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Interceptor: MWD or AB?

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Vicker Lahn'se	Posted - 2005.04.26 16:31:00 - [1] Do most interceptor pilots use afterburners or micro warp drives?
Ortu Konsinni	Posted - 2005.04.26 16:34:00 - [2] Most use MWDs but an AB is a nice thing to use sometimes.
Antoinette Civari	Posted - 2005.04.26 16:36:00 - [3] There`s no reason why a ceptor pilot should use an afterburner. Ever. The ceptor`s defence is its speed.
theblaze	Posted - 2005.04.26 16:36:00 - [4] AB won't allow you to outrun all missiles - so I would stick to the MWD
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.04.26 16:43:00 - [5] Edited by: Gariuys on 26/04/2005 16:44:13 mwd while on the topic. Wonder what people where complaining about cap wise. My stilleto runs mwd 2x scrambler and web just fine. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
xaioguai	Posted - 2005.04.26 17:05:00 - [6] Originally by: Gariuys Edited by: Gariuys on 26/04/2005 16:44:13 mwd while on the topic. Wonder what people where complaining about cap wise. My stilleto runs mwd 2x scrambler and web just fine. I think signature radus is more of concern in tight orbit. Just lost a claw to a harpy the other day because his rail track better than my 200mm ac
Saerid	Posted - 2005.04.26 17:07:00 - [7] On the MWD vs AB issue: One thing worth considering now is target painters, especially if they become more commonly used. One or two T2 painters with good skills make for fairly fatal increase in sig radius.
Jack Blank	Posted - 2005.04.26 17:09:00 - [8] Originally by: xaioguai Just lost a claw to a harpy the other day because his rail track better than my 200mm ac also harpys can tank really well, i wouldnt attack a af in an inty without backup.
xaioguai	Posted - 2005.04.26 17:14:00 - [9] Originally by: Jack Blank Originally by: xaioguai Just lost a claw to a harpy the other day because his rail track better than my 200mm ac also harpys can tank really well, i wouldnt attack a af in an inty without backup. I think i can own that harpy if i have AB on board....oh well...
Uglious	Posted - 2005.04.26 17:16:00 - [10] Originally by: Antoinette Civari There`s no reason why a ceptor pilot should use an afterburner. Ever. The ceptor`s defence is its speed. There is now: A tempest with a rack full of target painters. With mwd on, if you get painted, you show up bigger than a fleet of BS's would. Till that bug is fixed, mwd on anything could make you a big fat target.
Hoozin	Posted - 2005.04.26 17:21:00 - [11] With Decent skills the speed boost still outweighs the sig penalty of the MWD so from my opinion: Long-Range => AB Close-Range => MWD --------------------------------- The forums are so much smoother if you just don't read any posts by [UDIE]. More specifically Shin Ra's.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.04.26 17:35:00 - [12] Before target painters were introduced, the only choice was MWD. Dictating range is everything for an interceptor pilot, and therefore speed is king. Since the introduction of the target painters, you could make an argument for fitting an AB on an ceptor for the purpose of tackling turret BSs. Missiles would be a very severe problem for you however. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
ElCapitan	Posted - 2005.04.26 17:38:00 - [13] definately MWD, you have to be able to approach your target fast.
Liet Traep	Posted - 2005.04.26 17:53:00 - [14] target painters are really nasty though.
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.04.26 18:09:00 - [15] Originally by: xaioguai Originally by: Gariuys Edited by: Gariuys on 26/04/2005 16:44:13 mwd while on the topic. Wonder what people where complaining about cap wise. My stilleto runs mwd 2x scrambler and web just fine. I think signature radus is more of concern in tight orbit. Just lost a claw to a harpy the other day because his rail track better than my 200mm ac That's just poor piloting on your part. What happened is simple, you orbit with mwd running, but never reach your top speed, half at best, with the sig increase, that means you're easily twice as easy to hit, then without the mwd. While your own speed is messing with your autocannons tracking... there's a lesson here. Don't keep the mwd running once in orbit unless there's big missiles involved. And NEVER EVER underestimate the tracking of small long range guns ( killed a fair share of ships that way ) ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.04.26 18:11:00 - [16] Originally by: xaioguai Originally by: Jack Blank Originally by: xaioguai Just lost a claw to a harpy the other day because his rail track better than my 200mm ac also harpys can tank really well, i wouldnt attack a af in an inty without backup. I think i can own that harpy if i have AB on board....oh well... Probably since that makes you twice as hard to hit ( easily, it's very likely to be more ) instead of twice as easy like your mwd example. Big difference, enough to make the rails not track you. But with only a ab, you would get owned on the approach in all likelyhood. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
xaioguai	Posted - 2005.04.26 18:32:00 - [17] Edited by: xaioguai on 26/04/2005 18:37:39 Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: xaioguai Originally by: Gariuys Edited by: Gariuys on 26/04/2005 16:44:13 mwd while on the topic. Wonder what people where complaining about cap wise. My stilleto runs mwd 2x scrambler and web just fine. I think signature radus is more of concern in tight orbit. Just lost a claw to a harpy the other day because his rail track better than my 200mm ac That's just poor piloting on your part. What happened is simple, you orbit with mwd running, but never reach your top speed, half at best, with the sig increase, that means you're easily twice as easy to hit, then without the mwd. While your own speed is messing with your autocannons tracking... there's a lesson here. Don't keep the mwd running once in orbit unless there's big missiles involved. And NEVER EVER underestimate the tracking of small long range guns ( killed a fair share of ships that way ) Agree.......cheap lesson tho, just another ship lost
Montero	Posted - 2005.04.26 20:34:00 - [18] Originally by: Antoinette Civari There`s no reason why a ceptor pilot should use an afterburner. Ever. The ceptor`s defence is its speed. that.
Sorja	Posted - 2005.04.26 21:09:00 - [19] Originally by: ElCapitan definately MWD, you have to be able to approach your target fast. Yep. It's a very fun sport to go tackle snipers 100km away. I don't know if that would even be possible with an AB.
Deepeh	Posted - 2005.04.26 22:30:00 - [20] Never use anything other than a MWD on my interceptors... actually I don't even buy tech 1's but I go for tech 2's straight away :)
Olivin	Posted - 2005.04.26 22:41:00 - [21] Originally by: Vicker Lahn'se Do most interceptor pilots use afterburners or micro warp drives? Personally I prefer to use AB because MWD kills whole idea of small-hard-to-hit interceptor. Yes, speed is a king, but size is a queen. Olivin
Nytemaster	Posted - 2005.04.26 23:34:00 - [22] Originally by: Hoozin With Decent skills the speed boost still outweighs the sig penalty of the MWD so from my opinion: Long-Range => AB Close-Range => MWD I disagree. If you are looking for a setup to tackle with, a MWD is the only thing you can catch up to if you are at long range. Example: Last night, two ceptors and two BS jump a couple BS from about 30km out. Having only the AB II allows them to get out before getting within 7500m of my -4 scramble setup. My max speed was around 1500m/s with the AB II. Although it's good if you plan on being a damage dealer and don't want to get hit against big ships, it really sucks when you are tackling. Point is a MWD is sometimes the only thing between a successful tackle and no tackle. Nytemaster
Tobias Raddick	Posted - 2005.04.27 00:00:00 - [23] I'd avoid MWDs on a 'ceptor like the plague. They all but completely negate the 'hard-to-hit' aspects of the 'ceptor, making ABs (or with high skills over-sized ABs) the professional's choice. As has already been noted, dictating range is vital to a 'ceptor pilot who wants to survive combat.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.04.27 01:22:00 - [24] Yep, and by using an AB you sacrifice the choice of range to my MWD. gg. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.04.27 07:32:00 - [25] Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 27/04/2005 07:32:13 Fitted up my "Stiletto" with all "Populsion Mods" in lows. Then AB II in med. It zoooooooooooooooooooms! Just most don't want to add stuff like that. Rather have "Tanking", "Cap" or "Gunnery/Damage" support instead. Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri -The Frig-
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.04.27 09:40:00 - [26] Are you people seriously saying that you use an AB on an inty for normal combat? Are you insane? You will die to any inty using a MWD. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Deepeh	Posted - 2005.04.27 10:15:00 - [27] Originally by: Julien Derida Are you people seriously saying that you use an AB on an inty for normal combat? Are you insane? You will die to any inty using a MWD. That's debatable, if you web him, scramble him and put a nosferatu on him, odds are that you will obliterate him in a second. :)
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.04.27 11:27:00 - [28] Edited by: Julien Derida on 27/04/2005 11:30:50 Originally by: Deepeh That's debatable, if you web him, scramble him and put a nosferatu on him, odds are that you will obliterate him in a second. :) How so? The inty with the MWD will be able dictate the range of the engagement in the vast majority of circumstances. He will only be in nos range and web range if he wants to be there. You can therefore assume that he's set up to fight at that range. It is therefore an even fight. The cap advantage that the AB gives is too small to matter in such a short engagement. To summarise: Close Range AB Inty Vs Close Range MWD Inty = Even fight Close Range AB Inty Vs Long Range MWD Inty = Dead AB Inty Long Range AB Inty Vs Close Range MWD Inty = Dead AB Inty Long Range AB Inty Vs Long Range MWD Inty = Even fight Of course, the MWD inty can also choose not to engage in all these situations. Interceptors are aggressive ships. You should be forcing the fight to happen on your terms. If you want to sit back and let others dictate the range of the fight, you would be better off in an AF. Edit: I don't meant to rant here . If people want to fly interceptors with ABs then more power to them. It makes my life easier . ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Karmic	Posted - 2005.04.27 11:53:00 - [29] Edited by: Karmic on 27/04/2005 12:00:35 Originally by: Julien Derida Edited by: Julien Derida on 27/04/2005 11:30:50 Originally by: Deepeh That's debatable, if you web him, scramble him and put a nosferatu on him, odds are that you will obliterate him in a second. :) How so? The inty with the MWD will be able dictate the range of the engagement in the vast majority of circumstances. He will only be in nos range and web range if he wants to be there. You can therefore assume that he's set up to fight at that range. It is therefore an even fight. The cap advantage that the AB gives is too small to matter in such a short engagement. To summarise: Close Range AB Inty Vs Close Range MWD Inty = Even fight Close Range AB Inty Vs Long Range MWD Inty = Dead AB Inty Long Range AB Inty Vs Close Range MWD Inty = Dead AB Inty Long Range AB Inty Vs Long Range MWD Inty = Even fight Of course, the MWD inty can also choose not to engage in all these situations. Interceptors are aggressive ships. You should be forcing the fight to happen on your terms. If you want to sit back and let others dictate the range of the fight, you would be better off in an AF. Edit: I don't meant to rant here . If people want to fly interceptors with ABs then more power to them. It makes my life easier . Jules I will introduce you to my claw with an ab fitted - - - - - - - - -
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.04.27 11:59:00 - [30] If missiles are a concern then MWD. But I have had great success using AB intys against cruisers and BS. Medium and Large guns can simply not hit you with such a low sig radius and a 20k orbit. I have even jumped in on sniping gankageddons and been able to AB back to the gate before they can hit more then once or twice (for crappy damage). --------------------------------------------------
MavricktheGreat	Posted - 2005.04.27 14:31:00 - [31] So, what do you guys think about using a 10mn afterburner II on a interceptor?
Pagefault	Posted - 2005.04.27 17:10:00 - [32] Originally by: MavricktheGreat So, what do you guys think about using a 10mn afterburner II on a interceptor? Your orbit speed will be desatrous due to the agility penalty. Same for acceleration. That was THE mod for intys before the ab nerf, but now... no go
Ethan Tomlinson	Posted - 2005.04.27 20:05:00 - [33] Originally by: Julien Derida Edited by: Julien Derida on 27/04/2005 11:30:50 Originally by: Deepeh That's debatable, if you web him, scramble him and put a nosferatu on him, odds are that you will obliterate him in a second. :) How so? The inty with the MWD will be able dictate the range of the engagement in the vast majority of circumstances. He will only be in nos range and web range if he wants to be there. You can therefore assume that he's set up to fight at that range. It is therefore an even fight. The cap advantage that the AB gives is too small to matter in such a short engagement. To summarise: Close Range AB Inty Vs Close Range MWD Inty = Even fight Close Range AB Inty Vs Long Range MWD Inty = Dead AB Inty Long Range AB Inty Vs Close Range MWD Inty = Dead AB Inty Long Range AB Inty Vs Long Range MWD Inty = Even fight Of course, the MWD inty can also choose not to engage in all these situations. Interceptors are aggressive ships. You should be forcing the fight to happen on your terms. If you want to sit back and let others dictate the range of the fight, you would be better off in an AF. Edit: I don't meant to rant here . If people want to fly interceptors with ABs then more power to them. It makes my life easier . this guy is brilliant smartest of u all. only real reason i can see for putting an afterburner on an inty is to fit a 400mm plate and thats only if u cant fit a mwd and the plate.
ElDiablo	Posted - 2005.04.27 20:11:00 - [34] MWD ftw
Balanced	Posted - 2005.04.27 22:03:00 - [35] Originally by: xaioguai Originally by: Jack Blank Originally by: xaioguai Just lost a claw to a harpy the other day because his rail track better than my 200mm ac also harpys can tank really well, i wouldnt attack a af in an inty without backup. I think i can own that harpy if i have AB on board....oh well... U never ever attack an AF in an interceptor :S U will be toast even if u fight against an lvl 1 AF pilot with only using t1 guns
Olivin	Posted - 2005.04.27 22:16:00 - [36] Originally by: Julien Derida How so? The inty with the MWD will be able dictate the range of the engagement in the vast majority of circumstances. With MWD sig penalty and gimped setup you should be dead long before you decide what range you should fight this time. Although for tackling purposes MWD 4tw. Olivin
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.04.28 00:12:00 - [37] Originally by: Olivin With MWD sig penalty and gimped setup you should be dead long before you decide what range you should fight this time. Although for tackling purposes MWD 4tw. Olivin Here's a couple of facts for you: Fact no. 1 MWD II requires 18MW and 25tf AB II requires 13MW and 15tf So, by using an AB over a MWD you save 5MW and 10TF. That is not enough to fit an extra damage mod or a decent armour plate. You could fit a named small armour rep, but that is going to be of minimal use in such a short fight. The MWD does of course give you a 25% cap penalty, but interceptor fights are too short for cap to matter. Conclusion:Running a MWD does not gimp your setup. Fact no. 2 AB II Speed Boost = 168.75% (w/ Accel Control 5) MWD II Speed Boost = 687.5% (w/ Accel Control 5) MWD II Sig Penalty = 500% Now, the ability of a gun to track a target is effected by the quantity speed/sig_radius. Therefore, we can calculate a number that tells us how hard the ship is to track. Lets call this number 'normalised speed'. For the AB: Normalised Speed = (Speed + 1.6875Speed)/Sig = 2.6875 (Speed/Sig) i.e. the ship is 2.6875 times harder to track For the MWD: Normalised Speed = (Speed + 6.875Speed)/(Sig + 5Sig) = 1.3125* (Speed/Sig) Therefore, in ideal circumstances a ship with AB is around twice as hard to track as one with MWD. Now, within web range this does not matter. If both targets are webbed, gun tracking will not be an issue. At long range, the pilot with the AB has a tracking advantage. How much of a difference in DoT this makes depends on how tracking deficient the guns being used are. Ironically, the MWD pilot can negate the AB pilots small advantage at this range by simply turning off his MWD. Conclusion: The MWD sig penalty is not as important as you imply. If you still don't believe me, why not put your money where your mouth is? Name a time and I will fight you 1v1 in an interceptor. You run an AB and I'll run a MWD. We'll see who wins . ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Exarch	Posted - 2005.04.28 00:47:00 - [38] ABs might gain alot of popularity once they mess around with missiles.
U'puauht	Posted - 2005.04.28 01:11:00 - [39] Generally, MWD + 'ceptor = win. Target Painters interfere heavily with any ships using MWDs though, at least at the moment and for the time being. ______________________________________________________ Deep Space Services : Risk is our business, security our service.
Olivin	Posted - 2005.04.28 07:53:00 - [40] Originally by: Julien Derida Conclusion:Running a MWD does not gimp your setup. Conclusion: The MWD sig penalty is not as important as you imply. If you still don't believe me, why not put your money where your mouth is? Name a time and I will fight you 1v1 in an interceptor. You run an AB and I'll run a MWD. We'll see who wins . What sort of money you are talking about? Olivin
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.04.28 08:19:00 - [41] Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 28/04/2005 08:19:20 1 - Intys arn't designed just for inty vs inty combat. 2 - AB's can be used in pvp. This means you can kill opponents as well NPCS with it fitted. 3 - It's not always about the damage mod. 4 - Tighter orbit is a better orbit. 5 - Dono just had to add 5. Im leet! Nevermind Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri -The Frig-
Suicide Keen	Posted - 2005.04.28 08:27:00 - [42] Edited by: Suicide Keen on 28/04/2005 08:46:14 Originally by: Julien Derida Originally by: Olivin With MWD sig penalty and gimped setup you should be dead long before you decide what range you should fight this time. Although for tackling purposes MWD 4tw. Olivin Here's a couple of facts for you: Fact no. 1 MWD II requires 18MW and 25tf AB II requires 13MW and 15tf So, by using an AB over a MWD you save 5MW and 10TF. That is not enough to fit an extra damage mod or a decent armour plate. You could fit a named small armour rep, but that is going to be of minimal use in such a short fight. The MWD does of course give you a 25% cap penalty, but interceptor fights are too short for cap to matter. Conclusion:Running a MWD does not gimp your setup. Fact no. 2 AB II Speed Boost = 168.75% (w/ Accel Control 5) MWD II Speed Boost = 687.5% (w/ Accel Control 5) MWD II Sig Penalty = 500% Now, the ability of a gun to track a target is effected by the quantity speed/sig_radius. Therefore, we can calculate a number that tells us how hard the ship is to track. Lets call this number 'normalised speed'. For the AB: Normalised Speed = (Speed + 1.6875Speed)/Sig = 2.6875 (Speed/Sig) i.e. the ship is 2.6875 times harder to track For the MWD: Normalised Speed = (Speed + 6.875Speed)/(Sig + 5Sig) = 1.3125* (Speed/Sig) Therefore, in ideal circumstances a ship with AB is around twice as hard to track as one with MWD. Now, within web range this does not matter. If both targets are webbed, gun tracking will not be an issue. At long range, the pilot with the AB has a tracking advantage. How much of a difference in DoT this makes depends on how tracking deficient the guns being used are. Ironically, the MWD pilot can negate the AB pilots small advantage at this range by simply turning off his MWD. Conclusion: The MWD sig penalty is not as important as you imply. If you still don't believe me, why not put your money where your mouth is? Name a time and I will fight you 1v1 in an interceptor. You run an AB and I'll run a MWD. We'll see who wins . Who has ceptor vs ceptor battles anyway, that's not the question? I'll take the 1mn after burner II setup in any fleet engagement over your MWD fleet engagement. If I am within 100km of a battleship fleet in the AB I am nearly unhittable. The only ship I am then afraid of is a well trained destroyer pilot, or an assault frig. I can hold my own better against the MWD ceptor than the other ships mentioned as he is an easier target for me than I am to him. He will have to slow way down just to hit me as my signature radius is much lower, negating his MWD. Sure, a MWD and transverse velocity cancel each other out, but that puts you back where you started with your base speed. The microwarp doesn't give you any advantage whatsoever for not getting hit as the sig radius penalty negates the added transverse speeds. The only benefit a MWD does do is give you a quicker approach to targets. Using a MWD to evade targets to long range is suicidal. An AB II gives you ~150% boost making you 2 1/2 times less trackable, especially from long range when signature radius + transverse means life or death. Facts: An interceptor with a mwd running is no different than an interceptor without a mwd running in terms of trackability and hit ability. An interceptor with an AB running is more difficult to hit than an interceptor without any propulsion mods. Plug in the numbers on this site if you do not believe me. I've been blown up in a ceptor at 150km by a BS with a transverse of nearly 2000 m/s. I can now transverse 1000 m/s and have a better chance to avoid hits at this range. I can also approach my target, albeit slower but safer from within 100km without worry as long as I keep the transverse above 400ish.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.04.28 12:18:00 - [43] Originally by: Suicide Keen Who has ceptor vs ceptor battles anyway, that's not the question? I'll take the 1mn after burner II setup in any fleet engagement over your MWD fleet engagement. If I am within 100km of a battleship fleet in the AB I am nearly unhittable. In regular PvP I have far more ceptor vs ceptor fights than I do large fleet battles. But that is a moot point I suppose, different strokes for different folks. An AB may be more useful in fleets to avoid turret BS fire. It will also leave you more vulnerable to missiles. Quote: Sure, a MWD and transverse velocity cancel each other out, but that puts you back where you started with your base speed. The microwarp doesn't give you any advantage whatsoever for not getting hit as the sig radius penalty negates the added transverse speeds. The only benefit a MWD does do is give you a quicker approach to targets. Using a MWD to evade targets to long range is suicidal. An AB II gives you ~150% boost making you 2 1/2 times less trackable, especially from long range when signature radius + transverse means life or death. Facts: An interceptor with a mwd running is no different than an interceptor without a mwd running in terms of trackability and hit ability. An interceptor with an AB running is more difficult to hit than an interceptor without any propulsion mods. Plug in the numbers on this site if you do not believe me. I've been blown up in a ceptor at 150km by a BS with a transverse of nearly 2000 m/s. I can now transverse 1000 m/s and have a better chance to avoid hits at this range. I can also approach my target, albeit slower but safer from within 100km without worry as long as I keep the transverse above 400ish. Did you even read the post of mine that you quoted? The MWD speed bonus and sig bonus do not cancel out. The speed bonus is increased by the Acceleration Control skill, not to mention that for the MWD II the base speed increase is larger than the sig increase. MWDs make you harder to hit, just not as hard as ABs. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.04.28 12:21:00 - [44] Originally by: Olivin What sort of money you are talking about? Olivin Well, being proved right would be enough for me. However, I will bet on it too if you like. 10mil perhaps? ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2005.04.28 18:14:00 - [45] Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 28/04/2005 18:16:35 AB works well vs. NPC that don't have the intelligence to fit an MWD. Also good for deadspace complexes and missions. For everything else its the MWD. In frigate combat there is no safer bet than long range MWD. That does not mean it will always win, but it does mean that it will rarely if ever loose. For tackling its the MWD. You can't close fast enough without it. Interceptors get a signature bonus precisely for this fact(to counter MWD penalty). MWD is also good for bustin a gate camp. It will take 2-3 webs to slow you down, and they will be sig boostin anyway. MWD frigate is about 1/2 the sig of a cruiser, and about 10x as fast. etc... ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.

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