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dexington
Push button receive bacon
191
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Posted - 2012.12.04 22:29:00 -
[61] - Quote
Anneliese Pollard wrote:Here's what I think.
Make a high module that allows the capsuleer to extend their tank out to the drone. The drones now have survivability, but at a cost of losing some tank on your ship. The amount changes based on drone size.
Thoughts?
You can remote rep drones...
GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥ |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2084
|
Posted - 2012.12.04 23:03:00 -
[62] - Quote
Aducat Ragnarson wrote:Instead of bitching about the changes, how about the mission runners read up on the sleeper AI a little bit?
Just one single web on your BS will create enough aggro, (if you activate it on something of course) that your drones will only be targeted very seldomly. For full drone boats, just use sentries and one rr mod in the highlot which will generate enough aggro.
For BS it just means that you have to keep your drones in and only launch them if you really need to kill off the frigs that are close; close enough for a web.
Because Minmatar BS really have that many spare mid slots... 
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Unraveller Chase
The Imperial Order of the Dragon
3
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Posted - 2012.12.04 23:12:00 -
[63] - Quote
To test the AI, I ran a mission lost a couple drones which is OK. but if the mission (L4) has a lot of frigates i can see things becoming more problematic, almost forcing small weapons to be equipped to deal. They certainly tore my drones to shreds before i could pull them back and I could not target and rep a drone in time with my BS.
The cost to run missions certainly goes up a lot if you spend 1M++ to replace drones (for a fast mission). Not sure my thoughts on this yet.
Looks like its sentries from now on??
My 2 cents: some kind of module to repair only drones (range on current remote repairs is far too limited for this purpose). Make is rather cap intensive and high slot.
-Chase |
Mund Richard
10
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Posted - 2012.12.04 23:13:00 -
[64] - Quote
dexington wrote:Anneliese Pollard wrote:Here's what I think.
Make a high module that allows the capsuleer to extend their tank out to the drone. The drones now have survivability, but at a cost of losing some tank on your ship. The amount changes based on drone size.
Thoughts? You can remote rep drones...
Please remote rep my webbed Medium/Heavy drones killing a battleship orbiting 30-50km away.
Well, not mines obviously, but that of a myrm for instance, I use Sentries.
Anneliese Pollard wrote:Here's what I think.
Make a high module that allows the capsuleer to extend their tank out to the drone. The drones now have survivability, but at a cost of losing some tank on your ship. The amount changes based on drone size.
Thoughts? I'd be interested in a way that lets your local rep be extended to the drones (untargeted, due to their low resist inefficient, but extended range).
I'd think it wouldn't mess up PvP at all, but maybe help PvE.
Then again, maybe we should just use the Taunt buttons CCP FoxFire wanted us to use.
Here comes me putting on an ECM and trying to jam one of 20-30 ships shooting at me for no good reason but to make myself look more intimidating!
I tested.
It works.
Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Kithran
21
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Posted - 2012.12.04 23:25:00 -
[65] - Quote
Aducat Ragnarson wrote:Instead of bitching about the changes, how about the mission runners read up on the sleeper AI a little bit?
Just one single web on your BS will create enough aggro, (if you activate it on something of course) that your drones will only be targeted very seldomly. For full drone boats, just use sentries and one rr mod in the highlot which will generate enough aggro.
For BS it just means that you have to keep your drones in and only launch them if you really need to kill off the frigs that are close; close enough for a web.
I'm familiar with sleeper AI - I've had no problems using drones with a hurricane in C1 to C3 wormholes.
The problem is that in some missions you get frigates spawning so close you have to use drones on them yet they are in large enough numbers that one can easily die before they can be recalled from the initial rat alpha, add to that not every BS has an excess of mid slots to fit an extra module or two just to make you more attractive to rats as VV has pointed out.
And to add to the problem there is also an issue with some missions where you now get full room aggro on warp in whereas before you had multiple groups that would only aggro under specific conditions - I'm avoiding World's Collide for the moment, I dread to think what the middle and final rooms of that will be like with multiple scramming frigs starting within close range that used to not aggro but could now aggro immediately.
Kithran |
Mund Richard
10
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Posted - 2012.12.04 23:47:00 -
[66] - Quote
Kithran wrote:And to add to the problem there is also an issue with some missions where you now get full room aggro on warp in whereas before you had multiple groups that would only aggro under specific conditions - I'm avoiding World's Collide for the moment, I dread to think what the middle and final rooms of that will be like with multiple scramming frigs starting within close range that used to not aggro but could now aggro immediately.
Before, I used to dualbox that one, with an overtanked Domi taking agro, launching sentries, giving them via assist to the second toon that warps in with a high dps tissue-tank ship, and...
...Oh... ooohhh... suddenly I see why this change was... "needed"...
Not that I have any idea how to run those rooms efficiently solo.
Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Scally Dog
Swashbuckling Baboons
0
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Posted - 2012.12.05 01:15:00 -
[67] - Quote
I'm not right impressed. I've had two missions tonight where as soon as you warp in, the entire room aggros.
My Fleet Tempest is pretty quick at cleaning up but when you're trying to do Assault Level 4 against Serpentis and you have 8 Damps on you, there's not a lot you can do.
I've just attempted - Shipyard theft, Level 4 against Angels, again whole room aggros upon warp, my guess would be about 1500DPS incoming pretty quickly.
I hope this is a bug as it's like trying to solo an 8\10 plex on your own
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Coyote Reach
State Protectorate
Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.12.05 01:17:00 -
[68] - Quote
I don't run IV's and i don't live in highsec.
I run V's with 2 accounts and occasionaly 1 account with a carrier when im lazy. When aggro switches to a drone and its outside of docking range its more than likely going to be in structure before i can get it back. The only time i use the drones is when im being scrambled so its not that far off. Lost a fighter earlier this morning while trying to figure how to move the scrolling combat text. 2 other fighters were in low armor/structure by the time i could lock /get the fighter in rep range. Dscanning every 3 seconds as well of course. I can work around this but i wont lie it is a bit of a pain in the dlck with that much dps concentrated on a poor little hob or a slowass fighter out of rep range.
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Anneliese Pollard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.12.05 01:20:00 -
[69] - Quote
So I've done a few missions already and haven't lost a drone yet.
Some notes:
I re-did my fit to include a TP. That seemed to be enough to keep my drones in the clear. Was using 3 omnis.
Used a mixture of lights, heavies, and sentries. None of the NPCs so far switched. Even had around 8 to 12 frigates on top of me, some of them webbers. Once I kicked off my painter, I had no problems taking them out.
Have run a few missions for different factions (different NPCs). The easiest were Angels by far. I felt like the sensor dampening on Serp and jamming on Guristas was slightly stronger though.
The DDA IIs added quite a bit to the drone DPS. Most sentries 2-volleyed into armor, 3-volleyed worst-case. The higher damage was noticeable.
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Annunaki soldier
Segmentum Solar
Intrepid Crossing
3
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Posted - 2012.12.05 01:23:00 -
[70] - Quote
You do know that ccp will reply it was not intended. The sleeper ai never really worked for drone boats inside wh, why on earth will work outside? Any room with enough npc inside will kill the drones faster than they can get back. only sentries do work a bit but those also make the ships focusing on using sub par from turret based ones |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe
Defiant Legacy
485
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Posted - 2012.12.05 01:29:00 -
[71] - Quote
Anneliese Pollard wrote:So I've done a few missions already and haven't lost a drone yet.
Some notes:
I re-did my fit to include a TP. That seemed to be enough to keep my drones in the clear.
You know what really makes me laugh about the whole drone and new AI situation? Pretty much this stuff you just said.
Fit no EWAR/RR - drones are useless because they get focused.
Fit any EWAR/RR - drones are better than they were before. Even new waves won't switch on them as soon as you slap the TP on someone.
Soooo, what exactly was the improvement in AI again? In a way, it's even dumber than it was before. |
Anneliese Pollard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.12.05 01:35:00 -
[72] - Quote
Going to keep testing and adding more EWAR/RR if they start to go after my drones. |
Sevchenko Valens
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.12.05 02:14:00 -
[73] - Quote
Anneliese Pollard wrote:Going to keep testing and adding more EWAR/RR if they start to go after my drones.
I'll do some testing of my own with a TP on an ishtar.
Thanks for the tip! |
HydroSan
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
17
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Posted - 2012.12.05 02:36:00 -
[74] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Anneliese Pollard wrote:So I've done a few missions already and haven't lost a drone yet.
Some notes:
I re-did my fit to include a TP. That seemed to be enough to keep my drones in the clear.
You know what really makes me laugh about the whole drone and new AI situation? Pretty much this stuff you just said. Fit no EWAR/RR - drones are useless because they get focused. Fit any EWAR/RR - drones are better than they were before. Even new waves won't switch on them as soon as you slap the TP on someone. Soooo, what exactly was the improvement in AI again? In a way, it's even dumber than it was before.
I tried RR and it didn't help. I can't really sacrifice a tanking mid slot for ewar.
My drones are useless now and I feel like I should have rolled caldari for missiles and the better stats (back when they had better stats). |
Mund Richard
11
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Posted - 2012.12.05 02:39:00 -
[75] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Anneliese Pollard wrote:So I've done a few missions already and haven't lost a drone yet.
Some notes:
I re-did my fit to include a TP. That seemed to be enough to keep my drones in the clear.
You know what really makes me laugh about the whole drone and new AI situation? Pretty much this stuff you just said. Fit no EWAR/RR - drones are useless because they get focused. Fit any EWAR/RR - drones are better than they were before. Even new waves won't switch on them as soon as you slap the TP on someone. Soooo, what exactly was the improvement in AI again? In a way, it's even dumber than it was before.
So far, based on limited and short-term usage of goblins (gardes all the way unless really in a tight spot) I did against the few frig rats I saw, the "smarter" AI is in fact "dumber" this way. (Do note I didn't have more than 3 frigs at a time, and my goblins weren't out for more than half a min.)
But if you do not add an EWAR mod, they are quite quick to pick up.
So now drone ships, that traditionally have one slot less, and then usually dedicate a slot or two to drone range extenders alone (if needed) also dedicate a mid for ewar (highslot remote rep ain't good enough, if the scrambling frig is just outside rep range).
Then CCP hears mission runners have it EZ-Mode with the EWAR, makes rats hate AI more, and any ship without an EWAR module cannot use drones.
This ain't WoW?
We just have our taunt mechanic applied to every npc fight in game that didn't have it yet.
Sarcasm can be like drugs. |
Anneliese Pollard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.12.05 03:16:00 -
[76] - Quote
The big 3 I haven't done are blockade, AE, and Worlds Collide.
7 missions so far. No drone loss.
The painter has been invaluable in that respect. Haven't tried any other EWAR at the moment, but it's looking more and more like a WoW mechanic (I've never done Sleepers, so forgive my ignorance in that area).
You generate enough threat and maintain it, your drones are fine.
Sent heavies to 40km just to test in Pirate Invasion. It looked like one frigate that webbed/scrammed me might peel off because he stopped doing that to me, but he resumed within 2 seconds.
I will say this - each pocket in the missions fully aggroed the minute I painted something. I went and verified by actually going after specific groups and that didn't matter.
The big test I think will be the big Serp/Gurista rooms where there's heavy damp and jamming. Haven't gotten to one of those just yet. |
Sevchenko Valens
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.12.05 04:03:00 -
[77] - Quote
Anneliese Pollard wrote:
The big test I think will be the big Serp/Gurista rooms where there's heavy damp and jamming. Haven't gotten to one of those just yet.
If I can pick up a serp frig buddy that doesnt web, then have him follow me around then no problem.
Guristas seem to be a no-go however. I guess thats alright though, since drone boats didn't even sweat those losers before. |
Firestorm Delta
Aphotic Machina
9
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Posted - 2012.12.05 04:07:00 -
[78] - Quote
Kithran wrote:
And to add to the problem there is also an issue with some missions where you now get full room aggro on warp in whereas before you had multiple groups that would only aggro under specific conditions - I'm avoiding World's Collide for the moment, I dread to think what the middle and final rooms of that will be like with multiple scramming frigs starting within close range that used to not aggro but could now aggro immediately.
Kithran
I just got that mission today, not sure if I want to try my luck or not because that much aggro can be hard to handle for most ships. |
Easy Name
Carmina Burana Inc.
0
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Posted - 2012.12.05 04:28:00 -
[79] - Quote
The situation with drones are so ridiculous, I have to admire the morons who designed such brilliant Mission AI. even when there is only ONE npc left in a mission and it is clear targeting you, causing damage to your ship, it is simultaneously killing your drones. |
Oopsy Bear
Massively Masochistic Machos
18
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Posted - 2012.12.05 07:21:00 -
[80] - Quote
On a related note, precision cruise missiles no longer suck. With rigs and TPs frigates don't take long to kill at all. Large missile boats don't really need drones in the missions I tried. |
David Zahavi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2012.12.05 07:27:00 -
[81] - Quote
Lots of people in my alt corp were mentioning in mumble tonight that even in mauraders, their drones were unable to apply damage in any meaningful way, and died too fast throughout the mission to be a) worth the money, and b) made it very hard to kill frigates, if not impossible at times. |
Oopsy Bear
Massively Masochistic Machos
18
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Posted - 2012.12.05 07:57:00 -
[82] - Quote
David Zahavi wrote:Lots of people in my alt corp were mentioning in mumble tonight that even in mauraders, their drones were unable to apply damage in any meaningful way, and died too fast throughout the mission to be a) worth the money, and b) made it very hard to kill frigates, if not impossible at times.
Inferno precision cruise took out spider drones while they were MWD in 3 volleys. Ship had rigor rigs and 2 TP. Never had to release any drones. |
dexington
Push button receive bacon
191
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Posted - 2012.12.05 08:01:00 -
[83] - Quote
Mund Richard wrote:dexington wrote:Anneliese Pollard wrote:Here's what I think.
Make a high module that allows the capsuleer to extend their tank out to the drone. The drones now have survivability, but at a cost of losing some tank on your ship. The amount changes based on drone size.
Thoughts? You can remote rep drones... Please remote rep my webbed Medium/Heavy drones killing a battleship orbiting 30-50km away. Well, not mines obviously, but that of a myrm for instance, I use Sentries.
Yeah i know it's a ****** idea and only works with sentries, i was just pointing out that it is possible to some extend to use modules to increase survivability of drones.
GÇ£The best way to keep something bad from happening is to see it ahead of time, and you can't see it if you refuse to face the possibility.GÇ¥ |
Vas Eldryn
Flying While Intoxicated
Apocalypse Now.
0
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Posted - 2012.12.05 08:15:00 -
[84] - Quote
How to use drones in missions:
Deploy drones and recall them 3 times, but you have to wait till they are argoed.... for every spawn you have to repeat...
ultimately gallente ships are no longer mission ships leaving only the raven as an all rounder!
massive fail by CCP |
Sevchenko Valens
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 09:27:00 -
[85] - Quote
Oopsy Bear wrote:On a related note, precision cruise missiles no longer suck. With rigs and TPs frigates don't take long to kill at all. Large missile boats don't really need drones in the missions I tried.
Do you find it was more an issue that they suddenly have a use where before drones were better, or was there actually some buff applied to these "missiles" that my Caldari brethren insist are a thing? |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
656
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Posted - 2012.12.05 13:02:00 -
[86] - Quote
Just leave your light drones in the bay unless you get frigates hitting you at close range, kill everything else first except the triggers and stick a web on your primary frigate. Deploy drones, kill frigate, repeat and recall if needed.
If you want to use Drones as damage support, deploy sentries. The only thing this patch has done is make people more aware of their Drone UI and possibly learn to keybind the recall option.
Also I strongly disagree with the both. My Kronos is perfectly fine to mission in now, it's also even prettier than before and 425mm rails sound awesome.
Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Anneliese Pollard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.12.05 13:20:00 -
[87] - Quote
I flew nearly 10 missions last night before downtime.
I did the Serpentis Blockade as one of my last ones. Doing a mission with heavy damps was a good test. I got what I could at range, but had to wait until most was on top of me. Frigates got a paint and hobgoblins. None were targeted. Cruisers that were on top of me received Ogres. Sentries took out most of the BSes. When the trigger is killed, pull the drones. Pretty standard. The next spawn did target the drones. Same MO: establish threat, release drones. This continued throughout the mission. I even released my Ogres to 25km without any issues. Establishing threat is important. A web works, so does a TP. The TP might even be more effective as it helps missiles and your drones. I didn't find the web to be that helpful besides holding targets.
After running missions last night I'm left with this. Once people adapt to the changes it won't be an issue. You definitely need EWAR, although I've only tried webbing and painting. I have not tried anything else, so if anyone wants to test other stuff, feel free. When EWAR was taken off, the drones were targeted. Rather quickly too. Remote reppers do not do the job EWAR does in this situation.
I had 1 drone targeted when I didn't equip EWAR, and I pulled my drones, waited a few seconds, then released them again. The drone survived.
Happy hunting.
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xXClideXx
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.12.05 19:27:00 -
[88] - Quote
If I pull full aggro, and then kill everything but frigs and one BS, target paint the BS, and have my drones attack the remaining frigs, will that keep aggro off my drones? |
Anneliese Pollard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2012.12.05 21:43:00 -
[89] - Quote
It should.
But you could even paint the frigs at 30k out and they don't switch. I've tried it several times. |
Scally Dog
Swashbuckling Baboons
0
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Posted - 2012.12.06 00:20:00 -
[90] - Quote
Just to change the subject slightly about drones, does anyone use smartbombs against frigs?
I have only used drones in PVE to take out frigs and the reason why I haven't ever tried using smartbombs is that I heard if you set them off and it hits a neutral entity like an acceleration gate, concord come for you. Maybe fit a heavy cap booster, drop 2 torpedos for smartbombs? Just an idea..
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