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Tisiph0ne	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:34:00 - [31] All guns shoot too far if you ask me. Shooting a rifle accurately at a target moving many hundred of meters per second over even a km should be tricky enough. I think there should be more penalties to actual damage over great ranges. I think target locking should take longer the farther away things are. I think the playing field should be bigger in order to deal with all these long range guns. Then we can ban instas and no one will get instaganked because you have to travel under impulse to intercept anyone. The ranges of guns should be more precise. Most every gun can be gotten "under" as they say, but this margin has gotten too small. Getting under a gun should be much closer to the optimal. This would be bad for projectile guns, but good for lasers I guess. I wish development focused more on this little "bump" in the hitting and damage bell curve. The sweet spot on the bell curve should not expand so dramatically on especially long range guns. And it should be even tinier versus smaller sig radius vessels. Maneuverability and strategic deployment of smaller vessels, especially in larger mixed groups, needs to be possible. We need more roles and battleships are usurping them all. I just want making frigates or cruisers your specialty look smart or sensible. My other account has Amarr BS 5 and you know what, I hate flying battleships. Battleships are stupid. Give us the tools or the circumstances to point and laugh at them for once. Please oh please just make frigates faster and I don't mean by just 50%. Frigates need speed, lots of speed so that BS and cruisers can be allowed to operate as they need to without totally making other classes irrelevant.
Eira Eldan	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:38:00 - [32] You know the community is infested with people who have no idea what so ever when they take threads like this seriously. Either they are dumb(possibly), or, more likely, they just see too many "nerf this, nerf that" threads and so they end up expecting all of them to be made by people who actually mean it. I move for a vote to have any and all topics regarding balance locked, flogged, defenstrated and dumped in a jetcan in Jove space. Or at least most of them. As in, every topic except those going "nerf jove". I can agree to that.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:44:00 - [33] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/05/2005 21:33:35 Except the smaller ships who need lube, because they have great difficulty now fitting small launchers and small guns. And they're mixed ships, so they're going to have to throw things like speed and surviveability out of the window to fit both. Translation: I'm upset because I might have to drop the rocket launcher, MWD II or 400mm plate from my Claw ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Selim	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:47:00 - [34] Hey, its damn hard to fit minnie tech 2 frigs! Although the claw isn't that bad actually.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:50:00 - [35] Edited by: Julien Derida on 04/05/2005 21:51:40 The Claw is one of the easiest T2 frigs to fit! Try sticking a 400mm plate and blasters on a Taranis... I'd agree about the other T2 Minnie frigs though. The Wolf is a bugger to fit. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:52:00 - [36] Originally by: Weirda The minmatar haven't been 'overboosted'... please list all the 'boosts' that have been 'consecutive' (i.e. they actually stack on one another)? The reason Matari ftw now is that for the last year we been making our ships equal to others while they sucked, and now that our ships are equal, we're just better pilots... pwnt ------------------- Quote: Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
Khaldorn Murino	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:53:00 - [37] Dear lord, we finally get some of our ships up to somewhat of a par with everyone else. And you all start crying. Have you any idea how many skills it takes to fly a minmatar ship with any degree of success? No they are far from uber at all. Which you should all be well aware of. This thread really must be a joke. - "Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally." - Unknown Warrior
Letifer Deus	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:53:00 - [38] Originally by: fairimear whaaaaaammmmmmmmmbulance (j/k) /me makes siren sounds WOOOOO oooo WOOOO oooo WOOOO oooo!!! I am the OG PIIIIIMP
Epofhis	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:58:00 - [39] Originally by: Julien Derida Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/05/2005 21:33:35 Except the smaller ships who need lube, because they have great difficulty now fitting small launchers and small guns. And they're mixed ships, so they're going to have to throw things like speed and surviveability out of the window to fit both. Translation: I'm upset because I might have to drop the rocket launcher, MWD II or 400mm plate from my Claw allow a better trans Translation of Julien: Now I will be able to pwn sheet in my crow from 80k, and almost insta damage light missles.. .w00t1001011!! Taranis is a fine bird, its the only bird I have second thoughts about engaging in my claw. Claw still needs a mapc to fit a decent loadout there are you happy now, my sig fits every rule. Now, no delete me pls, I promise to be good!!!11010101!!
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:59:00 - [40] Edited by: Julien Derida on 04/05/2005 21:59:55 Originally by: Epofhis allow a better trans Translation of Julien: Now I will be able to pwn sheet in my crow from 80k, and almost insta damage light missles.. .w00t1001011!! Taranis is a fine bird, its the only bird I have second thoughts about engaging in my claw. Claw still needs a mapc to fit a decent loadout LOL. I can't even fly a Crow. I fly a Claw since the Crusader got nerfed into mediocrity. :P ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Horatio Starkiller	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:00:00 - [41] yeah wooOOO nerf the minnie ships, I have 21mil+ skill points and as long as a raven pilot has less than 3mil skillpoints i can prolly beat them. /sarcasm -----------
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:02:00 - [42] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/05/2005 22:06:06 Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/05/2005 22:04:59 Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/05/2005 22:03:27 Originally by: Julien Derida Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/05/2005 21:33:35 Except the smaller ships who need lube, because they have great difficulty now fitting small launchers and small guns. And they're mixed ships, so they're going to have to throw things like speed and surviveability out of the window to fit both. Translation: I'm upset because I might have to drop the rocket launcher, MWD II or 400mm plate from my Claw Shows how much you know you little ***. I allready had to revert to a T1 MWD since they nerfed the T2. Uses too much grid and cap. I'm looking at either giving up ANY chance of fighting a ship with 2+ missile launchers or a good chunk of my firepower now. This WOULDN'T be an issue if the named micro aux power relays dropped, ffs. And if the T2 Minmatar frigs take it hard, frankly that's minor compared to what it's doing to the T1* Minmatar frigs. (Epofhis - I'm resigned to using a MAPC, but as I say it SUCKS the named ones don't drop. And personally I kill Tarranis and AF's on a regular basis but I know I'm hardly the average Claw pilot either. If I'M looking on this kind of thing with alarm...) "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:06:00 - [43] Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 04/05/2005 22:10:27 T2 1400's are slightly overpowered. Everything else seems fine to me. 1400's need a slight decrease in damage modifier with a slight increase in rate of fire. Megathrons with T2 425's way out damage a tempest over time, but the one hit damage potential of a tempest is what completely destroys ship balance because it can one shot cruisers. If the one hit damage potential of 1400's was slightly reduced, while maintainin the same damage over time, everything would be fine. The stiletto is fine as is, its a nice EW platform and a great tackler, but if its just fitted to tackle it has a very hard time against other inty's. The claw would be super overpowered except for its crappy targeting range...which is enough to keep the claw balanced as is. Also, I don't see how missles are getting nerfed. They will be better in fleets, they will be better on frigates (crow has been boosted if you ask me). The only thing that will hurt is that raven's won't be able to insta-poon inty's like they can now...boo hoo.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:13:00 - [44] Originally by: Maya Rkell Shows how much you know you little ***. I allready had to revert to a T1 MWD since they nerfed the T2. Uses too much grid and cap. I'm looking at either giving up ANY chance of fighting a ship with 2+ missile launchers or a good chunk of my firepower now. This WOULDN'T be an issue if the named micro aux power relays dropped, ffs. And if the T2 Minmatar frigstake it hard, frankly that's minor compared to what it's doing to the T1* Minmatar frigs. Bloody hell! Someones a bit touchy! Essentially I am right though. Your **ed off because the increased rocket launcher grid use **s up your setup. Fair enough. I don't find it that convenient either. It's not the end of the world though. When it come down to it, don't you think fitting a full offense and defender capability on the Claw for single digit pg use was a tad overpowered? Isn't that why it's been by far the best close-range interceptor for a while now? ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:15:00 - [45] Edited by: Meridius on 04/05/2005 22:20:23 Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 04/05/2005 22:10:27 T2 1400's are slightly overpowered. Everything else seems fine to me. 1400's need a slight decrease in damage modifier with a slight increase in rate of fire. Megathrons with T2 425's way out damage a tempest over time, but the one hit damage potential of a tempest is what completely destroys ship balance because it can one shot cruisers. If the one hit damage potential of 1400's was slightly reduced, while maintainin the same damage over time, everything would be fine. I don't see anything wrong with that, it's unique and just damn cool. It requires good skills as well so yeah, i think it's fine. (holy ****, i've been browsing the forums all day and i just noticed the missile changes thread) ________________________________________________________
Hyey	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:45:00 - [46] Edited by: Hyey on 04/05/2005 22:45:51 I really hope you are joking.. so ill take it as a joke. Has to be... 50% more pg on a deimos?... the vagabond is better than everything else? This has to be some sort of sherade lol ~~ Hyey I just payed 15 dollars this month just to be able to respond on the forums... stupid cancellation error.
Isonkon Serikain	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:47:00 - [47] Levin, this is a whine post if I've ever seen one. To the guy who watnts to lower the per shot damage of tempests: Why bring the minmatar guns to what rails are, they are fine the way they are. And by the way, you need tons of skills to one shot a cruiser, and a bit of luck to boot. You are talking about about doing 3000 Damage in 1 volley. Even for the top pilots its not a guarantee. You CAN take out a cruiser in 2-3 volleys from an apoc tho, that is much easier, and no cruiser can warp out that fast. I recently started training minnie because I traded my scorp for a tempest after the EW changes (I don't want to train for those). I have decent gunnery skills, nothing spectacular, but I can tell you that I have higher DOT using lasers on a poc or geddon. I have several million sp in gunnery, but I figured I need to sink in at least a couple months training specifically for artillery so I can do those hard hitting volleys on the tempest... Clearly, its something you earn, not an unfair advantage minmatar has. I would still get owned by an apoc pilot who has the same SP as me. Further, in fleet battles, DOT is STILL king. Artilleries have the lowest normalized damage. -inties: I dont think they are unbalanced I could go on but its futile... -
Isonkon Serikain	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:48:00 - [48] NOt to mention...missiles are going to own... WTB crow bpo.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:52:00 - [49] Originally by: Julien Derida Originally by: Maya Rkell Shows how much you know you little ***. I allready had to revert to a T1 MWD since they nerfed the T2. Uses too much grid and cap. I'm looking at either giving up ANY chance of fighting a ship with 2+ missile launchers or a good chunk of my firepower now. This WOULDN'T be an issue if the named micro aux power relays dropped, ffs. And if the T2 Minmatar frigstake it hard, frankly that's minor compared to what it's doing to the T1* Minmatar frigs. Bloody hell! Someones a bit touchy! Essentially I am right though. Your **ed off because the increased rocket launcher grid use **s up your setup. Fair enough. I don't find it that convenient either. It's not the end of the world though. When it come down to it, don't you think fitting a full offense and defender capability on the Claw for single digit pg use was a tad overpowered? Isn't that why it's been by far the best close-range interceptor for a while now? Don't "translate" what I say then. If you wanna know what I meant, ask. And yes, it's a second big nerf (the T2 MWD one hit HARD) on a ship which for many pilots isn't worthwhile. I KNOW how much player skill it involves. And tbh as I said without defenders and against missiles which can pound me from range, I'd really truly screwed. So I have to step ALL my guns down, giving up a fair chunk of firepower. Which screws me again gun inties and the defenders arn't THAT good... So I might as well just not fight missile ships. Ever. And given the number of people flying em after the patch, might as well go grab one myself. The missile changes as proposed are BROKEN. That's why I'm fighting them. If named MAPC's dropped, it'd be okay. But they don't. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
BigJim Beef	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:57:00 - [50] The real reason that Matari ships are suddenly 'overpowered' is that for the last six months anyone wanting to fly one has had to train all related skills to 4 or 5 to be even competitive ... so now when they get boosted you have people with maxed skills reaping the rewards.
Neon Genesis	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:59:00 - [51] Originally by: Levin Cavil Currently only the minmatar ships are really worth flying. Don't agree with this Vaga is very good yeh __ There, i just contributed nothing to your thread
fairimear	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:09:00 - [52] Edited by: fairimear on 04/05/2005 23:14:11 this thread is a joke. a mega will out snipe and out dmg a tempest with far worse skills. why people going omg minmatar uber. because the few pilots that stuck at projectiles when they was so so bad now have them at lvl5 because that was needed for them to even do the slightest thing pre-buff. also during the bad times they could buy their named guns far cheaper than any one else so many have multiple sets. i doub't 90% the people here have there large gun's to t2 same as the min pilots who are pwning. u wana see a travisty look at the mega with t2 425mm rails that can out dmg a medium raven tank from 130km. i have a machariel and still would rather take a mega for pvp on sisi where combat has no cost and can be fitted to the max. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world Domination.
laserc	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:18:00 - [53] And an Armageddon with tech II beams outdamages all the long range ships
Cummilla	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:29:00 - [54] Really surprised to see a whine post like this from Cavill. What's next on the nerf block then? Your and my beloved megathron? So what we just got a little shot in the arm PG wise with the thron, so now the minnie's get screwed(again, after just having been "fixed").....then the circle jerk pivots and who's next? And where does it end? In reality the playerbase is the pivotman in this sick little game of russian circle jerkage. I say "stop the madness."
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:29:00 - [55] Edited by: Julien Derida on 04/05/2005 23:30:59 Originally by: Maya Rkell Don't "translate" what I say then. If you wanna know what I meant, ask. It was meant as a playful dig, hence the winking smiley. No offense meant. I already knew exactly what you were upset about, because I have exactly the same problem. Quote: And yes, it's a second big nerf (the T2 MWD one hit HARD) on a ship which for many pilots isn't worthwhile. I KNOW how much player skill it involves. And tbh as I said without defenders and against missiles which can pound me from range, I'd really truly screwed. So I have to step ALL my guns down, giving up a fair chunk of firepower. Which screws me again gun inties and the defenders arn't THAT good... So I might as well just not fight missile ships. Ever. And given the number of people flying em after the patch, might as well go grab one myself. The missile changes as proposed are BROKEN. That's why I'm fighting them. If named MAPC's dropped, it'd be okay. But they don't. This is where I have to disagree with you. Even without defenders the close-range Claw is still a very fine ship. Try setting up a Taranis or Crusader with the kind of tank you can fit on a Claw. It simply isn't possible. Neither the Taranis nor the Crusader even has the option of fitting defenders either. I understand your frustration. It is irritating to see a wonderful ship nerfed as a side-effect of balancing elsewhere. It happened to my Crusader, and now it is happening again to my chosen replacement inty, the Claw. It's irritating, but it's life. I'm just thankful that the Claw maintains the majority of it's usefullness, unlike the post-nerf Crusader. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:31:00 - [56] Edited by: Dionysus Davinci on 04/05/2005 23:35:38 Originally by: fairimear Edited by: fairimear on 04/05/2005 23:14:11 this thread is a joke. a mega will out snipe and out dmg a tempest with far worse skills. Yeah, the last time I faced a tempest he ran away with 1/4 armor left and not even a 1/4 of my shields where peeled away. Of course this was a pre-made over 120km+ range BM so I outranged him hard. Problem is, I don't have warp in at 150kms to 100kms button so unless I pre-set BMs around celestial objects (Which I am often forced to do) that out range agrument means jack ****.
Levin Cavil	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:32:00 - [57] Edited by: Levin Cavil on 04/05/2005 23:33:08 @selim Railathron > Tempest <-- LoLz if the rails ever track long enough to hit. Blasterthron > autotempest <-- autocannons can hit like 2x as far as blasters plus the tempest is faster and tanks better Raven > autotempest <-- not after missile nerf Ishtar > vagabond <-- drones suck Deimos > Muninn <-- munin has higest dot of all ass cruisers. Thorax > anything <-- dual mwd rupture anyone? You can't think of a single uber minnie ship because they aer ALL uber. So yeah, die. <-- plz don't make personal threats, I will be forced to send Wrangler after you. "(lol at vagabond comment too - its fast but not much else, its made of cardboard and is armed with peashooters!)" "(lol x 100 at missile nerf comment - have you seen the missile thread? those things are uber!)" ROFLcakes ------------------------------ <Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:36:00 - [58] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/05/2005 23:37:48 Julien Derida, That's not true. I've killed a Tarranis with a 400mm plate and a small T2 rep. Think he was packing electrons, but it was still a hell of a fight. Heck, I peeled apart a CROW the other day and it had an 400mm armour plate. And sorry, I disagree that it remains useful without being able to TRY and fight other inties. Missile-wielding inties have just become UBER with these changes as stated (sure the stats are broken right now. That'll change...) . So I have no choice but to match them to evolve. (that's the old tired statement isn't it? So I'll EVOLVE to the flavour of the week) The Crusader's problem is inherent in lasers having a hard time melting armour... "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Necrologic	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:38:00 - [59] Edited by: Necrologic on 04/05/2005 23:38:57 Originally by: Levin Cavil Edited by: Levin Cavil on 04/05/2005 23:33:08 @selim Railathron > Tempest <-- LoLz if the rails ever track long enough to hit. Blasterthron > autotempest <-- autocannons can hit like 2x as far as blasters plus the tempest is faster and tanks better Raven > autotempest <-- not after missile nerf Ishtar > vagabond <-- drones suck Deimos > Muninn <-- munin has higest dot of all ass cruisers. Thorax > anything <-- dual mwd rupture anyone? You can't think of a single uber minnie ship because they aer ALL uber. So yeah, die. <-- plz don't make personal threats, I will be forced to send Wrangler after you. "(lol at vagabond comment too - its fast but not much else, its made of cardboard and is armed with peashooters!)" "(lol x 100 at missile nerf comment - have you seen the missile thread? those things are uber!)" ROFLcakes 1) Rails track better than artillery 2) Mega tanks better and tempest is only slightly faster 3) Missle damage isn't changing vs other battleships 4) The Ishtar out tanks the vagabond, and drones do not suck. 5) Muninn cannot tank for crap, and because of this close range muninns tend to die to deimos, but it can go either way. 6) Did you miss that dual mwd was removed? So, in summery, good joke thread :D _______________________________________________________ Et nunc, reges, intelligite, erudimini, qui judicati terram.
Balistic Void	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:56:00 - [60] Claw is overpowered. Can't comment on other minmatar ships. Claw could wtfpwn the Crusader even before the pulse nerf. Only ceptor 1v1 I've lost was versus a taranis, during which I screwed up my maneuvre and got webbed.

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