before posting. PLEASE!
ollobrains	Posted - 2005.04.13 20:45:00 - [2] here is a cookie for you and a nice cold drink while im at it.
MutationZ	Posted - 2005.04.13 20:47:00 - [3] Signed, go play with your data feeds hollowbrains
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2005.04.13 20:53:00 - [4] Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 13/04/2005 20:53:43 well, id loose my scouts, but id also like to have free boards, free amrkets, free escrows.. no spies, no corpthieves.. UTOPIA Edit: Signed, 4tw ofc ;)
IamBen	Posted - 2005.04.13 20:55:00 - [5] /signed
Larno	Posted - 2005.04.13 20:56:00 - [6] Im sure it wouldn't be hard for CCP to 'count' how many hours of training an alt has had, and allow someone to train their main with that many hours of training. Of course it would be annoying for some people, I mean I couldn't have an alt at HQ to access hangars for people, but its a small price to pay for having no scammers, corp thieves, forum alts etc.
Lagartija Nick	Posted - 2005.04.13 20:59:00 - [7] Just reveal the money trail, thats all that really needs to happen. Put the tools in game to hack someones financial records. Once you know where the money is going, you know where to strike.
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.04.13 21:00:00 - [8] Something has to be done about the alts, they are a problem, the kind of problem that degrades and corrodes EVE society. I know there are no perfect solutions, but something is better than nothing.
Zedicuss	Posted - 2005.04.13 21:00:00 - [9] Signed. Can't see the point or the fun in joining a corp with an alt just to scam some ppl. Go do some lvl 4 missions if you need isk and stop ruining the game. What I really think about those ppl I'm not gonna post here as I will probably be banned.
Lobster Man	Posted - 2005.04.13 21:12:00 - [10] Edited by: Lobster Man on 13/04/2005 21:13:16 Edited by: Lobster Man on 13/04/2005 21:12:47 I'm hesitant to "sign" not because I am a scammer but because this kind of crap, no matter how low, is part of life. If someone steals your CC # in RL they don't get banned, they usually get away with it, unfortunately. I think it all boils down to people should be a bit more careful before they "lend" someone 50mil for that BS or click accept that 120mil escrow without even looking at it. And honestly, whats to stop someone from making a new account and scamming with that one? I don't in any way shape or form support scammers, I just think banning them or something like that will do nothing but cause anger. And then if, god forbid, someone be wrongfully banned, it'd all be over. I do like the idea of being able to see what other char's an alt has tied to it given then right resources. I don't however think that banning a corp thief or someone who tricked someone out of some money is a good idea. There's always an easier way.
Larno	Posted - 2005.04.13 21:21:00 - [11] Originally by: Lobster Man Edited by: Lobster Man on 13/04/2005 21:13:16 Edited by: Lobster Man on 13/04/2005 21:12:47 I'm hesitant to "sign" not because I am a scammer but because this kind of crap, no matter how low, is part of life. If someone steals your CC # in RL they don't get banned, they usually get away with it, unfortunately. I think it all boils down to people should be a bit more careful before they "lend" someone 50mil for that BS or click accept that 120mil escrow without even looking at it. And honestly, whats to stop someone from making a new account and scamming with that one? I don't in any way shape or form support scammers, I just think banning them or something like that will do nothing but cause anger. And then if, god forbid, someone be wrongfully banned, it'd all be over. I do like the idea of being able to see what other char's an alt has tied to it given then right resources. I don't however think that banning a corp thief or someone who tricked someone out of some money is a good idea. If they ban like 1 person the rest will stop out of fear of getting banned.
Allen Deckard	Posted - 2005.04.13 21:58:00 - [12] my corp is 100% real life friends so it doesn't really apply to me. BUT I do however like to help new players out from time to time with isk. But seeing how 90% of new characters are NOT new players I have quit helping. Not for fear of getting scamed (I don't give and expect anything in return) but because I really don't care to feed scammers.
Salusa VC	Posted - 2005.04.13 22:10:00 - [13] Edited by: Salusa VC on 13/04/2005 22:12:03 Originally by: Allen Deckard my corp is 100% real life friends so it doesn't really apply to me. BUT I do however like to help new players out from time to time with isk. But seeing how 90% of new characters are NOT new players I have quit helping. Not for fear of getting scamed (I don't give and expect anything in return) but because I really don't care to feed scammers. I know what you mean in someways. When I first started I was very generously helped out by some real characters. This was completely out of the blue, and really went a long way to make me "stick to the game". I subsequently followed the example, and also donated ISK to new players as and when I could afford it. However, I gave up after a few PM's along the lines of "ROFL Noob!!, This is not my main, char, thanks for the donation".. etc.. etc.. I do still donate, but not as randomly as before. Dissapointing, because its the "real" new guys who are losing out.
Galeo	Posted - 2005.04.13 22:13:00 - [14] Signed, F scammers.
Tairos Hakonnus	Posted - 2005.04.13 22:13:00 - [15] Edited by: Tairos Hakonnus on 13/04/2005 22:13:29 Please leave my game. thx. (A way to track money would be interesting though) ---------------------------- http://spla.sh/bp/bp_files/main.htm
Archa	Posted - 2005.04.13 22:16:00 - [16] aren't 90% of the scams escrow scams? so, stop using escrow and use the market. i'm sure making alts public isn't the answer.
Raem Civrie	Posted - 2005.04.13 22:38:00 - [17] Most scams are, indeed, escrow scams. Corp thievery isn't as common as people think, it just always gets some attention.
anter	Posted - 2005.04.13 22:48:00 - [18] Spies and corpthieves are part of the game. There is plenty of ways to minimalize the risk of getting spy or corpthief. I am not neither right now, but wount mind using alt to gather some intel from other corps when I need to.
Masi	Posted - 2005.04.13 22:51:00 - [19] my to alts are called STUFF and YOU -------------------------
Corvus Dove	Posted - 2005.04.13 22:53:00 - [20] Make alts public, but it won't change a damn thing. Zeepo ain't an alt, and he'll scam the arsehammering bejeesus out of you. "You Griefer!!!" = "You Doodyhead!!!"
Thomas Torquemada	Posted - 2005.04.13 22:53:00 - [21] People are not scammed, they ALLOW themselves to be scammed, dont act as if it is some kind of explotable cheat. Some people are dumb and get themselves scammed, their own fault, no-one elses. UPC - PVP'ers Good and Bad, How Do You Want Peace? Through Talk Or In A Casket? We Decide! Peace My Brothers...
TaaS	Posted - 2005.04.13 22:57:00 - [22] Edited by: TaaS on 13/04/2005 22:58:29 AS I SAID BEFORE. I know people allow themselves to be scammed. AND AGAIN I SAY regaurding the ***** fact you present that its part of the game. YES I *** KNOW IT'S PART OF THE GAME. I have NO problem with scamming. What I have a problem with is people deleting the alt they used to scam and me not being able to a god damned *** thing. That my friend is not a game machinic, because there is no retaliation at all available, and it involves things outside of gameplay. Maybe you should read my entire ***** post before you put in your two cents moron...
anter	Posted - 2005.04.13 23:05:00 - [23] Originally by: TaaS Edited by: TaaS on 13/04/2005 22:58:29 AS I SAID BEFORE. I know people allow themselves to be scammed. AND AGAIN I SAY regaurding the ***** fact you present that its part of the game. YES I *** KNOW IT'S PART OF THE GAME. I have NO problem with scamming. What I have a problem with is people deleting the alt they used to scam and me not being able to a god damned *** thing. That my friend is not a game machinic, because there is no retaliation at all available, and it involves things outside of gameplay. Maybe you should read my entire ***** post before you put in your two cents moron... lol are you trying to get your own thread locked?
Ris Dnalor	Posted - 2005.04.13 23:15:00 - [24] I roleplay this game. i do not scam. I have been scammed, but not often & always it could've been avoided. Do not tell me that my roleplay characters that interact with other players in very different ways must be linked to each other, simply b/c you got suckered. sorry, learn from it. don't get suckered again. I keep my 9m isk shuttle as a constant reminder not to be sloppy. Eve is dangerous. it's unfortunate that people profit from others lack-of-sleep, or being too trusting, or simply being lazy & clicking without thinking, however that's how it is. Eve is a dangerous world in more ways than one, & you CAN be wtfpwned while docked purchasing something. tralala -- Jump Drive Operation / Rank 5 / SP: 1280000 of 1280000
Daudur Munkur	Posted - 2005.04.13 23:20:00 - [25] Signed.
Daudur Munkur	Posted - 2005.04.13 23:27:00 - [26] Originally by: Thomas Torquemada People are not scammed, they ALLOW themselves to be scammed, dont act as if it is some kind of explotable cheat. Some people are dumb and get themselves scammed, their own fault, no-one elses. But a little change to the game features would allow ppl to TRY to trust somone. But just do what i do, dont hand anything to anyone unless you know him IRL or dont care if you lose it.
Scoobee	Posted - 2005.04.13 23:41:00 - [27] Signed, alt abuse is teh suck, little girly men scam with alts... ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< Yeah well you are about to not have a mouth, I mean it, I'll rip it off!
Iluvy	Posted - 2005.04.14 00:19:00 - [28] Originally by: Lagartija Nick Just reveal the money trail, thats all that really needs to happen. Put the tools in game to hack someones financial records. Once you know where the money is going, you know where to strike. Definately the best answer to the problem so far proposed. Interesting, adds something to the game, allows people to make money through tracking people down, etc. etc.. The possibilities are endless. Bleh... xD
Elenia Kheynes	Posted - 2005.04.14 00:37:00 - [29] scamming should not be bannable, but people should have to fear repercussions ingame: -people should not be able to hide behind alts -it should be possible imo to create assassination contracts against those people in empire space (since some would just hide in npc corps to avoid any repercution). Otherwise, scam is imo part of the game. It should just as any criminal activity include risks, and I just don't see any at this time. Dear friendly customer... Can I have your money ?
Araviel	Posted - 2005.04.14 00:49:00 - [30] alts are maybe the only thing i dont like about EVE, but i think its hard to take them away ow when they are here, i just wish that they wouldnt had been introduced EPIC Recruitment post
anter	Posted - 2005.04.14 01:14:00 - [31] Originally by: Iluvy Originally by: Lagartija Nick Just reveal the money trail, thats all that really needs to happen. Put the tools in game to hack someones financial records. Once you know where the money is going, you know where to strike. Definately the best answer to the problem so far proposed. Interesting, adds something to the game, allows people to make money through tracking people down, etc. etc.. The possibilities are endless. Whoah what a great idea ... not. If you stop thinking about it for moment then you should reliaze that anyone could make anyone seem like scammer. How? Make alt and trasfer some isk to your 'target' and now grief/scam/whatever with your alt and once players start 'tracking' him down they will be led to the 'target'. Such system would lead so much grief that its would be quite funny to see when everyone are attacking each others while the real scammers would still work behind scene (buy minerals and jettison and then pick it up with main and sell for isk).
Gift	Posted - 2005.04.14 01:25:00 - [32] Please CCP, save me from myself this thread sux
Thane Aedilis	Posted - 2005.04.14 02:49:00 - [33] Edited by: Thane Aedilis on 14/04/2005 02:49:48 Quick summary of thread: "Waaaaaaaaah." Not signed. I like laughing at gullible people. Also, it's spelled "ridiculous," not "rediculous."
Dark Big	Posted - 2005.04.14 02:55:00 - [34] WTB MOON ON A STICK DELIVERED K THANX
Qutsemnie	Posted - 2005.04.14 03:19:00 - [35] Edited by: Qutsemnie on 14/04/2005 03:30:24 It occurs to me that kant would say you were immoral when you pretend to be someones friend to get their stuff. If you keep it in game terms then your roleplaying immoral. The moment you start talking about football and talking like your someones RL buddy your RL immoral. Whether or not it happens everyday is irrelevant. The reason according to kant would be three things. #1) In game socializing about real life things is valuable. If you cant tell who is allowed to pretend to be your RL buddy and who isnt then there is no value in real life socializing in game. Its Kants false promise example. (Your moral system cant allow false promises because then there is no value in promises) #2) You cant use people in a way they cant rationally consent too. If you deny someone relavent information then they cant rationally consent. In this case as long as you keep it in game terms then you have walked the fine line of gaming. But the moment you get on a forum or something and start acting like your interested in my RL problems your treating me as a means to an end and your RL immoral. #3) Your maxim in acting cant be used uniformly for everyone to behave. "You cant chat about someones life to gain their confidence to beat them at a game except if its eve" doesnt go far... So anyway. I think the counter argument is everyone consents to being scammed as soon as they agree to play. The scamming includes talking about real life stuff to gain their confidence. But the counter to that is... no ... This only applies to those people that use any means neccesary to gain someones confidence be it instant messenging, corps chats about nothing in particular, or BSn about life in teamspeak. Those people arnt roleplaying. They are truely off the deep end of immorality i think =). Those people that are careful to never really try to gain confidence via out of game chat topics and stay in game character while scamming. Ok your fine. Thats my opinion. Though like most immoral people... they usually dont care what you think =) One thing thats relevant though is that no matter where you stand on that argument you have to agree with this: EVERYONE THAT SCAMS IS ROLEPLAYING IN GAME IMMORALITY. The person that started this thread is saying there is NOT sufficient roleplaying consequences to roleplaying scamming. Since for most people taking stuff from one toon removes stuff from all alts via taking from the hand that feeds the consequences of scamming are spread out over all the alts. Its fair then that the consequences for the scammer should be spread out over all the scammers alts. How can you argue with that?
Qutsemnie	Posted - 2005.04.14 03:27:00 - [36] What im saying is that when you take something from me you take something from all my toons. Most of us are like that. Our mains feed all our alts or vice versa. You can claim thats irrelevant as a scammer but punishments for consequences follows the path of the bullet. You scammed from someone that feeds all their alts you took from the entire account. Therefore a punishment in kind of having all toons on a scammers account be accountable is appropriate.
Virgil Aquilis	Posted - 2005.04.14 03:53:00 - [37] At the risk of sounding like an uneducated layman, you are putting entirely too much thought into this.
Lygos	Posted - 2005.04.14 04:07:00 - [38] Edited by: Lygos on 14/04/2005 04:09:56 Scamming will actually become a more professional uh.. profession. It will become a more acceptable lifestyle that becomes less well published as it no longer arouses community ire. People won't mind any kind of scamming because those scammed can now do something, albeit not much, against the professional scammer. Logically, the sensible scammers will simply do it with more style, or more subterfuge if they wish to avoid become really well known. Alts are used by way too many people who aren't deliberate scammers but who wish to skirt the consequences of their actions.
Zytrel	Posted - 2005.04.14 04:48:00 - [39] Simple thing: 1) Make all players choose the char they'd like to use as main char. 2) Add an "Alt"-Tag to the Portrait of all alts, just like the wanted tag. 3) Charge Ç10 for changing main chars. Problem solved. ;) ... and, Signed. regards, zytrel.
Sergeant Spot	Posted - 2005.04.14 06:30:00 - [40] While this would not end the problem of scams and such, it would screw with many scammers. I've always believed scammers have intentionally and personally wronged me by their mere existance, so... signed. Scammers should be screwed with at all times by all of existance for the crime of existing. I'm serious.
Sergeant Spot	Posted - 2005.04.14 06:33:00 - [41] as for scamming being "roleplay" Fair enough. I can accept that. My role play is that all scammers must be screwed with at all times for the crime of existing.
Ryctor	Posted - 2005.04.14 06:55:00 - [42] SS you seem awfly ****ed off
mahhy	Posted - 2005.04.14 07:51:00 - [43] Meh, I don't want alts to be public. But some way of punishing scammers is needed. Maybe agent services to track money flow and/or other interactions (trade window, escrows, whatever). If making scamming have repercussion requires that alts become public fine go for it, but if theres a way for it to be dealt with, without public alts I'd prefer that. I like my alts, and no I don't use 'em to scam.
ErrorS	Posted - 2005.04.14 07:56:00 - [44] i hate alts like I hate tech2 ships. .i think they make the game stupid but whatever, I'm not running it, CCP is. If I knew of a game even 1/2 as good as this one I wouldn't be here right now. ________ I'm strict Caldari "The grass is always greener on the other side" - Maybe they're not as uber as you think? -ErrorS
Fuse	Posted - 2005.04.14 08:28:00 - [45] Originally by: ErrorS i hate alts like I hate tech2 ships. .i think they make the game stupid but whatever, I'm not running it, CCP is. If I knew of a game even 1/2 as good as this one I wouldn't be here right now. Agreed totally, Star Trek online is going to be another piece of garbage nothing can compare to eve and yet they have soured the game for allot of us. 0.o It's not you... no wait it is you.
Colthor	Posted - 2005.04.14 08:31:00 - [46] /agrees with Qutsemnie, Lygos and Mahhy Alts are useful. Banning them won't help (are you going to ban all second accounts?). A way of tracing the money would help, methinks, without affecting roleplayers, hauler alts, sit-in-Yulai-to-watch-Market alts, people who think their shuttle's worth 10mil isk, etc. It would also help the super-paranoid (bows) trust people enough to happily let new members into their corp without being convinced they're all out to rob you blind. Where there's brass there's muck? -- OTO are selling Impel and Bustard transport ships. Contact Tsavong Lah or Lacero Callrisian for details. Like mining, hauling or building? Join OTO!
SinBin	Posted - 2005.04.14 09:32:00 - [47] Originally by: Lagartija Nick Just reveal the money trail, thats all that really needs to happen. Put the tools in game to hack someones financial records. Once you know where the money is going, you know where to strike. This is a very good idea & ccp would only be adding to the game & there gm alts can keep scamming, you could have agent bring up say a mouths of a atls transactions & also this would be good for corps who have thiefs. _______________________________________ Ill Shutup when CCP remove bookmarks Maybe end the election round will do it ? & could save hundred of Users & Mods pain.
herr Jortikka	Posted - 2005.04.14 09:41:00 - [48] signed
Nor'zill	Posted - 2005.04.14 09:43:00 - [49] signed
sokkusu	Posted - 2005.04.14 09:49:00 - [50] Not signed. Alt should stay like they are atm. but i would like an agent who give a list of transaction(money, items) from one player. With that i will be able to find who really profit it.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.04.14 10:01:00 - [51] Originally by: Thomas Torquemada People are not scammed, they ALLOW themselves to be scammed, dont act as if it is some kind of explotable cheat. Some people are dumb and get themselves scammed, their own fault, no-one elses. The problem isn't getting scammed, or letting yourself be scammed. The problem is that most scammers use alts to avoid any consequence of their actions. The principle of eve is that you can do pretty much anything you want, as long as you're prepared to deal with the consequences. Bypassing the consequences breaks the basic principles of eve. Originally by: Ris Dnalor Do not tell me that my roleplay characters that interact with other players in very different ways must be linked to each other, simply b/c you got suckered Well then, how do you feel about the "trace the money" option for exposing alts? If your alts are completely different, unlinked, charachters, they have no reason to be swapping money and kit around, so there would be no trail to follow. If, however, you're using one as a false identity, or as an innocent cash-cow to fund a more nefarious charachter, then there will be a money trail, and that link deserves to be exposed. Originally by: anter Whoah what a great idea ... not. If you stop thinking about it for moment then you should reliaze that anyone could make anyone seem like scammer. How? Make alt and trasfer some isk to your 'target' and now grief/scam/whatever with your alt and once players start 'tracking' him down they will be led to the 'target'. Say you know someone just scammed you for 10 Million isk. You do a finance trace on the scammer. The scammer has done as you suggest and tried to set a false trail. Now, any transfer below 1 mill, you're not even going to pay attention to - it's too small-fry. So the scammer would have to yield a large chunk of their profits in order to fool someone onto a false trail. And there's a very easy way to avoid being false-trailed - any money you get sent that you weren't expecting, send straight back. The return will show in the scammers trace, flagging up what they were trying to do.
KHEN	Posted - 2005.04.14 10:24:00 - [52] /signed I agree scamming can be considered as an exploit. EVE players are a small community, newcomers should be welcomed not robbed from their hard work. Old players are not concerned about scamming due to their experience. It's not so hard to earn isk in EVE that's why I think scammers should consider about leaving the game, they are just not smart enough to play the rules. The stupid one is the scammer, not the scammed. The solution I propose : A message in the escrow that warns you that if the transaction you are setting up would be denounced as a scam by the receiver of the item, the name of your oldest char in the game will be revealed to him to allow him to retaliate. The message should display as a warning only when the amount of isk asked is far from the average price of the item(s) you are escrowing. Thus pirates in example could continue their scamming and would find many people to fight and honorable players wouldn't be affected by this restriction. This is not prohibition this is control. regards
Sanaen Eydanwadh	Posted - 2005.04.14 10:49:00 - [53] signed, for the scammers, the PVP lame "tactics", the griefers... all "wrong" alts. I don't see any problems with the alts becoming "infoable" (so that you can track the relationships and have a chance to identify their "main")...
anter	Posted - 2005.04.14 10:56:00 - [54] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: anter Whoah what a great idea ... not. If you stop thinking about it for moment then you should reliaze that anyone could make anyone seem like scammer. How? Make alt and trasfer some isk to your 'target' and now grief/scam/whatever with your alt and once players start 'tracking' him down they will be led to the 'target'. Say you know someone just scammed you for 10 Million isk. You do a finance trace on the scammer. The scammer has done as you suggest and tried to set a false trail. Now, any transfer below 1 mill, you're not even going to pay attention to - it's too small-fry. So the scammer would have to yield a large chunk of their profits in order to fool someone onto a false trail. And there's a very easy way to avoid being false-trailed - any money you get sent that you weren't expecting, send straight back. The return will show in the scammers trace, flagging up what they were trying to do. Most wouldnt just send back the isk. It wouldnt be hard to fake like 'I am leaving and I am giving you all my isk' and I bet lot of newbies would get targetted by this when someone 'hey have some isk to help you get started' and few days later some large corps/alliances want his head. On top of that players would find way to exploit it like jettison minerals to space and pick it up with alt and sell or anything like that, but real scammers would stay working behind the scene. Better idea would that players stop recruiting anyone and actually do their research on characters background and get to known their members better. I made post about it few days ago how minimalize getting corpthief or spy, which is mostly common sense, but lot seem to ignore it and recruit anyone who come to them and ask 'can I join to your corp?'.
James Raven	Posted - 2005.04.14 12:40:00 - [55] Edited by: James Raven on 14/04/2005 12:42:05 I don't quite agree with you, and here's why. If you let someone into your corporation, guild, clan, whatever you want to call it, make sure that you know them and trust them. And yes, this is just to let them in, not to give them access to any of the corporation's assets or anything like that. Take some precautions to protect yourself and your mates, or m8s as you say, from these so-called "Alt Abusers." Put the new people on probation, where they are part of your group, but have no access what-so-ever to any assets at all. If you're foolish enough to let some wanna-be corporate theif close to your corp's assets, you'll get what you deserve. Trust shouldn't come within a week, or even a month. If you want me to do something for you that requires me to trust you, I'll have to have known you for probably four or five months before even considering it. To conclude, and sum up my thoughts, you've got a brain, use it and you won't have many of the problems you're all up in arms about. Edit: Oh, and capitolizing on people's stupidity and naitivity is what pirates and theives do. They use their brains to outsmart you, so you have to use yours to make sure it doesn't happen. Not that difficult. ---------- I'm not going to protect you from your own stupidity. I'm a space pirate, not your mother.
Nero Scuro	Posted - 2005.04.14 13:11:00 - [56] I like how people (read - idiots) misinterpret this. Since when does alt anoniminity = scamming? Scamming should be kept in the game. Yes, if you get scammed it's your own damn fault. But why should players have to risk their ISK when they go on the market/escrow when scammers don't have to risk anything? Why should corps have to turn away, distrust and waste time scanning noob's login screens when scammers don't have to risk anything? Why should alliances have to gank any and everything that enters their space for fear that it's an alt spy when the spy doesn't have to risk anything? /Signed. ---------------- Haha, stupid monkey! Now I'VE got the Oscar! Enjoy your worthless gun!
KHEN	Posted - 2005.04.14 13:34:00 - [57] I've never been scammed in escrow (just one time buying a slot, I've been idiot, yes). But I'm really tired to see the same old scams in the escrow list, day after day, like you would be tired to see advertising beetween each one of the lines of the newspaper you read each day. It's pollution Furthermore the escrow bug is still there, and it's really annoying to see you items vanish from the list after a few hours meanwhile the scams remain /signed again and again
Dave Day	Posted - 2005.04.14 13:43:00 - [58] NOT signed. I use all 3 char slots and have done from almost day one, nearly 2 years ago. My chars get equal turns in training and have roughly the same in their wallets. They are different races though and fly different ship set ups. They have also trained very different skills and have different 'career' paths. I don't want friends of this char to neccesarily know who the other 2 chars are, not because any of my chars are scammers but I don't particularly want to log on as another char and have all this char's friends convoing me and talking business when I'm trying to play the game as someone else.
Bawlduke	Posted - 2005.04.14 13:56:00 - [59] Originally by: Lobster Man Edited by: Lobster Man on 13/04/2005 21:13:16 Edited by: Lobster Man on 13/04/2005 21:12:47 I'm hesitant to "sign" not because I am a scammer but because this kind of crap, no matter how low, is part of life. If someone steals your CC # in RL they don't get banned, they usually get away with it, unfortunately. I think it all boils down to people should be a bit more careful before they "lend" someone 50mil for that BS or click accept that 120mil escrow without even looking at it. And honestly, whats to stop someone from making a new account and scamming with that one? I don't in any way shape or form support scammers, I just think banning them or something like that will do nothing but cause anger. And then if, god forbid, someone be wrongfully banned, it'd all be over. I do like the idea of being able to see what other char's an alt has tied to it given then right resources. I don't however think that banning a corp thief or someone who tricked someone out of some money is a good idea. Agreed -don't give new players wallet or corp hanger access. -don't give them uber gear. -don't trust them as if they were your mother. -don't expect someone else to think for you all the time. -don't whine when you hand the keys to the vault to a stranger and they steal your isk/gear. Don't expect CCP to code away the need for YOU to think! "it's like Hee Haw in space..."
Demangel	Posted - 2005.04.14 16:35:00 - [60] Big mistake made in this thread... Whenever your trying to make an argument for something, do not use something potentialy controvesial as the best example of why your right... unless your trying to be controversial. That is to say, making alts visible isn't a very controversial argument by comparison to tag teaming it scamming. while some may feel strongly one way or the other, it's not the same as saying scamming should be bannable (which you didn't I know). I for example don't feel scamming should be bannable unless it uses exploits or some other more or less unintended method. But heres something I havn't seen said (I only scanned the thread sorry). Something I find myself saying a LOT lately... Just for different issues each time... sigh... CCP Back before the game was released, the question of alts came up a LOT. Especialy in relation to corp theft etc. Basically people wanted thier cake and to be able to eat it too, Ie multiple chartacters on one account, but with some way of policing alt abuse. CCP had the rather ingenius solution which they stated in the old old old Faq for the game way before this site was put up to replace the old: Alts: Players will be able to have up to three characters per account. However only one character per account will be able to train a skill at a time, and a CEO or other high ranking officer of a corp will be able to see who those alts are, from the application phase, and after (as in through an in game mechanic, which could be used when you apply, and anytime after for as long as your in thier corp). Thus people are encouraged to be careful with how they use thier alts, but will not be limited to just one character either. Granted i am inferring some of the details here, but thats the gist of what they seemed to be saying when they said that people would not be able to hide behind alts because players could see who you alt was. This IMHO wouldn't make a dent in the alt scamming, but really you can't argue about alt scamming without making an issue out of scamming itself... To be honest if EVERYONE could see your alts without being a CEO and without you in or trying to get in thier corp, it would open up a different can of worms from what we have. Not only would the scammers have to live in fear, but we all would, and for no good reason. It would be bad enough if a CEO/recruiter could see your alts with just a click on the right menu... they could of course sell that info if they wanted... But thats all part of the trust both parties need to build up, and a respectable corp wouldn't do this. And would likewise only hire respectable players. In fact MOST big/good corps already require you to send in a screenshot of your character select screen. It's not foolproof, but it cuts down a LOT on abuses such as corp theft spying and so on by making one more hurdle they need to hop over to reach the goal of being an ass. It doesn't however, deal with alt scamming, which in all honesty, while it sucks I think it's here to stay, even if CCP DOES finaly live up to thier promised and put in a feature ceo's and recruiters can use to check alts IN GAME, both durring the recruitment process, and after. There Is a security officer role after all... I'd say that player and the CEO at the very least should be able to have such an option by default. Galaxion > If you drove a car shaped like a thorax women would call you Demangel > Dude... I would call.. Demangel > wait that sounded g@y I bet. Galaxion > Just a bit.
Minnky	Posted - 2005.04.14 18:07:00 - [61] Look, I'm no scammer as much as I'm no 'scammer' IRL. But EVE is mimicing RL, and in RL you have scammers - mainly known as Theieves, Con-artuists, Double Agents etc in their various forms. There is no reaosn in EVE for EVE to get rid of the nasty trait of human nature. Life is a gamble as to who you put your tryust into. So it should be with EVE as it's imitating a Role Play game. Besides, ... only fools or people who can afford it will give money or access to epople they trust. there are ways and means of telling people apart. Use your RL skills to do this. Some times you'll loose, sometimes you'll gain a good friend. But like eve ... 'that's life' .
Lagartija Nick	Posted - 2005.04.14 18:11:00 - [62] Ah, but in RL there are methods in place to catch scammers and hold them accountable, this is the feature that scamming in eve is missing and needs badly.
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.04.14 18:32:00 - [63] It's impossible to get rid of scammers and all the problems associated with alts. There are no CONCORD-style solutions However, EVE should provide tools that make it harder for scammers and alts to abuse others. Right now the best tool is excessive paranoia, not trusting anybody, which is bad. There need to be proactive tools to find out who done what and be able to hit them where it hurts. It won't be easy, it'll still take time and effort, but it should be possible. Once you have tools to hurt alt abusers and scammers, then you got a more or less balanced system.
MacMillan	Posted - 2005.04.14 18:51:00 - [64] Even if you name the alts scamming wont stop as someone said Zeepo aint an alt. I havent been scammed yet (I think) Im just carefull thats the only answer!
Guardian Alpha	Posted - 2005.04.14 18:55:00 - [65] Edited by: Guardian Alpha on 14/04/2005 18:56:59 Alts should not be published. Listen to my reasoning before flaming me: 1. This game involves mutliple kidns of warfare and some of that warfare involves being able to play two completely different types of people. Say a player wants to pilot a Caldari based pilot who is 100% against piracy(in RP). But he has an alt who is a full time pirate and loves it (in RP). This player should be able to enjoy his account and the many possibilities of RP without letting other players judge his other characters based upon another character entirley. 2. Scammers are scammers, and yes they are bad. But the scammers only prey on the weak and easy. Be smart, and you will be fine. Scammers won't go away with alt publication merely because there are scammers in reality, scammers in game, and always stupid people around for them to prey on. 3. Privacy. Maybe a player has their girlfriend's character on the same account, he ganks a pirate corporation and they look for his other alts on the list and begin to hunt down his alts. Whoops, girlfriend gets smashed because the alts were published. She should be able to play without the reprecussions of a seperate character. ------------
Frost Killer	Posted - 2005.04.14 18:58:00 - [66] This has been talked about so man damn times its not funny. Get over it, its not going to happen. Reason why alts are in game, to do other things you don't want to do with your main account, weather it be friendly or not friendly activites who cares. Ex. Main = Pirate, Pirate can't enter empire space Pirate creats Alt. Alt can enter empire space without any troubles and do non-pirating activites to increase funds and equipment. Now im sure the pirate doesn't want an alt named if hes doing other activites not relating to his other character. He wants freedom and thats why we have alts. So in other words live with it, released names will not happen. --------------------------------------------------- Ummm ya....
Cabana Boy	Posted - 2005.04.14 18:59:00 - [67] Edited by: Cabana Boy on 14/04/2005 19:02:56 Signed. I am an alt, and I feel that I am being unfairly treated by the primary account character. All I am allowed to do is rob people and make trips into very dangerous space. This just isn't fair. I can't even begin to tell you what he does to me after the bossman logs out at night. Let's just say I didn't get the name Cabana Boy for nothing, the dirty bastard. I had to brush my teeth like 16 times. I started out this life as a well respected member of the Eve community. I had been originally touted as a science guru, was even given a few points in skill training, until "the other alt" came along. Now "the other alt" gets all the attention that used to be mine, and is even running MY labslots, those are supposed to be MY freakin labslots. But no, now all I do is rob noobs for their 235k ISK that they had been saving for like at least 3 months. So now i run around and everyone yells at me, "Hey you stupid frakin alt, Ima omgwtfbbqpwnh4xor4twshytonastick your ax." That's not very nice. Do you think I like that? Well do you? Don't you think it's about time that I had some rights? Don't you think it's about time that I got a little respect around here? I mean honestly, I'm not even considered to be a real person, I'm an ALT. How Freakin degrading can you get? Honestly, could an ALT write something like this? I am not a prisoner, I am a free man. A free man with an oversized cornhole because all the raming my "primary" gives me. Thank you for caring. Cabana Boy
Capt Hindgrinder	Posted - 2005.04.14 19:23:00 - [68] Originally by: Iluvy Originally by: Lagartija Nick Just reveal the money trail, thats all that really needs to happen. Put the tools in game to hack someones financial records. Once you know where the money is going, you know where to strike. Definately the best answer to the problem so far proposed. Interesting, adds something to the game, allows people to make money through tracking people down, etc. etc.. The possibilities are endless. Negative. I scam u with my alt for 100m isk. I buy 100m isk worth of zyd with my alt. I undock and jet can it at SS. I pick it up with my main. Can you tell me where your money went? C.H.
Cummilla	Posted - 2005.04.14 19:25:00 - [69] Is it really that hard to right click on escrow and INSPECT before buying? These scammer\alt whines are almost as bad as the WCS whinage in Ships and Modules.
TaaS	Posted - 2005.04.14 19:32:00 - [70] Ok fine, it maybe clear that alts won't be publicized, but there HAS to be a way to retaliate against alt scammers. It's complete bull** that scammers can get away by just deleting a char. And please stop making this *** thread about scamming when it isnt ***** about that. This post is about alt abuse and SCAMMERS exploiting alts, NOT SCAMMING. Here are some other solutions to alt abuse: 1. Make creating a second and third char cost ISK from the first char. The price could be a percent of the a persons wallet or a set amount 2. Add the talked about money tracking feature. People with proper skills or agents could get a readout of a persons journal to see where funds have been going. (This can easily be fooled by laundering money and passing it through different people and messing with amounts(would actually take some brains and critical thinking skills from people to pull off, which I don't doubt many EVE players have)) 3. Tag chars as main and alts 4. Have an account wallet instead of individual char wallets. This wouldn't allow people to directly find out a scammers main immediatly. But if they got scammed and then later noticed in their transactions the same wallet name as the scammer had, he would be tipped off. 5. MY favorite and easiest but not ganna happen. Publicize alts :) Post more if you can think of them people. This needs fixing quick. And to those who say this mimmicks real life...thats bull. There are many many many many ways for a person to get caught scamming in real life. It is an extremely risky and dangerous and hard profession to be a scammer in real life, while in EVE a retarded monkey could do it. So it is NO WAY like real life... Sorry for my outbursts and outburst posts...I get extremely irriated when people post and shoot down my post when they don't even understand what the topic is about... (IE. PEople argueing that scamming is a game machinic as a counter-point to my arguement when thats not what I'm saying at all, I'm all for scamming, I hope it increases. All I need to have is a way to do something about it)
Hydroponica	Posted - 2005.04.14 20:17:00 - [71] I dunno, just sounds like another form of pirating to me. Sux, but it's part of the game. Crying over lost pretend money just seems stupid, learn from it, and don't let it happen again ***********************************
James Raven	Posted - 2005.04.14 20:26:00 - [72] Edited by: James Raven on 14/04/2005 20:30:17 Originally by: TaaS Ok fine, it maybe clear that alts won't be publicized, but there HAS to be a way to retaliate against alt scammers. It's complete bull** that scammers can get away by just deleting a char. And please stop making this *** thread about scamming when it isnt ***** about that. This post is about alt abuse and SCAMMERS exploiting alts, NOT SCAMMING. Here are some other solutions to alt abuse: 1. Make creating a second and third char cost ISK from the first char. The price could be a percent of the a persons wallet or a set amount 2. Add the talked about money tracking feature. People with proper skills or agents could get a readout of a persons journal to see where funds have been going. (This can easily be fooled by laundering money and passing it through different people and messing with amounts(would actually take some brains and critical thinking skills from people to pull off, which I don't doubt many EVE players have)) 3. Tag chars as main and alts 4. Have an account wallet instead of individual char wallets. This wouldn't allow people to directly find out a scammers main immediatly. But if they got scammed and then later noticed in their transactions the same wallet name as the scammer had, he would be tipped off. 5. MY favorite and easiest but not ganna happen. Publicize alts :) Post more if you can think of them people. This needs fixing quick. And to those who say this mimmicks real life...thats bull. There are many many many many ways for a person to get caught scamming in real life. It is an extremely risky and dangerous and hard profession to be a scammer in real life, while in EVE a retarded monkey could do it. So it is NO WAY like real life... Sorry for my outbursts and outburst posts...I get extremely irriated when people post and shoot down my post when they don't even understand what the topic is about... (IE. PEople argueing that scamming is a game machinic as a counter-point to my arguement when thats not what I'm saying at all, I'm all for scamming, I hope it increases. All I need to have is a way to do something about it) Alright, I'll bite. What's your post about, then? Cite examples where alt abuse could not have been prevented had you or your corp mates shown a little bit of caution? You keep saying you don't have a way to prevent it. Well, here's one: think about the person you're letting into your corporation or gang. Talk to them, get to know them, try and find out if they're in it for real, or for personal gain. I have yet to see any plausible reasoning behind this whole thread NOT being about getting scammed because someone has an alt that does these things. Edit: Sorry for the edit, just thought of a good example for my own line of thinking on this. Take a real world corporation. Go and try to become a worker for them, a member if you will. How long does it take for you to get any standing whatsoever? Quite a long time, right? Do you know why it takes that long? The corporation wants to make sure they can trust you enough to work for them and make sure you're not some moron trying to get their company secrets or money or whatever else. As with anything when dealing with REAL PEOPLE, expect some to be "pirates" and take some caution before unlocking all your valuables for them to see. Sheesh. Refer to my sig if you have any questions. ---------- I'm not going to protect you from your own stupidity. I'm a space pirate, not your mother.
forsaken valkrie	Posted - 2006.05.03 07:09:00 - [73] ok well hey im an alt i think you are kinda stupid why the hell woud you tag an alt its a waste of time to do for ccp and it will never happen so get over it besides if youd look in the bio of most alts they say thay are alts so go buzz off m8
Teblin	Posted - 2006.05.03 07:11:00 - [74] Necromancy. forum rules \| [email protected]

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