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Is this a bug?

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FluffyDice Psykotic Meat Fatal Ascension 241	Posted - 2012.12.04 15:43:00 - [1] - Quote My friend who was remote sensor boosting me while I shot a suspect was globally flagged as a suspect after the target died. Is this intended mechanics? He also had his safety switch thing on.

ISD Praetoxx ISD Community Communications Liaisons 734	Posted - 2012.12.04 15:45:00 - [2] - Quote This is not a bug. As listed in the Patch Notes. "When using assistance modules on another player, you will inherit their Weapons, PVP, NPC and Legal flags." Hope this helps. - ISD Praetoxx ISD Praetoxx Lieutenant Community Communication Liasons (CCLs) Interstellar Service Department

FluffyDice Psykotic Meat Fatal Ascension 241	Posted - 2012.12.04 15:48:00 - [3] - Quote He was assisting me though and I wasn't a suspect.
Tiberious Thessalonia True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators 719	Posted - 2012.12.04 15:56:00 - [4] - Quote You just witnessed the effects of limited engagements. When someone is a suspect, and you shoot them, you create a limited engagement between yourself and the suspect. If someone then aids you in any way, they gain a suspect flag. This is done to make sure that things like neutral logi don't get used and remain completely safe.
Doddy Excidium. Executive Outcomes 395	Posted - 2012.12.04 15:57:00 - [5] - Quote Patch notes people; Suspect flag:.... .....Assisting someone who is in an Limited Engagement towards targets who cannot legally attack you.
FluffyDice Psykotic Meat Fatal Ascension 241	Posted - 2012.12.04 15:59:00 - [6] - Quote Ah ok thanks for explaining that. I can see why that would have flagged him though given the context of helping me shoot someone who is a target for everyone on grid it still seems stupid.
Schmata Bastanold Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo 218	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:02:00 - [7] - Quote FluffyDice wrote: Ah ok thanks for explaining that. I can see why that would have flagged him though given the context of helping me shoot someone who is a target for everyone on grid it still seems stupid. Because "old" way of risk-free neutrals helping you was so much smarter. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold
Doddy Excidium. Executive Outcomes 395	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:04:00 - [8] - Quote FluffyDice wrote: Ah ok thanks for explaining that. I can see why that would have flagged him though given the context of helping me shoot someone who is a target for everyone on grid it still seems stupid. It just means you friend doesn't benefit from being a coward.
FluffyDice Psykotic Meat Fatal Ascension 241	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:05:00 - [9] - Quote Schmata Bastanold wrote: Because "old" way of risk-free neutrals helping you was so much smarter. The old way was dumb. I think its just as dumb for him to gain harsher penalty than if he had actually shot the guy.
John DaiSho Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective 31	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:07:00 - [10] - Quote The trick is, let your friend agress the suspect first, thus giving the suspect the possibility to shoot him. Then he can assist you with remote repairing, seboosting etc and will only be shot by the supsect but not everyone.
Col Arran Concordiat Tribal Band 33	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:07:00 - [11] - Quote Schmata Bastanold wrote: FluffyDice wrote: Ah ok thanks for explaining that. I can see why that would have flagged him though given the context of helping me shoot someone who is a target for everyone on grid it still seems stupid. Because "old" way of risk-free neutrals helping you was so much smarter. Better get your fingers ready, I foresee a lot of these kind of threads popping up over the next months.
Sergeant Acht Scultz School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 19	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:09:00 - [12] - Quote Tiberious Thessalonia wrote: You just witnessed the effects of limited engagements. When someone is a suspect, and you shoot them, you create a limited engagement between yourself and the suspect. If someone then aids you in any way, they gain a suspect flag. This is done to make sure that things like neutral logi don't get used and remain completely safe. This
Ruskarn Andedare Lion Investments 19	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:10:00 - [13] - Quote FluffyDice wrote: Schmata Bastanold wrote: Because "old" way of risk-free neutrals helping you was so much smarter. The old way was dumb. I think its just as dumb for him to gain harsher penalty than if he had actually shot the guy. Nope, he should have just taken the risk of shooting at him too I like this
Gizznitt Malikite Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 778	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:11:00 - [14] - Quote John DaiSho wrote: The trick is, let your friend agress the suspect first, thus giving the suspect the possibility to shoot him. Then he can assist you with remote repairing, seboosting etc and will only be shot by the supsect but not everyone. ^^This.... Your friend needs to first aggress the suspects you are currently shooting, giving the suspects rights to shoot him.... then he can rep you without going Suspect himself...
FluffyDice Psykotic Meat Fatal Ascension 241	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:11:00 - [15] - Quote Ruskarn Andedare wrote: Nope, he should have just taken the risk of shooting at him too I like this Why not give him the same flags as if he had shot him instead of making him a free target for all?
Tiberious Thessalonia True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators 720	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:11:00 - [16] - Quote John DaiSho wrote: The trick is, let your friend agress the suspect first, thus giving the suspect the possibility to shoot him. Then he can assist you with remote repairing, seboosting etc and will only be shot by the supsect but not everyone. I'm actually not sure how this would work! With different limited engagements, it might be that if you help out a friend while both are under the same limited engagement would still result in them becoming a suspect.
Doddy Excidium. Executive Outcomes 395	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:12:00 - [17] - Quote FluffyDice wrote: Schmata Bastanold wrote: Because "old" way of risk-free neutrals helping you was so much smarter. The old way was dumb. I think its just as dumb for him to gain harsher penalty than if he had actually shot the guy. Sigh. No because if he shot the guy the guy could shoot him back. Without this he would be able to rep and be perfectly safe, which is dumb as hell and worse than the old way.
Doddy Excidium. Executive Outcomes 395	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:14:00 - [18] - Quote FluffyDice wrote: Ruskarn Andedare wrote: Nope, he should have just taken the risk of shooting at him too I like this Why not give him the same flags as if he had shot him instead of making him a free target for all? Because then we are using the old system ccp is trying to get rid of because it is "too confusing". .
FluffyDice Psykotic Meat Fatal Ascension 241	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:20:00 - [19] - Quote >I shoot suspect, suspect able to shoot me in return. >I receive help, suspect able to shoot my help. Seems more logical and less confusing than: >I shoot suspect, suspect able to shoot me in return. >I receive help, help is now able to be shot by everyone. But hey that's just me. Thanks for explaining the mechanics to me anyways.
Doddy Excidium. Executive Outcomes 396	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:23:00 - [20] - Quote FluffyDice wrote: >I shoot suspect, suspect able to shoot me in return. >I receive help, suspect able to shoot my help. Seems more logical and less confusing than: >I shoot suspect, suspect able to shoot me in return. >I receive help, help is now able to be shot by everyone. But hey that's just me. Thanks for explaining the mechanics to me anyways. Oh its definately more sensible, but when ccp went to all the bother making a new system they couldn't then use the old system instead could they.
FluffyDice Psykotic Meat Fatal Ascension 241	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:26:00 - [21] - Quote But they added shiny new icons and made griefing hard. Surely that was enough of new things.
Ravnik Choke-Hold 3398	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:29:00 - [22] - Quote FluffyDice wrote: >I shoot suspect, suspect able to shoot me in return. >I receive help, suspect able to shoot my help. Seems more logical and less confusing than: >I shoot suspect, suspect able to shoot me in return. >I receive help, help is now able to be shot by everyone. But hey that's just me. Thanks for explaining the mechanics to me anyways. I guess the problem is if you shoot suspect, he shoots you, someone boosts you, then suspect has 2 ships to deal with. Someone then reps you both, suspect now has 3 targets to deal with. It could soon spiral out of control and end up as a big gank. The new mechanics is to stop this happening. Uh, we had a slight weapons malfunction, but uh... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?....**..
Doddy Excidium. Executive Outcomes 396	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:31:00 - [23] - Quote Ravnik wrote: FluffyDice wrote: >I shoot suspect, suspect able to shoot me in return. >I receive help, suspect able to shoot my help. Seems more logical and less confusing than: >I shoot suspect, suspect able to shoot me in return. >I receive help, help is now able to be shot by everyone. But hey that's just me. Thanks for explaining the mechanics to me anyways. I guess the problem is if you shoot suspect, he shoots you, someone boosts you, then suspect has 2 ships to deal with. Someone then reps you both, suspect now has 3 targets to deal with. It could soon spiral out of control and end up as a big gank. The new mechanics is to stop this happening. Except they can all shoot the suspect then rep each other freely to start with.
FluffyDice Psykotic Meat Fatal Ascension 241	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:33:00 - [24] - Quote The suspect is free to be fired on by anyone who comes across him though. Spiraling out of control seems to be part of the deal when becoming a suspect. The alternative is instead of boosting me my friend just shoots him as well. Either way he still has 2 ships to deal with.
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 2794	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:35:00 - [25] - Quote That aspect might need some fine tuning, but they still need to avoid the old situation where when two people could shoot each other a neutral could assist one and only be shootable by the other party involved. That situation allowed someone to be suckered into a fight and have no way of receiving help against the "assisting" ship unless he too wanted to bring in a neutral repper. His corp/gang mates could not engage the boosting ship in any way, which was a bad situation. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Pohbis 110	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:38:00 - [26] - Quote FluffyDice wrote: Becoming a suspect for helping someone kill a suspect just doesn't seem intended. Getting assistance from someone whom your target can't attack doesn't either, hence the suspect flag Everyone deserves the ability to be able to fight back.
FluffyDice Psykotic Meat Fatal Ascension 241	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:38:00 - [27] - Quote Oh definitely. Safe neutral assistance should never be in the game. I just think a solution which makes the repper/booster a free for all target is a poor one.
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. 1210	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:43:00 - [28] - Quote Tiberious Thessalonia wrote: You just witnessed the effects of limited engagements. When someone is a suspect, and you shoot them, you create a limited engagement between yourself and the suspect. If someone then aids you in any way, they gain a suspect flag. This is done to make sure that things like neutral logi don't get used and remain completely safe. Why did the safety setting not protect him? If you have it set to green you should not be able to do anything that makes you a suspect. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/
Tiberious Thessalonia True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators 723	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:45:00 - [29] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: Tiberious Thessalonia wrote: You just witnessed the effects of limited engagements. When someone is a suspect, and you shoot them, you create a limited engagement between yourself and the suspect. If someone then aids you in any way, they gain a suspect flag. This is done to make sure that things like neutral logi don't get used and remain completely safe. Why did the safety setting not protect him? If you have it set to green you should not be able to do anything that makes you a suspect. I have no idea. I'm basically going to be turning safetys off whenever I log in so I paid very little attention to how they work. ;)
Elevorot Psykotic Meat Fatal Ascension 1	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:47:00 - [30] - Quote Picture if you will: Two buddies, lets call them Steve and James, see a guy robbing a bank. James jumps on the robber, pinning him to the ground. Steve jumps on James, adding weight to make sure the criminal doesn't escape. Ten random civilians pull out guns and shoot Steve. Justice is served. Working as intended.
FluffyDice Psykotic Meat Fatal Ascension 241	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:50:00 - [31] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: Why did the safety setting not protect him? If you have it set to green you should not be able to do anything that makes you a suspect. I don't know. Maybe he's ******** and switched it off. Either way I'm done with this topic. Thanks for helping me to understand the mechanics better. I think the design could use a little work but it is definitely a step in the right direction as far as removing invulnerable neutral assistance.
Pohbis 110	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:50:00 - [32] - Quote FluffyDice wrote: Oh definitely. Safe neutral assistance should never be in the game. I just think a solution which makes the repper/booster a free for all target is a poor one. I do agree that the 'suspect' solution could use refinement. Somehow, it's just not possible atm to have the repper tagged for all the limited engagements the receiver is involved in. If the suspect flag wasn't there, CCP would simply have swapped one "neutral" exploit for another. So for now, we have to live with it. And hey, opening more people up to pew pew isn't the worst thing
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. 1210	Posted - 2012.12.04 16:51:00 - [33] - Quote Doddy wrote: Ravnik wrote: FluffyDice wrote: >I shoot suspect, suspect able to shoot me in return. >I receive help, suspect able to shoot my help. Seems more logical and less confusing than: >I shoot suspect, suspect able to shoot me in return. >I receive help, help is now able to be shot by everyone. But hey that's just me. Thanks for explaining the mechanics to me anyways. I guess the problem is if you shoot suspect, he shoots you, someone boosts you, then suspect has 2 ships to deal with. Someone then reps you both, suspect now has 3 targets to deal with. It could soon spiral out of control and end up as a big gank. The new mechanics is to stop this happening. Except they can all shoot the suspect then rep each other freely to start with. Yeah, it would seem a better game behavior would be: If I assist someone I inherent all their flags, suspect, criminal, and all limited engagement flags. That way if you shoot a suspect and I help you, I get a limited engagement vs the suspect too. Except in the case of helping someone at war. There a full suspect flag would be in order. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/
Gizznitt Malikite Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 778	Posted - 2012.12.04 17:02:00 - [34] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: Doddy wrote: Ravnik wrote: FluffyDice wrote: >I shoot suspect, suspect able to shoot me in return. >I receive help, suspect able to shoot my help. Seems more logical and less confusing than: >I shoot suspect, suspect able to shoot me in return. >I receive help, help is now able to be shot by everyone. But hey that's just me. Thanks for explaining the mechanics to me anyways. I guess the problem is if you shoot suspect, he shoots you, someone boosts you, then suspect has 2 ships to deal with. Someone then reps you both, suspect now has 3 targets to deal with. It could soon spiral out of control and end up as a big gank. The new mechanics is to stop this happening. Except they can all shoot the suspect then rep each other freely to start with. Yeah, it would seem a better game behavior would be: If I assist someone I inherent all their flags, suspect, criminal, and all limited engagement flags. That way if you shoot a suspect and I help you, I get a limited engagement vs the suspect too. Except in the case of helping someone at war. There a full suspect flag would be in order. But then you have the never ending chain of LE's that CCP is trying to get away from: Old Crime watch: I shoot A. A shoots back. B reps me, A can shoot B. C reps B, A can shoot B. and on and on into some twisted pretzels. Now: I shoot A. A shoots back. B reps me, and can be shot by everyone.... Or B shoots A, A can shoot B. B can then rep me without going suspect as long as I don't shoot someone else... This is fair, even if it's slightly less intuitive. It doesn't chain out of control into awkward situations, and it keeps all flags 1 to 1. Finally, use the safety setting if you are afraid of going suspect.... (and let your friend die.... ) No more cowardly logistics... Logi's are now balls-to-the-walls committed to a fight!!!
Sentamon 298	Posted - 2012.12.04 17:18:00 - [35] - Quote Safeties OFF. Shoot everyone. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
LHA Tarawa Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 89	Posted - 2012.12.04 17:56:00 - [36] - Quote So let's say.... A and B are at war. C is neutral rep alt. A and B start shooting each other. C reps B. A and B are not in a "limited engagement", right? So C is or is not flagged as suspect for remote repping? Is C still flagged for A's corp to shoot? I thought they got rid of the entity to entity flags in favor of universal flags? Who can shoot at C in this case? No one? A's corp/alliance? Anyone?
Dark Assassin15 Failed Diplomacy 99	Posted - 2012.12.04 18:00:00 - [37] - Quote This Thread Deserves a "Working as intended" reply. Make it so #1 [img]http://www.invokemethod.com/repo/failedsig.png[/img]
Elevorot Psykotic Meat Fatal Ascension 4	Posted - 2012.12.05 01:49:00 - [38] - Quote LHA Tarawa wrote: So let's say.... A and B are at war. C is neutral rep alt. A and B start shooting each other. C reps B. A and B are not in a "limited engagement", right? So C is or is not flagged as suspect for remote repping? Is C still flagged for A's corp to shoot? I thought they got rid of the entity to entity flags in favor of universal flags? Who can shoot at C in this case? No one? A's corp/alliance? Anyone? The point of this thread is that this pertains to hunting criminals, not warfare. In a wartime scenario, neutral assistance does and should flag involved parties as targets. In the hunting of criminals, it seems awkward at best that supporting in the destruction of a suspected criminal would in turn make you a criminal. This is especially true in Jita, where massive firepower often destroys craft before everyone can get a shot off. If you're in a small fleet camping an undock or gate, and have assistance modules like remote sensor boosters, suddenly you can find yourself a target of everyone for the simple fact that you didn't get a shot off on a target and boosted a friend. I guess CCP is trying to promote the 'lone gunslinger' image when it comes to taking down criminals as opposed to enforcing a semblance of justice here.
Angeal MacNova 9th Fleet-Seraphins 41	Posted - 2012.12.05 01:57:00 - [39] - Quote I could be mistaken but.... If you and the logi were in a fleet together and you engage a suspect, the suspect engages back, doesn't that mean that your logi partner is now open to engagement and can thus come to your aid against the suspect without being flagged? After all, if the logi is set up for just boosting and has no offensive capabilities, it would be impossible for this person to engage the suspect first before giving aid to the ally.
Souisa WESCORP 2.0 58	Posted - 2012.12.05 01:58:00 - [40] - Quote holy **** these engagement rules have become over complicated....? o/

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