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Missile Nerf: Too much or Too Little?

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BinaryData Kleinrock Heavy Industries Kleinrock Group 9	Posted - 2012.12.04 22:36:00 - [1] - Quote So, I've been hoppin' in my tengu, loki, legion, and proteus, checking out different ranges. So far, this is what I've seen... With a standard Solo C3 fit, I get this Tengu - 66km MAX. - 3 to 6km for the "get up to speed" crap. Loki - 80km Legion - 82km Proteus - Lets be serious, anyone who flies a proteus with rails for PvE should be podded so I won't post it. Massive nerf to the fitting of the tengu, 20% range nerf? 20% damage nerf? I lost 90 dps (WITH Officer mods), and I lost over 45km range. So the question that I'm wondering is, why is the tengu so far behind now? Did the nerf it too hard, enough or too little? Frankly, I've got damn near max tengu skills, and I lost this much? I mean, really CCP, do you not test ****?
Pyre leFay The Scope Gallente Federation 44	Posted - 2012.12.04 22:41:00 - [2] - Quote lets see those range numbers when falloff and degradation of dps is set to the nominal distance not just max poke distance.
Fractal Muse Dead's Prostitutes Test Friends Please Ignore 54	Posted - 2012.12.04 22:43:00 - [3] - Quote BinaryData wrote: So, I've been hoppin' in my tengu, loki, legion, and proteus, checking out different ranges. So far, this is what I've seen... With a standard Solo C3 fit, I get this Tengu - 66km MAX. - 3 to 6km for the "get up to speed" crap. Loki - 80km Legion - 82km Proteus - Lets be serious, anyone who flies a proteus with rails for PvE should be podded so I won't post it. Massive nerf to the fitting of the tengu, 20% range nerf? 20% damage nerf? I lost 90 dps (WITH Officer mods), and I lost over 45km range. So the question that I'm wondering is, why is the tengu so far behind now? Did the nerf it too hard, enough or too little? Frankly, I've got damn near max tengu skills, and I lost this much? I mean, really CCP, do you not test ****? Please, at least, include the basic fits for these numbers. What weapons with the tengu? what dps? What weapons with the loki? what dps? What weapons with the legion? what dps?
BinaryData Kleinrock Heavy Industries Kleinrock Group 9	Posted - 2012.12.04 22:46:00 - [4] - Quote Fractal Muse wrote: BinaryData wrote: So, I've been hoppin' in my tengu, loki, legion, and proteus, checking out different ranges. So far, this is what I've seen... With a standard Solo C3 fit, I get this Tengu - 66km MAX. - 3 to 6km for the "get up to speed" crap. Loki - 80km Legion - 82km Proteus - Lets be serious, anyone who flies a proteus with rails for PvE should be podded so I won't post it. Massive nerf to the fitting of the tengu, 20% range nerf? 20% damage nerf? I lost 90 dps (WITH Officer mods), and I lost over 45km range. So the question that I'm wondering is, why is the tengu so far behind now? Did the nerf it too hard, enough or too little? Frankly, I've got damn near max tengu skills, and I lost this much? I mean, really CCP, do you not test ****? Please, at least, include the basic fits for these numbers. What weapons with the tengu? what dps? What weapons with the loki? what dps? What weapons with the legion? what dps? That is what I'm doing now. EVE keeps crashing on me everytime I try and load Jita up. -.- I'll post it all in the next twenty minutes.
Xpaulusx Naari LLC 110	Posted - 2012.12.04 22:49:00 - [5] - Quote Lets face it, Between the HM & ECM nerf, Caldari got curb stomped with this patch, im still watching Falcon prices tank in jita. New Player retention is important to our community.
Sal Trent Black Carbon Industries The Paganism Alliance 1	Posted - 2012.12.04 23:10:00 - [6] - Quote Xpaulusx wrote: Lets face it, Between the HM & ECM nerf, Caldari got curb stomped with this patch, im still watching Falcon prices tank in jita. Pritty much that....I now have to cross train ammar soner then I wanted. Also I am wating just to see how many caldari toons go up for sale in the comming days/weeks and how much the B.O. price tanks CCP talks of "balancing" they just screwed over an entire race in a single patch...quite ironic actualy
Jack Miton Aperture Harmonics K162 903	Posted - 2012.12.04 23:28:00 - [7] - Quote show me a legion/loki fit that can put out more DPS at 70km than a tengu and I'll unsub all my accounts and give you all my stuff. PS: your tengu fit is HORRIBLE.
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 611	Posted - 2012.12.04 23:57:00 - [8] - Quote Xpaulusx wrote: Lets face it, Between the HM & ECM nerf, Caldari got curb stomped with this patch, im still watching Falcon prices tank in jita. Oh dear god...what will all the 'solo' pvp falcon alts do?!??!!? Think of the children! *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
Rroff The Xenodus Initiative. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 67	Posted - 2012.12.05 00:04:00 - [9] - Quote Load up faction ammo and you get most of the range back without too bad a dps loss on HML.
MItchell Jensen Gravit Negotii 2	Posted - 2012.12.05 00:07:00 - [10] - Quote Caldari pilots got shafted bigtime. I'm very dissapointed that I'm going to have to train over to Amaar just to keep myself alive.

Lili Lu 608	Posted - 2012.12.05 00:12:00 - [11] - Quote OP, some things I think you missed with the missile changes. Fury did indeed get a range nerf beyond that of base HMs. That was intended. It more mirrors turret high damage ammo, which has much less range. Also, you probably don't have to knock off 3-6km off of range due to acceleration and flight path of missiles anymore. They stated they reworked the programming for missile flight. Apparenty the displayed range will pretty much be equal to the in-game performance of the missile. Also, coming are range and explosion parameters with TC and TE for missiles. You will likely be able to get your former range back. Of course there will be fitting choices to be made that may necessitate tradeoffs from your damage mod stacking or tank mods. But turret boats have had to do this for many years. Welcome to the club. Essentially, you will have to reevaluate your fittings with all the changes that have come and the additional ones to come. Not such a bad thing really. Tengus had no downsides for WH stuff and other tech IIIs had none of their advantages. That all is subject to change. CCP did not want Tengus and Drakes Online anymore. But that does not mean that Tengus and Drakes will no longer be flown. They just won't be so obviously better anymore.
Kitty Bear Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance 151	Posted - 2012.12.05 00:13:00 - [12] - Quote the poor lowly Cerberus already marginalised by the Tengu recieved a personal introduction to Bubba and his friends.
Rasmier Endless Winter Night Rising Phoenix Alliance 2	Posted - 2012.12.05 00:21:00 - [13] - Quote all concidered, caldari did not have an advantage.....they were able to tank in wormhole space much better due tothier ability to passive tank, however, the trade off is that our dps is much less than the other races, also we have an outragous 10 second loading time for our puny missle bays. If CCP wants to "Balance" the races, then increase our dps, lower our range, and take our weapon re-loading time down to mirror what the other races have on thier ships.
lovatus Universal Conflict 1	Posted - 2012.12.05 00:22:00 - [14] - Quote the people that got hit hard in this are the low sp caldari mission runners, ive spent hours scratching my head over how to make my drake flyable again and so far every time ive flown it today ive had to run from guristas cruisers simply because i cant break the tank wheras pre release i was popping them in four volleys. maybe i should switch to rails.
Pyre leFay The Scope Gallente Federation 49	Posted - 2012.12.05 00:43:00 - [15] - Quote lovatus wrote: the people that got hit hard in this are the low sp caldari mission runners, ive spent hours scratching my head over how to make my drake flyable again and so far every time ive flown it today ive had to run from guristas cruisers simply because i cant break the tank wheras pre release i was popping them in four volleys. maybe i should switch to rails. Depends on the missile you were using. I bet you were using Fury for damage... yet it now has a much larger explosion radius. 241m base compared to cruisers that are in the 130m range. Use t1, faction or precision. You don't do squat with fury on small targets.
lovatus Universal Conflict 1	Posted - 2012.12.05 00:48:00 - [16] - Quote Pyre leFay wrote: lovatus wrote: the people that got hit hard in this are the low sp caldari mission runners, ive spent hours scratching my head over how to make my drake flyable again and so far every time ive flown it today ive had to run from guristas cruisers simply because i cant break the tank wheras pre release i was popping them in four volleys. maybe i should switch to rails. Depends on the missile you were using. I bet you were using Fury for damage... yet it now has a much larger explosion radius. 241m base compared to cruisers that are in the 130m range. Use t1, faction or precision. You don't do squat with fury on small targets. t1 did nothing, precision did nothing. faction id end up running missions at a loss, that besides i though furies were meant to deal high damage against large targets?
BinaryData Kleinrock Heavy Industries Kleinrock Group 9	Posted - 2012.12.05 01:59:00 - [17] - Quote Jack Miton wrote: show me a legion/loki fit that can put out more DPS at 70km than a tengu and I'll unsub all my accounts and give you all my stuff. PS: your tengu fit is HORRIBLE. That isn't what I said at all. I said they have a longer range. You failed to read the post properly, and that doesn't surprise me. Regardless if you can constantly hit something at 70km or farther, you're still hitting a target, and dealing damage, while missiles just "fizzle" out. Also, Mr. K162 Alliance dude, post a better one that can solo up to C4's and not have issues. This is my solo C2/C3. I've been jumped by a Tengu, Proteus, and Hound, I survived it, and beat the proteus down into low armor, tengu fled when the Falcon showed up, and the Hound died in 3 vollies. So, with that said, post a better one, or sit down & shut up. I wasn't asking for your opinion on my fit, nor was it needed. I'm not impressed with how CCP handled it. The tengu was a nice ship before, granted I did feel the need to nerf it was right, but nerfing it by 40km range was a bit harsh. As someone who has flown with White Noise. and NCdot, I know that the Tengu was powerful in fleet fights, even in WH RR fleets they are powerful as sht. Personally, I think the drake should have been affected more by the change than the tengu. If your ship goes boom, you lose skill points, and an extremely expensive ship. Even a T2 Fit will still run you 700m, give or take 100m. Unlike the drake that costs 70m in total with fittings. Love the "balance" CCP. @ Lili Lu I know that with new patches, fit changes need to be done, but lets face it, 40km range nerf is a bit excessive. I can't argue the fact on Tengus having a down side. But they are a bit crap solo, especially against a proteus or loki. Even now with this change, the tengu is at a major disadvantage for the PvP. I mean, HAMs do half the range now, and do 10x the damage. It would be by far better, to buff the tank, and just speed tank it. You're arguing that caldari is the most used race out there, I'd have to disagree with that. Caldari have a few powerful ships, Falcon, Widow, Tengu, and Drake, but look at Gallente. They suck balls, they have some of the shittiest ships out there. Last I checked, you don't see a 200man fleet of Megathrons, Hyperions, Myrmidons, or even Dominix's. But you see 700 man Drake fleets. I won't lie, the game needs a massive balance done to it, but the way CCP approached, as they always do, is nerf the *** out of it, until its useless beyond belief. Look at titans, and specifically the Leviathan & Phoenix, how long has the explosion velocity been out ran by any ship in the game? If you can beat 20m/s you can out run a Cit Torp. Nuff said. Also, you can say the same about Gallente Carriers, Supercarriers, and Titans. As of right now, the Avatar & Erebus are the most used Titans in the game. The Nyx was the most used & sought after supercap. Goons noticed how nearly 30% of the EVE Population relied upon Oxygen Isotopes, hence the Ice Interdiction. Each race has their powerful ships, as proven by NCdot, Zealots are GOOD counters to Drakes. A 10% nerf to HM Range, and a 15% nerf to damage would have sufficed, and made their "trajectories" Harder to maneuver.
Tarn Kugisa Infinite Covenant Tribal Band 181	Posted - 2012.12.05 02:02:00 - [18] - Quote Sal Trent wrote: Xpaulusx wrote: Lets face it, Between the HM & ECM nerf, Caldari got curb stomped with this patch, im still watching Falcon prices tank in jita. Pritty much that....I now have to cross train ammar soner then I wanted. Also I am wating just to see how many caldari toons go up for sale in the comming days/weeks and how much the B.O. price tanks CCP talks of "balancing" they just screwed over an entire race in a single patch...quite ironic actualy not entirely Widow is still an awesome ship and the only fun black ops also, the tengu uses a MEDIUM size ship weapon system, they brought it down to be in line with everything else. Now if you want 100KM range AND 100% damage projection you need cruise missiles I Endorse this Product and/or Service Source Recorder-esque tool for EVE
Tarn Kugisa Infinite Covenant Tribal Band 181	Posted - 2012.12.05 02:04:00 - [19] - Quote MItchell Jensen wrote: Caldari pilots got shafted bigtime. I'm very dissapointed that I'm going to have to train over to Amaar just to keep myself alive. Only in medium weapon systems cruises are still OK, although they could use a bit of a DPS buff I Endorse this Product and/or Service Source Recorder-esque tool for EVE
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1827	Posted - 2012.12.05 02:06:00 - [20] - Quote Tarn Kugisa wrote: MItchell Jensen wrote: Caldari pilots got shafted bigtime. I'm very dissapointed that I'm going to have to train over to Amaar just to keep myself alive. Only in medium weapon systems cruises are still OK, although they could use a bit of a DPS buff Cruise missiles just feel lacking somehow. I mean sure you can push them to 250km, but who needs that? I mean 100km is already damn far... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm

Kitty Bear Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance 153	Posted - 2012.12.05 03:07:00 - [21] - Quote Lili Lu wrote: Also, you probably don't have to knock off 3-6km off of range due to acceleration and flight path of missiles anymore. They stated they reworked the programming for missile flight. Apparenty the displayed range will pretty much be equal to the in-game performance of the missile. Apparently seems to be the key word. Popup displays 53km (down from 85km) shoot at rat at >50km no damage approach and started to do damage at <48km 25% reduction should have left me with a range of 60ish km, what i get is >37.5% reduction
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1827	Posted - 2012.12.05 03:19:00 - [22] - Quote Kitty Bear wrote: Lili Lu wrote: Also, you probably don't have to knock off 3-6km off of range due to acceleration and flight path of missiles anymore. They stated they reworked the programming for missile flight. Apparenty the displayed range will pretty much be equal to the in-game performance of the missile. Apparently seems to be the key word. Popup displays 53km (down from 85km) shoot at rat at >50km no damage approach and started to do damage at <48km 25% reduction should have left me with a range of 60ish km, what i get is >37.5% reduction The rat is also moving. So if you shot at a POS 50 km away that would work but well... Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm
baltec1 Bat Country 3031	Posted - 2012.12.05 03:30:00 - [23] - Quote My heart bleeds for the people angry over not getting battleship range and firepower from a cruiser.
RangerGord Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services The Possum Lodge 12	Posted - 2012.12.05 03:34:00 - [24] - Quote Not sure what exact numbers the OP was looking at, but I did the calculations with my Nighthawk and my Tengu, it comes out to 40% range and 30% dmg nerf... so seems to me it went a little overboard. (T2 launchers and T2 missiles) Either that or CCP doesn't want anyone using T2 Heavy Missiles anymore. Yes I can get 'most' of the range back by switching to faction missiles, but i'm still 15-20% down in dmg for double to quadruple the cost in ammo.
Frostys Virpio Caldari Provisions Caldari State 102	Posted - 2012.12.05 03:34:00 - [25] - Quote The damage nerf is felt for a l;ow skilled drake L3 runner. The salvo definately went down and seem to be much more inconsistant. Not sure where this comes from but some ship really do require more hits to go boom. The few L3 I did were not that much more painfull. Might change depending on which one I get I guess.
Phi Nupe Sunstar Business Ventures Inc. 0	Posted - 2012.12.05 03:40:00 - [26] - Quote baltec1 wrote: My heart bleeds for the people angry over not getting battleship range and firepower from a cruiser. Battleship range from any medium weapon system was indeed something that needed to be brought closer in line with the other three races medium weapon systems.
Vertisce Soritenshi Tactical Vendor of Services and Goods Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage 1863	Posted - 2012.12.05 03:52:00 - [27] - Quote This makes me SO glad I trained Amarr and beams and am currently working on Gallente and hybrids. EVE is not about PvP.-á EVE is about the SANDBOX!
stoicfaux 1815	Posted - 2012.12.05 03:57:00 - [28] - Quote Meh, pop in two missile speed rigs and you're back up to <92km range with Fury (or 81.4km with one speed rig.) Slap on a rigor and/or a TP to compensate. On the down side, the raw DPS drops from 784 to 701, an 11% drop. By comparison a Rage HAM Tengu with 2x Speed II rigs is looking at <35.6km of range. Blech. You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head. Feature Request: -áDamnation Ship Codpiece-áfor the NeX store.
Arya Greywolf Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 28	Posted - 2012.12.05 04:17:00 - [29] - Quote BinaryData wrote: Massive nerf to the fitting of the tengu, 20% range nerf? 20% damage nerf? I lost 90 dps (WITH Officer mods), and I lost over 45km range. So the question that I'm wondering is, why is the tengu so far behind now? Did the nerf it too hard, enough or too little? Frankly, I've got damn near max tengu skills, and I lost this much? I mean, really CCP, do you not test ****? You're seriously overstating this nerf. You need to understand that heavy missiles range and damage to begin with was above and beyond any other cruiser based class weapon. The range on the missiles was nerfed yes, but when HM hit, they hit for full damage at any "in range" distance. I think you need to go back to "EFT Warrioring" and realize this when you start talking about the Loki or Legion, or anyone other medium weapon. 20% nerf is absolutely overstating what really happened. HM damage needed to be toned down just a bit to fit with their great range. It is actually more like ~10% damage nerf. Read over your numbers again. I just did my drake numbers and before patch my ratting drake with 7 HML IIs and 4 BCU IIs did ~547 dps. With the new patch it sits at around ~502 dps. For the range on these weapons this is hardly a rough nerf and it was necessary. Let me tell you that the nerf was so inconsequential that major coalitions and alliances will continue to use blob drakes because they are still that effective. In addition, you're missing a huge BUFF to HAMs. They are a great close range weapon now. Please go read Fozzie's devblogs about the changes because I'm too lazy to go find them for you. The changes were well thought out and necessary. Also Lili Lu's reply was basically "/thread."
Tyberius Franklin Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 384	Posted - 2012.12.05 04:29:00 - [30] - Quote RangerGord wrote: Not sure what exact numbers the OP was looking at, but I did the calculations with my Nighthawk and my Tengu, it comes out to 40% range and 30% dmg nerf... so seems to me it went a little overboard. (T2 launchers and T2 missiles) Either that or CCP doesn't want anyone using T2 Heavy Missiles anymore. Yes I can get 'most' of the range back by switching to faction missiles, but i'm still 15-20% down in dmg for double to quadruple the cost in ammo. 25% nerf is not a global number. Is is the approximate nerf to T1 and by extension faction missiles. Fury has an additional 25% reduction from that new range. The raw DPS nerf ended up being abit less than 10% but the applied damage being lowered due to increased explosion radius and reduced explosion velocity.



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