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TriadSte IronPig Sev3rance 128	Posted - 2012.11.20 16:47:00 - [1] - Quote What exactly is causing the demand for buyers? when they're spiking so high? I understand supply/demand but why is the demand so great right now with these horrible prices? I personally think that at over 600 million now, is far too high. I remember moaning though when they were 380 million. I understand that you cant just dump these on the market and make the prices bomb but Id for sure like some market expert to drop by this thread and enlighten myself a mere market amateur as to what's driving the sales of these things.
Cipio Hakoke Cipio Industries 7	Posted - 2012.11.20 17:20:00 - [2] - Quote Well i can't speak to if the demand is so high atm, but as inflation occurs the prices will steadily rise. There was a big spike in plex a while ago when all the tourney people were buying up plex.
Bugsy VanHalen Society of lost Souls 260	Posted - 2012.11.20 17:37:00 - [3] - Quote TriadSte wrote: What exactly is causing the demand for buyers? when they're spiking so high? I understand supply/demand but why is the demand so great right now with these horrible prices? I personally think that at over 600 million now, is far too high. I remember moaning though when they were 380 million. I understand that you cant just dump these on the market and make the prices bomb but Id for sure like some market expert to drop by this thread and enlighten myself a mere market amateur as to what's driving the sales of these things. As far as demand goes. much of the world economy is still recovering from the big dive it took over the last few years. With many players having income reduced or expenses increased due to rising energy rates paying a subscription for a game is less of a priority for many players. If your choices are give up the game or spend isk on PLEX to keep playing what would you choose? The fact that you are asking this question would seem to indicate you are or at least have considered paying for game time through isk for PLEX. You reasons for this are your own. Many other players are also looking in the same direction, which has lead to the increased demand. In addition to this the rising PLEX prices have encouraged more players who do have disposable income to buy PLEX to sell in game for isk as the returns are much higher. I believe this has actually curbed the inflation of PLEX. Based strictly on demand it could be much higher. Considering when PLEX was 380 mil trit was about 3.6. trit is now between 5.5 and 6. If you use trit as a base line for inflation. This is reasonable as it is the highest volume traded item on the market and is used in almost everything. 3.6isk/unit compared to say 5.6isk/unit now. the 380 mil for a PLEX with the same rate of inflation would be 591 mil. Considering that trit has come down. It was over 7 for quite a while which would have put PLEX at 750 mil with balanced inflation(which it never hit). I would say the current prices of PLEX are cheap compared to what it could be. I will not be the least bit surprised if PLEX hits 1 bil by X-mas.
Harbingour EVE Corporation 690846961 11	Posted - 2012.11.20 18:46:00 - [4] - Quote Cipio Hakoke wrote: Well i can't speak to if the demand is so high atm, but as inflation occurs the prices will steadily rise. There was a big spike in plex a while ago when all the tourney people were buying up plex. Right now we really are in a bit of an information black out concerning the economy... last thing CCP semi officially said about the economy was in the CSM minutes where i twas stated that there was actually a period of deflation in Eve ( PLEX was still inflating at this time though?!?! ) I think right after the last FW change to the summer of LP bonanza PLEX saw a drop of40 million ISK but since they've held steady. If PLEX start rising again expect the NULL folks to blame HI SEC & scream for nerfs of all things in HI SEC without any factual basis of stats. Only thing right now CCP can pull out to combat inflation if its really still unabaited is CCP Soundwave's threat for an across the board 10% bounties cut unless new sinks are introduced quickly. Expect the howels in the forums then to induce bleeding of the ears especially ifwe see repeat of how Incursions 10% cut decimated them. ( Interestingly enough it WAS NOT the 10% payout cut that stunted sites: it was a near doubling of rats which caused tripling oftime to complete the sites and Wall of OTAs... if the new AI causes a tripleing of time to complete missions like what happened with Incursions I predict a time of troubles & HI sec unsubs ) Meta-gaming for NULL SECCers: Whine on the forums until CCP gets sick of you and hands you everything you ask for just to shut you up. Typical NULL SEC arguement to NERF HI SEC-á-á http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csPPqdbcVwM
TriadSte IronPig Sev3rance 128	Posted - 2012.11.20 19:54:00 - [5] - Quote I was one of those incursion runners who cried :P You are totally right though it was not the pay cut that did it it was the sheer HP of the rats etc. What CCP dont seem to grasp is that I for one did it for the fleet working together side of things to learn about how fleets work how FCs work etc and it put me in good sted down in null. [i was a empire bear] CCP should seriously step in and curb this inflation imo. If you corrolate the amount of isk you get for selling a plex then look at what things are actually worth its crazy.
Fractal Muse Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2012.11.20 20:01:00 - [6] - Quote Part of the price for PLEX is speculation. A -lot- of people (for the supply of in-game PLEX that is) are / were using PLEX as an "investment" on the assumption that it will keep on rising. PLEX prices have been dropping since midway through October so I think the PLEX market is breaking down. PLEX cost almost 650 million midway through October. The current price is ~600 million. PLEX prices are definitely dropping.
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking 922	Posted - 2012.11.20 20:24:00 - [7] - Quote Harbingour wrote: I think right after the last FW change to the summer of LP bonanza PLEX saw a drop of 40 million ISK but since they've held steady. If PLEX start rising again expect the NULL folks to blame HI SEC & scream for nerfs of all things in HI SEC without any factual basis of stats. Funny you say that. I DO consider mackinaws in empire that make 14-18m/hr (more like 25+ when fleet boosted by an orca) to be a problem, a major contributing factor to why plexes are not falling in the wake of the FW nerf and even slowly continuing to rise. However, that's not necessarily a problem with high sec itself so much as it is the state CCP has left the mineral market in. If low end prices were "normal" - say, trit for 3.5, pyerite at 5, mex at 30 and isogen at 60 - then it would be more like 7-8m/hr, 11-13 with an orca booster, which is far more reasonable for an almost entirely afk activity. Not that you'll acknowledge this, of course, as any and all nerfs to highsec are unwarranted, in your mind. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. fofofo
Minister Man Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.11.20 20:42:00 - [8] - Quote Mining doesn't inject isk into the game so does nothing to inflation rate at all. The only way I can see a high return on mining affecting the price of plex would be people obtaining multiple accounts to run miners and thus requiring more plex to fund those accounts. I am of the belief that plex prices are so high is due to speculators. People have invested a lot of money into plex, so they don't want to see the prices drop. So if they lose a 100 million here or there to keep the prices high it is acceptable to keep their 100b stockpile from dropping.
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking 922	Posted - 2012.11.20 21:39:00 - [9] - Quote Minister Man wrote: Mining doesn't inject isk into the game so does nothing to inflation rate at all. Neither did FW and yet CCP themselves said that it was at least in part to blame for pushing PLEX prices. By now there's probably at least 500 trillion (half a quadrillion!) isk floating around the economy, but a lot of it is sitting there, unused. The actual amount that moves on a daily basis is perhaps 15-20 trillion. So, anything that encourages that to increase (such as FW) is basically as good as an actual faucet. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. fofofo
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 367	Posted - 2012.11.21 00:04:00 - [10] - Quote Well this is awkward. CCP blamed FW for the rapid rise of PLEX and it has been 2 weeks and counting since the FW nerf and PLEX has been going up in price. Oops. What will CCP blame it on next, Incursions again? Or maybe missions and afk mack ice mining are the culprit? Does CCP have the balls to go ahead with a 10% pay cut in all bounties? 700m per plex by years end?

corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking 924	Posted - 2012.11.21 00:40:00 - [11] - Quote Well to be fair... Quote: Although FW is not an isk faucet and does not generate any additional isk in the economy, the influx of cheap LP store items has caused a crash in the income of some mission runners and the concentration of wealth has contributed to the rising price of PLEX on the open market. "Has contributed to" is not the same as "is the sole cause of". This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. fofofo
The Chronophage Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 17	Posted - 2012.11.21 00:48:00 - [12] - Quote http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15232210 This could also be contributing.
Dave stark Black Nova Corp. R O G U E 670	Posted - 2012.11.21 00:53:00 - [13] - Quote The Chronophage wrote: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15232210 This could also be contributing. i'll see your obelisk and raise you this. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold.
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking 924	Posted - 2012.11.21 01:02:00 - [14] - Quote Kills like that are hilarious, but irrelevant. They're too rare to have a meaningful impact on prices at all. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. fofofo
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 2001	Posted - 2012.11.21 01:35:00 - [15] - Quote Vaal Erit wrote: Well this is awkward. CCP blamed FW for the rapid rise of PLEX and it has been 2 weeks and counting since the FW nerf and PLEX has been going up in price. Oops. What will CCP blame it on next, Incursions again? Or maybe missions and afk mack ice mining are the culprit? Does CCP have the balls to go ahead with a 10% pay cut in all bounties? 700m per plex by years end? CCP did not nerf FW because it caused inflation but because it was a monkey mode to get humongous amounts of ISK. Mining does not compare, because: - you need lots of accounts to make for 1 FW or pre-nerf incursion runner. - look at ice prices, they tanked to super-low. Low end minerals are holding because high ends have tanked and because we are in a high demand period of the year (which also somewhat revitalized high ends). What needs to be nerfed is real faucets and I am not sure hi sec L4 missions is as huge of the kind of that as the past. Drone regions were an ultra-huge minerals faucet and almost halved low end minerals value till it got converted into ISK faucet. Now, drone regions have joined the ISK faucets bandwagon, this will require an across the board nerf of a massive magnitude, which will have negative secondary consequences on many other mini-games. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Harbingour EVE Corporation 690846961 11	Posted - 2012.11.21 02:17:00 - [16] - Quote corestwo wrote: Funny you say that. I DO consider mackinaws in empire that make 14-18m/hr (more like 25+ when fleet boosted by an orca) to be a problem, a major contributing factor to why plexes are not falling in the wake of the FW nerf and even slowly continuing to rise. However, that's not necessarily a problem with high sec itself so much as it is the state CCP has left the mineral market in. If low end prices were "normal" - say, trit for 3.5, pyerite at 5, mex at 30 and isogen at 60 - then it would be more like 7-8m/hr, 11-13 with an orca booster, which is far more reasonable for an almost entirely afk activity. Not that you'll acknowledge this, of course, as any and all nerfs to highsec are unwarranted, in your mind. Well if the MACK yeids were doubled then I'd predict mineral prices would fall closer to 4 ISK so instead of a nerf what we'd really need is a buff to equalize the prices .So I acknowlege the mineral prices you espouse but would like to see it thru a buff instead of a nerf Meta-gaming for NULL SECCers: Whine on the forums until CCP gets sick of you and hands you everything you ask for just to shut you up. Typical NULL SEC arguement to NERF HI SEC-á-á http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csPPqdbcVwM
Harbingour EVE Corporation 690846961 11	Posted - 2012.11.21 02:21:00 - [17] - Quote [quote=Vaal Erit]Well this is awkward. CCP blamed FW for the rapid rise of PLEX and it has been 2 weeks and counting since the FW nerf and PLEX has been going up in price. Oops. /quote] Incorrect PLEX price spiked to about 650 million now we're at a shade under 600 million ISK Meta-gaming for NULL SECCers: Whine on the forums until CCP gets sick of you and hands you everything you ask for just to shut you up. Typical NULL SEC arguement to NERF HI SEC-á-á http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csPPqdbcVwM
GreenSeed 90	Posted - 2012.11.21 03:22:00 - [18] - Quote whats so surprising about it? its like asking why, if prices on water skyrocket for whatever reason, people would still consume it. plex is not something you can replace with something else, most plex buyers MUST consume that plex. the price point is really the point were people cancel the subscription. plex consumers will keep buying that plex regardless of the price, its the plex sellers the ones that are self-destructive, because once the buyers cancel the subscription plex will become a luxury item that single account superheroes will use seldomly if they have the spare isk for it. personally, we shouldn't be asking why are people buying so high, but mainly why aren't more individual plex sellers buying plex with irl money to sell in the market?. and by individual plex sellers im talking about the low/null pvper who allegedly shouldn't be bothering with menial tasks like "mining ISK". if they don't buy plex to re-sell, and we have to rely on the highsec noob who wants to fly an overpriced, overtanked deadspace battleship on a Lvl4 for our plex supply, then the whole plex model needs to be revisited. since it was supposed to be a game monetization model based around individual sellers, not on plex flippers who will only raise the price until they kill the market.
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking 925	Posted - 2012.11.21 04:52:00 - [19] - Quote Harbingour wrote: corestwo wrote: Funny you say that. I DO consider mackinaws in empire that make 14-18m/hr (more like 25+ when fleet boosted by an orca) to be a problem, a major contributing factor to why plexes are not falling in the wake of the FW nerf and even slowly continuing to rise. However, that's not necessarily a problem with high sec itself so much as it is the state CCP has left the mineral market in. If low end prices were "normal" - say, trit for 3.5, pyerite at 5, mex at 30 and isogen at 60 - then it would be more like 7-8m/hr, 11-13 with an orca booster, which is far more reasonable for an almost entirely afk activity. Not that you'll acknowledge this, of course, as any and all nerfs to highsec are unwarranted, in your mind. Well if the MACK yeids were doubled then I'd predict trit prices would fall closer to 4 ISK so instead of a nerf what we'd really need is a buff to equalize the prices .So I acknowlege the mineral prices you espouse but would like to see it thru a buff instead of a nerf I dislike all nerfs & especially hated the NULL anom nerf which caused the flooding of NULL alts into Incursions. NERFing is lazy designing & where in RL do we see nerfs? In RL you see weapon buffs... since when has say the attempts to nerf weapons worked: they all failed like laws to illegalize sawed off shot guns or belly bows !!!. I laughed at the attempt to nerf North Korea's nuclear weapon ambitions & predict Iran too will obtain nukes no matter what Isreal does. Yes of course. The current and wildly outlandish isk/hr you can get in highsec is, because it's currently how it is, how it always should be, and so we should seek to keep it in place even while reducing mineral prices. Yeah, no. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. fofofo
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 2096	Posted - 2012.11.21 06:06:00 - [20] - Quote corestwo wrote: Kills like that are hilarious, but irrelevant. They're too rare to have a meaningful impact on prices at all. I beg to differ. But then I speculatively trade and haul PLEX, so my perspective on the matter is different to someone who doesn't trade PLEX at all. The hundreds of PLEX bought for the alliance tournament impacted the market even if only psychologically: traders raised the prices in anticipation of huge demand. The prices of PLEX start falling the moment the special PLEX offers show up on the login screen ads. I am eternally thankful tht the people selling PLEX are keen to get a cash injection as quickly as possible. I am eternally grateful that the people scraping ISK together from month to month aren't willing to post a buy order. Because of the hand-to-mouth mentality of PLEX sellers and account PLEXers, speculators such as myself are guaranteed to make a profit by buying low, selling high. Thus the PLEXers are always buying from speculators' sell orders, the PLEX sellers are always selling to buy orders. The moment the PLEXers start getting wise and posting buy orders a day or two before their accounts are due, the moment PLEX sellers start posting sell orders and waiting ENTIRE HOURS for the PLEX to sell, the speculating game is over. But while there are people hauling dozens of PLEX in industrials (or taking their PLEX to market in ships flown by faction warfare characters, through FW systems) I know my ISK is safe in the PLEX Market. I'm flying my hauler full of PLEX around, humming Sweet Home Alabama, praying to Barnum and Murphy. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players

Silk daShocka Greasy Hair Club 115	Posted - 2012.11.21 07:53:00 - [21] - Quote So, I know that directly PLEX isn't an isk faucet, but indirectly could it be so? Let's say PLEX goes up 100 mil. Many people rely on lvl 4s and other isk faucets to make their money in Eve online. So now PLEX is 100 mil more expensive, how do you think these people will buy they're PLEX? One would assume they will run more missions and print more money. So, it's quite possible that when plex spikes in price, it creates indirect inflation in the economy. If this holds true, theoretically PLEX should never decrease in price much if at all (I'm talking averages here, not daily highs or lows), regardless of what increased the price in PLEX in teh first place such as high demand for FW, speculation or market manipulation. Just my thoughts.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 2001	Posted - 2012.11.21 08:09:00 - [22] - Quote corestwo wrote: Yes of course. The current and wildly outlandish isk/hr you can get in highsec is, because it's currently how it is, how it always should be, and so we should seek to keep it in place even while reducing mineral prices. - Incursions are nerfed enough that these days it's normal to pass through an incursion site for a week with nobody taking it. - L4 missions have been nerfed enough that now they yield about 1/3 of what they did 2 years ago. - Hi sec mining is relatively more profitable "per effort spent" than the above. Hi sec mining is not an ISK faucet though and is still a fraction of what you get farming nullsec anoms (maybe in a capital ship => that should be nerfed). Even then, I just tried hi sec minerals mining (scordite, plagioclase and trit) with 3 Macks yields about 200M per day (of 10+ hours) not per hour, with Orca buffs of course. The only mis-balance I can see ATM is caused by drone regions being turned to an ISK faucet, which turned the balance tables from excess of minerals supply to excess of ISK. Drone regions, unlike hi sec, can be rat botted with complete impunity and no "-geddon" hits them. Now, the mis-balance might even be a planned feature: most players don't even know what a faucet is, they just see "600M per money" and CCP earns more. An high ISK game also means, botting revenue rises but its business loses terrain vs other ways (expecially just buying the PLEX). An high ISK game also means, subbing more miner accounts (the only kind that can be easily "stacked" by individuals) => more CCP income. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 367	Posted - 2012.11.21 08:15:00 - [23] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Vaal Erit wrote: Well this is awkward. CCP blamed FW for the rapid rise of PLEX and it has been 2 weeks and counting since the FW nerf and PLEX has been going up in price. Oops. What will CCP blame it on next, Incursions again? Or maybe missions and afk mack ice mining are the culprit? Does CCP have the balls to go ahead with a 10% pay cut in all bounties? 700m per plex by years end? CCP did not nerf FW because it caused inflation but because it was a monkey mode to get humongous amounts of ISK. Mining does not compare I didn't say inflation and talking about inflation in EVE is pretty hilarious. All I'm talking about is PLEX price and yes I totally agree with you that gaining lp in FW was too crazy easy before and needed a nerf. Here is what CCP said "We believe getting these changes out early will go a long way towards shaking up and reviving the FW warzones while also reducing pressure on the economy (most notably the price of PLEX). We will keep observing the impact from all of these changes and will keep tweaking as needed to get the best results possible." Now if PLEX prices don't drop from this (which they haven't) then not only does CCP look like they have no idea what they are doing (business per usual) but they also nerfed certain militias without warning for no reason. I think it is an awkward situation, either CCP is incompetent in economic matters or they are purposely helping certain militias
Silk daShocka Greasy Hair Club 115	Posted - 2012.11.21 08:22:00 - [24] - Quote Vaal Erit wrote: Now if PLEX prices don't drop from this (which they haven't) then not only does CCP look like they have no idea what they are doing (business per usual) but they also nerfed certain militias without warning for no reason. Perhaps the goal of nerfing FW was only to prevent PLEX from rising more? I dont think it was ever stated that the nerf was meant to specifically lower PLEX prices. In the past 2 weeks or so minerals and salvage have both inflated at around 10%. Surely it's not to be expected that plex will drop when inflation occurs no? I'm fairly certain PLEX prices have been relatively stable since the nerf, aside from a small rise today of about 2.5% (590 to 605)
Ioci Bad Girl Posse 232	Posted - 2012.11.21 10:39:00 - [25] - Quote Plex is like EVE Gold. Everything in EVE is either over priced or useless. Market players know they aren't supposed to keep their ISK liquid and they put it in Plex because nothing else is safe. R.I.P. Vile Rat
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories 76	Posted - 2012.11.21 13:03:00 - [26] - Quote TriadSte wrote: ... I personally think that at over 600 million now, is far too high. The market does not care what you think is too high. TriadSte wrote: ... and enlighten myself a mere market amateur as to what's driving the sales of these things. Buyers do not care what you think is too high.
Mistah Ewedynao Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 91	Posted - 2012.11.21 14:43:00 - [27] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: corestwo wrote: Kills like that are hilarious, but irrelevant. They're too rare to have a meaningful impact on prices at all. I beg to differ. But then I speculatively trade and haul PLEX, so my perspective on the matter is different to someone who doesn't trade PLEX at all. The hundreds of PLEX bought for the alliance tournament impacted the market even if only psychologically: traders raised the prices in anticipation of huge demand. The prices of PLEX start falling the moment the special PLEX offers show up on the login screen ads. I am eternally thankful tht the people selling PLEX are keen to get a cash injection as quickly as possible. I am eternally grateful that the people scraping ISK together from month to month aren't willing to post a buy order. Because of the hand-to-mouth mentality of PLEX sellers and account PLEXers, speculators such as myself are guaranteed to make a profit by buying low, selling high. Thus the PLEXers are always buying from speculators' sell orders, the PLEX sellers are always selling to buy orders. The moment the PLEXers start getting wise and posting buy orders a day or two before their accounts are due, the moment PLEX sellers start posting sell orders and waiting ENTIRE HOURS for the PLEX to sell, the speculating game is over. But while there are people hauling dozens of PLEX in industrials (or taking their PLEX to market in ships flown by faction warfare characters, through FW systems) I know my ISK is safe in the PLEX Market. I'm flying my hauler full of PLEX around, humming Sweet Home Alabama, praying to Barnum and Murphy. Why would anyone HAUL a plex?
Bifordus Maximus MissoCorp 8	Posted - 2012.11.21 15:20:00 - [28] - Quote Mistah Ewedynao wrote: Why would anyone HAUL a plex? I thought about this myself. You could just contract it to who it needs to go to and they can accept it and use it without leaving their side of the galaxy with a small cost of 10,000 ISK If your doing it for your corp. That becomes tiresome when dealing with many people though. Of course it just comes to ease of use. Its easier to just give it to a person. But unfortunately a fraction of those people don't use logistics or common sense when traveling.
Demolishar United Aggression 442	Posted - 2012.11.21 15:23:00 - [29] - Quote I would love to know the total quantity of stockpiled PLEX in EVE. That's the main unknown here and has such a huge effect on what the future will hold.
Ioci Bad Girl Posse 234	Posted - 2012.11.21 15:45:00 - [30] - Quote Demolishar wrote: I would love to know the total quantity of stockpiled PLEX in EVE. That's the main unknown here and has such a huge effect on what the future will hold. I've often wondered if CCP had the wisdom to take PLEX money and put it in an 'ingame payroll account'. Treating each Plex like a written cheque and not pulling the money until the PLEX was cashed? In game, I have watched PLEX in the Forge for years and there has never been more than a thousand at any time. If there was a massive stash I think they would have made it to the market by now. Even if they didn't sell there should have been periods with huge Plex infusions. R.I.P. Vile Rat

Vera Algaert Republic University Minmatar Republic 438	Posted - 2012.11.21 15:56:00 - [31] - Quote Ioci wrote: Demolishar wrote: I would love to know the total quantity of stockpiled PLEX in EVE. That's the main unknown here and has such a huge effect on what the future will hold. I've often wondered if CCP had the wisdom to take PLEX money and put it in an 'ingame payroll account'. Treating each Plex like a written cheque and not pulling the money until the PLEX was cashed? at least not in their public accounting. I'm a NPC corp alt, any argument I make is invalid.
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking 925	Posted - 2012.11.21 16:30:00 - [32] - Quote Vaal Erit wrote: Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Vaal Erit wrote: Well this is awkward. CCP blamed FW for the rapid rise of PLEX and it has been 2 weeks and counting since the FW nerf and PLEX has been going up in price. Oops. What will CCP blame it on next, Incursions again? Or maybe missions and afk mack ice mining are the culprit? Does CCP have the balls to go ahead with a 10% pay cut in all bounties? 700m per plex by years end? CCP did not nerf FW because it caused inflation but because it was a monkey mode to get humongous amounts of ISK. Mining does not compare I didn't say inflation and talking about inflation in EVE is pretty hilarious. All I'm talking about is PLEX price and yes I totally agree with you that gaining lp in FW was too crazy easy before and needed a nerf. Here is what CCP said "We believe getting these changes out early will go a long way towards shaking up and reviving the FW warzones while also reducing pressure on the economy (most notably the price of PLEX). We will keep observing the impact from all of these changes and will keep tweaking as needed to get the best results possible." Now if PLEX prices don't drop from this (which they haven't) then not only does CCP look like they have no idea what they are doing (business per usual) but they also nerfed certain militias without warning for no reason. I think it is an awkward situation, either CCP is incompetent in economic matters or they are purposely helping certain militias Or, FW was just the most obvious thing driving their rise in prices or the thing driving the rise in prices the most quickly, and perhaps there are other things that also drive the rise in prices, just not quite as fast? Nah, clearly a conspiracy to favor one side of a minigame played by a tiny portion of the population. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. fofofo
Harbingour EVE Corporation 690846961 11	Posted - 2012.11.21 19:08:00 - [33] - Quote corestwo wrote: Harbingour wrote: It'd be tuff to blame Incursions. I'm willing to bet INCURSIONS per month ISK faucet fell 70-85% TO BETWEEN 1.1 & 2.2 TRILLION ISK PER MONTH. I sure hope that you mean the faucet only from incursions and not the total faucet here. Because if you mean the total faucet, then uh...lets just say you're wrong. Very, very wrong. FIXED. I do agree/think that the addition of drone bounties increased the TOTAL ISK faucets (possibly significantly) and bounties are far larger a percentage of the faucets now. I am very cursious if post Escalation Incursion nerf if WH blue loots increased from ~10 trillion to more then 12 trillion with the abandonment of Incrusions farmers migrating mostly to FW or WH? I miss CCP Diagoras Meta-gaming for NULL SECCers: Whine on the forums until CCP gets sick of you and hands you everything you ask for just to shut you up. Typical NULL SEC arguement to NERF HI SEC-á-á http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csPPqdbcVwM
Fractal Muse Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2012.11.21 19:30:00 - [34] - Quote Vaal Erit wrote: Now if PLEX prices don't drop from this (which they haven't) then not only does CCP look like they have no idea what they are doing (business per usual) but they also nerfed certain militias without warning for no reason. I think it is an awkward situation, either CCP is incompetent in economic matters or they are purposely helping certain militias I don't understand. PLEX prices don't drop from what price point? They were averaging 650 million mid-October. Today, there are plenty available at 600 million or less. If I check out PLEX prices right now I find them going from 590 million, between 591 million and 599 million (24 sell orders that I can see), and 600 million (15 sell orders). Perhaps if you included your start point for when you began tracking PLEX prices?
Ariel Dawn F9X 896	Posted - 2012.11.21 20:03:00 - [35] - Quote PLEX prices are going up due to inflation. 30 day GTCs used to cost 110m, PLEX initially cost ~250m and you'll see PLEX hit 1b at some point in the future.
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking 925	Posted - 2012.11.21 20:50:00 - [36] - Quote Harbingour wrote: corestwo wrote: Harbingour wrote: It'd be tuff to blame Incursions. I'm willing to bet INCURSIONS per month ISK faucet fell 70-85% TO BETWEEN 1.1 & 2.2 TRILLION ISK PER MONTH. I sure hope that you mean the faucet only from incursions and not the total faucet here. Because if you mean the total faucet, then uh...lets just say you're wrong. Very, very wrong. FIXED. I do agree/think that the addition of drone bounties increased the TOTAL ISK faucets (possibly significantly) and bounties are far larger a percentage of the faucets now. I am very cursious if post Escalation Incursion nerf if WH blue loots increased from ~10 trillion to more then 12 trillion with the abandonment of Incrusions farmers migrating mostly to FW or WH? I miss CCP Diagoras WH blue loots weren't ~10T. The total of everything NPCs bought was ~10T. WH loot was in the 6-7T range. Incursions were about 8-9. And the total for bounties was in the 32T range. There's no firm way to break that up by region or security status, but given that the top ranked Empire regions had ~10x the NPC kills as the top ranked nullsec regions, it's probably safe to say that the drone regions were not that large of an increase in the bounties faucet. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. fofofo
Harbingour EVE Corporation 690846961 15	Posted - 2012.11.22 08:10:00 - [37] - Quote corestwo wrote: WH blue loots weren't ~10T. The total of everything NPCs bought was ~10T. WH loot was in the 6-7T range. not according to this: http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html corestwo wrote: it's probably safe to say that the drone regions were not that large of an increase in the bounties faucet. It was not just the Drone regions that saw the drone bounty increase though HI SEC had quite afew drone missions I recall from my earliest days. I don't think it is safeto say anything & we are in a economy ino blackout right nowIMHO Meta-gaming for NULL SECCers: Whine on the forums until CCP gets sick of you and hands you everything you ask for just to shut you up. Typical NULL SEC arguement to NERF HI SEC-á-á http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csPPqdbcVwM
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 2002	Posted - 2012.11.22 13:55:00 - [38] - Quote corestwo wrote: WH blue loots weren't ~10T. The total of everything NPCs bought was ~10T. WH loot was in the 6-7T range. Incursions were about 8-9. And the total for bounties was in the 32T range. There's no firm way to break that up by region or security status, but given that the top ranked Empire regions had ~10x the NPC kills as the top ranked nullsec regions, it's probably safe to say that the drone regions were not that large of an increase in the bounties faucet. All it takes is a 10% ISK faucets increase to cause a mis-balance. Also, drone regions (as said above) is not the only "drone content". When I missioned I recall those quite stupid drone missions were 20%-30% of the whole kind of missions offered (varies by agent). Given the huge amount of hi sec missions are farmed, it quickly creates another large ISK faucet. Imo they should revert the drone changes and just increase the BPOs minerals requirements. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Malecite Aliastra Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2012.11.22 14:43:00 - [39] - Quote too many character resellers
Demolishar United Aggression 455	Posted - 2012.11.22 17:21:00 - [40] - Quote Malecite wrote: too many character resellers Don't think it's a big deal to be honest. There are too many (I am one of them), but I believe the character bazaar is in recession . Buyers won't pay enough because they are tight on isk due to price of PLEX to fund their accounts, sellers won't accept low offers due to extreme transfer fee. So very few characters are actually moving.

Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 2102	Posted - 2012.11.22 20:41:00 - [41] - Quote Vaal Erit wrote: Here is what CCP said "We believe getting these changes out early will go a long way towards shaking up and reviving the FW warzones while also reducing pressure on the economy (most notably the price of PLEX). We will keep observing the impact from all of these changes and will keep tweaking as needed to get the best results possible." Now if PLEX prices don't drop from this (which they haven't) then not only does CCP look like they have no idea what they are doing (business per usual) but they also nerfed certain militias without warning for no reason. The pressure on PLEX prices certainly reduced. During the stupidity that was Bunkers In Frigates, PLEX were rising in price far faster than they were before or after that mechanic was popularly exploited. Right now, PLEX are back to their "normal" rate of inflation. Where will PLEX prices stop? I would suggest that one price limit for PLEX is the amount of ISK that an AFK ice harvester can collect with relatively little effort in a month. At present an AFK ice harvester can generate about 70M ISK a day with little effort. Multiply that by 30 days and you have 2100M ISK. Thus one limit of PLEX prices is 2100M ISK. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Sizeof Void Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 296	Posted - 2012.11.22 23:25:00 - [42] - Quote I think we'll see PLEX prices drop and stay under 600M over the next couple of months. CCP has been timing their PLEX pack discounts to holidays, and we are entering a holiday season. The Thanksgiving (yeah, US holiday) PLEX sale is already up. I expect we'll see another sale around Christmas and yet another one around the New Year. There has also been a lot of blogging about the cost of PLEX, and from the comments, it seems that a significant number of players have been unsubbing or consolidating their PLEX-funded alt accounts, due to the cost of PLEX. Over the long haul, this isn't good for CCP, since this lowers demand, so I'm sure they are going to keep offering PLEX sales to keep the price near a point where (a) players will buy them to sub alt accounts, and (b) speculators will buy and hold them in hopes of the prices going higher. Remember that every PLEX sold is RL money in the bank for CCP, so it is obviously to their advantage to manage the in-game price such that demand/supply ratios are optimal to generate the maximum number of RL PLEX transactions per month. On a side note, I'm sort of surprised that CCP hasn't introduced more activities which consume in-game PLEX. For example, they could run regular PLEX auctions or lotteries, using limited-edition ships as prizes. Very few limited-edition ships, such as AT tournament prizes, are ever actually used in PVP, so this sort of thing would not be seen as P2W.
Kara Books Deal with IT. 237	Posted - 2012.11.23 00:14:00 - [43] - Quote This is starting to remind me of Invention chance, stealth nerf's
enterprisePSI 132	Posted - 2012.11.23 05:44:00 - [44] - Quote Oh man, i forgot to sell @610, jobs suck, money sucks, RL sucks, etc emorage. The tears of the many, outweight the tears of the few. Or the one. enterprise-psi-¬ I made tweet, Y U NO FOLLOW!!!
Riddick Liddell Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2012.11.23 15:17:00 - [45] - Quote Down 12 mill over night. We will see what they look like on Monday. (New 2 Plex promo)
Fractal Muse Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 35	Posted - 2012.11.23 18:09:00 - [46] - Quote Riddick Liddell wrote: Down 12 mill over night. We will see what they look like on Monday. (New 2 Plex promo) To put it into perspective, on the 23rd of Nov 2012, PLEX is currently available starting at 571 million. In JITA there are multiple PLEXes available below 585 million (5 so far) and many more just over 585 million. I am really hoping that the people who have PLEX as an 'investment' will start selling them off as well. If that starts happening I think we'll see PLEX prices drop down below 500. Edited to add that at least one 'investor' seems to be trying to liquidate their PLEX inventory since there is a single sell order of 29 PLEXes at 585,919,999.00 ISK available at Jita. I suspect if I looked at the market buy and sell prices that there are some people trying to buy the incoming PLEX on the market to relist them for a profit - lots of sell orders of 5 to 19 PLEX at a time. There looks like there are enough new PLEX coming onto the market to foil this.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 2011	Posted - 2012.11.24 11:06:00 - [47] - Quote Still not convinced why I should ever invest in PLEX. An openly and grandly manipulated market, including by CCP, who decide to put their thresolds and that can make the whole market in 1 hour. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Grombutz Treasures Collectors Solar Citizens 13	Posted - 2012.11.24 16:31:00 - [48] - Quote Plex prices do not spike because of inflation. It's just what happens if a clever trader meets a stupid plexer.
Riddick Liddell Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2012.11.24 17:39:00 - [49] - Quote Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Still not convinced why I should ever invest in PLEX. An openly and grandly manipulated market, including by CCP, who decide to put their thresolds and that can make the whole market in 1 hour. Agreed but it's the only thing that makes Plex a true market in EVE for most of us. (the human factor) They play a game with a few hundred people and we can ride in and out and make 2 or 3 billion in a month with out ever leaving Jita IV 4. Unless CCP go to the trouble of checking every asset for Plex and do history checks to see where those Plex came from and when, they are just playing a pissing contest with that top 100 people.
Sizeof Void Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 296	Posted - 2012.11.24 21:30:00 - [50] - Quote Fractal Muse wrote: I am really hoping that the people who have PLEX as an 'investment' will start selling them off as well. If that starts happening I think we'll see PLEX prices drop down below 500. Possible, but somewhat doubtful. From checking around various forums and blogs, it looks like 500 is the magic resub number for the majority of players who have recently unsubbed PLEX-funded alt accounts. Thus, as the price approaches 500, these players will be watching the market more closely - trying to decide whether it is low enough to resub their alts. In most cases, they aren't going to see much of a difference between 500 and 505, or even 515 - so, they will start buying up PLEX and push the prices back up. While the price might drop below 500 occasionally, due to a stupid seller, it is more likely to stay above that point. It might be safe to assume that most of the PLEX-subbed players will buy as many PLEX as possible around the 500 point, with the assumption that prices will go up again during the next year. This increases demand, which pushes prices up, but, supply is likely to be increased as well, since Christmas and New Year cash gifts and bonuses may be spent on buying PLEX to sell in-game. This will deplete, ofc, and prices should start to rise again after the holiday season. The long-term PLEX investor will ride out the holiday season, buying rather than selling. However, if CCP can keep the prices around 500-525, via PLEX pack discounts, through January or so, they should get back a decent percentage of the recently unsubbed PLEX-funded alt accounts. It wouldn't hurt their quarterly financial reports, either. But, this is all just random speculation, ofc... :)

Sizeof Void Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 296	Posted - 2012.11.24 21:36:00 - [51] - Quote One other thing to note about PLEX investment & speculation: Keep in mind that invested PLEX can be also used to create alt accounts, for the purpose of training up toons for sale, such as supercap pilots. I personally do not buy/sell toons, so I can't say what the profit margin on PLEX-funded toons is (or is not), but it is something which might be worth considering.
Demolishar United Aggression 467	Posted - 2012.11.24 22:18:00 - [52] - Quote Sizeof Void wrote: I personally do not buy/sell toons, so I can't say what the profit margin on PLEX-funded toons is (or is not), but it is something which might be worth considering. With the removal of the PLEX reward for buddy invites the potential profit is very low and it is no longer a viable income source.
Steve Ronuken Fuzzwork Enterprises 795	Posted - 2012.11.24 22:19:00 - [53] - Quote You can't look at plex prices, to determine if there's inflation in Eve. Because they're unlike /every/ other good. You can't ramp up plex production within Eve. It all comes down to how much RL money people are willing to spend on it. You really need to define a basket of goods, to determine if there's inflation. Good which are produced in game, which don't have a totally inelastic supply. Look at popular T2 modules. many of them have fallen in price, over the last 6 months. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract.
Sizeof Void Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 296	Posted - 2012.11.24 23:18:00 - [54] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: Where will PLEX prices stop? I would suggest that one price limit for PLEX is the amount of ISK that an AFK ice harvester can collect with relatively little effort in a month. At present an AFK ice harvester can generate about 70M ISK a day with little effort. Multiply that by 30 days and you have 2100M ISK. Thus one limit of PLEX prices is 2100M ISK. Most AFK ice harvesters are going to be running on an alt account, to support at least one main account - ie. you are paying for two accounts. So, the actual limit on the PLEX price, based on ice, would be 1/2 of 2100M, or 1050M - roughly 1B ISK. However, running an AFK ice harvester every day is also likely to get you tagged by CCP Sreegs' secret bot detector.
Sizeof Void Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 296	Posted - 2012.11.24 23:39:00 - [55] - Quote Steve Ronuken wrote: You really need to define a basket of goods, to determine if there's inflation. Good which are produced in game, which don't have a totally inelastic supply. That is difficult to do, since mining produces a free, renewable, and unlimited supply of materials, which simply isn't realistic. NPC drops of free meta items also skew the numbers - almost as badly as did the old fixed-price NPC manufactured items. The availability of high meta items has a direct effect on T2 module prices, and the availability of low meta items has a direct effect on T1 module prices (actually, the low meta glut has pretty much nerfed T1 module manufacturing into oblivion). Add the fact that many items are produced by a limited number of manufacturers, most of whom are also engaged in price manipulation (yes, monopolies can and do exist, despite claims to the contrary). I just don't think you can find a "basket of goods" in-game which would meet the requirements of a RL economic model for inflation.
Sizeof Void Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 296	Posted - 2012.11.24 23:44:00 - [56] - Quote Demolishar wrote: Sizeof Void wrote: I personally do not buy/sell toons, so I can't say what the profit margin on PLEX-funded toons is (or is not), but it is something which might be worth considering. With the removal of the PLEX reward for buddy invites the potential profit is very low and it is no longer a viable income source. Good to know. I didn't realize that the PLEX reward for buddies was removed. BTW - is there any incentive for inviting buddies to play? Except for watching them get pwned as noobs, ofc. :)
Sans Sonic Leon EVE University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2012.11.25 01:19:00 - [57] - Quote I still remember when plex was 350M isk when I just started playing
corestwo Goonfleet Investment Banking 930	Posted - 2012.11.25 03:21:00 - [58] - Quote Sizeof Void wrote: However, if CCP can keep the prices around 500-525, via PLEX pack discounts, through January or so, they should get back a decent percentage of the recently unsubbed PLEX-funded alt accounts. It wouldn't hurt their quarterly financial reports, either This wouldn't actually work. Sales tend to have diminishing returns. Sans Sonic Leon wrote: I still remember when plex was 350M isk when I just started playing Son, when I started playing, PLEX didn't exist, and a month of gametime was 90m. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. fofofo
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. 1175	Posted - 2012.11.26 14:47:00 - [59] - Quote Sizeof Void wrote: Demolishar wrote: Sizeof Void wrote: I personally do not buy/sell toons, so I can't say what the profit margin on PLEX-funded toons is (or is not), but it is something which might be worth considering. With the removal of the PLEX reward for buddy invites the potential profit is very low and it is no longer a viable income source. Good to know. I didn't realize that the PLEX reward for buddies was removed. BTW - is there any incentive for inviting buddies to play? Except for watching them get pwned as noobs, ofc. :) If they sub with a PLEX, you get a free month of account time. If they sub with real money, you can get either a PLEX or a free month. Its only PLEX for PLEX that went away. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. 1175	Posted - 2012.11.26 21:28:00 - [60] - Quote Mara Rinn wrote: corestwo wrote: Kills like that are hilarious, but irrelevant. They're too rare to have a meaningful impact on prices at all. I beg to differ. But then I speculatively trade and haul PLEX, so my perspective on the matter is different to someone who doesn't trade PLEX at all. The hundreds of PLEX bought for the alliance tournament impacted the market even if only psychologically: traders raised the prices in anticipation of huge demand. The prices of PLEX start falling the moment the special PLEX offers show up on the login screen ads. I am eternally thankful tht the people selling PLEX are keen to get a cash injection as quickly as possible. I am eternally grateful that the people scraping ISK together from month to month aren't willing to post a buy order. Because of the hand-to-mouth mentality of PLEX sellers and account PLEXers, speculators such as myself are guaranteed to make a profit by buying low, selling high. Thus the PLEXers are always buying from speculators' sell orders, the PLEX sellers are always selling to buy orders. The moment the PLEXers start getting wise and posting buy orders a day or two before their accounts are due, the moment PLEX sellers start posting sell orders and waiting ENTIRE HOURS for the PLEX to sell, the speculating game is over. But while there are people hauling dozens of PLEX in industrials (or taking their PLEX to market in ships flown by faction warfare characters, through FW systems) I know my ISK is safe in the PLEX Market. I'm flying my hauler full of PLEX around, humming Sweet Home Alabama, praying to Barnum and Murphy. I PLEX my accounts and I set buy orders. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/

Eugene Kerner TunDraGon 213	Posted - 2012.11.26 21:51:00 - [61] - Quote TriadSte wrote: What exactly is causing the demand for buyers? when they're spiking so high? I understand supply/demand but why is the demand so great right now with these horrible prices? I personally think that at over 600 million now, is far too high. I remember moaning though when they were 380 million. I understand that you cant just dump these on the market and make the prices bomb but Id for sure like some market expert to drop by this thread and enlighten myself a mere market amateur as to what's driving the sales of these things. Just wait until you can fly carrier with bs 4.... People will buy A LOT of plexes... "Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
volhar V Enterprises 3	Posted - 2012.11.28 14:53:00 - [62] - Quote Annoucements like this one should help keep prices down: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73566 Oh wait...
DarthNefarius Minmatar Heavy Industries 448	Posted - 2012.11.28 20:19:00 - [63] - Quote Eugene Kerner wrote: TriadSte wrote: What exactly is causing the demand for buyers? when they're spiking so high? I understand supply/demand but why is the demand so great right now with these horrible prices? I personally think that at over 600 million now, is far too high. I remember moaning though when they were 380 million. I understand that you cant just dump these on the market and make the prices bomb but Id for sure like some market expert to drop by this thread and enlighten myself a mere market amateur as to what's driving the sales of these things. Just wait until you can fly carrier with bs 4.... People will buy A LOT of plexes... Tieracide of CAPs??? You've got a looooong wait until CAPs will get touched IMHO. Hope you are correct though that players will break out the plastic for PLEX then though volhar wrote: Annoucements like this one should help keep prices down: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73566 Oh wait... Edit: of course that's only going to be a small amount of PLEX, but if they go this way what's next? Eve store merchandise for PLEX? Well I like the idea, I think most of the isk space rich players that have 10' to 100's ofPLEX will jump on this... rest of Eve scrapping for PLEX? We'll see. "Having a bad day? It takes 42 muscles to frown, but only 4 to pullthe trigger of a decent sniper rifle." - Dr. John D. Taylor


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