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baltec1
84
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Posted - 2011.10.10 08:43:00 -
[91] - Quote
m0cking bird wrote:
Still it seems most pilots in eve don't want INSANE tracking. Example: Medium turrets being able to track frigates. I know because I've suggested it and many don't like the idea. That's the kind of tracking increase he would need to do what he's on about (100% or more and lower signature resolution I would assume, without really checking)...
Not at all.
To get great tracking for blasters at very close range you can flip the way tracking works. The closer you get to a blaster, the better it will track so in effect, you will get the same ability to track your targets no matter the range with the drawback of having limited range. This would give blasters its unique roll, make them good at it but at the same time wont make then have crazy tracking at the longer ranges.
It would result in a close range ship that only hurt you more the closer you get. |

Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
25
|
Posted - 2011.10.10 08:45:00 -
[92] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Forums tried to eat my post. C&P ftw. Base stats pulled from EveWiki for 3 comparable BS-sized close range weapons. They all have the same RoF (7.875sec). Given the same target flying in indentical fixed orbits around a ship with identical bonuses/skills, one with a Neutron Blaster II, an second with an 800mm Repeating Artillery II, and a third with a Mega Pulse Laser II. optimal | falloff | tracking | DamMod | Neutron II | 7.2km | 10km | .0433 rad/s | 4.2 | Mega Pulse II | 24km | 8km | .03375 rad/s | 3.6 | 800mm Rpt II | 4.8km | 19.2km | .0432 rad/s | 3.234 | the blaster will hit more frequently until it gets well out into falloff. Lasers have the longest total engagement range in this group, and will apply effective dps from early on until the target begins to out track their guns. Seems like large ACs have the same tracking as its comparable blaster. But they have the worst damage multiplier of the 3. The only imbalance I see is the near identical tracking between AC and blaster. Gimp AC tracking, buff blaster tracking, or some combination of the two. Since tracking is less affected when at range, and AC have long falloff, I would buff blaster tracking by about .01 to .053.
I hate doing this but...
Not to long ago I tried to explain ammo differences to a person so I have some screenshots I'll provide.
With guns, looking at just the base info on them won't give you a clear enough picture.
With AC's I pretty much ignore long-ranged ammo. I don't hit well when in optimal due to tracking and the penalties from using short-ranged ammo are very trivial with the falloff remaining unaffected.
The reverse is true with hybrids that live in optimal. Using Anti-matter has a ghastly effect on your ability to deliver damage cleanly, using different ammo can compensate for this - but such details aren't often provided. Mostly "hearsay" and the like.
The following was part of an answer I put together on the subject to someone - it was based on a vexor fit they wanted to use for DPS at gate-camp situations.
The range 7.5km was selected as a starting range that "makes sense" for a gate fight so that's what's shown with these little guns on this little ship.
These are damage analysis screenshots are from EVEHQ. I like the tool but beyond that, I haven't found a better breakout of such analysis info yet.
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p301/kothall/VexorDamagebyAmmo-Antimatter.jpg http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p301/kothall/VexorDamagebyAmmo-Lead.jpg http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p301/kothall/VexorDamagebyAmmo-Iridium.jpg
I highlighted areas on it when I did the shots so it would be easier to see the more salient points on the effects of ammo but they're clear enough to see fully. It's based upon my skills (roughly 13.8 mill SP in gunnery) which aren't that trivial but aren't "all 5's".
You would see NOTHING like those shifts using short-ranged ammo in equivalent AC's due to the differences in falloff vs optimal focus.
I use these weapons systems. I know what effects work which ways and I also know what I actually can and cannot deliver vs what EFT and other such tools show.
AC's track better yet I hit tracking issues if things get too close so I keep them "in falloff". Blasters have weaker tracking and require things to be really close. You'd better have a web to deliver decently with them using higher-end ammo.
As others have stated - blasters work well *IF* you can get to use them to their full potential. The problem being you don't get those opportunities all that often due to how they work and, often, how they are loaded. |

Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
0
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Posted - 2011.10.10 08:54:00 -
[93] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Forums tried to eat my post. C&P ftw. Base stats pulled from EveWiki for 3 comparable BS-sized close range weapons. They all have the same RoF (7.875sec). Given the same target flying in indentical fixed orbits around a ship with identical bonuses/skills, one with a Neutron Blaster II, an second with an 800mm Repeating Artillery II, and a third with a Mega Pulse Laser II. optimal | falloff | tracking | DamMod | Neutron II | 7.2km | 10km | .0433 rad/s | 4.2 | Mega Pulse II | 24km | 8km | .03375 rad/s | 3.6 | 800mm Rpt II | 4.8km | 19.2km | .0432 rad/s | 3.234 | the blaster will hit more frequently until it gets well out into falloff. Lasers have the longest total engagement range in this group, and will apply effective dps from early on until the target begins to out track their guns. Seems like large ACs have the same tracking as its comparable blaster. But they have the worst damage multiplier of the 3. The only imbalance I see is the near identical tracking between AC and blaster. Gimp AC tracking, buff blaster tracking, or some combination of the two. Since tracking is less affected when at range, and AC have long falloff, I would buff blaster tracking by about .01 to .053.
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Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
0
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Posted - 2011.10.10 09:13:00 -
[94] - Quote
There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode |

Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
72
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Posted - 2011.10.10 09:22:00 -
[95] - Quote
Cpt Fina wrote:Soldarius wrote: I would buff blaster tracking by about .01 to .053. Webbed targets now fly 300% faster than they used to do and you promote a 1% tracking increase? Balancing the game according to spreadsheet-symmetry is thw wrong way to do it imo. We have to ask ourselves what we want blasters, ACs and pulses to do, what roles they should fill and then work towards that while accepting that if some guns excell in one area they might, or should, rather suck in another.
oh I surely know what I want from blasters: shotguns shooting nuclear warheads, but unable to scratch paint at 10km+ [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |

Soldarius
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
9
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Posted - 2011.10.10 10:35:00 -
[96] - Quote
Cpt Fina wrote:Soldarius wrote: I would buff blaster tracking by about .01 to .053. Webbed targets now fly 300% faster than they used to do and you promote a 1% tracking increase? Balancing the game according to spreadsheet-symmetry is thw wrong way to do it imo. We have to ask ourselves what we want blasters, ACs and pulses to do, what roles they should fill and then work towards that while accepting that if some guns excell in one area they might, or should, rather suck in another.
You quit school after 4th grade or something?
.043 + .01 = .053, or a 23.26% increase. Learn math. Damn, that's not even algebra. Barely prealgebra. Decimals and percentages along with a bit of division.
I laid those stats out in spreadsheet style to make the comparisons easier to see/visualize. Since blasters are meant to be extremely short range high dps weapons, they should have better tracking than autocannons. This will also help them to hit orbiting targets at their optimal.
Hell, light electron blasters can't even hit a BS orbiting at 4000m for more than about 90% of the time. That is seriously screwed up. "How do you kill that which has no life?" |

ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers
12
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Posted - 2011.10.10 13:21:00 -
[97] - Quote
The gallente are coming back with Vengence |

m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2011.10.10 13:37:00 -
[98] - Quote
300%? Changes to stasis webifier, never effected tracking that severely. The fact that someone pulled out those random figures to substantiate their argument, is a joke.
With all that said. This is a massively multi-player game. Weapon systems that only operate @ short distances are not very viable in real world naval, air and mechanized combat. Why does it make sense in space? The whole concept is flawed. Blasters were not created to fill a niche (solo). They fell into that niche, because blasters are terrible most everywhere else.
Blasters have always been the way they are now since late 2007. Auto-cannons were in fact Superior and gave much better options to a pilot. While blasters were liner and to reliant on one ewar module (stasis webifier). Everything else could have changed, but as long as they had that 90%. It would masked how stagnate the concept of close range pvp is and the inability of the weapon system to adapt to changing game-play environment.
However, this does not apply to the frigate class, for the most part. Classes of ships cruiser and above have broader operational ranges. Pvp within this broader spectrum is more dynamic.
Close-range pvp seems more suited to the frigates. Where there's only slight differences in the operational ranges of weapon systems. Effectively having to apply damage under 9 kilometers, for the most part (warp scrambler range).
Cruisers and upwards are on a different, massive scale. Big difference compared to a frigates engagement envelope. |

Cambarus
Clearly Compensating
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.10 16:43:00 -
[99] - Quote
m0cking bird wrote:300%? Changes to stasis webifier, never effected tracking that severely. The fact that someone pulled out those random figures to substantiate their argument, is a joke. Webs used to slow you down by 90%. Now they slow you down by 60%. You used to be hitting 10% of your top speed when webbed, now you move at 40% of your top speed, which is a 300% increase over what it used to be. His numbers are most certainly not random.
m0cking bird wrote: With all that said. This is a massively multi-player game. Weapon systems that only operate @ short distances are not very viable in real world naval, air and mechanized combat. Why does it make sense in space? The whole concept is flawed. Blasters were not created to fill a niche (solo). They fell into that niche, because blasters are terrible most everywhere else.
This much is true, but then, eve is a game, not real life. The idea of close-range-high-damage weapons may not work well in the real world, but in gaming it makes sense.
Blasters have always been the way they are now since late 2007. Auto-cannons were in fact Superior and gave much better options to a pilot. While blasters were liner and to reliant on one ewar module (stasis webifier). Everything else could have changed, but as long as they had that 90%. It would masked how stagnate the concept of close range pvp is and the inability of the weapon system to adapt to changing game-play environment.
Soldarius wrote: You quit school after 4th grade or something?
.043 + .01 = .053, or a 23.26% increase. Learn math. Damn, that's not even algebra. Barely prealgebra. Decimals and percentages along with a bit of division.
They still need some more damage, maybe somewhere in the realm of 10-15%. Also, just throwing this out there, but when CCP buffed pulses (directly, not referring to the fact that they shifted the metagame over to heavily favour pulses) they upped their tracking by 25%. Asking for a 23% buff to blaster tracking, when they're the guns with the highest need for tracking in the game, is an insult.
Also I approve of what grimpack said, we need blasters that melt faces at close ranges but can't do anything past web range (more damage less falloff kthanks) |

Cpt Fina
The Tuskers
25
|
Posted - 2011.10.10 20:59:00 -
[100] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Cpt Fina wrote:Soldarius wrote: I would buff blaster tracking by about .01 to .053. Webbed targets now fly 300% faster than they used to do and you promote a 1% tracking increase? Balancing the game according to spreadsheet-symmetry is thw wrong way to do it imo. We have to ask ourselves what we want blasters, ACs and pulses to do, what roles they should fill and then work towards that while accepting that if some guns excell in one area they might, or should, rather suck in another. You quit school after 4th grade or something? .043 + .01 = .053, or a 23.26% increase. Learn math. Damn, that's not even algebra. Barely prealgebra. Decimals and percentages along with a bit of division. I laid those stats out in spreadsheet style to make the comparisons easier to see/visualize. Since blasters are meant to be extremely short range high dps weapons, they should have better tracking than autocannons. This will also help them to hit orbiting targets at their optimal. Hell, light electron blasters can't even hit a BS orbiting at 4000m for more than about 90% of the time. That is seriously screwed up.
My misstake, 0.01 =/ 1%.
Still, webbed targets now fly 300% faster than before GÇô your specification of how much we should increase tracking is meaningless if blasters still can't perform in the scenario that they are supposed to perform. I think you way of approaching the isue is bad. We can't start to argue about wether we should increase tracking 23, 24 or 25% before we even know what they are supposed to do.
Who cares how well ACs, lsers and blasters track and reach in relation to eachother. That's totally irrelevant as long as they do what they are suppposed to. You might think that I quit school after 4rth grade but you're the one that's stuck with a fourth graders mentality "weee! Jimmy got more icecream than I did".
Grimpak wrote: oh I surely know what I want from blasters: shotguns shooting nuclear warheads, but unable to scratch paint at 10km+
I totally agree with this vision and I believe this is how blasters traditionally have been considered ought to function by the community. I would even go so far to say that blasters might need a range decrease to compensate for the dps they should be dealing.
m0cking bird wrote: 300%? Changes to stasis webifier, never effected tracking that severely. The fact that someone pulled out those random figures to substantiate their argument, is a joke.
See cambarus response. Webbed targets now fly 300% faster without CCP improving the weaponsystem that relied on targets being webbed at 90%.
Judging from the rest of your posting you want to make blasters more like lasers and ACs in the way they operate in gang-combat. Homogenizing the weaponsystems is a step towards making the game bland and uninteresting. Why should every weaponsystem work in every situation?
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m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2011.10.10 21:53:00 -
[101] - Quote
Indeed! For some reason I read base speed as something else. Anyways, you're correct.
HMMM! I'm eating the f*ck out of this turkey (thanksgiving).
The 300% increase in base velocity of ships, with 60% stasis webifier. Compared to old school 90% stasis webifier is a ancillary figure. While substantial. It's not consequential, without applying other factors. Base velocity is just part of the formula (tracking mechanics).
Any-who. Yeah! I suggest alot of things. I don't care whether they gain range or not. I'm fine with blasters as they are now. However, I am against a massive increase in blaster damage. Also, anyone who suggest blasters having even less range than they do now is ********. Having flown small electron blasters in the past (merlin) to find out for myself if tracking was a issue.
Small electron blasters is the shortest range weapon system in-game (not sure). The slightest movement from your target. Often resulted in a substantial loss of applied damage. That is less of a issue with medium electrons (Brutix), because of increased range and even less so for large electron blasters (Hyperion).
I quickly understood why most l33t Gallente pilots always tried to use higher tier blasters (never stopped using electrons on frigates for a long time though). Range and higher damage output was the reason many pilots choose neutrons over Ion and electrons... |

Cpt Fina
The Tuskers
25
|
Posted - 2011.10.10 23:22:00 -
[102] - Quote
As far as i understand most people who argue for a fix for blasters are not complaining about small blasters.
I can peronally only express myself about large blasters because I rarely use medium sized ones. |

Cambarus
Clearly Compensating
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.10 23:42:00 -
[103] - Quote
TBH less range on blasters is not a problem, as long as it's done via a reduction in falloff. Blaster optimal as it is now is a fairly good representation of what would be considered short range. It is also worth nothing that I don't think I've seen ANYONE make the argument that small blasters need fixing/changing, so your light electrons should (in theory) be unaffected by this anyway. |

m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.10 23:58:00 -
[104] - Quote
Cpt Fina wrote:As far as i understand it most people who argue for a fix for blasters are not complaining about small blasters.
I can peronally only express myself about large blasters because I rarely use medium sized ones.
I was only referencing 'Small Electron Blasters'. Because some have suggested reducing range of blasters further (medium and large blasters), which is ********. Atleast, without a 90% stasis webifier to hold a target relatively still. Damage application would suffer from slight fluctuations in range.
For example: if your optimal is 1000m and your falloff is 2000m, provided you can track. A target moving 200 - 500m from your optimal would effect your damage application significantly.
Also, unlike most. I do believe small blasters should be boosted to compensate for the unnecessary changes made to small auto-cannons. |

Cpt Fina
The Tuskers
25
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 00:17:00 -
[105] - Quote
m0cking bird wrote: I was only referencing 'Small Electron Blasters'. Because some have suggested reducing range of blasters further (medium and large blasters), which is ********. Atleast, without a 90% stasis webifier to hold a target relatively still. Damage application would suffer from slight fluctuations in range.
Just as almost noone (except from you?) is promoting a buff to small blasters very few are promoting a buff to blasters in a vacuum. People are well aware of and has expressed concerns about the viabilty of blasterhulls in this day and age.
Either you have not followed the public discourse on this subject or you are purpously trying to delegitimize this standpoint by insinuating that "we" would like to see a rangereduction without other fixes to how these ships work. |

Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
73
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 00:42:00 -
[106] - Quote
m0cking bird wrote:Because some have suggested reducing range of blasters further (medium and large blasters), which is ********.
range reduction should happen only if blasterhulls get more mobile AND if they get their damage considerably boosted.
they don't really need range. in blasters, the damage projection should be done by the ships themselves and not the weapons. That should be the counterbalance to a weapon system that should be the incontestable damage dealer of their class, of the entire game. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |

Klyst Lysander
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.10.11 19:27:00 -
[107] - Quote
Range reduction? Sure, let's make them point-blank weapons, so we can only apply damage IF our hull is intimately hugging the target's hull. |

Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
76
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 21:08:00 -
[108] - Quote
Klyst Lysander wrote:Range reduction? Sure, let's make them point-blank weapons, so we can only apply damage IF our hull is intimately hugging the target's hull.
if I can get to the target and dish the damage equivalent of several Tzar Bomba's exploding at the same time, then yeah why not? [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
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