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Levin Cavil	Posted - 2005.05.04 19:27:00 - [1] I think its time that CCP took a look at racial balance. With the upcoming missile nerf the minmatar will be way ahead of everyone else. Currently only the minmatar ships are really worth flying. The vagabond is extrememly fast and overpowered. No other assault cruiser stands a chance. In order to bring things more in line I suggest CCP roll back the pulse nerf on medium guns, increase damage and tracking on medium rails and add 50% PG to the Diemos. With that the other assault cruisers might be able to compete. Another problem with the minmatar is the 1400II I know people whined for months and finally got them buffed but they are way overpowered now, a 20% reduction in dmg mod would be good. Finally the Minmatar frigates. There are so many reasons they are overpowered I can't even go into it now. The biggest problem is probably that the stiletto is the best tackler, this is unfair, either remove one of its mids or add 2 to the crow to balance things out. I'll probably get flamed for this but its the truth. ------------------------------ <Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
feroci0us	Posted - 2005.05.04 19:30:00 - [2] i concur with the 1400mm ii statement. Proud Member of the Fountain Alliance
Kurenin	Posted - 2005.05.04 19:30:00 - [3] Yes. I suggest the Apocalypse have 40% more pg, as it currently sucks ass. I also want 8 highs and 8 turrets on a Dominix, as Gallente are clearly ment to be the turret race. ----- [22:02] <Kurenin> anyhow, on a more serious note, what did you think of those ideas? [22:02] <Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming Inactivity wins you.
Soren	Posted - 2005.05.04 19:30:00 - [4] _________________________________________________________
Levin Cavil	Posted - 2005.05.04 19:32:00 - [5] Edited by: Levin Cavil on 04/05/2005 19:33:54 Originally by: Kurenin Yes. I suggest the Apocalypse have 40% more pg, as it currently sucks ass. I also want 8 highs and 8 turrets on a Dominix, as Gallente are clearly ment to be the turret race. Don't even get me started on the poor Gallente ships. The minmatar have the best close and long range guns with NO CAP USE. It's totally unbalanced, they need to add cap to the Mega to make up for the loss from mwd and also take off the sig radius penalty. Buffing the Apoc PG would be good as a start but a reduction in beam grid reqs would also be welcome. ------------------------------ <Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
SirSpectre	Posted - 2005.05.04 19:33:00 - [6]
fairimear	Posted - 2005.05.04 19:34:00 - [7] whaaaaaammmmmmmmmbulance (j/k) no minmatar are fine. they just nerfed the others to doom. sucks. some 1 remove that nerf bat from tomb. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world Domination.
keepiru	Posted - 2005.05.04 19:41:00 - [8] Edited by: keepiru on 04/05/2005 19:42:15 And please give the tormentor a 50% dmg bonus to make it competitive with other frigates. edit and 5 hi slots, pls :) ------------- Originally by: Gnauton It was purely accidental. We really don't have a sense of humour at all.
The Enslaver	Posted - 2005.05.04 19:41:00 - [9] Agreed. Minmatar are overpowered to an insane degree now, when compared to Amarr. Amarr have been nerfed to hell, and Minmatar have had so many consecutive boosts that it looks like some Dev got the 'Jovian' and 'Minmatar' categories mixed up. -------- FireFoxx80: If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
Nafri	Posted - 2005.05.04 19:47:00 - [10] hõõ, what the hell? dunno, but our guys in throns do more damage then our guys in tempests Wanna fly with me?
pardux	Posted - 2005.05.04 19:48:00 - [11] Originally by: The Enslaver Agreed. Minmatar are overpowered to an insane degree now, when compared to Amarr. Amarr have been nerfed to hell, and Minmatar have had so many consecutive boosts that it looks like some Dev got the 'Jovian' and 'Minmatar' categories mixed up. Jovian and minmatar = allies so minmatar should be ³ber \o/ Fluffy carebear (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
Messerschmitt facility	Posted - 2005.05.04 19:53:00 - [12] I say that the balances are now totaly screwed... they want to balance somthing, they unbalance 4 more, they want to balance again somthing, they again unbalance 4 more... this is ridiculous _________________________________ A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking...
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2005.05.04 19:57:00 - [13] Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 04/05/2005 20:02:54 Don't count your chickens before they hatch. there is currently no missile nerf. And if CCP has a head, they will only nerf Missile skill tree, and not the missiles themselves. T2 1400s are a reward well deserved. they are not overpowered. Drop the damage 20% and you will still loose if your using bad tactics. 1400s have no change vs. a close range ship. Fight the ones you can win... The Stiletto is the best tackler. And that is a reason for a nerf? That thing is paper thin. Quit Playa' hatin' I can't comment on the vagabond cause i cant fly one. But the Cyclone ain't the bees knees. (did I get that right?) Not to mention the recent shield nerf is hurtin Minmatar since we use shields quite a bit. 90% of my ships had to be refit...Im currently training weapons upgrades tryin to get my good fittings back. /me starts sprinkling gasol^B^B^B^B^B butane on Levin. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Rodney Munch	Posted - 2005.05.04 20:01:00 - [14] Quote: Finally the Minmatar frigates. There are so many reasons they are overpowered I can't even go into it now. 30 minutes ago in irc, you claimed that claws sucked total ass.
Damien Vox	Posted - 2005.05.04 20:07:00 - [15] Edited by: Damien Vox on 04/05/2005 20:11:18 This thread also totally leaves out the fact now with the new missile skills the Minmatar have to not only train specialization in gunnery but also in missiles to be of any use what so ever now at all. I do hope this thread is a joke because if it isn't someone needs a serious amount of sleep or to lay off the grass and I do mean the smokin' kind. We have our strengths but it would be nice to know what exactly our ships are meant to do tank or gank...not exactly the easiest thing to choose from when it does come to those who like to run missions.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.04 20:08:00 - [16] Originally by: The Enslaver Minmatar have had so many consecutive boosts I'm fine with minmatar but this is the only point i will agree with. Minmatar have gotten boost over boost and the worst part is minmatards are still whining for some reason that is completely beyond me. The latest boost was the EM shift with lasers, that 80%/92.5% EM res there interceptors/hacs have just became even more effective then they already were. ________________________________________________________
pardux	Posted - 2005.05.04 20:14:00 - [17] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: The Enslaver Minmatar have had so many consecutive boosts I'm fine with minmatar but this is the only point i will agree with. Minmatar have gotten boost over boost and the worst part is minmatards are still whining for some reason that is completely beyond me. The latest boost was the EM shift with lasers, that 80%/92.5% EM res there interceptors/hacs have just became even more effective then they already were. the armor resistances for minmatar t2 ships suck against anything except amarr , only the shield resistances are good. and the minmatar assault frigates are not that good. the wolf has both less cpu AND pg than the harpy. and 55 less base cap! Fluffy carebear (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
Rasta Rocketman	Posted - 2005.05.04 20:15:00 - [18] Originally by: Nafri hõõ, what the hell? dunno, but our guys in throns do more damage then our guys in tempests Agreed. I think things are pretty well balanced as-is. _______________________________________________ "I spilled spot remover on my dog....now he's gone." -Steven Wright
Nasty Rash	Posted - 2005.05.04 20:31:00 - [19] Edited by: Nasty Rash on 04/05/2005 20:33:54 Drugs are bad Hhmmm k... things are peachy as is... DEATHE TO THE GALLENTE
Weirda	Posted - 2005.05.04 20:42:00 - [20] The minmatar haven't been 'overboosted'... please list all the 'boosts' that have been 'consecutive' (i.e. they actually stack on one another)? The reason Matari ftw now is that for the last year we been making our ships equal to others while they sucked, and now that our ships are equal, we're just better pilots... -- Thread Killer <END TRANSMISSION>
DUFFMANX	Posted - 2005.05.04 20:47:00 - [21] Originally by: Weirda The minmatar haven't been 'overboosted'... please list all the 'boosts' that have been 'consecutive' (i.e. they actually stack on one another)? The reason Matari ftw now is that for the last year we been making our ships equal to others while they sucked, and now that our ships are equal, we're just better pilots... Weirda 4tw (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.05.04 20:53:00 - [22] im abit upset that my nossing/cap death setup dont work agsint gankapests as they dont need cap to fire guns (ok 1 cap or something). waaaaaaaaaaa ___________________________________ Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante Gallante
laserc	Posted - 2005.05.04 20:56:00 - [23] Tbh I think the Battleship balance is pretty good as is. Tempests actually do a fair bit less DoT then a megathron or armageddon, even with good skills. I do agree beams need a grid reduction though.
Shocky	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:03:00 - [24] Edited by: Shocky on 04/05/2005 21:03:42 How about no, minmator have ONE role where there equal to other races and thats fitting for max damage and kicking ass.. you take that away from them and they have nothing. But if you think nothing equals balance then ok.
ebil yar	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:09:00 - [25] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: The Enslaver Minmatar have had so many consecutive boosts I'm fine with minmatar but this is the only point i will agree with. Minmatar have gotten boost over boost and the worst part is minmatards are still whining for some reason that is completely beyond me. The latest boost was the EM shift with lasers, that 80%/92.5% EM res there interceptors/hacs have just became even more effective then they already were. Boost after Boost? Minmator got nerfed stupid and have only just got boosted to bring them up to par with the rest of the ships. But of course being a retard you probably didnt know that.
Vashna	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:10:00 - [26] The question is not who is the best, what race is the most powerful... Question is that rAce must be different and fight proficiecy must not be the only argument... OMG If a day I feel that all is balanced I will leave this game immediately... Where is the challenge if you know that in some way your enemy is balaced with you? Difficult to exaplain but: IF I CHOICE TO PLAY A RABBIT, I WANT TO BE A RABBIT, NOT A BALANCED RABBIT. it is my opinion.
Selim	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:13:00 - [27] Edited by: Selim on 04/05/2005 21:13:57 Too funny! /sarcasm Anyway... lets see about overpowered. Railathron > Tempest Blasterthron > autotempest Raven > autotempest Ishtar > vagabond Deimos > Muninn Thorax > anything I can't for the life of me think of a single uber minmatar ship. The gallente have the deimos and ishtar, the caldari have the raven, amarr have (or had) the zealot and gankageddon... and the minmatar? They have the tempest... but its not any better than a megathron - its not as good, actually, since it does less damage, is alot harder to fit and its not as good up close. So yeah, die. (lol at vagabond comment too - its fast but not much else, its made of cardboard and is armed with peashooters!) (lol x 100 at missile nerf comment - have you seen the missile thread? those things are uber!)
Cosmic Dragon	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:20:00 - [28] yea mimitar ships are overpowered give the apoc a 40% cap recharg bonus per level and then ill be happy
Marcus Aurelius	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:22:00 - [29] Edited by: Marcus Aurelius on 04/05/2005 21:23:45 Edited by: Marcus Aurelius on 04/05/2005 21:22:08 Well, untill tonight I was planning on expanding my untill now dedicated caldari covops/inty/af/hac character (not this one), to include projectiles and minmatar ships because of the specific strangths some of those have. Of course, the missile change announcement made that cerberus look alot more desirable now Anyway, have to disagree, minmatar are pretty well balanced atm. High damage salvos for lower d.o.t. at range. Short range BS weapons that can operate outside of web range. Going to take a relatively large part of the lub that missiles are about to get. The speed advantage in all ships, which is pretty decent as we all know, see the vagabond, one of my favourites. All in all, I say we wait and see. I see nothing warranting change atm, at least nothing major. And minor things I'd choose to ignore for now to let those number crunchers at ccp direct their efforts to pre-balancing some new content or something.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:33:00 - [30] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/05/2005 21:33:35 Except the smaller ships who need lube, because they have great difficulty now fitting small launchers and small guns. And they're mixed ships, so they're going to have to throw things like speed and surviveability out of the window to fit both. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Tisiph0ne	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:34:00 - [31] All guns shoot too far if you ask me. Shooting a rifle accurately at a target moving many hundred of meters per second over even a km should be tricky enough. I think there should be more penalties to actual damage over great ranges. I think target locking should take longer the farther away things are. I think the playing field should be bigger in order to deal with all these long range guns. Then we can ban instas and no one will get instaganked because you have to travel under impulse to intercept anyone. The ranges of guns should be more precise. Most every gun can be gotten "under" as they say, but this margin has gotten too small. Getting under a gun should be much closer to the optimal. This would be bad for projectile guns, but good for lasers I guess. I wish development focused more on this little "bump" in the hitting and damage bell curve. The sweet spot on the bell curve should not expand so dramatically on especially long range guns. And it should be even tinier versus smaller sig radius vessels. Maneuverability and strategic deployment of smaller vessels, especially in larger mixed groups, needs to be possible. We need more roles and battleships are usurping them all. I just want making frigates or cruisers your specialty look smart or sensible. My other account has Amarr BS 5 and you know what, I hate flying battleships. Battleships are stupid. Give us the tools or the circumstances to point and laugh at them for once. Please oh please just make frigates faster and I don't mean by just 50%. Frigates need speed, lots of speed so that BS and cruisers can be allowed to operate as they need to without totally making other classes irrelevant.
Eira Eldan	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:38:00 - [32] You know the community is infested with people who have no idea what so ever when they take threads like this seriously. Either they are dumb(possibly), or, more likely, they just see too many "nerf this, nerf that" threads and so they end up expecting all of them to be made by people who actually mean it. I move for a vote to have any and all topics regarding balance locked, flogged, defenstrated and dumped in a jetcan in Jove space. Or at least most of them. As in, every topic except those going "nerf jove". I can agree to that.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:44:00 - [33] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/05/2005 21:33:35 Except the smaller ships who need lube, because they have great difficulty now fitting small launchers and small guns. And they're mixed ships, so they're going to have to throw things like speed and surviveability out of the window to fit both. Translation: I'm upset because I might have to drop the rocket launcher, MWD II or 400mm plate from my Claw ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Selim	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:47:00 - [34] Hey, its damn hard to fit minnie tech 2 frigs! Although the claw isn't that bad actually.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:50:00 - [35] Edited by: Julien Derida on 04/05/2005 21:51:40 The Claw is one of the easiest T2 frigs to fit! Try sticking a 400mm plate and blasters on a Taranis... I'd agree about the other T2 Minnie frigs though. The Wolf is a bugger to fit. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:52:00 - [36] Originally by: Weirda The minmatar haven't been 'overboosted'... please list all the 'boosts' that have been 'consecutive' (i.e. they actually stack on one another)? The reason Matari ftw now is that for the last year we been making our ships equal to others while they sucked, and now that our ships are equal, we're just better pilots... pwnt ------------------- Quote: Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
Khaldorn Murino	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:53:00 - [37] Dear lord, we finally get some of our ships up to somewhat of a par with everyone else. And you all start crying. Have you any idea how many skills it takes to fly a minmatar ship with any degree of success? No they are far from uber at all. Which you should all be well aware of. This thread really must be a joke. - "Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally." - Unknown Warrior
Letifer Deus	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:53:00 - [38] Originally by: fairimear whaaaaaammmmmmmmmbulance (j/k) /me makes siren sounds WOOOOO oooo WOOOO oooo WOOOO oooo!!! I am the OG PIIIIIMP
Epofhis	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:58:00 - [39] Originally by: Julien Derida Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/05/2005 21:33:35 Except the smaller ships who need lube, because they have great difficulty now fitting small launchers and small guns. And they're mixed ships, so they're going to have to throw things like speed and surviveability out of the window to fit both. Translation: I'm upset because I might have to drop the rocket launcher, MWD II or 400mm plate from my Claw allow a better trans Translation of Julien: Now I will be able to pwn sheet in my crow from 80k, and almost insta damage light missles.. .w00t1001011!! Taranis is a fine bird, its the only bird I have second thoughts about engaging in my claw. Claw still needs a mapc to fit a decent loadout there are you happy now, my sig fits every rule. Now, no delete me pls, I promise to be good!!!11010101!!
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.05.04 21:59:00 - [40] Edited by: Julien Derida on 04/05/2005 21:59:55 Originally by: Epofhis allow a better trans Translation of Julien: Now I will be able to pwn sheet in my crow from 80k, and almost insta damage light missles.. .w00t1001011!! Taranis is a fine bird, its the only bird I have second thoughts about engaging in my claw. Claw still needs a mapc to fit a decent loadout LOL. I can't even fly a Crow. I fly a Claw since the Crusader got nerfed into mediocrity. :P ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Horatio Starkiller	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:00:00 - [41] yeah wooOOO nerf the minnie ships, I have 21mil+ skill points and as long as a raven pilot has less than 3mil skillpoints i can prolly beat them. /sarcasm -----------
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:02:00 - [42] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/05/2005 22:06:06 Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/05/2005 22:04:59 Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/05/2005 22:03:27 Originally by: Julien Derida Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/05/2005 21:33:35 Except the smaller ships who need lube, because they have great difficulty now fitting small launchers and small guns. And they're mixed ships, so they're going to have to throw things like speed and surviveability out of the window to fit both. Translation: I'm upset because I might have to drop the rocket launcher, MWD II or 400mm plate from my Claw Shows how much you know you little ***. I allready had to revert to a T1 MWD since they nerfed the T2. Uses too much grid and cap. I'm looking at either giving up ANY chance of fighting a ship with 2+ missile launchers or a good chunk of my firepower now. This WOULDN'T be an issue if the named micro aux power relays dropped, ffs. And if the T2 Minmatar frigs take it hard, frankly that's minor compared to what it's doing to the T1* Minmatar frigs. (Epofhis - I'm resigned to using a MAPC, but as I say it SUCKS the named ones don't drop. And personally I kill Tarranis and AF's on a regular basis but I know I'm hardly the average Claw pilot either. If I'M looking on this kind of thing with alarm...) "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:06:00 - [43] Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 04/05/2005 22:10:27 T2 1400's are slightly overpowered. Everything else seems fine to me. 1400's need a slight decrease in damage modifier with a slight increase in rate of fire. Megathrons with T2 425's way out damage a tempest over time, but the one hit damage potential of a tempest is what completely destroys ship balance because it can one shot cruisers. If the one hit damage potential of 1400's was slightly reduced, while maintainin the same damage over time, everything would be fine. The stiletto is fine as is, its a nice EW platform and a great tackler, but if its just fitted to tackle it has a very hard time against other inty's. The claw would be super overpowered except for its crappy targeting range...which is enough to keep the claw balanced as is. Also, I don't see how missles are getting nerfed. They will be better in fleets, they will be better on frigates (crow has been boosted if you ask me). The only thing that will hurt is that raven's won't be able to insta-poon inty's like they can now...boo hoo.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:13:00 - [44] Originally by: Maya Rkell Shows how much you know you little ***. I allready had to revert to a T1 MWD since they nerfed the T2. Uses too much grid and cap. I'm looking at either giving up ANY chance of fighting a ship with 2+ missile launchers or a good chunk of my firepower now. This WOULDN'T be an issue if the named micro aux power relays dropped, ffs. And if the T2 Minmatar frigstake it hard, frankly that's minor compared to what it's doing to the T1* Minmatar frigs. Bloody hell! Someones a bit touchy! Essentially I am right though. Your **ed off because the increased rocket launcher grid use **s up your setup. Fair enough. I don't find it that convenient either. It's not the end of the world though. When it come down to it, don't you think fitting a full offense and defender capability on the Claw for single digit pg use was a tad overpowered? Isn't that why it's been by far the best close-range interceptor for a while now? ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Meridius	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:15:00 - [45] Edited by: Meridius on 04/05/2005 22:20:23 Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 04/05/2005 22:10:27 T2 1400's are slightly overpowered. Everything else seems fine to me. 1400's need a slight decrease in damage modifier with a slight increase in rate of fire. Megathrons with T2 425's way out damage a tempest over time, but the one hit damage potential of a tempest is what completely destroys ship balance because it can one shot cruisers. If the one hit damage potential of 1400's was slightly reduced, while maintainin the same damage over time, everything would be fine. I don't see anything wrong with that, it's unique and just damn cool. It requires good skills as well so yeah, i think it's fine. (holy ****, i've been browsing the forums all day and i just noticed the missile changes thread) ________________________________________________________
Hyey	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:45:00 - [46] Edited by: Hyey on 04/05/2005 22:45:51 I really hope you are joking.. so ill take it as a joke. Has to be... 50% more pg on a deimos?... the vagabond is better than everything else? This has to be some sort of sherade lol ~~ Hyey I just payed 15 dollars this month just to be able to respond on the forums... stupid cancellation error.
Isonkon Serikain	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:47:00 - [47] Levin, this is a whine post if I've ever seen one. To the guy who watnts to lower the per shot damage of tempests: Why bring the minmatar guns to what rails are, they are fine the way they are. And by the way, you need tons of skills to one shot a cruiser, and a bit of luck to boot. You are talking about about doing 3000 Damage in 1 volley. Even for the top pilots its not a guarantee. You CAN take out a cruiser in 2-3 volleys from an apoc tho, that is much easier, and no cruiser can warp out that fast. I recently started training minnie because I traded my scorp for a tempest after the EW changes (I don't want to train for those). I have decent gunnery skills, nothing spectacular, but I can tell you that I have higher DOT using lasers on a poc or geddon. I have several million sp in gunnery, but I figured I need to sink in at least a couple months training specifically for artillery so I can do those hard hitting volleys on the tempest... Clearly, its something you earn, not an unfair advantage minmatar has. I would still get owned by an apoc pilot who has the same SP as me. Further, in fleet battles, DOT is STILL king. Artilleries have the lowest normalized damage. -inties: I dont think they are unbalanced I could go on but its futile... -
Isonkon Serikain	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:48:00 - [48] NOt to mention...missiles are going to own... WTB crow bpo.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:52:00 - [49] Originally by: Julien Derida Originally by: Maya Rkell Shows how much you know you little ***. I allready had to revert to a T1 MWD since they nerfed the T2. Uses too much grid and cap. I'm looking at either giving up ANY chance of fighting a ship with 2+ missile launchers or a good chunk of my firepower now. This WOULDN'T be an issue if the named micro aux power relays dropped, ffs. And if the T2 Minmatar frigstake it hard, frankly that's minor compared to what it's doing to the T1* Minmatar frigs. Bloody hell! Someones a bit touchy! Essentially I am right though. Your **ed off because the increased rocket launcher grid use **s up your setup. Fair enough. I don't find it that convenient either. It's not the end of the world though. When it come down to it, don't you think fitting a full offense and defender capability on the Claw for single digit pg use was a tad overpowered? Isn't that why it's been by far the best close-range interceptor for a while now? Don't "translate" what I say then. If you wanna know what I meant, ask. And yes, it's a second big nerf (the T2 MWD one hit HARD) on a ship which for many pilots isn't worthwhile. I KNOW how much player skill it involves. And tbh as I said without defenders and against missiles which can pound me from range, I'd really truly screwed. So I have to step ALL my guns down, giving up a fair chunk of firepower. Which screws me again gun inties and the defenders arn't THAT good... So I might as well just not fight missile ships. Ever. And given the number of people flying em after the patch, might as well go grab one myself. The missile changes as proposed are BROKEN. That's why I'm fighting them. If named MAPC's dropped, it'd be okay. But they don't. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
BigJim Beef	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:57:00 - [50] The real reason that Matari ships are suddenly 'overpowered' is that for the last six months anyone wanting to fly one has had to train all related skills to 4 or 5 to be even competitive ... so now when they get boosted you have people with maxed skills reaping the rewards.
Neon Genesis	Posted - 2005.05.04 22:59:00 - [51] Originally by: Levin Cavil Currently only the minmatar ships are really worth flying. Don't agree with this Vaga is very good yeh __ There, i just contributed nothing to your thread
fairimear	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:09:00 - [52] Edited by: fairimear on 04/05/2005 23:14:11 this thread is a joke. a mega will out snipe and out dmg a tempest with far worse skills. why people going omg minmatar uber. because the few pilots that stuck at projectiles when they was so so bad now have them at lvl5 because that was needed for them to even do the slightest thing pre-buff. also during the bad times they could buy their named guns far cheaper than any one else so many have multiple sets. i doub't 90% the people here have there large gun's to t2 same as the min pilots who are pwning. u wana see a travisty look at the mega with t2 425mm rails that can out dmg a medium raven tank from 130km. i have a machariel and still would rather take a mega for pvp on sisi where combat has no cost and can be fitted to the max. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world Domination.
laserc	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:18:00 - [53] And an Armageddon with tech II beams outdamages all the long range ships
Cummilla	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:29:00 - [54] Really surprised to see a whine post like this from Cavill. What's next on the nerf block then? Your and my beloved megathron? So what we just got a little shot in the arm PG wise with the thron, so now the minnie's get screwed(again, after just having been "fixed").....then the circle jerk pivots and who's next? And where does it end? In reality the playerbase is the pivotman in this sick little game of russian circle jerkage. I say "stop the madness."
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:29:00 - [55] Edited by: Julien Derida on 04/05/2005 23:30:59 Originally by: Maya Rkell Don't "translate" what I say then. If you wanna know what I meant, ask. It was meant as a playful dig, hence the winking smiley. No offense meant. I already knew exactly what you were upset about, because I have exactly the same problem. Quote: And yes, it's a second big nerf (the T2 MWD one hit HARD) on a ship which for many pilots isn't worthwhile. I KNOW how much player skill it involves. And tbh as I said without defenders and against missiles which can pound me from range, I'd really truly screwed. So I have to step ALL my guns down, giving up a fair chunk of firepower. Which screws me again gun inties and the defenders arn't THAT good... So I might as well just not fight missile ships. Ever. And given the number of people flying em after the patch, might as well go grab one myself. The missile changes as proposed are BROKEN. That's why I'm fighting them. If named MAPC's dropped, it'd be okay. But they don't. This is where I have to disagree with you. Even without defenders the close-range Claw is still a very fine ship. Try setting up a Taranis or Crusader with the kind of tank you can fit on a Claw. It simply isn't possible. Neither the Taranis nor the Crusader even has the option of fitting defenders either. I understand your frustration. It is irritating to see a wonderful ship nerfed as a side-effect of balancing elsewhere. It happened to my Crusader, and now it is happening again to my chosen replacement inty, the Claw. It's irritating, but it's life. I'm just thankful that the Claw maintains the majority of it's usefullness, unlike the post-nerf Crusader. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
Dionysus Davinci	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:31:00 - [56] Edited by: Dionysus Davinci on 04/05/2005 23:35:38 Originally by: fairimear Edited by: fairimear on 04/05/2005 23:14:11 this thread is a joke. a mega will out snipe and out dmg a tempest with far worse skills. Yeah, the last time I faced a tempest he ran away with 1/4 armor left and not even a 1/4 of my shields where peeled away. Of course this was a pre-made over 120km+ range BM so I outranged him hard. Problem is, I don't have warp in at 150kms to 100kms button so unless I pre-set BMs around celestial objects (Which I am often forced to do) that out range agrument means jack ****.
Levin Cavil	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:32:00 - [57] Edited by: Levin Cavil on 04/05/2005 23:33:08 @selim Railathron > Tempest <-- LoLz if the rails ever track long enough to hit. Blasterthron > autotempest <-- autocannons can hit like 2x as far as blasters plus the tempest is faster and tanks better Raven > autotempest <-- not after missile nerf Ishtar > vagabond <-- drones suck Deimos > Muninn <-- munin has higest dot of all ass cruisers. Thorax > anything <-- dual mwd rupture anyone? You can't think of a single uber minnie ship because they aer ALL uber. So yeah, die. <-- plz don't make personal threats, I will be forced to send Wrangler after you. "(lol at vagabond comment too - its fast but not much else, its made of cardboard and is armed with peashooters!)" "(lol x 100 at missile nerf comment - have you seen the missile thread? those things are uber!)" ROFLcakes ------------------------------ <Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:36:00 - [58] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 04/05/2005 23:37:48 Julien Derida, That's not true. I've killed a Tarranis with a 400mm plate and a small T2 rep. Think he was packing electrons, but it was still a hell of a fight. Heck, I peeled apart a CROW the other day and it had an 400mm armour plate. And sorry, I disagree that it remains useful without being able to TRY and fight other inties. Missile-wielding inties have just become UBER with these changes as stated (sure the stats are broken right now. That'll change...) . So I have no choice but to match them to evolve. (that's the old tired statement isn't it? So I'll EVOLVE to the flavour of the week) The Crusader's problem is inherent in lasers having a hard time melting armour... "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Necrologic	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:38:00 - [59] Edited by: Necrologic on 04/05/2005 23:38:57 Originally by: Levin Cavil Edited by: Levin Cavil on 04/05/2005 23:33:08 @selim Railathron > Tempest <-- LoLz if the rails ever track long enough to hit. Blasterthron > autotempest <-- autocannons can hit like 2x as far as blasters plus the tempest is faster and tanks better Raven > autotempest <-- not after missile nerf Ishtar > vagabond <-- drones suck Deimos > Muninn <-- munin has higest dot of all ass cruisers. Thorax > anything <-- dual mwd rupture anyone? You can't think of a single uber minnie ship because they aer ALL uber. So yeah, die. <-- plz don't make personal threats, I will be forced to send Wrangler after you. "(lol at vagabond comment too - its fast but not much else, its made of cardboard and is armed with peashooters!)" "(lol x 100 at missile nerf comment - have you seen the missile thread? those things are uber!)" ROFLcakes 1) Rails track better than artillery 2) Mega tanks better and tempest is only slightly faster 3) Missle damage isn't changing vs other battleships 4) The Ishtar out tanks the vagabond, and drones do not suck. 5) Muninn cannot tank for crap, and because of this close range muninns tend to die to deimos, but it can go either way. 6) Did you miss that dual mwd was removed? So, in summery, good joke thread :D _______________________________________________________ Et nunc, reges, intelligite, erudimini, qui judicati terram.
Balistic Void	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:56:00 - [60] Claw is overpowered. Can't comment on other minmatar ships. Claw could wtfpwn the Crusader even before the pulse nerf. Only ceptor 1v1 I've lost was versus a taranis, during which I screwed up my maneuvre and got webbed.
Sobeseki Pawi	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:57:00 - [61] LOL this thread is funny. I fly Minmatar ships cause they are fast, the rest is just details. ~Sobe Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss What is your Radical Dream?
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.05.04 23:59:00 - [62] Claw can do that precisely BECAUSE you're using lasers. It's an easy fight for a tanked Claw. Fight from range if you want a chance. And tbh dropping the rocket won't help the Amarr inty's chances much. Get over it. It's OTHER factors which CCP are using here which are forcing people to abandon the claw. (I've had several evemails agreeing with me, from other Claw PvP pilots) "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Balistic Void	Posted - 2005.05.05 00:06:00 - [63] Maya: I've been inactive for a week or so, what's this "abandon" the Claw stuff? Will happily 1v1 any ceptor with my Claw.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.05.05 00:08:00 - [64] See the missile thread. The current theory is OVERWHELMINGLY bised, at least at the frig level in favour of missile users. This is why I'm fighting it. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Balistic Void	Posted - 2005.05.05 00:12:00 - [65] Hmm, just saw that now - thanks for the heads up. I stop playing for 5 minutes and they fscking change everything!
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.05.05 00:17:00 - [66] The really broken combo is web and tpainter, considering how that works against MWD ships. Your only option with an AB is to disengage, which isn't so hot either. So yea. Fighting the future. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Cabal Leader	Posted - 2005.05.05 00:22:00 - [67] Edited by: Cabal Leader on 05/05/2005 00:23:08 Wahhhhmbulance anyone? Somebodys Flavor of the year Amaar ship got nerfed. And the worst race in game got a decent bonus. So lets whine about it now because your not Minmitar specialized? Would you have complained if your Amaar ship was still the uber ship it used to be?.. Would you complain or petition CCP to boost the Minmitar ships in all fairness? No .. I didnt think so.
Julien Derida	Posted - 2005.05.05 01:06:00 - [68] Originally by: Maya Rkell That's not true. I've killed a Tarranis with a 400mm plate and a small T2 rep. Think he was packing electrons, but it was still a hell of a fight. Heck, I peeled apart a CROW the other day and it had an 400mm armour plate. This is essentially my point, although I possibly wasn't clear enough. Noone but a fool runs Electrons on a Taranis because of their appalling range. They're already down to 50% DoT when you hit 2km... ACs with their excellent falloff will hit out to 6-7km. Hence, the Claw will start hitting earlier and also (if the pilot is particularly astute) have the oppurtunity to outrange the Taranis. Given that the Claw should be faster than the Taranis, I would expect it to win that fight. When you downgrade your guns on the Claw, you only lose DoT. Your operational range is the same as the falloff is constant. On a Taranis, if you downgrade your guns to fit a tank you take a major hit to both DoT and operational range. It's really not a comparable situation. I'm sure you know that already but meh. ---------------------------------------- Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK
shivan	Posted - 2005.05.05 01:19:00 - [69] yup minmatar are sooooo overpowered. I think my 1400II damage mod of 18.4 and RoF of 8.9 seconds from having over 7mill SP in gunnery and from playing the game for nearly 2 years is way overpowered. I mean I get wreckens on armour for 1700+ In closeing, I think missiles with there upcoming buff sohuld travel at 3587305m/s, there should be a FoF torp brought in. Also the blasters that every1 fits on a demios shoould have an acc falloff of 50km to counter the speed of the vagebond, seeing as speed is one of the few real advantages that minmatar have along with the low cap use for there guns. In fact lets nerf minmatar, yay for the nerf. Seriously tho, Yes the 1400II does dish some stupid damage at times, but with everything it is depends on the skill level of the pilot and the ship set up. Look at the gankageddon, with the right set up that thing can still dish stupid damage except the range on the pulse has been brought into line along with other guns in its class from the other races. As for the 1400II do OMFGWTFBBQFISHSTICKSKTHXCYABYE damage, you can set up an apoc to do simalar DoT with tachs, or a megatrone with 425's. So long as the skill level is the same and ship set ups are simlar, then the damage will be roughly the same. The thing with the 1400 is it does its damage in 1 big mofo lump. Wearas the tachs and 425 dont have the same damage mod but increase there damage from there better RoF. Also mega gets its tracking bounus so the 425's track a **** load faster, and the tachs have the advanatge of not needing to be reloaded. I use emp in my 1400's. That means after a little under 90 seconds i gotta relaod, thats an extra 10 seconds before i can open up again, once more the other ships being able to catch up on the damage that the 1400's cant deal during that time. If u know the weakness of the 1400 they are possible one of the worst guns in the game, u just need to know how to fly your ship effectivly when fighting someone in a tempest. I wont tell ya how, cuz thats where all my SP are. TBH the proj dont need a nerf. You just need to up ur SP in ur guns or stack on a few more damage mods. ATM damage is a lot more important than tanking simple becuase with any tech II gun, you can't out tank them. breaths --------------------------------------- (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination.
Levin Cavil	Posted - 2005.05.05 02:46:00 - [70] Edited by: Levin Cavil on 05/05/2005 04:47:02 You're all tools. This thread was just to get under Selim's skin and make him post, which he did (insighful as always.) Mission: Accomplished. ------------------------------ <Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
IonHammer	Posted - 2005.05.05 03:00:00 - [71] Its true: you are an ebil space ninja please get em to lock the thread if your done, these my guns bigger than your gun makes my bottom hurt.
Kardim	Posted - 2005.05.05 04:17:00 - [72] dont know about you guys but some slaves that escaped from my ship shouldnt be able to make some wrenches out of sticks and bones and make ships that can kill anything in game lol .... look at the wolf
Levin Cavil	Posted - 2005.05.05 05:49:00 - [73] Originally by: IonHammer Its true: you are an ebil space ninja please get em to lock the thread if your done, these my guns bigger than your gun makes my bottom hurt. Hey hey Ion, long time no see, glad to see you are still around. ------------------------------ <Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
Grosvenor Corama	Posted - 2005.05.05 06:58:00 - [74] And Locked. ~{Forum Rules}~ ♥ ~{contact us}~

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