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David Devant CTRL-Q Iron Oxide. 30	Posted - 2012.11.17 11:02:00 - [1] - Quote With the coming of Retribution we will be getting some lovely new toys. Everybody is excited about the new pocket fleets. A brave new world where no ship is left behind and skill matters more than skill points. No one should be more excited than we servants of empire. Faction warfare is surely what these changes were meant for. Where in null sec people will still say 'lol augoror' and blap your ass lickety spilt, in faction warfare we have the opportunity for a more beautiful game. Well formed gangs will be protected from hideous overships and strategic play will rule the day. But this will only happen if we fight for territory; if we fight for plexes. I have a dream! But it's not coming true. Please, please, please make it happen people. And if you don't think it will, say why not, and say what needs to change. Thx.
WonkySplitDemon The Forsworn Protectorate Imperial Protectorate 14	Posted - 2012.11.17 11:05:00 - [2] - Quote Erm, we flipped oyeman this morning :)
David Devant CTRL-Q Iron Oxide. 30	Posted - 2012.11.17 11:11:00 - [3] - Quote WonkySplitDemon wrote: Erm, we flipped oyeman this morning :) Did you get a fight doing it? That's the problem.
WonkySplitDemon The Forsworn Protectorate Imperial Protectorate 14	Posted - 2012.11.17 11:19:00 - [4] - Quote Nope, to be honest David things have been quiet the past few days, not seen many fleets around at all
David Devant CTRL-Q Iron Oxide. 30	Posted - 2012.11.17 11:24:00 - [5] - Quote WonkySplitDemon wrote: Nope, to be honest David things have been quiet the past few days, not seen many fleets around at all You won't remember mate, but people used to actually fight for system occupancy rather than just flipping it back and forth. Those plex fights, where people were restricted to certain ships types and had to re-tool for different plexes were some of the best I've had in eve. With the new hulls they will be amazing, if, they happen at all.
Val'Dore PlanetCorp InterStellar 200	Posted - 2012.11.17 11:24:00 - [6] - Quote Logistics only encourage bigger blobs and worse overshipping. Star Jump Drive
David Devant CTRL-Q Iron Oxide. 30	Posted - 2012.11.17 11:29:00 - [7] - Quote Val'Dore wrote: Logistics only encourage bigger blobs and worse overshipping. Logistics encourages people to think rather than simply throwing pppppppppp v ppppppppp. Regardless please stick to the op. To summarise: Plex fights were good. They could be really good come 4th December. Can we have plex fights again? If not why not? What can we do to fix it?
Veshta Yoshida PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 384	Posted - 2012.11.17 12:20:00 - [8] - Quote David Devant wrote: WonkySplitDemon wrote: Nope, to be honest David things have been quiet the past few days, not seen many fleets around at all You won't remember mate, but people used to actually fight for system occupancy rather than just flipping it back and forth. Those plex fights, where people were restricted to certain ships types and had to re-tool for different plexes were some of the best I've had in eve. With the new hulls they will be amazing, if, they happen at all. Aaaah, nostalgia. Apart from the broken DT-shuffle back in the day, the fighting was superb the couple of times a week when forces were 'equal' As for Retribution ushering in a Golden Age for FW ... new connections, revamped hull and revised NPCs do indeed give me a glimmer of hope, but .... it will depend on whether they go ahead with the, quite frankly, brain dead (not cool zombie brain dead either!) plan to homogenize plex restrictions. So everyone drop your "WeGÖÑCCP" flags, wipe the brown off your noses and get back on the barricades so that silliness stays in the ground!
Trinkets friend Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance 541	Posted - 2012.11.17 12:46:00 - [9] - Quote I disagree that logi breeds blob. The few times I have seen a hub flipped, it either involves supers from Amarr militia, or a guardian-supported RR BS fleet from Minmatar (although, I will qualify this with "I am sure someone dropped supers on the Amarr back in the day"). Either way, fights over the hub itself seem mostly gone because the guys with a tie to the system that's being lost are going to be evaccing hulls to avoid the lockout, and the flippers are more worried about welping the hub in a sane length of time than trying to catch the losers. I also disagree that a couple of Augorors will breed a real blob. I mean...the rep output isn't enough to preserve the logi buddy you have from any real DPS, is hardly enough to preserve your DPS ships anyway, and it is yet to be seen whether you can make them capstable and functional like an Ironclad guardian. Will they get used, FOTM style for the first while? Yes. Will this be true of the logi frigates? Yes. Will you see blobs of frigates and dessies rolling around with organic logi Yes. This of course being a good thing because when Fweddit's 20-man thrasher blob rolls through there's not many people who would go up against them right now in a smaller gang of dessies. Post-Retribution, someone will try it out with the logi frigs. The T1 logi cruisers will find a niche because they appear to be effective, less expensive than the real logis, and good for small gangs of 4-8 DPS ships and 2 logi's. That is hardly a blob, its a gang, and it promises to be fun. For real blobs, they will be valuable swing-hitters for logistic work, but if you deploy enough to really sort your defense you will be lacking offense. A blob of 40 guys half of who are logi cruisers isn't that fearsome (especially if it's Eve Uni as we know it will be; 20 Blackbirds, 20 Ospreys, good to go!) What is holding FW back in my opinion is more the OGB alts which allow a static player to camp plexes in ships which punch twice or three times above their weight, which gets very boring very quickly, so no one engages them and the situation gets rather tired. Whenever CCP brings the nerf bat onto this will really address alt proliferation and allow small gangs to attack certain other players faction fit pimped cruisers with the booster on the field. You'll get most of the benefit with all of the risk you should be taking for paying two subs and only ever risking nything with one. Taking submissions for "Trinkets friendly Advice Column" via evemail or private convo in-game. Anonymity sorta guaranteed.
SAJUK NIGARRA Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly 6	Posted - 2012.11.17 12:56:00 - [10] - Quote Only too much spinning in circles around a button can bring one in a state where he doesn't realise that few reps on a ship with t1 resists will make little to no difference. Stop spinning, you are NOT a washing machine !
Joanna Ramirez Intaki Militia 89	Posted - 2012.11.17 14:01:00 - [11] - Quote David Devant wrote: But this will only happen if we fight for territory; if we fight for plexes. I have a dream! But it's not coming true. Please, please, please make it happen people. And if you don't think it will, say why not, and say what needs to change. Thx. We fight for sovereignty which the plexes are. Why would anybody strive to bring some golden age every day you log on you have to choose between "Not having to move your stuff out" and "good fight". Do 0.0 blobs bring "good fights" when they are on structure grinds? I just dont see why anyone would want good fight in this kind of heavy farming enviroment we already have in FW. This is how it will happen and turn out. Logi blob on outnumbering side and others will eventually decide to drop the pretense entirely and the other side can then go to forums and high-five themselves.
Crosi Wesdo Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly 370	Posted - 2012.11.17 14:50:00 - [12] - Quote Plex fighting involves a lot of d-scanning and reshipping to counter. I think station lockouts are a key problem contributing to the death of plex fighting. Its too easy for a defender to reship to counter while you may have a number of jumps to do so. Also, attacking a plex where your enemy gang are already set up is far too large a disadvantage and can usually only be done in numbers that your enemy will likely not engage unless really bored. Im sure the new ships will offer more options to counter sniper nano and encourage more diversity in ships and fitting. Who knows.
Cromwell Savage Quantum Cats Syndicate Drunk 'n' Disorderly 90	Posted - 2012.11.17 15:01:00 - [13] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: I think station lockouts are a key problem contributing to the death of plex fighting. +1 The station docking mechanic in FW is the absolute worst idea ever implemented.
Zarnak Wulf Imperial Outlaws 733	Posted - 2012.11.17 15:05:00 - [14] - Quote There could be quite a few reasons why OP yearns for a new 'Golden Age' Amarr have a weak European TZ contingent. We have recruited quite a few new people. You don't take them up against a well oiled machine until you have vetted them a bit. I think new ship doctrines will help. I think the new gates will really help. Part of the problem is a numbers discrepancy. I can tell you from an Amarr point of view that I find it very easy to find fights as soon as I log on. The new gates and ships will help even the odds and more people will hopefully join Amarr as a result.
subtle turtle Imperial Outlaws 76	Posted - 2012.11.17 15:13:00 - [15] - Quote David Devant wrote: With the coming of Retribution we will be getting some lovely new toys. Everybody is excited about the new pocket fleets. A brave new world where no ship is left behind and skill matters more than skill points. No one should be more excited than we servants of empire. Faction warfare is surely what these changes were meant for. Where in null sec people will still say 'lol augoror' and blap your ass lickety spilt, in faction warfare we have the opportunity for a more beautiful game. Well formed gangs will be protected from hideous overships and strategic play will rule the day. But this will only happen if we fight for territory; if we fight for plexes. I have a dream! But it's not coming true. Please, please, please make it happen people. And if you don't think it will, say why not, and say what needs to change. Thx. Keep in mind, part of our "new toys" will be a revamp of plex mechanics to encourage fighting. In particular, moving the warp in closer to the button should help. We often won't warp into a roughly equal fleet because they have had a chance to "set up" within the plex, and jumping in on them would be suicidal. But also, I think the plex fighting is just starting. We have been getting some amazing fights in the US timezone, using the plexes to help dictate the terms of the fight. Of course, we also use them as an out from a fight we know we can't win, which forces opponents to downship if they want a fight. While it may not be quite a "golden age," I think the PVP in FW right now is pretty damn good, and has a lot of potential to be amazing when the player base adapts fully to the new meta.
Machiavelli's Nemesis Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide. 36	Posted - 2012.11.17 15:20:00 - [16] - Quote subtle turtle wrote: Keep in mind, part of our "new toys" will be a revamp of plex mechanics to encourage fighting. In particular, moving the warp in closer to the button should help. We often won't warp into a roughly equal fleet because they have had a chance to "set up" within the plex, and jumping in on them would be suicidal. This is a part of it. Attacking uphill is offputting when you have anything like equal numbers, so it either kills the chance of a fight or encourages bringing overwhelming numbers. But then, moving the button may not totally eliminate the utility of setting up at range of the warpin. Hopefully it'll cause an increase in closeup brawling though, that's the sort of thing I look forward to.
David Devant CTRL-Q Iron Oxide. 34	Posted - 2012.11.17 16:57:00 - [17] - Quote So far: - Station lockouts are bad - LP as a motivation is bad I don't agree that defensive placement is too much of a advantage, should be easier to break with new ewar and logi. For myself, as I have said elsewhere, plex fighting has no meaningful purpose for gangs and I think this needs to change. Other than to get a fight why would you bother. Some sense of shared purpose needs to be fostered.
Cearain Imperial Outlaws 649	Posted - 2012.11.17 17:27:00 - [18] - Quote subtle turtle wrote: David Devant wrote: With the coming of Retribution we will be getting some lovely new toys. Everybody is excited about the new pocket fleets. A brave new world where no ship is left behind and skill matters more than skill points. No one should be more excited than we servants of empire. Faction warfare is surely what these changes were meant for. Where in null sec people will still say 'lol augoror' and blap your ass lickety spilt, in faction warfare we have the opportunity for a more beautiful game. Well formed gangs will be protected from hideous overships and strategic play will rule the day. But this will only happen if we fight for territory; if we fight for plexes. I have a dream! But it's not coming true. Please, please, please make it happen people. And if you don't think it will, say why not, and say what needs to change. Thx. Keep in mind, part of our "new toys" will be a revamp of plex mechanics to encourage fighting. In particular, moving the warp in closer to the button should help. We often won't warp into a roughly equal fleet because they have had a chance to "set up" within the plex, and jumping in on them would be suicidal.. This won't change the advantage of being in the plex first. Only one person needs to be on the button. The rest of the fleet can be anywhere. This change will just lead to more ganks not more fights. I'm not sure ccp really understands the difference, since they just count explosions. It will just mean that people flying cheaper ships will find they are getting ganked by tech 2 and pirate ships more often. And having tech 2 ships in every plex will also mean people will need to ship up to more expensive ships and therefore be more risk adverse. The timer roll back on the whole will be good but combined with the closer warp in, and the new plex restrictions, it won't be that great. Again it will mean if you want to make isk you will have to fly the absolute best ship the plex can take. That means more expensive hulls and more risk aversion and risk averse strategies. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain Imperial Outlaws 649	Posted - 2012.11.17 17:33:00 - [19] - Quote David Devant wrote: So far: - Station lockouts are bad - LP as a motivation is bad I don't agree that defensive placement is too much of a advantage, should be easier to break with new ewar and logi. For myself, as I have said elsewhere, plex fighting has no meaningful purpose for gangs and I think this needs to change. Other than to get a fight why would you bother. Some sense of shared purpose needs to be fostered. Lp is a great motivator. Isk is the primary motivator in this game. It is a good way to help people pay for the ships they will hopefully start losing if this becomes are real pvp mechanic. But the system should be meaningful. Here is my view on what will fix faction war: I would like the the original inferno tier system but toned down. Instead of tier 5 being 75% discount maybe make it a 60% discount. But keep it so there is no lp for d-plexing and keep it where there is no reason to join a side that just did a tier 5 cashout because you will have just missed the boat. The cashouts gave goals instead of this forever grind we have now. Perhaps the time between cashouts should be longer or shorter. I really don't care, but that could easilly be accomplished by changing the vp per plex. (yes i said vp not lp. vp is how much a system is contested per plex) As for the other changes I would still recomend that they make plexing a pvp game as per my signature. But if they must have npcs I like what hans has proposed and what ccp is doing. Must kill them all etc. Another key is to start notifying us when plexes are attacked and a form of timer rollback. But these notifications and timer rollbacks will not be good if the war is lopsided. And unfortunately because they chose a lopsided financial system that sort of ruins the whole thing. To the extent people say that there is no advantage to winning under the old system if everyone can hit tier five, I would say that if your side currently has over 50% of the systems you get full lp for pvp and a 50% bonus (over pre inferno rates) to the lp you get for missions. If your side has under 50% of the systems then you get half the lp for pvp and only preinferno pay for missions. Plus the side that hold the majority of systems over a 12 month period would get some other perk. Perhaps an economic one like an additional item in the lp store, or just improve a unique item (make amarr plates or eg, minmatar shield worth buying) Or it could be a non-economic one like a statue in the fw system that was held by the militia long enough. The statue could be of the person who got the most kills or the most vp or the ceo or the corp with the most kills or vp or it could be a statue of all 4 or whatever. Other sorts of swag for winning could be an increase in your factions corporations in the war zone. So if minmatar win some of the carthum stations might become boundless stations. There are plenty of options. The idea is that there would be very short term goals like capture this plex. Medium term goals like achieve a tier 5 cashout, and long term goals like memoralize our achievments permantently in the game through continued dominance. Because these goals all have different timelines people would always have more to fight for. The game would be economically balanced as long as everyside could achieve tier 5 cashouts. If they did this and one side still couldn't hit a tier 5 cashout then they could do some tweaks like reduce the vp for d-plexing. Or they could say you can't start plexing a system for a set time after it flips, or if you do, you don't get as much vp. Which option would depend on the specific reason why a certain faction was unable to achieve any tier 5 cashouts. FW doesn't need to be economically lopsided to make it meaningful. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
roigon Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 38	Posted - 2012.11.17 17:38:00 - [20] - Quote in my own personal opinion, the worst thing about faction war is faction war. I like the plexes since they promote equal hardware battles to some extent but that's about it. Any game system that introduces a strategic goal will get in the way of good fights because it introduces a stimulus to win fights. People who just want to win fights don't create good fights. LP/tiers/system control. It can all be canned imho. As for the upcoming ship changes. I very much look forward to it, and I would be incredibly surprised if it didn't shake up the meta in faction war in terms of what ships/fleets people fly.
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate Drunk 'n' Disorderly 244	Posted - 2012.11.17 18:07:00 - [21] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Im sure the new ships will offer more options to counter sniper nano and encourage more diversity in ships and fitting. Who knows. I doubt it - if anything it's going to be a nano age with the new caracals coming out.
Deacon Abox Genstar Inc Villore Accords 11	Posted - 2012.11.17 18:54:00 - [22] - Quote It won't be a golden age because they are opening medium plexes to all cruiser sized ships. That means no more current medium plexes with only tech I and faction cruisers. Instead soon everyone will encounter tech II and III cruisers in those sites. there will be no place really for tech I cruisers. Rather sad after they worked to buff them. The golden age is already here as far as plex restrictions, and will be lost with the next patch.
agharaster Hoplite Brigade 2	Posted - 2012.11.18 00:43:00 - [23] - Quote +1 for the FW scenario. Thanks David for the suggestions. Talking about plexing i definitely think they are the best/fast way to get a fight in FW. Actually i noticed that a lot of piretes (most of the time amarr friends) are populating kourm-auga area, that shakes things up but sometimes make the gameplay a little boring. I'm waiting for ccp to nerf the out-of-grid boosters and i'm waiting for new missile tracking disruptors script and mods, but i'm shure that new T1 cruisers will work great in the FW skirmishes, just like slashers and condors, or the amazing atron. o7 aga
Garr Earthbender Justified Chaos 72	Posted - 2012.11.18 02:39:00 - [24] - Quote It'll be nice when a thrasher won't be able to get off grid boosts while in a FW plex. Yeah, I know it's a ways away, but STILL. Gonna be great! No reason to boost/risk a T3 or command ship for a damn frigate or destroyer eh? -Rock is overpowered, Scissors is fine.
SAJUK NIGARRA Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly 6	Posted - 2012.11.18 09:36:00 - [25] - Quote I am genuinely asking, why would T2 cruisers in medium plexes would be a problem ? I mean, isk should not really be a problem in FW. And as for SP, most of the people complaining here shoudl be able to fly T2/T3 no prob. And even if FW it should have a low entry barrier, am sure with the changes to T1 cruisers, new guys can still hep with ewar and stuff. Plus a lot of ppl in HACs and such will give newer guys something to aspire to ...
Sin Zarah Dreamseeker Industries 1	Posted - 2012.11.18 10:32:00 - [26] - Quote SAJUK NIGARRA wrote: I am genuinely asking, why would T2 cruisers in medium plexes would be a problem ? I mean, isk should not really be a problem in FW. As for SP, most of the people complaining here shoudl be able to fly T2/T3 no prob. Because if people can ship-up they will ship-up. Same reason why frig plexes were dominated by Dramiel's right after the pirate ship buff. Regular T1 frigs used to have no role in plexes before their buff because they were utterly dominated by the faction and pirate frigs and Thrashers. By restricting ship-classes to classes of roughly equal ability, you encourage people to engage on more even terms. And even terms means more fights and more excitiment. People don't need to be encouraged to ship-up, they do that naturally. They need to be encouraged to ship-down.
Joanna Ramirez Intaki Militia 89	Posted - 2012.11.18 10:59:00 - [27] - Quote Sin Zarah wrote: People don't need to be encouraged to ship-up, they do that naturally. They need to be encouraged to ship-down. Too much isk and station lock-out at stake, nobody will reship for good fights. People who want challenging fights are a minority in Eve, maybe 0,1% of players put fun above profit. It's why we have whole corps of people who wont even undock a t1 frigate without t3 link/scout alt in tow.
SAJUK NIGARRA Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly 6	Posted - 2012.11.18 12:12:00 - [28] - Quote Sin Zarah wrote: SAJUK NIGARRA wrote: I am genuinely asking, why would T2 cruisers in medium plexes would be a problem ? I mean, isk should not really be a problem in FW. As for SP, most of the people complaining here shoudl be able to fly T2/T3 no prob. Because if people can ship-up they will ship-up. By restricting ship-classes to classes of roughly equal ability, you encourage people to engage on more even terms. And even terms means more fights and more excitiment. Well, what is wrong with shipping up ? More shiny explosions. Am sure you would rather kill me in a zealot than an arbitrator .. Also, I am not sure that more excitement comes from even terms. I would think that putting a lot of effort and strategy in to getting better terms would give one more sense of achievement. Dunno, I might see it wrong, but playing Eve as an arcade game is wasting it's enormous potential, plus there are much better shooters out there than "Submarines in Space, Arcade version" TL'DR : IMO it's normal that ppl that go trough the trouble of training t2 ships and buying them will have an advantage over ppl that don't.
Sin Zarah Dreamseeker Industries 1	Posted - 2012.11.18 13:37:00 - [29] - Quote SAJUK NIGARRA wrote: Well, what is wrong with shipping up ? More shiny explosions. Am sure you would rather kill me in a zealot than an arbitrator .. Because it is a very uninteresting tactical decision. The decision to ship-up is not a very challenging decision, it doesn't take much intelligence to figure out that its good to do: it is boring. Might as well remove many ship classes entirely. SAJUK NIGARRA wrote: Also, I am not sure that more excitement comes from even terms. I would think that putting a lot of effort and strategy in to getting better terms would give one more sense of achievement. I think you should be condemned to a year of playing games where everyone is either hugely better than you, or everyone is very much worse than you. I think you'd be bored silly. Why do you think you there are things like leagues, ladders, matchmakers etc. in both online and offline games. Because when parties are roughly evenly matched and the outcome is not sure from the outset, it becomes interesting to partcipate in, and interesting to watch. How interesting do you think they alliance tournament would be if both sides could ship up without limit? SAJUK NIGARRA wrote: Dunno, I might see it wrong, but playing Eve as an arcade game is wasting it's enormous potential, plus there are much better shooters out there than "Submarines in Space, Arcade version" Yes, you are seeing this wrong. I don't see or play Eve as an arcade game. Please don't make such implications, you are only confusing the issue by doing so. SAJUK NIGARRA wrote: I think you are looking for flaws on the wrong side of the fence. The problem is not with the people that will bring the t2 cruisers, the flaw is with the people that will see T2 cruisers and choose the easy option of complaining instead of thinking of an effective counter, be it gank thoraxs, swarm of T1 fit dessies or any other of the countless possibilities. No, I am not. The problem is that you seem to be unable to see the wider game. I prefer a game that has tactical variation, so that more meaningful choices emerge. To use an analogy: I prefer EVE not to be a fight on a flat plain with perfect visibility, but I prefer variations in terrain features. Woods, hills, night, day, rain, sun, wind, mud etc. etc. Plex restrictions are one of EVE's only limited 'terrain features', frig plexes are like dense forest or urban area, only accessible by small individual units (footsoldiers). If those restriction weren't present, you would probably see primarily things like tanks and jet fighters on the battlefield. SAJUK NIGARRA wrote: TL'DR : IMO it's normal that ppl that go trough the trouble of training t2 ships and buying them will have an advantage over ppl that don't, and it's normal that they'd be allowed to put that advantage to use. That is one of the boring game rules ever. I don't think you would want to apply that to any of the games you played as a kid. Just see yourself asking: mom, dad, why are you always starting chess games with 8 queens in the front row, and me with pawns? And they respond with 'hey, we went to the trouble of learning chess 30 years ago, we are entitled to put that advantage to use' There is nothing wrong with shipping up in itself. There is something wrong when shipping up is the only sensible choice to a wide range of scenario's.
Joanna Ramirez Intaki Militia 89	Posted - 2012.11.18 14:36:00 - [30] - Quote Sin Zarah wrote: That is one of the boring game rules ever. I don't think you would want to apply that to any of the games you played as a kid. That is just usual SOTF smack talk. Basicly he hates the idea of plexes and flying "crappy t1 boats" and conviniently forgets the fact that Caldari is completely outnumbered so it's easy for him to say things like "Bring moar gank raxes" when he fully knows that they can still outnumber said gank raxes in t2 cruiser hulls.

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